Help - I busted into the Class B SEATAC airspace last night, does anyone have any advice ?

[steve mew]

Does anyone have any advice on how I should handle an airspace violation ?
Whats t he procedure and what are the penalties. It was a first time
offense. Here is what I wrote in the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting Form :

A VFR flight was planned in depth with 4 waypoints from KBFI to KPDX. There
were 3 on board (2 Passengers, and Pilot - who filed this report). The
detail of the flight plan included accurate compass vectors, waypoint ETA's
with VOR radials as backup. 1-800 WX BRIEF was called for a weather briefing
and a flight plan was filed approx 10 mintes before the flight. The Aircraft
was equiped for IR flight and had a moving map GPS unit. Takeoff was at 0847
PST from Runway 13L.
Just after take off the pilot opened the flight plan and then experienced
high load conditions due to night lighting and moderate turbulence and wind
shear. A Class B incursion occured, due to load and fixation from several
distractive factors :

1. Turbulence and Wind Shear : Trying to keep the aircraft straight and
level due to turbulent conditions caused loss of awareness of the flight
path.
2. A rear seat passenger was distracting the pilot with a headset
malfunction.
3. The pilot was inexperienced - 115 Hrs Total Time and limited hours at
night although was night current.
4. Deviation from the flight plan. It was intended to originally take the
Vashon Westbound departure but decided on take off to take the Southbound
Departure that was unfamiliar.

2 minutes into the flight the pilot lost spacial awareness and became
disoriented. Concerned that the Aircraft was getting close to the SEATAC
airspace or Renton Airport airspace the pilot took evaisive action and
dumped height to get below 1100 instinctively feeling this was a safe level
in the area. The intention at this point was to return to a path that was
familiar (The Vashon Departure) It was at this point that the Pilot realized
that the aircraft infact was much further south that previously thought. A
visual scan externally confirmed this as an aircraft on finals for SEATAC
was off the starboard side at 3 o'clock approximately 1nm. Further evasive
action was taken by steering at high bank northbound to avoid crossing the
SEATAC centerline in order to avoid the ILS cooridoor.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Shortly afterward the pilot changed to a westerly course to attempt to
intercept the vashon westbound departure that was familiar to him in an
effort to regain spacial awareness. After changing to a westerly path KBFI
tower made contact and requested that in future to notify them of any
departure deviation. The aircraft continued over the shoreline into the
Puget Sound where the turbulence stopped and smooth flight conditions
returned.

At this point a decision was made to terminate the flight and return to
KBFI. A landing was made on the long runway 13R. After landing the Tower
notified the pilot that a telephone call was needed to SEATAC on 206 768
2852.

Chain of Events :

1. In planning the flight in the afternoon it was known that the daytime
weather was IFR. The forecast for take off was VFR but close to minimums and
turbulent.
2. A deviation from the intended westbound departure was made.
3. An unfamiliar departure was flown.
4. Distraction from the rear passenger due to their faulty headset.
5. Evasive actions were taken.
6. Recognizing that A) Incursion occured and B) the conditions were above
skill level the pilot elected to abort the flight and return to KBFI.

Human Performance Considerations :

1. Although licensed to fly in the weather condtitions the pilot was not
experienced to do so effectively.
2. Limited night experience.
3. Bad cockpit management of resources. A GPS unit with moving map
displaying the Class B boundaries was available but the zoom function was
set to a scope of limited use. A misinterpretation of the class B boundaries
was made.

[Peter Gottlieb]

Maybe this isn't the right thing to do but I would call them, listen to what
they have to say, then be very apologetic and explain what happened and that
you are taking steps to assure that it will not occur again.

If you haven't called them yet, call AOPA and ask advice (I have their legal
services plan and that may be required, I don't know).

Peter


"steve mew" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone have any advice on how I should handle an airspace violation ?
> Whats t he procedure and what are the penalties. It was a first time
> offense. Here is what I wrote in the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting Form :
>
> A VFR flight was planned in depth with 4 waypoints from KBFI to KPDX.
There
> were 3 on board (2 Passengers, and Pilot - who filed this report). The
> detail of the flight plan included accurate compass vectors, waypoint
ETA's
> with VOR radials as backup. 1-800 WX BRIEF was called for a weather
briefing
> and a flight plan was filed approx 10 mintes before the flight. The
Aircraft
> was equiped for IR flight and had a moving map GPS unit. Takeoff was at
0847
> PST from Runway 13L.
> Just after take off the pilot opened the flight plan and then experienced
> high load conditions due to night lighting and moderate turbulence and
wind
> shear. A Class B incursion occured, due to load and fixation from several
> distractive factors :
>
> 1. Turbulence and Wind Shear : Trying to keep the aircraft straight and
> level due to turbulent conditions caused loss of awareness of the flight
> path.
> 2. A rear seat passenger was distracting the pilot with a headset
> malfunction.
> 3. The pilot was inexperienced - 115 Hrs Total Time and limited hours at
> night although was night current.
> 4. Deviation from the flight plan. It was intended to originally take the
> Vashon Westbound departure but decided on take off to take the Southbound
> Departure that was unfamiliar.
>
> 2 minutes into the flight the pilot lost spacial awareness and became
> disoriented. Concerned that the Aircraft was getting close to the SEATAC
> airspace or Renton Airport airspace the pilot took evaisive action and
> dumped height to get below 1100 instinctively feeling this was a safe
level
> in the area. The intention at this point was to return to a path that was
> familiar (The Vashon Departure) It was at this point that the Pilot
realized
> that the aircraft infact was much further south that previously thought. A
> visual scan externally confirmed this as an aircraft on finals for SEATAC
> was off the starboard side at 3 o'clock approximately 1nm. Further evasive
> action was taken by steering at high bank northbound to avoid crossing the
> SEATAC centerline in order to avoid the ILS cooridoor.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Shortly afterward the pilot changed to a westerly course to attempt to
> intercept the vashon westbound departure that was familiar to him in an
> effort to regain spacial awareness. After changing to a westerly path KBFI
> tower made contact and requested that in future to notify them of any
> departure deviation. The aircraft continued over the shoreline into the
> Puget Sound where the turbulence stopped and smooth flight conditions
> returned.
>
> At this point a decision was made to terminate the flight and return to
> KBFI. A landing was made on the long runway 13R. After landing the Tower
> notified the pilot that a telephone call was needed to SEATAC on 206 768
> 2852.
>
> Chain of Events :
>
> 1. In planning the flight in the afternoon it was known that the daytime
> weather was IFR. The forecast for take off was VFR but close to minimums
and
> turbulent.
> 2. A deviation from the intended westbound departure was made.
> 3. An unfamiliar departure was flown.
> 4. Distraction from the rear passenger due to their faulty headset.
> 5. Evasive actions were taken.
> 6. Recognizing that A) Incursion occured and B) the conditions were above
> skill level the pilot elected to abort the flight and return to KBFI.
>
> Human Performance Considerations :
>
> 1. Although licensed to fly in the weather condtitions the pilot was not
> experienced to do so effectively.
> 2. Limited night experience.
> 3. Bad cockpit management of resources. A GPS unit with moving map
> displaying the Class B boundaries was available but the zoom function was
> set to a scope of limited use. A misinterpretation of the class B
boundaries
> was made.
>
>

[John Clonts]

steve mew > wrote in message
...
....
>
> At this point a decision was made to terminate the flight and return to
> KBFI. A landing was made on the long runway 13R. After landing the Tower
> notified the pilot that a telephone call was needed to SEATAC on 206 768
> 2852.
>
....

Did you call them? What did they say?

[Ron Natalie]

"steve mew" > wrote in message ...
> Does anyone have any advice on how I should handle an airspace violation ?
> Whats t he procedure and what are the penalties. It was a first time
> offense. Here is what I wrote in the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting Form :

General rule for FAA actions: Rule #1 Keep your mouth shut.

What did the tower say? Unless they need to cover their own butts
over a seperation problem that you caused, chances are nothing.
Except in the DC area these days, class B incursions are let slide all
the time.

[Jeff]

You did not call them as soon as you were on the ground?
They may not require anything of you and just want to inform you that you busted
their class B and so on. I have known people were told to call LAS for the same
reason, nothing came of it, no paper work done.
SEATAC may be more strict, but I would have called them upon landing to see
what they had to say.


steve mew wrote:

> Does anyone have any advice on how I should handle an airspace violation ?
> Whats t he procedure and what are the penalties. It was a first time
> offense. Here is what I wrote in the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting Form :
>
> A VFR flight was planned in depth with 4 waypoints from KBFI to KPDX. There
> were 3 on board (2 Passengers, and Pilot - who filed this report). The
> detail of the flight plan included accurate compass vectors, waypoint ETA's
> with VOR radials as backup. 1-800 WX BRIEF was called for a weather briefing
> and a flight plan was filed approx 10 mintes before the flight. The Aircraft
> was equiped for IR flight and had a moving map GPS unit. Takeoff was at 0847
> PST from Runway 13L.
> Just after take off the pilot opened the flight plan and then experienced
> high load conditions due to night lighting and moderate turbulence and wind
> shear. A Class B incursion occured, due to load and fixation from several
> distractive factors :
>
> 1. Turbulence and Wind Shear : Trying to keep the aircraft straight and
> level due to turbulent conditions caused loss of awareness of the flight
> path.
> 2. A rear seat passenger was distracting the pilot with a headset
> malfunction.
> 3. The pilot was inexperienced - 115 Hrs Total Time and limited hours at
> night although was night current.
> 4. Deviation from the flight plan. It was intended to originally take the
> Vashon Westbound departure but decided on take off to take the Southbound
> Departure that was unfamiliar.
>
> 2 minutes into the flight the pilot lost spacial awareness and became
> disoriented. Concerned that the Aircraft was getting close to the SEATAC
> airspace or Renton Airport airspace the pilot took evaisive action and
> dumped height to get below 1100 instinctively feeling this was a safe level
> in the area. The intention at this point was to return to a path that was
> familiar (The Vashon Departure) It was at this point that the Pilot realized
> that the aircraft infact was much further south that previously thought. A
> visual scan externally confirmed this as an aircraft on finals for SEATAC
> was off the starboard side at 3 o'clock approximately 1nm. Further evasive
> action was taken by steering at high bank northbound to avoid crossing the
> SEATAC centerline in order to avoid the ILS cooridoor.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Shortly afterward the pilot changed to a westerly course to attempt to
> intercept the vashon westbound departure that was familiar to him in an
> effort to regain spacial awareness. After changing to a westerly path KBFI
> tower made contact and requested that in future to notify them of any
> departure deviation. The aircraft continued over the shoreline into the
> Puget Sound where the turbulence stopped and smooth flight conditions
> returned.
>
> At this point a decision was made to terminate the flight and return to
> KBFI. A landing was made on the long runway 13R. After landing the Tower
> notified the pilot that a telephone call was needed to SEATAC on 206 768
> 2852.
>
> Chain of Events :
>
> 1. In planning the flight in the afternoon it was known that the daytime
> weather was IFR. The forecast for take off was VFR but close to minimums and
> turbulent.
> 2. A deviation from the intended westbound departure was made.
> 3. An unfamiliar departure was flown.
> 4. Distraction from the rear passenger due to their faulty headset.
> 5. Evasive actions were taken.
> 6. Recognizing that A) Incursion occured and B) the conditions were above
> skill level the pilot elected to abort the flight and return to KBFI.
>
> Human Performance Considerations :
>
> 1. Although licensed to fly in the weather condtitions the pilot was not
> experienced to do so effectively.
> 2. Limited night experience.
> 3. Bad cockpit management of resources. A GPS unit with moving map
> displaying the Class B boundaries was available but the zoom function was
> set to a scope of limited use. A misinterpretation of the class B boundaries
> was made.

[Craig Prouse]

Jeff wrote:

> You did not call them as soon as you were on the ground?

That's an interesting reading of the post. How were you able to reach any
conclusion as to whether the author did or did not call?


> [some snippage]
> I would have called them upon landing to see what they had to say.

Yeah, when they tell you to call, it's a good idea to call.

He probably did call, and got to talk to the tower supervisor. That person
probably can't say at that exact moment whether or not they plan to pursue
an enforcement action, or whether the FSDO will follow up on it, or whether
it would be beneficial to hire a lawyer, or otherwise answer any number of
questions.

[steve mew]

I did call and they were very understanding. As soon as I landed last night
Twr (118.3) gave me a phone number to call which I did. I 'fessed up and was
very appologetic as I was the idiot, no question. They said not to worry too
much about it as it does happen with low time pilots all the time.
Unfortunately due to the traffic load and new rules since 9/11 they have
filed paperwork but they did say that if the Investigation Board wants to
pursue it they will tell them that I was very cooperative and that I made a
genuine mistake and am very sorry. I did found out from the FAA this morning
that I set off TCAS on 2 big jets on finals - Ouch.!!! The Twr supervisor
has called me a couple of times today and has been really great, very
understanding and supportive. He is going to call again later to let me know
what the radar trace looks like.

Bottom line is I think I may get away with a warning letter and some
remedial work . However, if they do suspend my license, I will eat it up and
ask for an extra slice of humble pie for dessert. I have absolutely no
excuse, I knew better and I went against my own judgment. I knew it wasn't a
good idea to go and I went anyway, the biggest mistake a pilot can make. I
had a bad feeling on the ground and I chose to ignore it. It was gusting on
the field at 18kts for Petes sake !! What was I thinking ??. Winds aloft
were 33 kts @ 3000

It's been a wake up call. I have to say that I am very lucky to be on the
ground today as there were moments I wasn't sure we were going to make it
back to BFI.
I've got a 115 hours, half way through I.R. Part 141 and have become a bit
over confident and complacent. I have forgotten how really inexperienced low
time like this is. I am still learning and when I've got 5000 hrs I will
still be learning. The best pilots are the old pilots who've made it that
far. Not because they were Chuck Yeager's but becuse they knew their limits
and knew how to be safe. It's all about being safe.

Fly Safe Everyone (Please !!!)

steve mew

PS Thanks for all the responses and support !



"Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > You did not call them as soon as you were on the ground?
>
> That's an interesting reading of the post. How were you able to reach any
> conclusion as to whether the author did or did not call?
>
>
> > [some snippage]
> > I would have called them upon landing to see what they had to say.
>
> Yeah, when they tell you to call, it's a good idea to call.
>
> He probably did call, and got to talk to the tower supervisor. That
person
> probably can't say at that exact moment whether or not they plan to pursue
> an enforcement action, or whether the FSDO will follow up on it, or
whether
> it would be beneficial to hire a lawyer, or otherwise answer any number of
> questions.
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

steve mew wrote:
>
> .... the biggest mistake a pilot can make.

No, not the biggest. You're still alive. Hell, the plane isn't even damaged.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Maule Driver]

"steve mew" > wrote in message
> It's been a wake up call. I have to say that I am very lucky to be on the
> ground today as there were moments I wasn't sure we were going to make it
> back to BFI.
> I've got a 115 hours, half way through I.R. Part 141 and have become a bit
> over confident and complacent. I have forgotten how really inexperienced
low
> time like this is. I am still learning and when I've got 5000 hrs I will
> still be learning. The best pilots are the old pilots who've made it that
> far. Not because they were Chuck Yeager's but becuse they knew their
limits
> and knew how to be safe. It's all about being safe.
>
I have a theory that says all pilots do something that scares the stuff out
of themselves at least once, but that we gain some humility and head
adjustments that are essential ingredients to a long flying life.

As someone will surely point out, this theory is deeply flawed and such
experiences are completely unnecessary...

Anyway, it doubly bad when you have an audience. Thanks for sharing and my
best wishes for a painless outcome. You already got what you need out of
it.

[BTIZ]

should have called them already... might only have been a polite "arse
chewing".. but if you've delayed this long.. you may be getting a visit from
the local FSDO..

BT

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
t...
> Maybe this isn't the right thing to do but I would call them, listen to
what
> they have to say, then be very apologetic and explain what happened and
that
> you are taking steps to assure that it will not occur again.
>
> If you haven't called them yet, call AOPA and ask advice (I have their
legal
> services plan and that may be required, I don't know).
>
> Peter
>
>
> "steve mew" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Does anyone have any advice on how I should handle an airspace violation
?
> > Whats t he procedure and what are the penalties. It was a first time
> > offense. Here is what I wrote in the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting Form
:
> >
> > A VFR flight was planned in depth with 4 waypoints from KBFI to KPDX.
> There
> > were 3 on board (2 Passengers, and Pilot - who filed this report). The
> > detail of the flight plan included accurate compass vectors, waypoint
> ETA's
> > with VOR radials as backup. 1-800 WX BRIEF was called for a weather
> briefing
> > and a flight plan was filed approx 10 mintes before the flight. The
> Aircraft
> > was equiped for IR flight and had a moving map GPS unit. Takeoff was at
> 0847
> > PST from Runway 13L.
> > Just after take off the pilot opened the flight plan and then
experienced
> > high load conditions due to night lighting and moderate turbulence and
> wind
> > shear. A Class B incursion occured, due to load and fixation from
several
> > distractive factors :
> >
> > 1. Turbulence and Wind Shear : Trying to keep the aircraft straight and
> > level due to turbulent conditions caused loss of awareness of the flight
> > path.
> > 2. A rear seat passenger was distracting the pilot with a headset
> > malfunction.
> > 3. The pilot was inexperienced - 115 Hrs Total Time and limited hours at
> > night although was night current.
> > 4. Deviation from the flight plan. It was intended to originally take
the
> > Vashon Westbound departure but decided on take off to take the
Southbound
> > Departure that was unfamiliar.
> >
> > 2 minutes into the flight the pilot lost spacial awareness and became
> > disoriented. Concerned that the Aircraft was getting close to the SEATAC
> > airspace or Renton Airport airspace the pilot took evaisive action and
> > dumped height to get below 1100 instinctively feeling this was a safe
> level
> > in the area. The intention at this point was to return to a path that
was
> > familiar (The Vashon Departure) It was at this point that the Pilot
> realized
> > that the aircraft infact was much further south that previously thought.
A
> > visual scan externally confirmed this as an aircraft on finals for
SEATAC
> > was off the starboard side at 3 o'clock approximately 1nm. Further
evasive
> > action was taken by steering at high bank northbound to avoid crossing
the
> > SEATAC centerline in order to avoid the ILS cooridoor.
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shortly afterward the pilot changed to a westerly course to attempt to
> > intercept the vashon westbound departure that was familiar to him in an
> > effort to regain spacial awareness. After changing to a westerly path
KBFI
> > tower made contact and requested that in future to notify them of any
> > departure deviation. The aircraft continued over the shoreline into the
> > Puget Sound where the turbulence stopped and smooth flight conditions
> > returned.
> >
> > At this point a decision was made to terminate the flight and return to
> > KBFI. A landing was made on the long runway 13R. After landing the Tower
> > notified the pilot that a telephone call was needed to SEATAC on 206 768
> > 2852.
> >
> > Chain of Events :
> >
> > 1. In planning the flight in the afternoon it was known that the daytime
> > weather was IFR. The forecast for take off was VFR but close to minimums
> and
> > turbulent.
> > 2. A deviation from the intended westbound departure was made.
> > 3. An unfamiliar departure was flown.
> > 4. Distraction from the rear passenger due to their faulty headset.
> > 5. Evasive actions were taken.
> > 6. Recognizing that A) Incursion occured and B) the conditions were
above
> > skill level the pilot elected to abort the flight and return to KBFI.
> >
> > Human Performance Considerations :
> >
> > 1. Although licensed to fly in the weather condtitions the pilot was not
> > experienced to do so effectively.
> > 2. Limited night experience.
> > 3. Bad cockpit management of resources. A GPS unit with moving map
> > displaying the Class B boundaries was available but the zoom function
was
> > set to a scope of limited use. A misinterpretation of the class B
> boundaries
> > was made.
> >
> >
>
>

[sdfsdf]

What kind of GPS were you using ?

Did you have it set to TK up, DTK up, or North up ?

I believe it is easier to bust the Bravo using TK or DTK up as I find that
students then only have an idea of their position in relation to their
track, whereas North up enables them to relate the GPS image to their
sectional chart.

ymmv


>> 3. Bad cockpit management of resources. A GPS unit with moving map
>> displaying the Class B boundaries was available but the zoom function
>> was set to a scope of limited use. A misinterpretation of the class B
>> boundaries was made.
>
>

[BTIZ]

based on all that... you may end up with a "601 ride".. do they still call
it that?.. prepare for it with an instructor.. it could be as little as
duplicating the "planned departure".. to almost a full ride to Private PTS
standards..

filing the NTSB is good..

BT

"steve mew" > wrote in message
...
> I did call and they were very understanding. As soon as I landed last
night
> Twr (118.3) gave me a phone number to call which I did. I 'fessed up and
was
> very appologetic as I was the idiot, no question. They said not to worry
too
> much about it as it does happen with low time pilots all the time.
> Unfortunately due to the traffic load and new rules since 9/11 they have
> filed paperwork but they did say that if the Investigation Board wants to
> pursue it they will tell them that I was very cooperative and that I made
a
> genuine mistake and am very sorry. I did found out from the FAA this
morning
> that I set off TCAS on 2 big jets on finals - Ouch.!!! The Twr supervisor
> has called me a couple of times today and has been really great, very
> understanding and supportive. He is going to call again later to let me
know
> what the radar trace looks like.
>
> Bottom line is I think I may get away with a warning letter and some
> remedial work . However, if they do suspend my license, I will eat it up
and
> ask for an extra slice of humble pie for dessert. I have absolutely no
> excuse, I knew better and I went against my own judgment. I knew it wasn't
a
> good idea to go and I went anyway, the biggest mistake a pilot can make. I
> had a bad feeling on the ground and I chose to ignore it. It was gusting
on
> the field at 18kts for Petes sake !! What was I thinking ??. Winds aloft
> were 33 kts @ 3000
>
> It's been a wake up call. I have to say that I am very lucky to be on the
> ground today as there were moments I wasn't sure we were going to make it
> back to BFI.
> I've got a 115 hours, half way through I.R. Part 141 and have become a bit
> over confident and complacent. I have forgotten how really inexperienced
low
> time like this is. I am still learning and when I've got 5000 hrs I will
> still be learning. The best pilots are the old pilots who've made it that
> far. Not because they were Chuck Yeager's but becuse they knew their
limits
> and knew how to be safe. It's all about being safe.
>
> Fly Safe Everyone (Please !!!)
>
> steve mew
>
> PS Thanks for all the responses and support !
>
>
>
> "Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jeff wrote:
> >
> > > You did not call them as soon as you were on the ground?
> >
> > That's an interesting reading of the post. How were you able to reach
any
> > conclusion as to whether the author did or did not call?
> >
> >
> > > [some snippage]
> > > I would have called them upon landing to see what they had to say.
> >
> > Yeah, when they tell you to call, it's a good idea to call.
> >
> > He probably did call, and got to talk to the tower supervisor. That
> person
> > probably can't say at that exact moment whether or not they plan to
pursue
> > an enforcement action, or whether the FSDO will follow up on it, or
> whether
> > it would be beneficial to hire a lawyer, or otherwise answer any number
of
> > questions.
> >
>
>

[C J Campbell]

People bust into Sea-Tac airspace all the time. I know of another pilot, an
airline captain, who recently busted into the airspace and a United jet on
short final had to take evasive action. This pilot actually flew across
Sea-Tac itself and cut in front of the United jet. However, the airspace
violation was inadvertent and partially due to confusion; he had filed an
IFR flight plan but had not received a clearance yet. Apparently ATC could
not find his flight plan. He was still trying to pick up his clearance in
the air when he flew across the class B. The FAA gave him a warning letter.

You may also receive a warning letter, but that will probably be the end of
it. Just be careful in the future.

If you ever bust airspace again (and the odds are you probably will -- most
pilots have violated one airspace or another but they don't talk about it)
be sure to keep your cool. Don't panic, fly the airplane, talk to the
controlling agency ASAP if you can, and take the shortest way out or follow
ATC directions.

[Peter Duniho]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> I have a theory that says all pilots do something that scares the stuff
out
> of themselves at least once, but that we gain some humility and head
> adjustments that are essential ingredients to a long flying life.
>
> As someone will surely point out, this theory is deeply flawed and such
> experiences are completely unnecessary...

Your theory would only be flawed if it said "all pilots must do
something...". As near as I can tell, it doesn't. And otherwise, it seems
accurate. :)

[steve mew]

Thanks to everyone who replied. You guys have been great !
I will try to answer the questions sent out in the next day or two as more
happens

Thanks again

s



"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> People bust into Sea-Tac airspace all the time. I know of another pilot,
an
> airline captain, who recently busted into the airspace and a United jet on
> short final had to take evasive action. This pilot actually flew across
> Sea-Tac itself and cut in front of the United jet. However, the airspace
> violation was inadvertent and partially due to confusion; he had filed an
> IFR flight plan but had not received a clearance yet. Apparently ATC
could
> not find his flight plan. He was still trying to pick up his clearance in
> the air when he flew across the class B. The FAA gave him a warning
letter.
>
> You may also receive a warning letter, but that will probably be the end
of
> it. Just be careful in the future.
>
> If you ever bust airspace again (and the odds are you probably will --
most
> pilots have violated one airspace or another but they don't talk about it)
> be sure to keep your cool. Don't panic, fly the airplane, talk to the
> controlling agency ASAP if you can, and take the shortest way out or
follow
> ATC directions.
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Steve,

I really like your attitude after the event. Live and learn!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Todd Pattist]

sdfsdf > wrote:


>I believe it is easier to bust the Bravo using TK or DTK up as I find that
>students then only have an idea of their position in relation to their
>track, whereas North up enables them to relate the GPS image to their
>sectional chart.


TK up is better when you know where you are. North up is
probably better if you don't and are trying to compare GPS
to the sectional.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

[Todd Pattist]

"steve mew" > wrote:

>I am very lucky to be on the
>ground today as there were moments I wasn't sure we were going to make it
>back to BFI.

Full bag of luck and empty bag of experience when you start.
Looks like you just moved some stuff over to the experience
bag. Try not to empty the bag of luck before the bag of
experience has enough in it to get you through. :-)
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> ..... most
> pilots have violated one airspace or another but they don't talk about it

Is there a statute of limitations on such violations?

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Maule Driver]

Thanks for noticing the careful wording.

It goes without saying I have a few stories....that I don't want to share.
Anybody else want to share?

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> m...
> > I have a theory that says all pilots do something that scares the stuff
> out
> > of themselves at least once, but that we gain some humility and head
> > adjustments that are essential ingredients to a long flying life.
> >
> > As someone will surely point out, this theory is deeply flawed and such
> > experiences are completely unnecessary...
>
> Your theory would only be flawed if it said "all pilots must do
> something...". As near as I can tell, it doesn't. And otherwise, it
seems
> accurate. :)
>
>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-10-24 07:27:54 -0700, (null) said:

> > ..... most
> > pilots have violated one airspace or another but they don't talk about it
>
> Is there a statute of limitations on such violations?

The number that comes to mind is 180 days. If any action is to be taken, the ball must start rolling before 180 days have passed.

[Dan Luke]

"Maule Driver" wrote:
> It goes without saying I have a few stories....that I don't want to
> share. Anybody else want to share?

No way! Too embarrassing!
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Kobra]

Hello everyone, my name is Kobra and I am an Airspace Violator.

[Group] "Hello Kobra!"

It has now been two months since my last violation. Let me share my one and
hopefully only story:

Here is my NASA report: (you may notice that the one thing in common with
Steve's report is that we both read our moving map GPS incorrectly. I too
was zoomed in too tightly and miss read the screen. Take note that when
using a GPS for this purpose, for God's Sake, zoom the damn thing ALL the
way out to see the WHOLE class B.)

I departed Linden Airport (LDJ) VFR enroute to KGFL with one passenger on
August 23rd, 2003 at approximately 11:00 AM. I climbed to 1000' to fly the
Hudson Corridor northbound and did not contact ATC as I figured I would do
so after I was clear of the class B airspace. I was using GPS for my
primary navigation and my passenger (non-pilot) was reading the NY Terminal
Area Chart as a cross-reference. The flight conditions were clear, but very
turbulent at that altitude. My passenger became nauseous while we were
approximately at the North Hudson Park. Shortly I saw her throw the Map in
the back of the plane and become sick. I then became distracted in helping
her find a relief bag. I looked down at my GPS and saw what I thought was
our position entering the outer most ring of the NY class bravo. I saw that
I could climb to 3000' and proceeded to do so. Unfortunately I did not
realize I was not entering the outer most ring, I was entering the
second-to-last ring which only entitled me to climb to 1500'. As I was
approaching 3000' I looked at the GPS again and saw what I thought was us
leaving the class B airspace and proceeded to climb to our cruise altitude
of 5500'. During that climb I contacted approach control to receive flight
advisories. After about a minute or so the approach controller informed me
of my transgression into NY's class B airspace and gave me a phone number to
call to speak with them. Shortly after I landed I phoned the number I was
given and gave ATC my tail number. She explained the problem, listened to
my situation and then gave me several frequencies to use if I ever am in
that situation again. [report end]

Kobra

[wtfcfi]

TK up is for mouth breathing invertebrates who never really learned to
formulate a map in their head which they compare to the sectional and
any other nav instruments they may be using.

I see people like this all the time, they have to rotate their sectional
chart whenever they change heading or they will get confused. These are
the same people that get lost when flying south because now left on the
map does not mean left in the world.

I have found that pilots navigating with GPS most often loose
situational awareness when using TK up than using North up. The folks
using TK up know only that they are heading toward whatever they punched
in for "Direct To". These are the people that cannot adequately tell
ATC their location in reference to a nearby town or airport because they
can't relate their left and right to north and south.

As you mentioned in the first sentence of your post, "TK up is better
when you know where you are." You folks flying around with TK up
because it appears to be easier, you are just asking for a navigation
related airspace bust.

Most pilots using GPS as their primary means of navigation don't know
exactly where they are, so by your statement they should probably be
using North Up. If they knew where they were they wouldn't be using the
GPS.



Todd Pattist > wrote in
:

> sdfsdf > wrote:

>
> TK up is better when you know where you are. North up is
> probably better if you don't and are trying to compare GPS
> to the sectional.
> Todd Pattist
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
> ___
> Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
> Share what you learn.
>

[Peter Duniho]

"wtfcfi" > wrote in message
news:nWimb.20178$e01.38578@attbi_s02...
>
> TK up is for mouth breathing invertebrates who never really learned to
> formulate a map in their head which they compare to the sectional and
> any other nav instruments they may be using. [remainder of drivel
snipped]

lol...

This being the Usenet, you haven't come close to posting the most idiotic
message of the year. But that doesn't mean it approached being sensible.

Different people navigate different ways. Your claims regarding someone
"just asking for a navigation related airspace bust" is completely
unfounded, and I guarantee you have no data to support it. Beyond that,
your willingness to dimiss someone as incompetent just because they use a
technique to navigate that you don't like or appreciate is the mark of a
fool.

Pete

[karl gruber]

"wtfcfi" > wrote in message
news:nWimb.20178$e01.38578@attbi_s02...
>
> TK up is for mouth breathing invertebrates who never really learned to
> formulate a map in their head which they compare to the sectional and
> any other nav instruments they may be using.
>
> I see people like this all the time, they have to rotate their sectional
> chart whenever they change heading or they will get confused. These are
> the same people that get lost when flying south because now left on the
> map does not mean left in the world.
>
> I have found that pilots navigating with GPS most often loose
> situational awareness when using TK up than using North up.

Bla, Bla, Bla,_________________________


Halleluiah!!!

You need to get to FlightSafety immediately and notify them of this!!!

My training with them every 6 months for the past 24 years in various
aircraft, Falcon, Lear, Beech stress TRACK up on the main MFD. No wonder us
corporate pilots are always lost*************

They need your help!!


Karl

[Jeff]

Did you see the question mark after my comment, Its interesting how you could
come to the conclusion that I made a conclusion.
Real simple, I asked if he called or not.

Craig Prouse wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
>
> > You did not call them as soon as you were on the ground?
>
> That's an interesting reading of the post. How were you able to reach any
> conclusion as to whether the author did or did not call?
>
> > [some snippage]
> > I would have called them upon landing to see what they had to say.
>
> Yeah, when they tell you to call, it's a good idea to call.
>
> He probably did call, and got to talk to the tower supervisor. That person
> probably can't say at that exact moment whether or not they plan to pursue
> an enforcement action, or whether the FSDO will follow up on it, or whether
> it would be beneficial to hire a lawyer, or otherwise answer any number of
> questions.

[Jeff]

Hey when you know the outcome of this, can you post it and let us know. I am
kinda interested to see how they handle things like this there.

steve mew wrote:

> I did call and they were very understanding. As soon as I landed last night
> Twr (118.3) gave me a phone number to call which I did. I 'fessed up and was
> very appologetic as I was the idiot, no question. They said not to worry too
> much about it as it does happen with low time pilots all the time.
> Unfortunately due to the traffic load and new rules since 9/11 they have
> filed paperwork but they did say that if the Investigation Board wants to
> pursue it they will tell them that I was very cooperative and that I made a
> genuine mistake and am very sorry. I did found out from the FAA this morning
> that I set off TCAS on 2 big jets on finals - Ouch.!!! The Twr supervisor
> has called me a couple of times today and has been really great, very
> understanding and supportive. He is going to call again later to let me know
> what the radar trace looks like.
>
> Bottom line is I think I may get away with a warning letter and some
> remedial work . However, if they do suspend my license, I will eat it up and
> ask for an extra slice of humble pie for dessert. I have absolutely no
> excuse, I knew better and I went against my own judgment. I knew it wasn't a
> good idea to go and I went anyway, the biggest mistake a pilot can make. I
> had a bad feeling on the ground and I chose to ignore it. It was gusting on
> the field at 18kts for Petes sake !! What was I thinking ??. Winds aloft
> were 33 kts @ 3000
>
> It's been a wake up call. I have to say that I am very lucky to be on the
> ground today as there were moments I wasn't sure we were going to make it
> back to BFI.
> I've got a 115 hours, half way through I.R. Part 141 and have become a bit
> over confident and complacent. I have forgotten how really inexperienced low
> time like this is. I am still learning and when I've got 5000 hrs I will
> still be learning. The best pilots are the old pilots who've made it that
> far. Not because they were Chuck Yeager's but becuse they knew their limits
> and knew how to be safe. It's all about being safe.
>
> Fly Safe Everyone (Please !!!)
>
> steve mew
>
> PS Thanks for all the responses and support !
>
> "Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jeff wrote:
> >
> > > You did not call them as soon as you were on the ground?
> >
> > That's an interesting reading of the post. How were you able to reach any
> > conclusion as to whether the author did or did not call?
> >
> >
> > > [some snippage]
> > > I would have called them upon landing to see what they had to say.
> >
> > Yeah, when they tell you to call, it's a good idea to call.
> >
> > He probably did call, and got to talk to the tower supervisor. That
> person
> > probably can't say at that exact moment whether or not they plan to pursue
> > an enforcement action, or whether the FSDO will follow up on it, or
> whether
> > it would be beneficial to hire a lawyer, or otherwise answer any number of
> > questions.
> >

[Jeff]

Do you really mean that :)


karl gruber wrote:
No wonder us

> corporate pilots are always lost*************
>
> They need your help!!
>
> Karl

[Kobra]

> your willingness to dimiss someone as incompetent just because they use a
> technique to navigate that you don't like or appreciate is the mark of a
> fool.

Well said! But, you forgot, "or can afford".

[C J Campbell]

"wtfcfi" > wrote in message
news:nWimb.20178$e01.38578@attbi_s02...
|
| TK up is for mouth breathing invertebrates who never really learned to
| formulate a map in their head which they compare to the sectional and
| any other nav instruments they may be using.
|
|
| I have found that pilots navigating with GPS most often loose
| situational awareness when using TK up than using North up.

This, from a guy who does not know the difference between 'loose' and
'lose.'

Loser.

[Montblack]

("Kobra" wrote)
> Hello everyone, my name is Kobra and I am an Airspace Violator.
>
> [Group] "Hello Kobra!"
>
> It has now been two months since my last violation. Let me share my one
and hopefully only story: <snip>


"Vito, you're blocking."

You see, you don't need to violate Class B to enjoy your flight.

Now ...it's orange peel (mime) time for you. :-o

--
Montblack
"I like to watch"

[Cub Driver]

A friend of mine received a notice of violation from the FCC when he
was caught making a call from his boat, putting the boat name first or
maybe second; in any event, in the wrong order.

He kept trying to explain that this was no big deal, but the notices
kept coming. Finally he wrote a formal letter, with numbered
paragraphs etc., to the effect that the master of subject vessel has
caused a placard to be placed over the communicatins equipment etc, in
addition to which the crew has been instructed in proper
communications procedure etc. After that, he never heard from the FCC
again.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Mxsmanic]

wtfcfi writes:

> Most pilots using GPS as their primary means of navigation don't know
> exactly where they are ...

That's true for anyone using navigation. You don't need navigation if
you know where you are.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

[Peter Gottlieb]

Really? I find it makes little difference what mode I use, I do fine either
way. Why should it matter? You either have a mental picture or you don't.


"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
>
> "wtfcfi" > wrote in message
> news:nWimb.20178$e01.38578@attbi_s02...
> >
> > TK up is for mouth breathing invertebrates who never really learned to
> > formulate a map in their head which they compare to the sectional and
> > any other nav instruments they may be using.
> >
> > I see people like this all the time, they have to rotate their sectional
> > chart whenever they change heading or they will get confused. These are
> > the same people that get lost when flying south because now left on the
> > map does not mean left in the world.
> >
> > I have found that pilots navigating with GPS most often loose
> > situational awareness when using TK up than using North up.
>
> Bla, Bla, Bla,_________________________
>
>
> Halleluiah!!!
>
> You need to get to FlightSafety immediately and notify them of this!!!
>
> My training with them every 6 months for the past 24 years in various
> aircraft, Falcon, Lear, Beech stress TRACK up on the main MFD. No wonder
us
> corporate pilots are always lost*************
>
> They need your help!!
>
>
> Karl
>
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
. net...
> Really? I find it makes little difference what mode I use, I do fine
either
> way. Why should it matter? You either have a mental picture or you
don't.

My impression was that Karl's post was sarcastic. The "Bla, Bla, Bla" at
the beginning was the big clue. :)

[Peter Gottlieb]

Oh. Well then I missed it. I'm not a morning person and I had to get up at
5 am today, so anything's possible..


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > Really? I find it makes little difference what mode I use, I do fine
> either
> > way. Why should it matter? You either have a mental picture or you
> don't.
>
> My impression was that Karl's post was sarcastic. The "Bla, Bla, Bla" at
> the beginning was the big clue. :)
>
>

[Gary L. Drescher]

"steve mew" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone have any advice on how I should handle an airspace violation ?
> Whats t he procedure and what are the penalties. It was a first time
> offense. Here is what I wrote in the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting Form :

It sounds like you took the proper steps afterward. According to the ASRS
immunity policy, you are protected from any FAA penalty (assuming that you
have not been found to commit any other violation within the past five
years, and that you mailed in your ASRS report within ten days of the
event). http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm

--Gary

[Peter R.]

wtfcfi ) wrote:

> TK up is for mouth breathing invertebrates who never really learned to
> formulate a map in their head which they compare to the sectional and
> any other nav instruments they may be using.

Interesting that you felt compelled to use a throw-away Usenet alias under
which to post your drivel.

Not man enough to stand behind your comments, eh?

Troll, plain and simple.

--
Peter












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