Re: Information on buying an aircraft

[Marco L]

There's a fellow newsgrouper by the name of David Megginson who recently
purchased a Warrior and is a fellow Canadian. He'll probably answer this
post soon anyway but I would do a Google search for his posts if he's
offline.

I own a 1978 Warrior II but it looks like you are looking for more
region-specific information. To me, a Warrior is one of the few "hidden"
bargains out there that remains a bargain because of its "trainer" label. It
has normal aircraft "gotchas" that require the standard due diligence like
adequate pre-buy inspections and history evaluations. Pick up the "Used
Aircraft Buying Guide" for more info or any other aircraft buying guide for
that matter to get the basic background tips.

Good luck and let me know if you have any plane-specific questions.

Marco Leon
N36616


"Gilles Leblanc" > wrote in message
...
> Does anybody know of a site that will answer all my questions related to
> purchasing my first aircraft? I live in Niagara Falls, Ontario, therefore,
> relevent Canadian information would be great! Some of the questions that
> I'm asking myself are:
>
> What is involved when purchasing with a partner...
> How much is insurance for ... let's say a Warrior worth $60 000.00...
> How much are hanger fees...
> What else should I be asking myself???
> How much does it cost to keep the thing flying??
>
> If anybody has a site, or the willingness to answer these and other
> questions... I'd really appreciate it.
>
> Gilles Leblanc
>
>
>
>



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[David Megginson]

"Marco L" <beach321(at)ix.netcom.com> writes:

> I own a 1978 Warrior II but it looks like you are looking for more
> region-specific information. To me, a Warrior is one of the few
> "hidden" bargains out there that remains a bargain because of its
> "trainer" label. It has normal aircraft "gotchas" that require the
> standard due diligence like adequate pre-buy inspections and history
> evaluations. Pick up the "Used Aircraft Buying Guide" for more info
> or any other aircraft buying guide for that matter to get the basic
> background tips.

One of the other things that makes a Warrior II a hidden treasure is
STC SA00397NY. The 160 hp Warrior II was initially certified for a
maximum gross weight of 2325 lb, the same as the 150 hp Warrior.
Around 1983 or 1984, Piper recertified the Warrior II for 2440 lb
maximum gross weight, but it seems that most Warrior II's extant are
earlier than that.

Fortunately, there is a cheap, paper-only STC to raise the maximum
gross weight of the early Warrior II's to 2440 lb as well -- all
that's required is a form for your IA/A&P (AME in Canada), a placard
on the panel, and the proper PIM/POH on board.

I first saw my Warrior on the way back from trying out a 1973
fixed-gear Cardinal. Even at 2335 lb gross weight, the Warrior had a
full-fuel load of 550 lb (which was higher than that particular
Cardinal), it flew faster on less fuel burn, it was in much better
shape (paint, interior, avionics, etc.), and it cost considerably
less.

After applying the STC, my full-fuel load went up to 665 lb, which is
in the same neighbourhood as a Cessna 182 (!!), though (obviously)
with considerably less climb performance. My wife, daughters, and me
come up to 545 lb, so I can put my whole family in the Warrior
together with my 35 lb dog and still carry, in theory, 85 lb of
luggage (including my 15 lb flight bag). The Warrior does handle
quite a bit differently near gross weight on a hot day, but it still
lifts off the runway where the POH says it should, climbs acceptably
well at Vy, and cruises at over 120 ktas on 8.5 gph up around
7000-8000 ft DA.

An Archer would be even better, of course ...


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[Gilles Leblanc]

> I'm going to come in somewhere around CAD 100/hour in my first year,
> flying over 150 hours, but that includes a new four-place intercom
> (breaking my no-new-avionics rule) and a bunch of other small
> first-year fixes. I'm expecting the cost to be a bit lower in future
> years. Of that 100, I pay about CAD 30/hour for fuel (cruising at 75%
> power), a couple of bucks for oil (at most), and CAD 10/hour for the
> engine overhaul reserve; the rest is fixed costs divided up. The more
> you fly, the cheaper it gets, and vice-versa.

Does that CAD 100/hour include the price of the aircraft??

[David Megginson]

"Gilles Leblanc" > writes:

> Does that CAD 100/hour include the price of the aircraft??

[U.S. readers divide by 1.4 to get approximate U.S. dollar amounts]

That's a tricky one.

I paid approximately CAD 70K for my Warrior (last December), and
one-year Canadian federal government bonds are yielding about 2.5%
right now on the market -- if I use that as the opportunity cost for
the capital tied up in the plane, it will add CAD 1,750/year, or
around CAD 12/hour, to my operating costs.

However, the interest from the bonds would be taxable (unless it were
in an RSP), so I'd have to give about 35-40% of it back to various
levels of government. That would leave me with just over CAD
1,000/year net income if I had invested the money in bonds instead of
a plane, and that works out to about CAD 7/hour at 150 hours/year.

Of course, the plane is itself a volatile investment that can rise or
fall in value, like a house -- when I sell the plane, I might find
that its value has risen or fallen by an average of several thousand
dollars each year. Because of that fact, I decided to leave out
opportunity cost and just treat the plane as one of my retirement
investments in a diversified portfolio (at least it's doing better
than my stocks).


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[David Megginson]

"Marty Ross" > writes:

> How does your dog like flying?

About as much as she likes flies. We put a harness on her and attach
it with a short, strong leash to one of the luggage straps, then let
her sit on top of the luggage. She looks out the window a bit, but I
don't think her brain can understand what's going on. She seems
happiest when the noise stops.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[Big John]

Marty

My little miniature Dachshund would look out the window until we
reached cruise altitude and then go to sleep. Would sleep until touch
down and after parking and opening door he would make a bee line for
the nearest grass to relieve himself and then with help (he was a
little dog and as he got older couldn't jump up on wing by himself)
get back in bird for next leg.

Had to RON in Dallas one night due to WX,. Went to Motel which had a
sign "No dogs". Kay wrapped him around her waist like a mink stole and
we checked in with no problem <G>

Big John


On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:37:12 GMT, "Marty Ross" >
wrote:

>How does your dog like flying?
>
>"David Megginson" > wrote in message
...
>> "Marco L" <beach321(at)ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>> > I own a 1978 Warrior II but it looks like you are looking for more
>> > region-specific information. To me, a Warrior is one of the few
>> > "hidden" bargains out there that remains a bargain because of its
>> > "trainer" label. It has normal aircraft "gotchas" that require the
>> > standard due diligence like adequate pre-buy inspections and history
>> > evaluations. Pick up the "Used Aircraft Buying Guide" for more info
>> > or any other aircraft buying guide for that matter to get the basic
>> > background tips.
>>
>> One of the other things that makes a Warrior II a hidden treasure is
>> STC SA00397NY. The 160 hp Warrior II was initially certified for a
>> maximum gross weight of 2325 lb, the same as the 150 hp Warrior.
>> Around 1983 or 1984, Piper recertified the Warrior II for 2440 lb
>> maximum gross weight, but it seems that most Warrior II's extant are
>> earlier than that.
>>
>> Fortunately, there is a cheap, paper-only STC to raise the maximum
>> gross weight of the early Warrior II's to 2440 lb as well -- all
>> that's required is a form for your IA/A&P (AME in Canada), a placard
>> on the panel, and the proper PIM/POH on board.
>>
>> I first saw my Warrior on the way back from trying out a 1973
>> fixed-gear Cardinal. Even at 2335 lb gross weight, the Warrior had a
>> full-fuel load of 550 lb (which was higher than that particular
>> Cardinal), it flew faster on less fuel burn, it was in much better
>> shape (paint, interior, avionics, etc.), and it cost considerably
>> less.
>>
>> After applying the STC, my full-fuel load went up to 665 lb, which is
>> in the same neighbourhood as a Cessna 182 (!!), though (obviously)
>> with considerably less climb performance. My wife, daughters, and me
>> come up to 545 lb, so I can put my whole family in the Warrior
>> together with my 35 lb dog and still carry, in theory, 85 lb of
>> luggage (including my 15 lb flight bag). The Warrior does handle
>> quite a bit differently near gross weight on a hot day, but it still
>> lifts off the runway where the POH says it should, climbs acceptably
>> well at Vy, and cruises at over 120 ktas on 8.5 gph up around
>> 7000-8000 ft DA.
>>
>> An Archer would be even better, of course ...
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>> --
>> David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/
>

[Marty Ross]

Ha! Great story.

Our dog is a dachsund/beagle combination, but knowing her, I don't believe
she would put up with the noise. She barks real loud at noises she doesn't
understand.

Also, what about hearing protection? I would think the dogs would go deaf
without muffs! Do they make doggie headsets?

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Marty
>
> My little miniature Dachshund would look out the window until we
> reached cruise altitude and then go to sleep. Would sleep until touch
> down and after parking and opening door he would make a bee line for
> the nearest grass to relieve himself and then with help (he was a
> little dog and as he got older couldn't jump up on wing by himself)
> get back in bird for next leg.
>
> Had to RON in Dallas one night due to WX,. Went to Motel which had a
> sign "No dogs". Kay wrapped him around her waist like a mink stole and
> we checked in with no problem <G>
>
> Big John
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:37:12 GMT, "Marty Ross" >
> wrote:
>
> >How does your dog like flying?
> >
> >"David Megginson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Marco L" <beach321(at)ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > I own a 1978 Warrior II but it looks like you are looking for more
> >> > region-specific information. To me, a Warrior is one of the few
> >> > "hidden" bargains out there that remains a bargain because of its
> >> > "trainer" label. It has normal aircraft "gotchas" that require the
> >> > standard due diligence like adequate pre-buy inspections and history
> >> > evaluations. Pick up the "Used Aircraft Buying Guide" for more info
> >> > or any other aircraft buying guide for that matter to get the basic
> >> > background tips.
> >>
> >> One of the other things that makes a Warrior II a hidden treasure is
> >> STC SA00397NY. The 160 hp Warrior II was initially certified for a
> >> maximum gross weight of 2325 lb, the same as the 150 hp Warrior.
> >> Around 1983 or 1984, Piper recertified the Warrior II for 2440 lb
> >> maximum gross weight, but it seems that most Warrior II's extant are
> >> earlier than that.
> >>
> >> Fortunately, there is a cheap, paper-only STC to raise the maximum
> >> gross weight of the early Warrior II's to 2440 lb as well -- all
> >> that's required is a form for your IA/A&P (AME in Canada), a placard
> >> on the panel, and the proper PIM/POH on board.
> >>
> >> I first saw my Warrior on the way back from trying out a 1973
> >> fixed-gear Cardinal. Even at 2335 lb gross weight, the Warrior had a
> >> full-fuel load of 550 lb (which was higher than that particular
> >> Cardinal), it flew faster on less fuel burn, it was in much better
> >> shape (paint, interior, avionics, etc.), and it cost considerably
> >> less.
> >>
> >> After applying the STC, my full-fuel load went up to 665 lb, which is
> >> in the same neighbourhood as a Cessna 182 (!!), though (obviously)
> >> with considerably less climb performance. My wife, daughters, and me
> >> come up to 545 lb, so I can put my whole family in the Warrior
> >> together with my 35 lb dog and still carry, in theory, 85 lb of
> >> luggage (including my 15 lb flight bag). The Warrior does handle
> >> quite a bit differently near gross weight on a hot day, but it still
> >> lifts off the runway where the POH says it should, climbs acceptably
> >> well at Vy, and cruises at over 120 ktas on 8.5 gph up around
> >> 7000-8000 ft DA.
> >>
> >> An Archer would be even better, of course ...
> >>
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/
> >
>