Re: Presidential TFR violations in Seattle?

[C J Campbell]

It took me 40 minutes to get through to the FSS on the phone this morning. I
had a student at 8:00 am and then a charter at 11:00. Tacoma Narrows fell
within the 30 nm TFR. The briefer told me that nine planes had been forced
down in Redmond, OR, the previous day. The FSS confirmed for me that the TFR
did not start until 11:40, so I flew with the student. I then filed my VFR
flight plan to Prosser (which is just outside of the other Presidential TFR
for the day in Pasco -- apparently Air Force One and I would be passing each
other). The briefer told me to call again if I was going to be late
departing because he would need to modify my flight plan to a quasi-IFR
flight plan.

My charter passenger did not show up until 11:00, so departure was pushed
back to 11:30. The briefer told me to be absolutely certain to open my
flight plan and get my squawk code before departing TIW. Unfortunately, I
could not raise Seattle FSS on the radio while on the ground at TIW, so
following the briefer's instructions I told the tower that I could not reach
them. The tower gave me a squawk and told me to open my flight plan in the
air. I said that I had been specifically told not to do that. The tower said
that, despite what FSS had told me, that was the procedure that I needed to
use and the squawk would protect me. @#$!

I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and headed
straight for Olympia, contacting FSS and Seattle Approach for flight
following. As instructed, I monitored 121.5. During the next 40 minutes or
so I heard at least half a dozen aircraft hailed on guard: one at Port
Townsend, one at Whidbey, one at Bremerton, one over Sultan, another over
Tiger Mountain doing circles at 1500 feet, and another over Crest Air Park.
The aircraft at Bremerton and Crest were told to land immediately and call
Seattle Approach and were warned that they would be met on the ground. The
others were told to leave the TFR immediately and given vectors. All of the
aircraft were squawking 1200 so they were not making any attempt to hide
themselves. I did not hear responses from any of the aircraft, which did not
surprise me. I suspect a couple of the planes might have been Canadians who
had not been told about the TFRs.

There were three other TFRs along the way for forest fires, but I already
knew about them and had planned my route around them.

Guard was busier than ATC the whole time I was west of the Cascades. I was
shocked at the magnitude of the problem and so was my passenger, an
attorney. The system is broken, no doubt about it. My passenger wondered how
so many pilots apparently had no inkling that the President was visiting or
that there might be restrictions because of it. I explained that my student
that very morning did not know the President was visiting, and that this
student is a graduate of the Air Force Academy receiving his initial pilot
training -- ostensibly not some ignorant dummy (he is sharp -- I am very
proud of him).

On the return trip I was told that the effective time of the TFR had been
extended "for at least an hour." So much for those pilots who probably got
briefings, but expected that the TFR would be closed by the time they got
there. No doubt there were dozens of aircraft caught by that little stunt.
Again, my passenger was surprised that, despite all the security, we were
allowed to fly right over McChord AFB, where we got to see a C-5 on final. I
think the whole flight left him just shaking his head at how screwed up
things can get.

No doubt we will see a repeat performance when the Democratic candidate
comes to visit next year. If there are any pilots left who still have their
licenses.

Unfortunately I had to decline my very nice invitation to have lunch with
the President for only $2,000. I am sure that I would have treasured my
photograph of him shaking my hand forever. Nonetheless, I had work to do,
and I feel that he has already cost me plenty as it is.

[C J Campbell]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
|
| I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
| would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and
headed
| straight for Olympia

Just a philosophical note: I never dreamed that one day the arrival of the
Leader of the Free World would make me run like a wet hen.

[David H]

C J Campbell wrote:

> ...The briefer told me that nine planes had been forced
> down in Redmond, OR, the previous day...

> ...As instructed, I monitored 121.5. During the next 40 minutes or
> so I heard at least half a dozen aircraft hailed on guard: one at Port
> Townsend, one at Whidbey, one at Bremerton, one over Sultan, another over
> Tiger Mountain doing circles at 1500 feet, and another over Crest Air Park...

> ...Guard was busier than ATC the whole time I was west of the Cascades. I was
>
> shocked at the magnitude of the problem and so was my passenger, an
> attorney. The system is broken, no doubt about it...

CJ, this raises a question that I have not heard addressed anywhere....

I have always assumed that if some hapless pilot gets snagged by a TFR, we all
would hear about it right away. Maybe on CNN (the pipeline patrol pilot who
flew over Bush's motorcade last week comes to mind), but even if it didn't make
the mainstream national media, I figured that surely every incident would be
all over the internet aviation groups, reported by AOPA, etc. But today's
experience and your observations about the frequncy with which violations seem
to be occurring recently makes me wonder. I doubt there's anything special
about pilots flying in the Northwest that makes them more prone to bust
presidential TFRs than pilots elsewhere. If the last 24 hours are any
indication, it sounds like a LOT more pilots are busting TFRs and getting
forced down than I have been hearing about.

Is anyone keeping track of how many people are getting swept up in these
presidential TFRs? (I mean, besides Ashcroft).

David H
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

[BTIZ]

I've not heard of a TFR that was only 3 nm wide.. not a presidential one
anyway..

BT

"David H" > wrote in message
...
> C J Campbell wrote:
>
> > ...The briefer told me that nine planes had been forced
> > down in Redmond, OR, the previous day...
>
> > ...As instructed, I monitored 121.5. During the next 40 minutes or
> > so I heard at least half a dozen aircraft hailed on guard: one at Port
> > Townsend, one at Whidbey, one at Bremerton, one over Sultan, another
over
> > Tiger Mountain doing circles at 1500 feet, and another over Crest Air
Park...
>
> > ...Guard was busier than ATC the whole time I was west of the Cascades.
I was
> >
> > shocked at the magnitude of the problem and so was my passenger, an
> > attorney. The system is broken, no doubt about it...
>
> CJ, this raises a question that I have not heard addressed anywhere....
>
> I have always assumed that if some hapless pilot gets snagged by a TFR, we
all
> would hear about it right away. Maybe on CNN (the pipeline patrol pilot
who
> flew over Bush's motorcade last week comes to mind), but even if it didn't
make
> the mainstream national media, I figured that surely every incident would
be
> all over the internet aviation groups, reported by AOPA, etc. But today's
> experience and your observations about the frequncy with which violations
seem
> to be occurring recently makes me wonder. I doubt there's anything
special
> about pilots flying in the Northwest that makes them more prone to bust
> presidential TFRs than pilots elsewhere. If the last 24 hours are any
> indication, it sounds like a LOT more pilots are busting TFRs and getting
> forced down than I have been hearing about.
>
> Is anyone keeping track of how many people are getting swept up in these
> presidential TFRs? (I mean, besides Ashcroft).
>
> David H
> Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
> http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying
>

[David H]

BTIZ wrote:

> I've not heard of a TFR that was only 3 nm wide.. not a presidential one
> anyway..

Me neither - what's the 3 nm reference?

David H
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:11:54 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
>would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and headed
>straight for Olympia, contacting FSS and Seattle Approach for flight
>following.

You're right, of course. I took a flight from Portland to Olympia and
back today. I got briefings at 12:00 PDT, and 5:00 PDT, both over the
phone, both with no mention whatsoever of a presidential TFR.

Was it cancelled by 7:00 p.m.? I hadn't even heard the President was
in Seattle.

Now, in Portland *yesterday*, the idiot TFR stretched from Wilsonville
Oregon all the way to just south of the southern border of Clark
County, Washington. You never realize how freaking *huge* that circle
is until you overlay it on your hometown. That was a cylinder covering
over two million people! It was *all* the airports in the greater
Portland Area! Good grief! AOPA's list is huge for that day!

3 miles and 5000 feet AGL I could understand, but this is just
ridiculous.

Rob

[Tom S.]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> |
> | I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
> | would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and
> headed
> | straight for Olympia
>
> Just a philosophical note: I never dreamed that one day the arrival of the
> Leader of the Free World would make me run like a wet hen.

Is he a president, or a emperor/king?

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:11:54 -0700, C J Campbell wrote:

>It took me 40 minutes to get through to the FSS on the phone this morning. I
>had a student at 8:00 am and then a charter at 11:00. Tacoma Narrows fell
>within the 30 nm TFR. The briefer told me that nine planes had been forced
>down in Redmond, OR, the previous day. The FSS confirmed for me that the TFR
>did not start until 11:40, so I flew with the student. I then filed my VFR
>flight plan to Prosser (which is just outside of the other Presidential TFR
>for the day in Pasco -- apparently Air Force One and I would be passing each
>other). The briefer told me to call again if I was going to be late
>departing because he would need to modify my flight plan to a quasi-IFR
>flight plan.

And all this hassle only for one person? Hm, I can't understand it and I
can't understand that you can live with that. Isn't the president nothing
more than your servant? Doing a job for _you_? Paid by you, the people?

#m
--
Don't like your neighbor? -> https://tips.fbi.gov/

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:42:37 -0700, C J Campbell wrote:

>Just a philosophical note: I never dreamed that one day the arrival of the
>Leader of the Free World would make me run like a wet hen.

You might be right with "the Leader" (Fuehrer), but you sure aren't any
longer right with "the Free World". There is no free world any longer.
Thanks to PATRIOT ACT, CAPPS, CAPPS II, demanding fingerprinting, RFIDs,
huge databases, etc - this can be seen in most of the western countries.
Some day the average John stands up and claims his freedom back from his
servant, the government. But we first have to learn it the hard way ...
just sign up to some good mailing lists ... you might be surprised.

#m

--
Don't like your neighbor? -> https://tips.fbi.gov/

[Margy Natalie]

David H wrote:...

>
> I have always assumed that if some hapless pilot gets snagged by a TFR, we all
> would hear about it right away. Maybe on CNN (the pipeline patrol pilot who
> flew over Bush's motorcade last week comes to mind), but even if it didn't make
> the mainstream national media, I figured that surely every incident would be
> all over the internet aviation groups, reported by AOPA, etc.

I know as of mid-July the F-16's at Andrews (Washington DC FRZ/ADIZ) had scrambles
84 times this year. I don't think we hear about most of them.

Margy

[BTIZ]

sorry.. confused the Presidential TFR with another TFR "pop-up" I read,
turned out to be a pop up TFR for an aircraft accident in Minn

B (look and read more carefully) T

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> BTIZ wrote:
> >
> > I've not heard of a TFR that was only 3 nm wide.. not a presidential one
> > anyway..
>
> I saw no reference to a 3 mile TFR in C.J.'s post.
>
> George Patterson
> Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Andrew Gideon]

C J Campbell wrote:

> On the return trip I was told that the effective time of the TFR had been
> extended "for at least an hour." So much for those pilots who probably got
> briefings, but expected that the TFR would be closed by the time they got
> there. No doubt there were dozens of aircraft caught by that little stunt.

The lack of communication is ridiculous, but then there cannot be effective
communication given that these conditions are changed - literally - at whim
of one politician.

I was caught outside of a Bush TFR when that shouldn't have happened. I was
flying out of TEB, which was right beyond the edge (no doubt deliberately
to avoid annoying the corporate traffic which flies out of there). On my
way back, I was getting advisories. I was told by ATC that TEB was closed
now due to the Bush TFR.

I landed at Stewart, and made some phone calls. Neither the FBO at TEB nor
the tower at TEB knew that they were closed!

Unbelievable.

- Andrew

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Phil Boyer will be coming to my area for a 'town meeting' next month. I
wanted to ask if it would be okay with you to show him a print out of his
post. I know AOPA has been trying to get examples of the effects of the
pop-up presidential TFR's and I thought yours would be a good example to
show him in the meeting (I've been to other 'town meetings with him and he's
been exceptionally approachable and helpful to me).

Just wanted to ask you first, though!

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> It took me 40 minutes to get through to the FSS on the phone this morning.
I
> had a student at 8:00 am and then a charter at 11:00. Tacoma Narrows fell
> within the 30 nm TFR. The briefer told me that nine planes had been forced
> down in Redmond, OR, the previous day. The FSS confirmed for me that the
TFR
> did not start until 11:40, so I flew with the student. I then filed my VFR
> flight plan to Prosser (which is just outside of the other Presidential
TFR
> for the day in Pasco -- apparently Air Force One and I would be passing
each
> other). The briefer told me to call again if I was going to be late
> departing because he would need to modify my flight plan to a quasi-IFR
> flight plan.
>
> My charter passenger did not show up until 11:00, so departure was pushed
> back to 11:30. The briefer told me to be absolutely certain to open my
> flight plan and get my squawk code before departing TIW. Unfortunately, I
> could not raise Seattle FSS on the radio while on the ground at TIW, so
> following the briefer's instructions I told the tower that I could not
reach
> them. The tower gave me a squawk and told me to open my flight plan in the
> air. I said that I had been specifically told not to do that. The tower
said
> that, despite what FSS had told me, that was the procedure that I needed
to
> use and the squawk would protect me. @#$!
>
> I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
> would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and
headed
> straight for Olympia, contacting FSS and Seattle Approach for flight
> following. As instructed, I monitored 121.5. During the next 40 minutes or
> so I heard at least half a dozen aircraft hailed on guard: one at Port
> Townsend, one at Whidbey, one at Bremerton, one over Sultan, another over
> Tiger Mountain doing circles at 1500 feet, and another over Crest Air
Park.
> The aircraft at Bremerton and Crest were told to land immediately and call
> Seattle Approach and were warned that they would be met on the ground. The
> others were told to leave the TFR immediately and given vectors. All of
the
> aircraft were squawking 1200 so they were not making any attempt to hide
> themselves. I did not hear responses from any of the aircraft, which did
not
> surprise me. I suspect a couple of the planes might have been Canadians
who
> had not been told about the TFRs.
>
> There were three other TFRs along the way for forest fires, but I already
> knew about them and had planned my route around them.
>
> Guard was busier than ATC the whole time I was west of the Cascades. I was
> shocked at the magnitude of the problem and so was my passenger, an
> attorney. The system is broken, no doubt about it. My passenger wondered
how
> so many pilots apparently had no inkling that the President was visiting
or
> that there might be restrictions because of it. I explained that my
student
> that very morning did not know the President was visiting, and that this
> student is a graduate of the Air Force Academy receiving his initial pilot
> training -- ostensibly not some ignorant dummy (he is sharp -- I am very
> proud of him).
>
> On the return trip I was told that the effective time of the TFR had been
> extended "for at least an hour." So much for those pilots who probably got
> briefings, but expected that the TFR would be closed by the time they got
> there. No doubt there were dozens of aircraft caught by that little stunt.
> Again, my passenger was surprised that, despite all the security, we were
> allowed to fly right over McChord AFB, where we got to see a C-5 on final.
I
> think the whole flight left him just shaking his head at how screwed up
> things can get.
>
> No doubt we will see a repeat performance when the Democratic candidate
> comes to visit next year. If there are any pilots left who still have
their
> licenses.
>
> Unfortunately I had to decline my very nice invitation to have lunch with
> the President for only $2,000. I am sure that I would have treasured my
> photograph of him shaking my hand forever. Nonetheless, I had work to do,
> and I feel that he has already cost me plenty as it is.
>
>

[Edwin Johnson]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:02:03 -0700, Tom S. > wrote:
>
>"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> |
>> | I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
>> | would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and
>> headed
>> | straight for Olympia
>>
>> Just a philosophical note: I never dreamed that one day the arrival of the
>> Leader of the Free World would make me run like a wet hen.
>
>Is he a president, or a emperor/king?

How about 'little Napoleon'?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Tom]

I offer the following solution to keeping our beloved president safe and
keeping the GA skies friendly and sane. The pres should stay the hell in
Washington, DC and use video conferencing. If major corporations can do it,
and save a bunch of travel bucks in the process, why not the pres?


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> It took me 40 minutes to get through to the FSS on the phone this morning.
I
> had a student at 8:00 am and then a charter at 11:00. Tacoma Narrows fell
> within the 30 nm TFR. The briefer told me that nine planes had been forced
> down in Redmond, OR, the previous day. The FSS confirmed for me that the
TFR
> did not start until 11:40, so I flew with the student. I then filed my VFR
> flight plan to Prosser (which is just outside of the other Presidential
TFR
> for the day in Pasco -- apparently Air Force One and I would be passing
each
> other). The briefer told me to call again if I was going to be late
> departing because he would need to modify my flight plan to a quasi-IFR
> flight plan.
>
> My charter passenger did not show up until 11:00, so departure was pushed
> back to 11:30. The briefer told me to be absolutely certain to open my
> flight plan and get my squawk code before departing TIW. Unfortunately, I
> could not raise Seattle FSS on the radio while on the ground at TIW, so
> following the briefer's instructions I told the tower that I could not
reach
> them. The tower gave me a squawk and told me to open my flight plan in the
> air. I said that I had been specifically told not to do that. The tower
said
> that, despite what FSS had told me, that was the procedure that I needed
to
> use and the squawk would protect me. @#$!
>
> I figured that the TFR would not be active for another ten minutes and I
> would be outside of it by then, anyway, so I blasted out of there and
headed
> straight for Olympia, contacting FSS and Seattle Approach for flight
> following. As instructed, I monitored 121.5. During the next 40 minutes or
> so I heard at least half a dozen aircraft hailed on guard: one at Port
> Townsend, one at Whidbey, one at Bremerton, one over Sultan, another over
> Tiger Mountain doing circles at 1500 feet, and another over Crest Air
Park.
> The aircraft at Bremerton and Crest were told to land immediately and call
> Seattle Approach and were warned that they would be met on the ground. The
> others were told to leave the TFR immediately and given vectors. All of
the
> aircraft were squawking 1200 so they were not making any attempt to hide
> themselves. I did not hear responses from any of the aircraft, which did
not
> surprise me. I suspect a couple of the planes might have been Canadians
who
> had not been told about the TFRs.
>
> There were three other TFRs along the way for forest fires, but I already
> knew about them and had planned my route around them.
>
> Guard was busier than ATC the whole time I was west of the Cascades. I was
> shocked at the magnitude of the problem and so was my passenger, an
> attorney. The system is broken, no doubt about it. My passenger wondered
how
> so many pilots apparently had no inkling that the President was visiting
or
> that there might be restrictions because of it. I explained that my
student
> that very morning did not know the President was visiting, and that this
> student is a graduate of the Air Force Academy receiving his initial pilot
> training -- ostensibly not some ignorant dummy (he is sharp -- I am very
> proud of him).
>
> On the return trip I was told that the effective time of the TFR had been
> extended "for at least an hour." So much for those pilots who probably got
> briefings, but expected that the TFR would be closed by the time they got
> there. No doubt there were dozens of aircraft caught by that little stunt.
> Again, my passenger was surprised that, despite all the security, we were
> allowed to fly right over McChord AFB, where we got to see a C-5 on final.
I
> think the whole flight left him just shaking his head at how screwed up
> things can get.
>
> No doubt we will see a repeat performance when the Democratic candidate
> comes to visit next year. If there are any pilots left who still have
their
> licenses.
>
> Unfortunately I had to decline my very nice invitation to have lunch with
> the President for only $2,000. I am sure that I would have treasured my
> photograph of him shaking my hand forever. Nonetheless, I had work to do,
> and I feel that he has already cost me plenty as it is.
>
>

[C J Campbell]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
| I offer the following solution to keeping our beloved president safe and
| keeping the GA skies friendly and sane. The pres should stay the hell in
| Washington, DC and use video conferencing. If major corporations can do
it,
| and save a bunch of travel bucks in the process, why not the pres?
|

People want that $2000 handshake.

[Ron Natalie]

"Tom" > wrote in message ...
> I offer the following solution to keeping our beloved president safe and
> keeping the GA skies friendly and sane. The pres should stay the hell in
> Washington, DC and use video conferencing. If major corporations can do it,
> and save a bunch of travel bucks in the process, why not the pres?
>
We don't want him here. Send him back to Texas and eliminate the airspace
restrictions here.