Spanaway crash

[Dave Burton]

Someone got upside down at Spanaway (WA) on Saturday. 1946 red
something, looked a little like a Stinson but I don't think so.
Anybody know more? I have a friend who owns a similar plane. Pilot
injured, pass. OK. Looked like a lovely plane. Shame. Hope the
pilot gets back on their feet soon.
Dave
C172 RNT,
RV6, wings

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Dave Burton > wrote:
>Someone got upside down at Spanaway (WA) on Saturday. 1946 red
>something, looked a little like a Stinson

It's not getting any coverage here (west of Portland, OR) because
a Cessna 340 did a Vmc roll (speculation based on witness reports of a
single engine approach followed by a go-around for traffic on the runway
followed by an inverted impact) into the ground near Scappoose (SPB)
on the same day.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:04:39 GMT, (Dave Burton)
wrote:

Luscombe.

Word has it it over-ran the runway and flipped over.

Bela P. Havasreti

>Someone got upside down at Spanaway (WA) on Saturday. 1946 red
>something, looked a little like a Stinson but I don't think so.
>Anybody know more? I have a friend who owns a similar plane. Pilot
>injured, pass. OK. Looked like a lovely plane. Shame. Hope the
>pilot gets back on their feet soon.
>Dave
>C172 RNT,
>RV6, wings

[Chris Hoffmann]

A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or was
there some ball-dropping involved?

--
Chris Hoffmann
Student Pilot @ UES
<40 hours

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Chris Hoffmann > wrote:
>A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or was
>there some ball-dropping involved?

Another plane was on the runway.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Newps]

Ben Jackson wrote:

> Another plane was on the runway.

I don't get it. Land the damn plane. Move to one side or the other,
whatever.

[Bob Gardner]

When you get your twin rating, Ben, and I know that you will, remember this:
Below 200 feet with an engine out, put it down somewhere...anywhere...do not
even think of going around.

Bob Gardner

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:VrLkb.827648$Ho3.232592@sccrnsc03...
> In article >,
> Chris Hoffmann > wrote:
> >A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or
was
> >there some ball-dropping involved?
>
> Another plane was on the runway.
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

[Big John]

Lost a good friend on SE. Commander of Vermont ANG F-89 Squadron.

Had and engine explode and was cleared to land SE. Another Aircraft
(civilian on joint use airport) pulled on R/W without clearance and he
took it around SE. On downwid the bird blew up killing both him and
his Radar Observer.

Also lost a very good friend trying to come aboard the carrier in a
F2H3 on SE, but that's another story.

Big John


On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:24:01 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>When you get your twin rating, Ben, and I know that you will, remember this:
>Below 200 feet with an engine out, put it down somewhere...anywhere...do not
>even think of going around.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
>"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
>news:VrLkb.827648$Ho3.232592@sccrnsc03...
>> In article >,
>> Chris Hoffmann > wrote:
>> >A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or
>was
>> >there some ball-dropping involved?
>>
>> Another plane was on the runway.
>>
>> --
>> Ben Jackson
>> >
>> http://www.ben.com/
>

[David H]

It was incorrectly identified as a Cessna by the local TV news.

It sure looked like a Luscombe to me (even upside down and bent).

David H
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying


Dave Burton wrote:

> Someone got upside down at Spanaway (WA) on Saturday. 1946 red
> something, looked a little like a Stinson but I don't think so.
> Anybody know more? I have a friend who owns a similar plane. Pilot
> injured, pass. OK. Looked like a lovely plane. Shame. Hope the
> pilot gets back on their feet soon.
> Dave
> C172 RNT,
> RV6, wings

[Ben Jackson]

In article <l6Tkb.837378$uu5.148065@sccrnsc04>,
Bob Gardner > wrote:
>When you get your twin rating, Ben, and I know that you will, remember this:
>Below 200 feet with an engine out, put it down somewhere...anywhere...do not
>even think of going around.

One key thing I've learned about flying it's that there are plenty of
things that sound easy on the ground but are much harder in practice.
For example, it's better to run off the end of the runway at 20kts than
to hit the tops of the trees at 60kts. But when actually confronted
with landing long on a runway with trees obstructing the go-around it's
a lot harder to commit to landing and overrunning than it is to try the
go-around.

When I read about an accident like this one I try to take away not only
the obvious lesson but also put myself in the position of the pilot and
think about why he didn't make the right decision. A decision he probably
could have made and argued for in an FBO lounge the day before but was
unable to make in flight.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[John Galban]

Newps > wrote in message news:<YYRkb.837091$uu5.148275@sccrnsc04>...
> Ben Jackson wrote:
>
> > Another plane was on the runway.
>
> I don't get it. Land the damn plane. Move to one side or the other,
> whatever.

Yep. That's where parallel taxiways come in handy. Looks like SPB
has two of them.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[David H]

John Galban wrote:

> Newps > wrote in message news:<YYRkb.837091$uu5.148275@sccrnsc04>...
> > Ben Jackson wrote:
> >
> > > Another plane was on the runway.
> >
> > I don't get it. Land the damn plane. Move to one side or the other,
> > whatever.
>
> Yep. That's where parallel taxiways come in handy. Looks like SPB
> has two of them.

Indeed. Scappoose has no shortage of available concrete - a long, wide runway, two good
sized parallel taxiways, some decent sized ramps, and it sits surrounded by large, flat,
open fields. Sure, there are some trees here and there and an occasional
fence/road/structure nearby - it's not quite the Bonneville Salt Flats - but if you were
going to come down someplace, this is a pretty forgiving location with lots of options
available. Heck, the taxiways there are a lot better than plenty of runways I've landed
on.

David H
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

[Bob Gardner]

I can't put myself in the place of a military pilot because I have never
flown anything that heavy or with that much power. Sad stories, both, and my
civil jet experience just doesn't match up. Carrier pilots are a breed
apart...I salute them.

Bob Gardner

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Lost a good friend on SE. Commander of Vermont ANG F-89 Squadron.
>
> Had and engine explode and was cleared to land SE. Another Aircraft
> (civilian on joint use airport) pulled on R/W without clearance and he
> took it around SE. On downwid the bird blew up killing both him and
> his Radar Observer.
>
> Also lost a very good friend trying to come aboard the carrier in a
> F2H3 on SE, but that's another story.
>
> Big John
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:24:01 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
> >When you get your twin rating, Ben, and I know that you will, remember
this:
> >Below 200 feet with an engine out, put it down somewhere...anywhere...do
not
> >even think of going around.
> >
> >Bob Gardner
> >
> >"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
> >news:VrLkb.827648$Ho3.232592@sccrnsc03...
> >> In article >,
> >> Chris Hoffmann > wrote:
> >> >A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or
> >was
> >> >there some ball-dropping involved?
> >>
> >> Another plane was on the runway.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ben Jackson
> >> >
> >> http://www.ben.com/
> >
>

[Big John]

Bob

You go to lots of funerals.

Navy Sq I was with had 13 pilots. Killed four before Sq went aboard
the Yorktown to go to WestPac.

You always say, "it won't happend to me" and go fly.

Big John


On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:23:29 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>I can't put myself in the place of a military pilot because I have never
>flown anything that heavy or with that much power. Sad stories, both, and my
>civil jet experience just doesn't match up. Carrier pilots are a breed
>apart...I salute them.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Lost a good friend on SE. Commander of Vermont ANG F-89 Squadron.
>>
>> Had and engine explode and was cleared to land SE. Another Aircraft
>> (civilian on joint use airport) pulled on R/W without clearance and he
>> took it around SE. On downwid the bird blew up killing both him and
>> his Radar Observer.
>>
>> Also lost a very good friend trying to come aboard the carrier in a
>> F2H3 on SE, but that's another story.
>>
>> Big John
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:24:01 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >When you get your twin rating, Ben, and I know that you will, remember
>this:
>> >Below 200 feet with an engine out, put it down somewhere...anywhere...do
>not
>> >even think of going around.
>> >
>> >Bob Gardner
>> >
>> >"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
>> >news:VrLkb.827648$Ho3.232592@sccrnsc03...
>> >> In article >,
>> >> Chris Hoffmann > wrote:
>> >> >A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or
>> >was
>> >> >there some ball-dropping involved?
>> >>
>> >> Another plane was on the runway.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Ben Jackson
>> >> >
>> >> http://www.ben.com/
>> >
>>
>

[Robert Perkins]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 05:39:55 GMT, "Chris Hoffmann"
> wrote:

>A guy's got an engine out, and he has to go around? Is this normal, or was
>there some ball-dropping involved?

Scappoose is uncontrolled and *busy*. Not as busy as Aurora State a
bit further south, but still, I haven't been in there at any time in
the last year when there wasn't at least one other aircraft in the
pattern.

Folks are right, tho. You can put a light single down on the taxiway,
there's flat grass on the field, and there shouldn't have been a go
around.

I haven't seen more than a blurb on the radio news and a three
paragraph thing on oregonlive.com. Any better place to go for a report
on the Scappoose accident?

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Chris Hoffmann]

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_101803_news_plane_crash.17360595.h
tml

This from KGW, the site requires registration.

SCAPPOOSE, Ore. -- A preliminary report from the National Transportation
Safety Board says investigators don't know why a small plane crashed in
Scappoose last weekend, killing everyone on board.

The Cessna 340 crashed near the Scappoose Airport late Saturday afternoon
and burst into flames.

Columbia County authorities Monday identified the victims as James
Gillespie, 72, and Jessie Gillespie, 73, of the Steilacom, Wash. area. The
relationship of the victims was not immediately clear.

Federal aviation records indicate that James Gillespie, an accomplished
pilot registered as a flight instructor, owned the plane.

NTSB investigators spent much of Sunday sifting through the plane's charred
wreckage. They said witnesses are providing clues to what may have happened.

Witnesses said that as the Cessna was about to land, another plane took off
from the same runway. The Cessna's pilot then decided to go back around to
again attempt landing.

The plane crashed in a field near the intersection of Moore and Ring-a-ring
Road, northeast of the airport.

NTSB investigator Debra Eckrote said everything appeared normal until the
Cessna's pilot turned back toward the airport.

"It then started to lose altitude as it completed not quite a 180-degree
turn and then the witness saw that the nose dropped, the left wing
dropped.it started an inverted altitude," said Eckrote.

It is not known whether the two pilots were communicating. Scappoose Airport
is uncontrolled, meaning pilots are not required to communicate with one
another in the airfield.

--
Chris Hoffmann
Student Pilot @ UES
<40 hours

[Robert Perkins]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:45:57 GMT, "Chris Hoffmann"
> wrote:

(from the KGW report)
>It is not known whether the two pilots were communicating. Scappoose Airport
>is uncontrolled, meaning pilots are not required to communicate with one
>another in the airfield.

News to me. I thought the regs stated that if you had a radio, you had
to use it.

The KEX radio report I heard the following Monday reported "The pilot
was under 'visual flight rules' which means he was flying by reference
to what he could see, rather than using the onboard instruments."

(And to think, I spend time in every pattern looking at that
altimeter...)

Clearly most reporters need to get the *&^&*%^%^& out of aviation
reporting.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Mike Culver]

This Luscombe belongs to John Russo, an older gentlemen who lives at
the Spanaway airpark. I flew back from central Oregon with him (as a
flight of two) last summer. Really sad to hear about the accident.

Mike

(Ben Jackson) wrote in message news:<_QXkb.827736$YN5.865593@sccrnsc01>...
> In article <l6Tkb.837378$uu5.148065@sccrnsc04>,
> Bob Gardner > wrote:
> >When you get your twin rating, Ben, and I know that you will, remember this:
> >Below 200 feet with an engine out, put it down somewhere...anywhere...do not
> >even think of going around.
>
> One key thing I've learned about flying it's that there are plenty of
> things that sound easy on the ground but are much harder in practice.
> For example, it's better to run off the end of the runway at 20kts than
> to hit the tops of the trees at 60kts. But when actually confronted
> with landing long on a runway with trees obstructing the go-around it's
> a lot harder to commit to landing and overrunning than it is to try the
> go-around.
>
> When I read about an accident like this one I try to take away not only
> the obvious lesson but also put myself in the position of the pilot and
> think about why he didn't make the right decision. A decision he probably
> could have made and argued for in an FBO lounge the day before but was
> unable to make in flight.

[Newps]

Robert Perkins wrote:

>
> News to me. I thought the regs stated that if you had a radio, you had
> to use it.

No, the radio is optional.


>
> The KEX radio report I heard the following Monday reported "The pilot
> was under 'visual flight rules' which means he was flying by reference
> to what he could see, rather than using the onboard instruments."

That's accurate.

[Snowbird]

Robert Perkins > wrote in message >...

> News to me. I thought the regs stated that if you had a radio, you had
> to use it.

Would you mind sharing with us what regulation
says this?

Thanks,
Sydney

[David H]

Robert Perkins wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:45:57 GMT, "Chris Hoffmann"
> > wrote:
>
> (from the KGW report)
> >It is not known whether the two pilots were communicating. Scappoose Airport
> >is uncontrolled, meaning pilots are not required to communicate with one
> >another in the airfield.
>
> News to me. I thought the regs stated that if you had a radio, you had
> to use it.

Nope. It's pretty dumb NOT to use the radio you have (especially at a field
like Scappoose that's often pretty busy), but it's not reequired by the regs.

David H
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

[David Brooks]

"David H" > wrote in message
...
> Nope. It's pretty dumb NOT to use the radio you have (especially at a
field
> like Scappoose that's often pretty busy), but it's not reequired by the
regs.

Surely, being dumb is a violation of 91.13?

-- David Brooks

(not sure whether to add the smiley or not :-) )

[G.R. Patterson III]

Robert Perkins wrote:
>
> News to me. I thought the regs stated that if you had a radio, you had
> to use it.

You're probably thinking of the transponder.

> Clearly most reporters need to get the *&^&*%^%^& out of aviation
> reporting.

Most reporters are abysmally ignorant of anything other than the peculiarities
of their own jobs and hobbies. If expertise in the subject matter were required,
the profession would be eliminated.

George Patterson
To a pilot, altitude is like money - it is possible that having too much
could prove embarassing, but having too little is always fatal.

[Robert Perkins]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 04:03:07 GMT, Newps > wrote:

>> The KEX radio report I heard the following Monday reported "The pilot
>> was under 'visual flight rules' which means he was flying by reference
>> to what he could see, rather than using the onboard instruments."
>
>That's accurate.

It's difficult, in a written medium, to convey the level of confidence
the reporter has in saying that, that flying VFR was more risky than
flying by reference to the instruments.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card