Manual [Archive] - AviationBanter

kirk.stant

January 18th 12, 12:05 AM

On Jan 17, 3:56*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 4:40 pm, bish > wrote:
>
> > Hi
> > I have to bring the owner manual when I fly my LS 6.
> > I have a copy on a memory key. Is it *acceptable?
> > Regards
> > S6
>
> I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that the FAA would say if you
> can't read it on the spot, anywhere, anytime, it isn't acceptable. I
> printed my LS8 manual out double sided with 4 pages on each surface of
> a 8.5 by 11 sheet, and I carry that. It's a bit small, but very
> readable. I also carry a PDF copy of the manual on my iPhone. Good
> luck!
>
> -John

I took my manual to a Kinkos and had them reduce copy it at about 1/4
size, then laminated the front and back covers, and spiral bound the
little thing. Now small enough to stick anywhere in the cockpit, and
still fully usable.

It's lasted over 10 years stuck in the pouch that comes with the
LS6...

Kirk
66

lanebush

January 18th 12, 12:25 AM

On Jan 17, 7:05*pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 3:56*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 17, 4:40 pm, bish > wrote:
>
> > > Hi
> > > I have to bring the owner manual when I fly my LS 6.
> > > I have a copy on a memory key. Is it *acceptable?
> > > Regards
> > > S6
>
> > I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that the FAA would say if you
> > can't read it on the spot, anywhere, anytime, it isn't acceptable. I
> > printed my LS8 manual out double sided with 4 pages on each surface of
> > a 8.5 by 11 sheet, and I carry that. It's a bit small, but very
> > readable. I also carry a PDF copy of the manual on my iPhone. Good
> > luck!
>
> > -John
>
> I took my manual to a Kinkos and had them reduce copy it at about 1/4
> size, then laminated the front and back covers, and spiral bound the
> little thing. *Now small enough to stick anywhere in the cockpit, and
> still fully usable.
>
> It's lasted over 10 years stuck in the pouch that comes with the
> LS6...
>
> Kirk
> 66

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

Dan Marotta

January 18th 12, 02:44 AM

I don't think I ever carried the manual in my LS-6, but I know that it would
easily slip behind the seat. Seriously, if you need to be reading the
manual in flight, you shouldn't be flying...

"lanebush" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 17, 7:05 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 3:56 pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 17, 4:40 pm, bish > wrote:
>
> > > Hi
> > > I have to bring the owner manual when I fly my LS 6.
> > > I have a copy on a memory key. Is it acceptable?
> > > Regards
> > > S6
>
> > I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that the FAA would say if you
> > can't read it on the spot, anywhere, anytime, it isn't acceptable. I
> > printed my LS8 manual out double sided with 4 pages on each surface of
> > a 8.5 by 11 sheet, and I carry that. It's a bit small, but very
> > readable. I also carry a PDF copy of the manual on my iPhone. Good
> > luck!
>
> > -John
>
> I took my manual to a Kinkos and had them reduce copy it at about 1/4
> size, then laminated the front and back covers, and spiral bound the
> little thing. Now small enough to stick anywhere in the cockpit, and
> still fully usable.
>
> It's lasted over 10 years stuck in the pouch that comes with the
> LS6...
>
> Kirk
> 66

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

T[_2_]

January 18th 12, 02:48 AM

>
> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

T

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

January 18th 12, 02:55 AM

On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
>>
>> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
>> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>>
>> XF
>
> That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

jcarlyle

January 18th 12, 03:21 AM

On Jan 17, 9:55 pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

It turns out that the LS8 manual is listed on the Minimum Equipment
list, in an approved section of the manual. Since in 4-up format it
only measures 4.25 by 5.5 inches, weighs just a few ounces, and
disappears in the pouch behind the seat, it's easy to carry it. Why
risk exposing yourself to bureaucratic grief over something that
inconsequential? Even if the lack of a manual hasn't been the subject
of a safety or enforcement action in the US yet, Mr. Murphy never
rests...

-John

aerodyne

January 18th 12, 03:27 AM

"T" is correct. Check the TCDS and the AFM. I would not be suprised
if they say an "approved copy" of the AFM must be carried on board,
and accessible to the pilot. That would eliminate reduced size or
electronic copies in my "book".

That said, do what is safe, then try to be legal. Know the difference
and consequences of the Rules of Nature vs the Rules of Man!

T[_2_]

January 18th 12, 05:16 AM

On Jan 17, 6:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
>
>
> >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> >> XF
>
> > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > minimum placards.
>
> I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

I know the LS4 and most LS are probably included, also the Grob 103
Twin II require the POH in the glider.
Never know when the ramp check agent will show up.

T

lanebush

January 18th 12, 12:20 PM

On Jan 18, 12:16*am, T > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 6:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> > >> XF
>
> > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > > minimum placards.
>
> > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> I know the LS4 and most LS are probably included, also the Grob 103
> Twin II require the POH in the glider.
> Never know when the ramp check agent will show up.
>
> T

I believe aircraft type certificated after March 1, 1979 have
different manual requirements than those typed prior (FAR 21.5).

Bill D

January 18th 12, 03:20 PM

Bill D

January 18th 12, 03:33 PM

On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
>
>
> >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> >> XF
>
> > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > minimum placards.
>
> I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.

Dave[_26_]

January 18th 12, 05:27 PM

On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> > >> XF
>
> > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > > minimum placards.
>
> > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
> AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
> board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
> glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
> in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)
>
> A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
> plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
> The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? Anyway,
it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
Rotorcraft Flight Manual? My type certified glider has an approved
"Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
or any combination I choose?

As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. Para 7 says
"Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing here:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8620_2A.pdf

-Dave (not a lawyer)

kirk.stant

January 18th 12, 06:26 PM

On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> > >> XF
>
> > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > > minimum placards.
>
> > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
> AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
> board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
> glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
> in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)
>
> A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
> plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
> The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

Bill D

January 18th 12, 07:44 PM

On Jan 18, 10:27*am, Dave > wrote:
> On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> > > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> > > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> > > >> XF
>
> > > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > > > minimum placards.
>
> > > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> > > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> > > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > > email me)
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> > > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> > Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
> > AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
> > board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
> > glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
> > in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)
>
> > A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
> > plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
> > The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> 14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? *Anyway,
> it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
> glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
> Rotorcraft Flight Manual? *My type certified glider has an approved
> "Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
> 2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
> an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
> this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
> approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
> material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
> that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
> or any combination I choose?
>
> As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. *Para 7 says
> "Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
> not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
> language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing here:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8620_2A.pdf
>
> -Dave (not a lawyer)

Yes, 91.9 not 91.309.

91.9 requires the AFM to be on board and that the aircraft be operated
in accordance with it.

8620.21a is referring to "mandatory" service bulletins not being
enforceable.

Bill D

January 18th 12, 07:51 PM

On Jan 18, 11:26*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> > > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> > > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> > > >> XF
>
> > > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > > > minimum placards.
>
> > > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> > > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> > > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > > email me)
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> > > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> > Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
> > AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
> > board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
> > glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
> > in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)
>
> > A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
> > plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
> > The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
> came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
> as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
> still readable) copy not also be an AFM?
>
> Curious minds want to know!
>
> Kirk
> 66

AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

bish

January 18th 12, 07:58 PM

On 18 jan, 14:51, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jan 18, 11:26*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> > > > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
> > > > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> > > > >> XF
>
> > > > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
> > > > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
> > > > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
> > > > > minimum placards.
>
> > > > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
> > > > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
> > > > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > > > email me)
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> > > > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> > > Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
> > > AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
> > > board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
> > > glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
> > > in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)
>
> > > A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
> > > plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
> > > The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
> > came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
> > as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
> > still readable) copy not also be an AFM?
>
> > Curious minds want to know!
>
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> AFM = Approved Flight Manual. * The reason they want the original AFM
> on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
> from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. *A
> copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. *AFAIK, a
> copy can be used for "educational" purposes.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

Well, nobody answered my question, can I use a copy on a memory stick?
Thank you
S6

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

January 18th 12, 09:07 PM

On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:
> On Jan 18, 11:26 am, > wrote:

>>
>> What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
>> came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
>> as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
>> still readable) copy not also be an AFM?
>>
>> Curious minds want to know!
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>
> AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
> on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
> from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
> copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
> copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?

Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
minutes to find.

Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Wayne Paul

January 18th 12, 09:19 PM

Eric,

It is threads like this that makes me thankful that I am flying a "home
built" sailplane!!! The closest thing to a manual is the one-page
"flight-test" recommendations from the building instructions.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F'
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ...

On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:
> On Jan 18, 11:26 am, > wrote:

>>
>> What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
>> came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
>> as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
>> still readable) copy not also be an AFM?
>>
>> Curious minds want to know!
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>
> AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
> on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
> from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
> copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
> copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?

Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
minutes to find.

Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Hagbard Celine

January 18th 12, 11:18 PM

What does "practically speaking" or for that matter realism have to do
with anything? We're talking about aviation regulations here! :)

I keep a the hard copy of my flight manual on board when I'm flying
but I too have tried to imagine how it might be of use in a single
seat glider. Damn, I'm in a spin! How do I recover from it again?
*rustle rustle rustle* Ah! Here it is: "Full opposite rudder
and"...CRASH!!!

I've been helping a friend import a glider and the geniuses
responsible for the type certificate decided that the minimum
equipment they required in it have to be a SPECIFIC MAKE AND MODEL of
ASI, altimeter and seatbelt! The Canadian TCDS for the Slingsby
Kestrel includes "a back type parachute" period. I'm glad my 15's TCDS
just says "an airspeed indicator, an altimeter calibrated in feet, a
magnetic direction indicator, seatbelts including shoulder straps and
a parachute or a back cushion if no parachute is worn" and leaves it
up to the owner's discretion as to what equipment is installed in
order to fulfill those requirements.

On Jan 18, 1:07*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 18, 11:26 am, > *wrote:
>
> >> What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
> >> came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
> >> as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
> >> still readable) copy not also be an AFM?
>
> >> Curious minds want to know!
>
> >> Kirk
> >> 66
>
> > AFM = Approved Flight Manual. * The reason they want the original AFM
> > on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
> > from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. *A
> > copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. *AFAIK, a
> > copy can be used for "educational" purposes.
>
> Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
> flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?
>
> Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
> something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
> wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
> something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
> memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
> minutes to find.
>
> Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
> wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
> there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
> you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Roger Fowler[_2_]

January 19th 12, 01:58 AM

Going back to the original question, if you have an LS-6C that is
certificated in the standard category and the Flight Manual says it must be
in the aircraft, then you need a manual you can read in the aircraft.

Most LS-6's are experimental and you don't need a flight manual unless the
Operating Limitations say you need it. I have never seen that, though.

Roger

At 23:18 18 January 2012, Hagbard Celine wrote:
>What does "practically speaking" or for that matter realism have to do
>with anything? We're talking about aviation regulations here! :)
>
>I keep a the hard copy of my flight manual on board when I'm flying
>but I too have tried to imagine how it might be of use in a single
>seat glider. Damn, I'm in a spin! How do I recover from it again?
>*rustle rustle rustle* Ah! Here it is: "Full opposite rudder
>and"...CRASH!!!
>
>I've been helping a friend import a glider and the geniuses
>responsible for the type certificate decided that the minimum
>equipment they required in it have to be a SPECIFIC MAKE AND MODEL of
>ASI, altimeter and seatbelt! The Canadian TCDS for the Slingsby
>Kestrel includes "a back type parachute" period. I'm glad my 15's TCDS
>just says "an airspeed indicator, an altimeter calibrated in feet, a
>magnetic direction indicator, seatbelts including shoulder straps and
>a parachute or a back cushion if no parachute is worn" and leaves it
>up to the owner's discretion as to what equipment is installed in
>order to fulfill those requirements.
>
>On Jan 18, 1:07=A0pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 18, 11:26 am, "kirk.stant" =A0wrote:
>>
>> >> What is the definition of an AFM? =A0Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
>> >> came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the
same
>> >> as the original AFM? =A0And how would a reduced size (but obviously
>> >> still readable) copy not also be an AFM?
>>
>> >> Curious minds want to know!
>>
>> >> Kirk
>> >> 66
>>
>> > AFM =3D Approved Flight Manual. =A0 The reason they want the original
>A=
>FM
>> > on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
>> > from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. =A0A
>> > copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. =A0AFAIK, a
>> > copy can be used for "educational" purposes.
>>
>> Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
>> flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?
>>
>> Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
>> something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
>> wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
>> something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
>> memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
>> minutes to find.
>>
>> Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
>> wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
>> there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>> email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
>> you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
>

Ralph Jones[_3_]

January 19th 12, 07:33 PM

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:44:06 -0700, "Dan Marotta"
> wrote:

>I don't think I ever carried the manual in my LS-6, but I know that it would
>easily slip behind the seat. Seriously, if you need to be reading the
>manual in flight, you shouldn't be flying...
>
>
I can just see the NTSB report: "Cause of accident: pages 49 & 50 of
the POH stuck together"...

rj

Bill D

January 19th 12, 08:54 PM

On Jan 18, 6:58*pm, Roger Fowler > wrote:
> Going back to the original question, if you have an LS-6C that is
> certificated in the standard category and the Flight Manual says it must be
> in the aircraft, then you need a manual you can read in the aircraft.
>
> Most LS-6's are experimental and you don't need a flight manual unless the
> Operating Limitations say you need it. *I have never seen that, though.
>
> Roger
>

My pre-1992 operations letter says, "must be operated in accordance
with manual". The manual says, "must be kept in glider". There may
be exceptions but every Experimental - Exhibition & Racing ops letter
I've read has similar wording.

Keeping the manual in the glider isn't entirely about reading it in
flight - even if that were possible. It's about keeping an important
(and current) document located with the glider so it can be easily be
found for reference should the need arise. Long experience says if a
manual is kept separately, you can't find it when you need it.

[email protected]

August 7th 12, 12:33 AM

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:44:18 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
> On Jan 18, 10:27*am, Dave > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > >> You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
>
> > > > >> the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.
>
> >
>
> > > > >> XF
>
> >
>
> > > > > That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
>
> > > > > manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
>
> > > > > the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
>
> > > > > minimum placards.
>
> >
>
> > > > I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
>
> > > > the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
>
> > > > anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?
>
> >
>
> > > > --
>
> > > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> > > > email me)
>
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
>
> > > > you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>
> >
>
> > > Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
>
> > > AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
>
> > > board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
>
> > > glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
>
> > > in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)
>
> >
>
> > > A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
>
> > > plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
>
> > > The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> >
>
> > 14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? *Anyway,
>
> > it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
>
> > glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
>
> > Rotorcraft Flight Manual? *My type certified glider has an approved
>
> > "Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
>
> > 2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
>
> > an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
>
> > this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
>
> > approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
>
> > material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
>
> > that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
>
> > or any combination I choose?
>
> >
>
> > As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. *Para 7 says
>
> > "Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
>
> > not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
>
> > language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing here:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8620_2A.pdf
>
> >
>
> > -Dave (not a lawyer)
>
>
>
> Yes, 91.9 not 91.309.
>
>
>
> 91.9 requires the AFM to be on board and that the aircraft be operated
>
> in accordance with it.
>
>
>
> 8620.21a is referring to "mandatory" service bulletins not being
>
> enforceable.

91.9 refers to an "Airplane" & "Rotorcraft". A Sailplane is neither as it is an "Aircraft". An Aircraft does not have an engine. That is the big difference. 91.9 does not apply to an Aircraft.

Andy[_1_]

August 7th 12, 01:22 AM

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:33:25 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
"Yes. The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector. AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on board. An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309) A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider. The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board."

The FAA term AFM stands for Airplane Flight Manual to distinguish it from the FAA term Rotorcraft Flight Manual. Ref 14 CFR 1.2 Definitions. - "AFM means airplane flight manual".

If you are operating an airplane you may need to carry an AFM but, under FAA definitions, a glider is not an airplane. All the limitations of an FAA experimental certificate are defined in the operating limitations and no reference is typically made to any JAR requirement. If the operating limitation neither require, nor refer to, a flight manual then none is required.

14 CFR 91.309 relates to towing and seems to be unrelated to this topic.

The requirements for an AFM are defined in 14 CFR 23.1581 General - but part 23 does not define requirement or regulations for gliders.

I confirmed the non-applicability of an AFM to my experimental glider with AOPA legal services just last week as part of my preparation for a FSDO inspection of my glider.

No harm in carrying one though, I do carry mine. However, carrying it is very different from asseting that there is an FAA requirement to either carry it or comply with it.

Andy