Winch Clinic

[Frank Whiteley]

As found on Barnstormers.com

GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone: 619-436-8010

[JohnDeRosa]

On Jan 19, 7:16*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting************619-436-8010

Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 23, 11:13*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> On Jan 19, 7:16*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> > GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> > INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> > with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> > 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> > training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> > of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> > Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> > Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting************619-436-8010
>
> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
> aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John

Several 2-33's are fitted with 'cg hooks', as are 2-22's. I suspect
this clinic is using the 2-33 as the other available two seaters may
be experimental. Perhaps they can find a commercial K-21, L-23 or
G-103 in the area with a CG hook and qualified instructor. Launch
height will differ by several hundred feet on a decent run.

I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
problems. My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. Not
aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. Plan B is cut
the rope.

Frank Whiteley

[Dan Marotta]

Me, too! Lots of 2-33 launches at Black Forest. Our 2-33 had a DG hook and
launched just fine. I've never had difficulty releasing, even under
tension.


"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 23, 11:13 am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> > GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> > INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> > with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> > 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> > training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> > of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> > Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> > Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA •
> > Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 619-436-8010
>
> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
> aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John

Several 2-33's are fitted with 'cg hooks', as are 2-22's. I suspect
this clinic is using the 2-33 as the other available two seaters may
be experimental. Perhaps they can find a commercial K-21, L-23 or
G-103 in the area with a CG hook and qualified instructor. Launch
height will differ by several hundred feet on a decent run.

I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
problems. My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. Not
aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. Plan B is cut
the rope.

Frank Whiteley

[BobW]

On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > wrote:
>> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > wrote:
>>
>>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>>
>>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
>>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
>>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
>>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
>>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
>>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
>>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
>>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 619-436-8010
>>
>> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
>> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
>> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
>> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
>> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
>> aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John
>
>
<Snip...>
>
> I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
> problems. My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. Not
> aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
> I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. Plan B is cut
> the rope.
>
> Frank Whiteley

"What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
(single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.

Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
worked without drama.

Regards,
Bob W.

[Brad[_2_]]

On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW > wrote:
> On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > *wrote:
> >> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > *wrote:
>
> >>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> >>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> >>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> >>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> >>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> >>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> >>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> >>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> >>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010
>
> >> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
> >> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
> >> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
> >> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
> >> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
> >> aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John
>
> <Snip...>
>
> > I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
> > problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
> > aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
> > I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
> > the rope.
>
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> "What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
> SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
> noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
> all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
> top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
> successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
> (single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
> close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.
>
> Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
> worked without drama.
>
> Regards,
> Bob W.

So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
mounted Tost unit?

That would be great!

Brad

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jan 23, 4:10*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > *wrote:
> > >> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > *wrote:
>
> > >>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> > >>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> > >>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> > >>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> > >>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> > >>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> > >>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> > >>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> > >>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010
>
> > >> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
> > >> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
> > >> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
> > >> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
> > >> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
> > >> aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John
>
> > <Snip...>
>
> > > I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
> > > problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
> > > aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
> > > I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
> > > the rope.
>
> > > Frank Whiteley
>
> > "What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
> > SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
> > noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
> > all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
> > top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
> > successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
> > (single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
> > close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.
>
> > Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
> > worked without drama.
>
> > Regards,
> > Bob W.
>
> So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
> mounted Tost unit?
>
> That would be great!
>
> Brad

you might want to ask Bob K first :)

Stan Hall was not a fan of winch launching on a nosehook and from what
i've read made it pretty clear that he did not design the cherokee for
ground launch loads. Didn't stop some people though and I know of at
least one winch launch rip the wings off fatal in a Cherokee II.
Although odds are there was something not quite right with the wings
too. There is a Cherokee in Australia that is regularly winch
launched although that is with a tost hook on the CG and firmly
attached to the fuselage bulkhead that includes wing attach at the top
and main wheel at the bottom, in other words, very tough. I'll stick
with aerotow.

[John Ferguson[_2_]]

>So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
>mounted Tost unit?
>
>That would be great!
>
>Brad
>

No, that's not a clever idea and if you have a modern glider it will be
prohibited by the flight manual

[John Ferguson[_2_]]

>So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
>mounted Tost unit?
>
>That would be great!
>
>Brad
>

No, that's not a clever idea and if you have a modern glider it will be
prohibited by the flight manual

[Brad[_2_]]

On Jan 23, 2:25*pm, John Ferguson > wrote:
> >So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
> >mounted Tost unit?
>
> >That would be great!
>
> >Brad
>
> No, that's not a clever idea and if you have a modern glider it will be
> prohibited by the flight manual

I have a modern glider, but since I usually don't agree with what the
gubbmint tells me I'll ignore the flight manual and just stick a CG
hook on my glider and call it good, and clever!

Brad

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:13:10 -0800 (PST), JohnDeRosa
> wrote:
.... text deleted
>Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
>you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
>especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
>degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
>moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
>aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John

I can't speak to winch launching, but in the 70's our club (auto tow
only) did tens of thousands of auto tows (with no problems) on
Schweizer tow hooks.

Our 2-33 was equipped with both a "forward" hook (not really a nose
hook in today's sense) and an aft "cg" hook. Our 2-22 and 1-26's had
only the standard Schweizer forward hook.

The 2-33 with the cg hook could get a couple of hundred feet more
height than the other ships, but other than that there was no
difference.

To be fair however, on auto tow, there is actually not much load on
the rope at the top of a normal launch. Unlike the winch, the line is
not being pulled in.

Bob

[BobW]

On 1/23/2012 3:10 PM, Brad wrote:
> On Jan 23, 12:51 pm, > wrote:
>> On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > wrote:
>>>> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > wrote:
>>
>>>>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>>
>>>>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
>>>>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
>>>>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
>>>>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
>>>>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
>>>>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
>>>>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
>>>>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 619-436-8010
>>
>>>> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
>>>> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
>>>> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
>>>> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
>>>> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
>>>> aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John
>>
>> <Snip...>
>>
>>> I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
>>> problems. My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. Not
>>> aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
>>> I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. Plan B is cut
>>> the rope.
>>
>>> Frank Whiteley
>>
>> "What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
>> SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
>> noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
>> all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
>> top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
>> successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
>> (single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
>> close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.
>>
>> Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
>> worked without drama.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bob W.
>
> So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
> mounted Tost unit?
>
> That would be great!
>
> Brad

I smell a leg being pulled here...

I didn't think it necessary to note Schweizer hooks have a back release
feature. I seem to have missed ever seeing one on a Tost nose hook.

Just sayin'...

Anally,
Bob W.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 23, 3:10*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > *wrote:
> > >> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > *wrote:
>
> > >>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> > >>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> > >>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> > >>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> > >>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> > >>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> > >>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> > >>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> > >>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010
>
> > >> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
> > >> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
> > >> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
> > >> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
> > >> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
> > >> aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John
>
> > <Snip...>
>
> > > I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
> > > problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
> > > aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
> > > I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
> > > the rope.
>
> > > Frank Whiteley
>
> > "What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
> > SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
> > noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
> > all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
> > top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
> > successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
> > (single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
> > close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.
>
> > Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
> > worked without drama.
>
> > Regards,
> > Bob W.
>
> So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
> mounted Tost unit?
>
> That would be great!
>
> Brad

TOST nose hook won't back release, back to the drawing board you two!

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 23, 3:22*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Jan 23, 4:10*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW > wrote:
>
> > > On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > *wrote:
> > > >> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > *wrote:
>
> > > >>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> > > >>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
> > > >>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
> > > >>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
> > > >>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
> > > >>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
> > > >>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
> > > >>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
> > > >>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010
>
> > > >> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
> > > >> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
> > > >> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
> > > >> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
> > > >> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
> > > >> aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John
>
> > > <Snip...>
>
> > > > I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
> > > > problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
> > > > aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
> > > > I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
> > > > the rope.
>
> > > > Frank Whiteley
>
> > > "What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
> > > SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
> > > noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
> > > all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
> > > top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
> > > successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
> > > (single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
> > > close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.
>
> > > Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
> > > worked without drama.
>
> > > Regards,
> > > Bob W.
>
> > So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
> > mounted Tost unit?
>
> > That would be great!
>
> > Brad
>
> you might want to ask Bob K first :)
>
> Stan Hall was not a fan of winch launching on a nosehook and from what
> i've read made it pretty clear that he did not design the cherokee for
> ground launch loads. *Didn't stop some people though and I know of at
> least one winch launch rip the wings off fatal in a Cherokee II.
> Although odds are there was something not quite right with the wings
> too. *There is a Cherokee in Australia that is regularly winch
> launched although that is with a tost hook on the CG and firmly
> attached to the fuselage bulkhead that includes wing attach at the top
> and main wheel at the bottom, in other words, very tough. *I'll stick
> with aerotow.

Hi Tony,

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001213X27021&key=1
Not a Cherokee, this glider had fluttered previously on an aero tow
launch in Boulder and was refused further launches. Evidence of water
damage in structure. Doubled weak link unknown to winch crew.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001214X42732&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20090615X13631&key=1
Probably responsible for Charis no longer insuring steel wire rope.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/STAGE.AIDS_BRIEF_REPORT_PUB?EV_ID=19790922051039G&NARR_VAR=winch
I thought this was an L-13. I believe the glider impacted several
parked power aircraft.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/STAGE.AIDS_BRIEF_REPORT_PUB?EV_ID=19890611034999G&NARR_VAR=winch
Yoke problem

Still, I find no Cherokee II winch launch incidents. Details please.

I have a FACEBOOK proposition for you.

Frank

[Tony[_5_]]

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=69003&key=0 was the
one I was thinking about, particularly.

There was also a stall/spin during a winch launch in Australia,
although this was likely a pilot problem not a glider problem. Not
clear if it was a nose hook or CG hook.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/mwg-internal/de5fs23hu73ds/progress?id=zZ6wAFQTTM

give me a call in the evening and we can talk.

[Marc]

On Jan 23, 9:57*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> > Stan Hall was not a fan of winch launching on a nosehook and from what
> > i've read made it pretty clear that he did not design the cherokee for
> > ground launch loads. *Didn't stop some people though and I know of at
> > least one winch launch rip the wings off fatal in a Cherokee II.
> > Although odds are there was something not quite right with the wings
> > too. *There is a Cherokee in Australia that is regularly winch
> > launched although that is with a tost hook on the CG and firmly
> > attached to the fuselage bulkhead that includes wing attach at the top
> > and main wheel at the bottom, in other words, very tough. *I'll stick
> > with aerotow.
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001213X27021&key=1
> Not a Cherokee, this glider had fluttered previously on an aero tow
> launch in Boulder and was refused further launches. *Evidence of water
> damage in structure. *Doubled weak link unknown to winch crew.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001214X42732&key=1
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20090615X13631&key=1
> Probably responsible for Charis no longer insuring steel wire rope.
>
> http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/STAGE.AIDS_BRIEF_REPORT_PU...
> I thought this was an L-13. *I believe the glider impacted several
> parked power aircraft.
>
> http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/STAGE.AIDS_BRIEF_REPORT_PU...
> Yoke problem
>
> Still, I find no Cherokee II winch launch incidents. *Details please.
>
> I have a FACEBOOK proposition for you.

I, too, have heard stories of a Cherokee suffering a structural
failure during either a winch or auto tow, specifically at Air
Sailing, which lead to them banning ground launches there. The
closest thing I've been able to find is this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=85473&key=0

Given that the winch we've been building is getting close to test
phase, I expect I'll be hearing a lot more about these accidents
soon...

Marc

[jherzog]

On Jan 19, 7:16*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
As found on Barnstormers.com

GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting************619-436-8010

Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John


In June of 2010, these fine gentlemen trailered a 2-33 with a CG hook and Roman's winch to Estrella Sailport Arizona and gave this clinic for about six of us. It was well organized, a great experience, and I highly recommend the clinic if you are able to attend.

Jordan

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:57:56 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/STAGE.AIDS_BRIEF_REPORT_PUB?
EV_ID=19790922051039G&NARR_VAR=winch
> I thought this was an L-13. I believe the glider impacted several
> parked power aircraft.
>
Off-thread comment *but* this should not, in any way, have been blamed on
the winch driver "misinterpreting a signal".

If the summary cause (glider launched without pilot on board) is correct,
the blame falls squarely on whoever put the cable on the glider. There is
never any excuse for a glider to be attached to a cable until the PIC is
strapped in, has done his checks and is ready to take an immediate launch.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[BobW]

On 1/24/2012 1:40 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:57:56 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
>> http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/STAGE.AIDS_BRIEF_REPORT_PUB?
> EV_ID=19790922051039G&NARR_VAR=winch
>> I thought this was an L-13. I believe the glider impacted several
>> parked power aircraft.
>>
> Off-thread comment *but* this should not, in any way, have been blamed on
> the winch driver "misinterpreting a signal".
>
> If the summary cause (glider launched without pilot on board) is correct,
> the blame falls squarely on whoever put the cable on the glider. There is
> never any excuse for a glider to be attached to a cable until the PIC is
> strapped in, has done his checks and is ready to take an immediate launch.
>

Indeed. Even we colonials recognize the limitations of our NTSB's
investigations into "low profile" accidents. :-)

OTOH, NTSB Final Cause reports on glider accidents *can* enhance one's
critical thinking skills, which isn't all bad for glider pilots...

Bob W.

[alan]

There are two types of TOST releases, The nose release does not back release, bur the CG type does.

As far as the Schweizer goes, it back releases by the ring slipping back and pulling the bail. It is required to check for wear/roughness that would cause problems with the release.

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

>
> Given that the winch we've been building is getting close to test
>
> phase, I expect I'll be hearing a lot more about these accidents
>
> soon...
>
>
>
> Marc

Need a BIG glider to test with?? I have a Janus C with a CG hook....I'll be auto-towing it at the end of October.

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

Never mind.... I just noticed this is an OLD thread.

[Bill D]

On Monday, January 23, 2012 8:26:31 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Jan 23, 3:10*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > On Jan 23, 11:13 am, > *wrote:
>
> > > >> On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank > *wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > >>> As found on Barnstormers.com
>
> >
>
> > > >>> GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
>
> > > >>> INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
>
> > > >>> with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
>
> > > >>> 2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
>
> > > >>> training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
>
> > > >>> of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
>
> > > >>> Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
>
> > > >>> Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010
>
> >
>
> > > >> Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
>
> > > >> you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
>
> > > >> especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
>
> > > >> degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
>
> > > >> moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
>
> > > >> aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John
>
> >
>
> > > <Snip...>
>
> >
>
> > > > I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
>
> > > > problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
>
> > > > aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
>
> > > > I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
>
> > > > the rope.
>
> >
>
> > > > Frank Whiteley
>
> >
>
> > > "What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
>
> > > SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
>
> > > noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
>
> > > all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
>
> > > top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
>
> > > successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
>
> > > (single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
>
> > > close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.
>
> >
>
> > > Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
>
> > > worked without drama.
>
> >
>
> > > Regards,
>
> > > Bob W.
>
> >
>
> > So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
>
> > mounted Tost unit?
>
> >
>
> > That would be great!
>
> >
>
> > Brad
>
>
>
> TOST nose hook won't back release, back to the drawing board you two!

The Lark Tost nose hook would back release. Probably just because they didn't want to stock different hooks at the factory.