Engine Questions

[Bill A.]

I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
need a Rotex or other "aircraft" engine and of course that's expensive. I
was also thinking of the Volksplane, which I don't like as much but it can
use a VW engine which I can find cheap and I've torn down and rebuilt a
couple of them so I'm more familiar with them.



So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
myself)?



Thanks all

Bill A.

Canoga Park, CA



PS. If anyone has a Pietenpol, Volksplane, or similar plane in the LA area I
sure would like to take a look at it.

[Jan Carlsson]

Check out the Corby Starlet nice plane.

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/selecting/kits/Corby%20Starlet%20CJ
-1.html

Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com

"Bill A." > skrev i meddelandet
ink.net...
> I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
> starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
> course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
> need a Rotex or other "aircraft" engine and of course that's expensive. I
> was also thinking of the Volksplane, which I don't like as much but it can
> use a VW engine which I can find cheap and I've torn down and rebuilt a
> couple of them so I'm more familiar with them.
>
>
>
> So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
> engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
> engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
> same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
> myself)?
>
>
>
> Thanks all
>
> Bill A.
>
> Canoga Park, CA
>
>
>
> PS. If anyone has a Pietenpol, Volksplane, or similar plane in the LA area
I
> sure would like to take a look at it.
>
>

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:17:11 GMT, "Bill A."
> wrote:

>I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
>starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
>course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
>need a Rotex or other "aircraft" engine and of course that's expensive. I
>was also thinking of the Volksplane, which I don't like as much but it can
>use a VW engine which I can find cheap and I've torn down and rebuilt a
>couple of them so I'm more familiar with them.
>
>
A Piet can be flown with LOTS of different engines. The Model A Ford
was the first engine - all 40? HP. The 50HP model B followed, and then
the Corvair.
If the Model A worked, I'm sure a 200 plus cu inch later model inline
four or six could be made to work as well. You want something with
"grunt" - lots of torque at low RPMs.
>
>So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
>engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
>engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
>same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
>myself)?
>
>
>
>Thanks all
>
>Bill A.
>
>Canoga Park, CA
>
>
>
>PS. If anyone has a Pietenpol, Volksplane, or similar plane in the LA area I
>sure would like to take a look at it.
>

[James Lloyd]

If you just need a single seat plane,a jeanie,s tennie is a good choice.

[jls]

"Bill A." > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
> starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
> course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
> need a Rotex

Rotax? Nope. Pietenpols use old Ford A-Model engines, Corvair engines,
and affordable old Continentals like the A-65 and C-85. If you are on a
tight budget in Southern California, the Pietenpol Aircamper may be the way
to go. Do a google and you'll find all kinds of Piet groups. The Piet
clan gather every summer in Brodhead, Wisconsin for a fly-in. It is said
that if you visit with them a spell will be cast over you and you'll be a
Piet-head for the rest of your life.


or other "aircraft" engine and of course that's expensive. I
> was also thinking of the Volksplane, which I don't like as much but it can
> use a VW engine which I can find cheap and I've torn down and rebuilt a
> couple of them so I'm more familiar with them.
>
>
>
> So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
> engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
> engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
> same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
> myself)?
>
>
>
> Thanks all
>
> Bill A.
>
> Canoga Park, CA
>
>
>
> PS. If anyone has a Pietenpol, Volksplane, or similar plane in the LA area
I
> sure would like to take a look at it.
>
>

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:17:11 GMT, "Bill A." >
wrote:

>So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
>engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
>engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
>same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
>myself)?

I strongly suspect you won't get enough thrust out of the VW. People have
tried them on Fly Babies and they haven't worked well at all.

Best airplanes for VWs are those which were specifically designed for them.
Ryan Young maintains a good list:

http://users.lmi.net/~ryoung/Sonerai/rant.html

He also has a ton of good information on the engines themselves at:

http://users.lmi.net/~ryoung/Sonerai/Engines.html

Ron Wanttaja

[Richard Lamb]

If you want low-n-slow, check the Texas Parasol.
Remenescent of the Pietenpol Scout, VW powered.
All aluminum construction with fabric cover.
Nice flyer too.

Check www.flash.net/~lamb01

[Bill A.]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:21:06 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:

>
>"Bill A." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
>> starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
>> course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
>> need a Rotex
>
>Rotax? Nope. Pietenpols use old Ford A-Model engines, Corvair engines,
>and affordable old Continentals like the A-65 and C-85. If you are on a
>tight budget in Southern California, the Pietenpol Aircamper may be the way
>to go. Do a google and you'll find all kinds of Piet groups. The Piet
>clan gather every summer in Brodhead, Wisconsin for a fly-in. It is said
>that if you visit with them a spell will be cast over you and you'll be a
>Piet-head for the rest of your life.

I've done a bit of searching online but I can't seem to find
any Continentals for sale that aren't already attached to
something. Where would I find some and what's the ballpark
price? Are Corvair engines still around :) with as few
Corvairs that were produced I would think the supply would be
limited (along with parts) and can you still find Ford Model
A engines any more, much less parts? What would be the most
economical, commonly used engine out there now a days?




> or other "aircraft" engine and of course that's expensive. I
>> was also thinking of the Volksplane, which I don't like as much but it can
>> use a VW engine which I can find cheap and I've torn down and rebuilt a
>> couple of them so I'm more familiar with them.
>>
>>
>>
>> So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
>> engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
>> engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
>> same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
>> myself)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks all
>>
>> Bill A.
>>
>> Canoga Park, CA
>>
>>
>>
>> PS. If anyone has a Pietenpol, Volksplane, or similar plane in the LA area
>I
>> sure would like to take a look at it.
>>
>>
>

[Richard Lamb]

"Bill A." wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:21:06 -0500, " jls" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bill A." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >> I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
> >> starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
> >> course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
> >> need a Rotex
> >
> >Rotax? Nope. Pietenpols use old Ford A-Model engines, Corvair engines,
> >and affordable old Continentals like the A-65 and C-85. If you are on a
> >tight budget in Southern California, the Pietenpol Aircamper may be the way
> >to go. Do a google and you'll find all kinds of Piet groups. The Piet
> >clan gather every summer in Brodhead, Wisconsin for a fly-in. It is said
> >that if you visit with them a spell will be cast over you and you'll be a
> >Piet-head for the rest of your life.
>
> I've done a bit of searching online but I can't seem to find
> any Continentals for sale that aren't already attached to
> something. Where would I find some and what's the ballpark
> price? Are Corvair engines still around :) with as few
> Corvairs that were produced I would think the supply would be
> limited (along with parts) and can you still find Ford Model
> A engines any more, much less parts? What would be the most
> economical, commonly used engine out there now a days?
>

I fly a VW.
But it won't swing enough prop to fly an Air Camper.


The Piet Air Camper was designed around the Ford engine.
The plane needs that mass of metal up front to balance properly.

With a lighter, a longer mount is needed to keep the plane in balance.
Longer noses usually mean less yaw stability.

A Contenental A-65 - A-85 seems to work out ok.
At least you see them flying now and then.


Richard

[Bob Olds]

Richard Lamb > wrote in message >...
> If you want low-n-slow, check the Texas Parasol.
> Remenescent of the Pietenpol Scout, VW powered.
> All aluminum construction with fabric cover.
> Nice flyer too.
>
> Check www.flash.net/~lamb01



************************************************** ******************************

Our EAA Chapter 1156 is building a Piet which will have a Suburu. I
don't know the model,etc. but there are more around with the Suburu
engine.

Bob Olds
Charleston,Arkansas

************************************************** ******************************

[Marvin Barnard]

I agree with your choice, and fly VW myself.
If you don't mind a redrive, VW Gene Smith offers an
excellent version for type 1 VW which will turn a big prop and produce
100 hp at 200 lbs. installed. If you build it the cost is aproaching
$3000.00 bucks.
A direct drive (for aircraft like Texas Parasol, Teenie, M-19, or
VP-1 etc.) can be built for 700.00 bucks if you start from a good core.
VW type 1 is the most proven engine in the world considering it's
billions of hours time in ground vehicles and a lot of airtime as well.
No engine design ever built even comes close to the aftermarket
development data, performance data, endurance data, cost economics, and
parts availablility as the type 1 VW. ..........None.

[jls]

"Bill A." > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:21:06 -0500, " jls" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bill A." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >> I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
> >> starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
> >> course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read
you
> >> need a Rotex
> >
> >Rotax? Nope. Pietenpols use old Ford A-Model engines, Corvair
engines,
> >and affordable old Continentals like the A-65 and C-85. If you are on a
> >tight budget in Southern California, the Pietenpol Aircamper may be the
way
> >to go. Do a google and you'll find all kinds of Piet groups. The Piet
> >clan gather every summer in Brodhead, Wisconsin for a fly-in. It is
said
> >that if you visit with them a spell will be cast over you and you'll be a
> >Piet-head for the rest of your life.
>
> I've done a bit of searching online but I can't seem to find
> any Continentals for sale that aren't already attached to
> something. Where would I find some and what's the ballpark
> price? Are Corvair engines still around :) with as few
> Corvairs that were produced I would think the supply would be
> limited (along with parts) and can you still find Ford Model
> A engines any more, much less parts? What would be the most
> economical, commonly used engine out there now a days?

Try Barnstormers.com, Trade-a-Plane, and Ebaymotors.com for old
Continentals. We just found one, an A-65 we can convert to A-80, nearby
for just over 1k and will put about 2k in it for rebuild. For 3k you can't
beat it. Subarus will work too, as someone suggested. You probably need
a redrive for a high-turning Soob engine. Corvair engines are plentiful
and parts are not hard to find. And believe or not there are plenty of old
A-Model Ford engines, but I don't know the price. I'll ask a friend who
just bought one.

I do recall an A-65-powered Piet with a big lead weight bolted to the front
of the engine. I wouldn't want that so when you build the Piet designed
for the heavy Ford engine, you have to be careful about W&B.

Just keep shaking the bushes and you will find it. Get somebody to send
you the old articles from Mechanix Illustrated where Bernie Pietenpol said
he could have you flying for about $500 and you'll be sold. Or was that
$200? 50?

[jls]

"Marvin Barnard" > wrote in message
...
> I agree with your choice, and fly VW myself.
> If you don't mind a redrive, VW Gene Smith offers an
> excellent version for type 1 VW which will turn a big prop and produce
> 100 hp at 200 lbs. installed. If you build it the cost is aproaching
> $3000.00 bucks.
> A direct drive (for aircraft like Texas Parasol, Teenie, M-19, or
> VP-1 etc.) can be built for 700.00 bucks if you start from a good core.
> VW type 1 is the most proven engine in the world considering it's
> billions of hours time in ground vehicles and a lot of airtime as well.
> No engine design ever built even comes close to the aftermarket
> development data, performance data, endurance data, cost economics, and
> parts availablility as the type 1 VW. ..........None.
>

I put around 100 hours on a VW-powered Karatoo with redrive. We never
really got it dialed in but I was impressed with that big prop out there
ticking over and acting like an airbrake on final. And when you shoved the
throttle in, that thing could do some climbing too. The redrive used a
cogged belt which gave some trouble but could have been tweaked out with
time and effort. It was not my project but I enjoyed flying it. One time
I was out over Lake James when the VW engine seized from overheating and
barely made it to dry land. Plenty of power from an EA-81, and then an
1835cc VW. The VW engine always got too hot, but now that I look back on
it, it was because they hadn't cowled and baffled it right and should have
used a bigger oil sump and oil cooler. I had a 3-liter Porsche Targa which
held about 10 or 15 qts. oil and a big cooler up front for cooling it. You
have to educate yourself and look around, be circumspect.

Yeah, I'm sold on those type 1 VW engines --- simple, durable, light, cheap,
fun to rebuild and tinker with and you can run them forever. But if you
turn one up to 3k-3.5k rpm, you're going to have to be especially careful to
cool it. Have you seen the Piet with that huge radiator up front to cool
the Ford engine? If I were building a Piet I'd go with the Ford and be
patriotic about it. Besides, that low-revving guttural engine purr is,
well, indescribably sonorous.

[Jay]

I suppose if the VW is lighter and more powerful than the model A
engine, you could always mount it in the same place put lead weights(a
car battery?) up front.

I'd vote for the longer nose/lighter plane though, you can always
enlarge the rudder. Also as far as strait line stability, the
fuselage area in front of the CG may be offset to some degree by the
gyroscopic effect of the spinning mass being further from the CG.

Regards
--------------------------------------------------------
> I fly a VW.
> But it won't swing enough prop to fly an Air Camper.
>
>
> The Piet Air Camper was designed around the Ford engine.
> The plane needs that mass of metal up front to balance properly.
>
> With a lighter, a longer mount is needed to keep the plane in balance.
> Longer noses usually mean less yaw stability.
>
> A Contenental A-65 - A-85 seems to work out ok.
> At least you see them flying now and then.
>
>
> Richard

For more information on Pietenpol engine options, try the Buckeye Pietenpol
Page at: http://users.aol.com/BPANews/www.html.

B/R

Mike B.


"Bill A." > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I'm still trying to select an aircraft to build from scratch and it's
> starting to look like it's coming down to the engine (budget reasons of
> course). I really like the Pietenpol Aircamper but from what I've read you
> need a Rotex or other "aircraft" engine and of course that's expensive. I
> was also thinking of the Volksplane, which I don't like as much but it can
> use a VW engine which I can find cheap and I've torn down and rebuilt a
> couple of them so I'm more familiar with them.
>
>
>
> So the question's are.does anyone have experience (good or bad) with a VW
> engine in an Aircamper? What other scratch build planes work well with VW
> engines other then the Volksplanes? What other engines would fall into the
> same price range has a VW (which I would be getting used and rebuilding
> myself)?
>
>
>
> Thanks all
>
> Bill A.
>
> Canoga Park, CA
>
>
>
> PS. If anyone has a Pietenpol, Volksplane, or similar plane in the LA area
I
> sure would like to take a look at it.
>
>

[Ron Webb]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Corvair engines
http://www.flycorvair.com/

I've read that Bernie Pietenpol never used anything else after he tried one
on a Piet. Forged crank, been flying since the early '60's. Nobody has ever
seen a cracked jug or broken crank. Much smoother than a 4 cylinder. Lots of
really cheap parts available from
http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/pages.cgi?category=home



I picked up a running Corvair engine for $50, Machined a prop hub, and that
was all that was needed to get one running on my airboat. Not optimum, but
good enough to work. You can spend a lot of money, or almost none at all.

[Tom Cummings]

" jls" > wrote in message news:j7dPb.38883
Are Corvair engines still around :) with as few
> > Corvairs that were produced I would think the supply would be
> > limited (along with parts)
Corvair engines are plentiful as well as the parts. We are talking rebuilds.
Use '64 through '69 engines and view http://www.flycorvair.com/
and http://www.corvaircraft.com/ for more specifics on selective cases and
heads to use.
Corvair College V was just held this past weekend at Hanover, CA.
Tom

[Marvin Barnard]

Be nice!........;-)

[Greg Piney]

And if you really want to see what you can do with a Corvair engine,
take a look at: http://www.visionaircraft.com/CorvairCraft

Greg Piney
Vision#33
Tom Cummings wrote:
> " jls" > wrote in message news:j7dPb.38883
> Are Corvair engines still around :) with as few
>
>>>Corvairs that were produced I would think the supply would be
>>>limited (along with parts)
>
> Corvair engines are plentiful as well as the parts. We are talking rebuilds.
> Use '64 through '69 engines and view http://www.flycorvair.com/
> and http://www.corvaircraft.com/ for more specifics on selective cases and
> heads to use.
> Corvair College V was just held this past weekend at Hanover, CA.
> Tom
>
>

[Morgans]

"Marvin Barnard" > wrote >

No engine design ever built even comes close to the aftermarket
> development data, performance data, endurance data, cost economics, and
> parts availablility as the type 1 VW. ..........None.

Cough cough, sputter, cough.

Is there a full loon, err- moon out?
--
Jim in NC

[Richard Lamb]

Morgans wrote:
>
> "Marvin Barnard" > wrote >
>
> No engine design ever built even comes close to the aftermarket
> > development data, performance data, endurance data, cost economics, and
> > parts availablility as the type 1 VW. ..........None.
>
> Cough cough, sputter, cough.
>
> Is there a full loon, err- moon out?
> --
> Jim in NC

Well, I guess in the general sense he is right.

There are skads of after market stuff for VW Street Use builders

But for an aero engine, there's only Great Plains.

Richard

I hate it when it goes Cough cough, sputter, cough.

[Richard Lamb]

Ron Webb wrote:
>
> Everything you ever wanted to know about Corvair engines
> http://www.flycorvair.com/
>
> I've read that Bernie Pietenpol never used anything else after he tried one
> on a Piet. Forged crank, been flying since the early '60's. Nobody has ever
> seen a cracked jug or broken crank. Much smoother than a 4 cylinder. Lots of
> really cheap parts available from
> http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/pages.cgi?category=home
>
> I picked up a running Corvair engine for $50, Machined a prop hub, and that
> was all that was needed to get one running on my airboat. Not optimum, but
> good enough to work. You can spend a lot of money, or almost none at all.

Does that Corvair on your air boat have a forged crank?

[Ron Webb]

> Does that Corvair on your air boat have a forged crank?

I'm told that every Corvair engine ever made has a forged crank. Can't say
with my own eyes - since I never cracked the case.

[RU ok]

"Morgans" > wrote:

>"Marvin Barnard" > wrote >
>
> No engine design ever built even comes close to the aftermarket
>> development data, performance data, endurance data, cost economics, and
>> parts availablility as the type 1 VW. ..........None.
>
>Cough cough, sputter, cough.
>
>Is there a full loon, err- moon out?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do the math....

January 21 = NEW MOON = New Loons



Barnyard BOb --

[Marvin Barnard]

I'm an old loon. And a VW nut as well!

[Bill A.]

> Try Barnstormers.com, Trade-a-Plane, and Ebaymotors.com for old
> Continentals. We just found one, an A-65 we can convert to A-80, nearby
> for just over 1k and will put about 2k in it for rebuild. For 3k you
can't
> beat it. Subarus will work too, as someone suggested. You probably
need
> a redrive for a high-turning Soob engine. Corvair engines are plentiful
> and parts are not hard to find. And believe or not there are plenty of
old
> A-Model Ford engines, but I don't know the price. I'll ask a friend who
> just bought one.
>
> I do recall an A-65-powered Piet with a big lead weight bolted to the
front
> of the engine. I wouldn't want that so when you build the Piet designed
> for the heavy Ford engine, you have to be careful about W&B.

When I first read about lightwieght engines on the Piet I also
thought of a front end counter wieght
but I was thinking more along the lines of beefing up the firewall
with maybe a heavier gauge metal
covering.


>
> Just keep shaking the bushes and you will find it. Get somebody to send
> you the old articles from Mechanix Illustrated where Bernie Pietenpol said
> he could have you flying for about $500 and you'll be sold. Or was that
> $200? 50?
>
>

[RU ok]

(Marvin Barnard) wrote:

> I'm an old loon. And a VW nut as well!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My condolences to your family. <g>

Next full moon convention...
February 6, 2004

P.S.
I respect your unflappable style, Marvin.



Barnyard BOb

[Marvin Barnard]

Wow! Now I'm really compressed! All the auto conversion guru's
trying to win your respect for so long, are gonna be jealous!.......;-)

[RU ok]

(Marvin Barnard) wrote:

>Wow! Now I'm really compressed! All the auto conversion guru's
>trying to win your respect for so long, are gonna be jealous!.......;-)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And they should be jealous. It's pretty neat to see
someone maintain poise under fire when their passion
is tickled by someone as obnoxious as yours truly. <g>

So....
Let the others take a flying fornicate at a rolling pastry,
if it causes their knickers to knot up.

Ya done good, Marvin. Too many doods are running
around here lately with short wicks. Of course, it wasn't
so bad when it was just me... naturally. <big grin>


Barnyard BOb - too many curmudgeons spoil the broth