Rules for Logging Glider PIC Time

[Markus Graeber]

I'd like to ask for some feedback on how your country deals with
logging PIC time in gliders to help me with clarifying the rules here.
Acting as PIC (the one and only legally responsible pilot for the
aircraft) is one thing but logging PIC time is another animal.

My interpretation so far for e.g. the US is:

Pre-licence
- you log dual instruction time when flying with an instructur before
solo/before passing the check ride
- you log PIC time when flying instructor authorized solos before you
achieve your glider pilot licence (or certificate as it is called in
the US

Post-licence
- you log PIC time when flying alone as a glider pilot
- you log PIC time when flying dual while receiving instruction by a
licenced (and current) instructor - e.g. prep for commercial licence
check ride, BFR check flights etc.
- you log the total flight time as PIC time if you are acting as PIC
while flying dual with another licenced (and current) glider pilot or
passenger
- as a P2 glider pilot (licenced and current) flying with a P1 glider
pilot (acting as PIC and therefore licenced and current), if I, as the
P2, are the sole manipulator of the controls lets say for half the
flight, do I get to log that time as PIC time?

Thanks in advance,

Markus Graeber
Aeroclub de Colombia
Gliding Colombia/Vuelo a Vela Colombia

[T[_2_]]

On Jan 6, 8:29*pm, Markus Graeber > wrote:
> I'd like to ask for some feedback on how your country deals with
> logging PIC time in gliders to help me with clarifying the rules here.
> Acting as PIC (the one and only legally responsible pilot for the
> aircraft) is one thing but logging PIC time is another animal.
>
> My interpretation so far for e.g. the US is:
>
> Pre-licence
> - you log dual instruction time when flying with an instructur before
> solo/before passing the check ride
> - you log PIC time when flying instructor authorized solos before you
> achieve your glider pilot licence (or certificate as it is called in
> the US
>
> Post-licence
> - you log PIC time when flying alone as a glider pilot
> - you log PIC time when flying dual while receiving instruction by a
> licenced (and current) instructor - e.g. prep for commercial licence
> check ride, BFR check flights etc.
> - you log the total flight time as PIC time if you are acting as PIC
> while flying dual with another licenced (and current) glider pilot or
> passenger
> - as a P2 glider pilot (licenced and current) flying with a P1 glider
> pilot (acting as PIC and therefore licenced and current), if I, as the
> P2, are the sole manipulator of the controls lets say for half the
> flight, do I get to log that time as PIC time?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Markus Graeber
> Aeroclub de Colombia
> Gliding Colombia/Vuelo a Vela Colombia

All good except the last part.
US does not designate P1 P2.
Post license, receiving dual from qualified instructor, log PIC.
Two rated pilots flying together, determine before takeoff who is PIC.
Normally, for gliders two rated plots flying together only log PIC for
the time they are actually "hands on stick".

T

[Markus Graeber]

Thanks T, so the only scenario in the US for gliders where two pilots
can log PIC time for the same flying time is when a rated and current
instructor does instruction (e.g. commercial) or a check ride (e.g
BFR) with an already rated glider pilot?

I'd be interested to hear e.g. from the UK, AU & NZ how the P1/P2
relationship is handled in a glider with regards to logging PIC time.

Thanks,

Markus

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:23:40 -0800, Markus Graeber wrote:

> I'd be interested to hear e.g. from the UK, AU & NZ how the P1/P2
> relationship is handled in a glider with regards to logging PIC time.
>
At my UK club:

- If an instructor is on board he's P1 unless he's a safety pilot
or explicitly a passenger. In these cases the instructor will be
in the rear seat.

- If two current pilots are in the glider, the P1 role is decided before
launch and P1 will be in the front seat. In this situation P1 will
be the handling pilot during launch and landing.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Markus Graeber]

The one part that I was always wondering about in the US is FAR 61.129
that contains aeronautical experience requirements for the commercial
glider pilot rating, among other things it says:

FAR 61.129 (f) (1) 25 hours of flight time as a pilot in a glider and
that flight time must include at least 100 flights in a glider as
pilot in command, including at least-

My interpretation of this is at least 100 flights with logged glider
PIC time (as opposed to 100 flights acting as PIC - legally
responsible). So if I was flying with another rated and current glider
pilot (after receiving my private pilot glider rating) and we
alternate on the controls with the other pilot being the acting PIC
(legally responsible), according to my interpretation and T's take on
PIC time in this case, I could count this flight towards the "100
flights in a glider as pilot in command" requirement for the
commercial glider pilot rating in the US.

Am I missing something?

Markus

[B4soaring]

On 07/01/2012 12:23, Markus Graeber wrote:
> Thanks T, so the only scenario in the US for gliders where two pilots
> can log PIC time for the same flying time is when a rated and current
> instructor does instruction (e.g. commercial) or a check ride (e.g
> BFR) with an already rated glider pilot?
>
> I'd be interested to hear e.g. from the UK, AU& NZ how the P1/P2
> relationship is handled in a glider with regards to logging PIC time.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Markus

No licences in BGA-land so there's no distinction between pre-licence &
post-licence.

Your first solo is your first P1 in the logbook; thereafter, all solo
flights are P1, any further training, annual check flights, instructor
checks etc are P2.

Gliders might have dual controls but they are single crew aircraft &
only one person can be PIC/P1. If I'm receiving a check flight or any
further training, the other guy is in charge & P1, no matter how
qualified I might be.

Two qualified pilots flying together will agree before take off who will
be P1 at which point in the flight, eg "you're P1 on the way out, I'm P1
on the way back". Hands on the controls has nothing to do with it; I can
be P1, munching a sandwich while the other guy flies the glider.

(In the power world, P2 would refer to the co-pilot of a 2 crew
aircraft. Since there aren't any 2 crew gliders, we happily use P2 to
refer to anyone who isn't P1).

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

Taking this discussion forward in time to the "check ride":
Before the Practical Test ("check ride") in the US, the FAA Examiner
or Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) is required to look closely at your
pilot logbook to determine that you meet the requirements for the
certificate / rating for which you are applying. You will write some
of this information on the front of the FAA Form 8710-1
(Application.) On the back of the Form 8710-1, your flight instructor
will certify (sign) that you are ready for the test and then the
Examiner or DPE will certify (sign) that your logbook has been
reviewed and that you meet the requirements for the rating sought.

So your logbook must clearly indicate the flight and ground
instruction (yes, ground instruction must be logged), solo or PIC
time. Your logbook must show the CFI and Examiner that you meet or
exceed the minimum required experience. As a DPE, reviewing the times
and the CFI's endorsements in the applicant's logbook that are
incomplete or unclear causes me to question how complete their
experience truly is, and if I must cancel the Practical Test per the
guidance in my FAA Examiner Handbook.

So on the day of your Practical Test, present a "clean" logbook, so it
is easy to confirm your endorsements, solo/PIC flying experience,
ground and flight training received.
See the CFR (FAR) part 61 for the minimums that apply to the rating
you seek.

(Feel free to exceed the minimums!)

Burt
CFI / Designated Pilot Examiner
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, west Texas
USA

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Further to what Martin G, and B4, have written about the UK, there is
a bit more to it.

I was told that way back, when the CAA took charge of such matters and
the ANO (Air Navigation Order) first got written (or at least by the
CAA drafting people), the power world decided that P2 could only apply
in the case of a multicrew (by design) aircraft, as B4 said. The RAF
stuck to their historic practice of P1 and P2.

The UK power world does, I believe, have a situation during some form
of checks where both pilots can claim the entire flight as P1 (or
PIC). I am not an expert on that, but it looks rather like Marcus’s
case: “-you log PIC time when flying dual while receiving instruction
by a licensed (and current) instructor - e.g. prep for commercial
licence check ride, BFR check flights etc.”. (I don’t think Marcus
clarified this, but the instructor can also log it as P1, or PIC,
AIUI. If not correct for UK power, somebody please correct me.)

The BGA, which was self-governing and outside the CAA reach, stayed
with RAF practice, and still does. (I expect this will change when
EASA rules, perhaps from Appril onwards. Whatever – I know of no
published decision to change it, yet.)

There are other differences. In the power world, PIC can change during
a flight, without an intervening landing. In gliding, we do not (I
have never heard of anyone trying it.) I was commissioned by the BGA
to do a report on this and other P1/PIC/P2/PUS issues, during which I
asked the CAA for their opinion. Two different officials gave two
totally opposing answers, but the power way is widely practised and
nobody objects.

Another issue I covered was safety pilots. A safety pilot does not
have to be P1/PIC.

Also, the most highly ranked pilot does not have to be P1/PIC – it
depends on the prior agreement and/or the purpose of the flight. For
instance, I (non-instructor) might fly with an instructor – but we
could agree that I am P1/PIC and he/she is P2, if it is a non-
instructional flight. If push were to come to shove in that situation,
I really would have the right and duty to stay in command (unless
incapacitated). An example might be a private, non- instructor owner,
flying his/her own high performance 2-seater, cross country in which
he /she is well qualified and experienced, with an instructor who only
did one cross country, 20 years ago (for Silver badge), and has never
done a real field landing. Who is properly PIC?

It also does not depend on seat position. PIC must have adequate
controls. In many 2-seaters that can be either back or front (tandem)
or either side, if controls permit. It is usual for the PIC to have
been checked out to be competent as PIC in that seat position, but
even there perhaps there are exceptions – e.g. the first time a new
type is available. I have known situations (not UK, but it might have
happened here too) where two instructors flew with each other to gain
or regain currency, taking turns as to which would check out whom.

If you want a private version of my paper, email me to ask for it. It
is not for putting into the public domain, but covers a lot more than
you have asked about.

Chris N.