Stupid PowerFLARM Question

[Peter von Tresckow]

I was going to meet up with a soaring buddy who has a Power Flarm, and take
it flying in my flying club's DA40 to see what traffic it will display. Our
DA40 has a G1000 with the old mode S traffic display, so we can compare the
results.

My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power flarm
are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped planes, or
does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?

Thanks

Peter

[Paul Remde]

"Peter von Tresckow" > wrote in message
...
I was going to meet up with a soaring buddy who has a Power Flarm, and take
it flying in my flying club's DA40 to see what traffic it will display. Our
DA40 has a G1000 with the old mode S traffic display, so we can compare the
results.

My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power flarm
are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped planes, or
does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?

Thanks

Peter



Hi Peter,

Do you mean 1090ES? I believe that the PowerFLARM receives 1090ES ADS-B
signals from aircraft. But I am not 100% certain.

I have seen ADS-B traffic on my PowerFLARM display with it sitting here on
my desk at home.

Paul Remde

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:56:27 AM UTC-5, vontresc wrote:
> My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power flarm
> are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped planes, or
> does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?

This is explained here:
http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM-About-Transponders-And-ADSB

[Darryl Ramm]

On 2/29/12 8:56 AM, Peter von Tresckow wrote:
> I was going to meet up with a soaring buddy who has a Power Flarm, and take
> it flying in my flying club's DA40 to see what traffic it will display. Our
> DA40 has a G1000 with the old mode S traffic display, so we can compare the
> results.
>
> My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power flarm
> are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped planes, or
> does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter

Actually it's a good question...and a very good thing to want to do some
tests/experiment with. Its the type of question that I hope any ADS-B
data-in/receiver early adopter would ask. I'll try to give you a
detailed enough answer to be useful, but let me know if this is not
clear or needs more explanation. This is very USA specific. Things are
simpler, at least in concept, in Europe and other locations that only
support ADS-B over 1090ES and don't use the USA approach with both
1090ES and UAT link layers. European ATC organizations also do not
provide TIS-B like services over 1090ES.

In the USA ground based ADS-B traffic services are ADS-R and TIS-B.
ADS-R is the relay of traffic broadcasts between UAT and 1090ES link
layers and vice versa. TIS-B is the transmission of SSR radar derived
traffic information over ADS-B and is analogous to the Mode S TIS
service the DA40's G1000's GTX-33 transponder will receive today (but
TIS-B is completely separate to/different in implementation to Mode-S TIS).

The ground based ADS-B ADS-R and TIS-B services are only broadcast to
your if your aircraft is equipped with ADS-B data-out, and that data-out
equipment needs to be properly configured to describe to that ground
infrastructure in this case that you aircraft had a 1090 ES receiver.
The ground based system then transmits ADS-R and TIS-B traffic data for
aircraft withing for a cylinder shaped volume surrounding your aircraft.
Since it is unlikely your DA-40 has 1090ES (or UAT) data-out the ground
based infrastructure simply won't transit those services for you. To
receive these services you also need to be within range of an ADS-B
ground station (aka Ground Based Transceiver -- GBT) and those ADS-R and
TIS-B services need to be deployed for the area you are flying in.
(TIS-B especially requires complex integration with SSR radar
systems--and you need to be clear if that TIS-B integration is for
approach and/or area/enroute radar coverage). In general good luck
trying to find out what exactly is deployed where and when and what the
actual low-altitude coverage you should expect where you fly -- but the
receiver should announce if you have or are leaving service coverage
(again only if you have a properly configured ADS-B data-out equipment).
There are some popular gliding areas like around the great
Basin/Parowan/Inyokern Valley where at least past FAA predictions of
ADS-B ground station coverage were pretty horrible, in other areas it
can be as good as down to hundreds of feet AGL or lower.

Be careful doing quick tests and convincing yourself that any ADS-B
system is receiving ADS-R or TIS-B data. Your receiver may be seeing
broadcasts from the ground infrastructure for other aircraft (that are
equipped with ADS-B data-out and data-in capabilities). You really care
about traffic conflicts/threats to your aircraft, not threats to some
random third party aircraft, -- and that TIS-B and ADS-R traffic data
being broadcast for other aircraft may disappear off your traffic
display as that traffic flies away from that other aircraft...

The usefulness of the 1090ES ADS-B receiver in the PowerFLARM will be
receiving 1090ES ADS-B direct signals from other aircraft as they equip.
with 1090ES data-out. High performance aircraft , especially airliners,
(because of 1990ES requirements for flight in Class A airspace and
European airspace flights) and many GA aircraft (because of the ease of
piggybacking the 1090ES electronics, certification and
sales/marketing/distribution costs onto existing popular GA transponder
products e.g, the Garmin GTX-330 ES/GTX-33 ES) and gliders (because of
the popularity of the 1090ES data-out capable Trig TT21/22
transponders). Currently the FAA is requiring STC approvals for ADS-B
data-out installs in all certified aircraft. That appears to have
effectively stalled ADS-B data-out adoption in GA aircraft in the USA,
although avionics vendors and their partners are working on STCs for
some popular aircraft types (no don't hold your breath for any glider
STCs).

But it gets worse,... even assuming your DA-40 is eventfully upgraded to
ADS-B data-out with a GTX-33ES transponder (with the ADS-B data-out GPS
data typically provided by the GIA-63W already in the G1000 panel). Now
that aircraft has ADS-B data-out but no data-in (unless you also add a
Garmin 800 series traffic system). So the GTX33ES will not be configured
to transmit the capability code bits that tell the ground infrastructure
the aircraft has a 1090ES (or UAT) data-in capability. So you as a pilot
or owner/pilot approaches the aircraft with a PowerFLARM or any other
portable ADS-B receiver in you hand, what do you do? Can you practically
and legally change the ADS-B data-out capability code setup of the
GTX-33ES transponder? Do the transponder configuration menus even let
you do this? BTW when many avionics vendors (including Garmin) are asked
this question they get very shy...

Again the use of PowerFLARM totady is for glider-glider or
glider-towplane use where with both aircraft having a PowerFLARM it all
"just works". The practical use of the 1090ES data-in capability of
PowerFLARM today is directly receiving 1090ES transmissions from those
aircraft equipped with 1090ES data-out. That's potentially interesting
today where we have say 1090ES equipped airliners flying near GA or
glider traffic. And for glider pilots who do own a PowerFLARM and have
buddies with experimental gliders (and therefore immune to ADS-B
data-out STC requirements) and Trig TT21/22 transponders--it is
potentially interesting to encourge those owners to enable ADS-B
data-out on their Trig transponders so you can potentially "see" them at
much longer distances than possible using PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM. It also
may be interesting to track those 1090ES equipped gliders from a 1090ES
ground station. (yes APRS folks, I know amateur radio based APRS
tracking is already well proven in practical use doing that today).

There are web sites that use volunteer ground station receivers that
track ADS-B equipped flights (in practice they those systems are all
1090ES based) traffic -- e.g. see http://www.radarvirtuel.com If you
happen to live in an area that has ground receiver coverage from one of
these services it might give you an idea of the 1090ES data-out equipped
traffic near where you fly (its not much today... that current STC
requirement is a likely factor here, that adoption should change
significantly as we get closer to year 2020 mandatory ADS-B data out
carriage requirements for power aircraft, similar to transponder
requirements today). And I simply expect many of the more modern
transponder equipped GA aircraft to upgrade their transponders to add
1090ES data out capability.

Note I have not addressed whether the PowerFLARM will actually
receive/display ADS-R or TIS-B messages even if your aircraft is
properly set up with ADS-B data-out. I just don't know for sure if ADS-R
or TIS-B capability is supported today in the PowerFLARM--and for the
reasons described above its likely not even important to know. And you
likely want to display TIS-B traffic using different symbols and
implying the position is much less accurately known than ADS-B direct or
Flarm traffic. Attempting to Deduplicate TIS-B and Mode-C PCAS threats
is also a challenging area for PoweFLARM to implement well (but
relatively easy with Mode-S threats since both signals include a unique
ICAO ID). But overall given how messy ADS-B TIS-B is I am really happy
that the Flarm guys decided to implement Mode C and S PCAS in PoweFLARM
(an obvious choice in many ways since here is no TIS-B in Europe).


Darryl

[vontresc]

Thanks Darryl, That's probably the best explanation of TIS-B i've
seen. I've been looking for some documentation beyond the "TIS-B will
provide you with traffic info" you see everywhere. So If I understand
this correctly the TIS-B rebroadcast will not send any traffic info
unless the system sees you (ADS-B out) and deems it a threat. Do I
have that right?

Peter

[Darryl Ramm]

On 2/29/12 6:51 PM, vontresc wrote:
> Thanks Darryl, That's probably the best explanation of TIS-B i've
> seen. I've been looking for some documentation beyond the "TIS-B will
> provide you with traffic info" you see everywhere. So If I understand
> this correctly the TIS-B rebroadcast will not send any traffic info
> unless the system sees you (ADS-B out) and deems it a threat. Do I
> have that right?
>
> Peter


"deems it a threat" is a bit too strong. ADS-B ground processing does
not evaluate collision threats. It broadcasts traffic data (not just to
you but to anybody with an ADS-B receiver) for the service
volume/cylinder that surrounds each ADS-B data-out equipped 'client'
aircraft that ADS-B ground infrastructure is providing traffic services
for. It is a pretty big cylinder (IIRC 30nm diameter and +/- 3,500') it
is not computing collisions threats to your aircraft, just traffic in
this cylinder. These flat cylinders are also called "hockey pucks" by
some folks. The only system out there (besides Flarm) that really works
by computing collision risks/threats is TCAS.

BTW the ground infrastructure behind Mode-S TIS also computes traffic
for a cylinder around each TIS 'client' aircraft. Its a smaller cylinder
(7 n.m. radius) and Mode-S TIS uses (very crude) predictions for when
traffic will be in that cylinder and will advise of traffic likely to be
in that cylinder ahead of time---but even that is not really calculating
a collision threat in the strict sense. TIS then uses the native
data-uplink layer on Mode-S transponders directed to each specific
transponder and encodes the relative position of those nearby aircraft.
TIS is USA only technology, works very well for what it does. Its a pity
the FAA messed with TIS service availability a few year ago as they
upgraded the technology used in some of their approach/terminal radar
sites and decided to remove existing TIS capability to save upgrade
costs. Otherwise encouraging Mode-S TIS adoption and rewarding owners
willing to equip their aircraft with traffic systems would have helped
ease/reassure people about the transition to ADS-B traffic technology.
Part of the reason I expect the FAA mishandled this was a belief that
"ADS-B will do everything for everybody and will be here any day soon".
Pity about that...

Regards


Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On 2/29/12 8:13 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On 2/29/12 6:51 PM, vontresc wrote:
>> Thanks Darryl, That's probably the best explanation of TIS-B i've
>> seen. I've been looking for some documentation beyond the "TIS-B will
>> provide you with traffic info" you see everywhere. So If I understand
>> this correctly the TIS-B rebroadcast will not send any traffic info
>> unless the system sees you (ADS-B out) and deems it a threat. Do I
>> have that right?
>>
>> Peter

And the other thing I want to re-emphasise is not only does the aircraft
have to be ADS-B data-out equipped but the "capability code" setting in
that ADS-B dataout transmissions must be set correctly - those code bits
tell the ground infrastructure that your aircraft has ADS-B data-in
capability and therefore a client it should be servicing (and implicit
here is the aircraft also has traffic display capabilities).

Also note that although its been possible in principle to transmit ADS-B
position data on one link layer and receive ADS-R and TIS-B traffic data
on the other link layer the FAA has stated to specifically
dissuade/discourage "split" installations like that - and something I
expect would not be allowed in currently required data-out STC approvals
if they also covered a data-in installation. So big bother/FAA is
unlikely to like ideas of say doing UAT transmitter/data-out with
PowerFLARM 1090ES data-in. Now that you are guaranteed to have the
data-in on the same link layer as your data-out and that data-out signal
need to have some magic capability code bits configured properly for all
this to work you would think receiver manufacturers are checking if the
bits being sent by the local transmitter are configured correctly or
not.... Ah that would be too easy/obvious. Again questions like this
invite silence from most avionics vendors....

A solution to some of this dual-link layer mess (at least avoiding
needing to have ADS-B data-out to receive ADS-R ground based services)
is I expect to see USA GA oriented ADS-B receivers support receiving
data-in on both UAT and 1090ES link layers. This won't help address
TIS-B issues and needing ADS-B data-out properly configured to receive
TIS-B services.

Darryl

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Feb 29, 5:02*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On 2/29/12 8:56 AM, Peter von Tresckow wrote:
>
> > I was going to meet up with a soaring buddy who has a Power Flarm, and take
> > it flying in my flying club's DA40 to see what traffic it will display. Our
> > DA40 has a G1000 with the old mode S traffic display, so we can compare the
> > results.
>
> > My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power flarm
> > are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped planes, or
> > does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?
>
> > Thanks
>
> > Peter
>
> Actually it's a good question...and a very good thing to want to do some
> tests/experiment with. Its the type of question that I hope any ADS-B
> data-in/receiver early adopter would ask. I'll try to give you a
> detailed enough answer to be useful, but let me know if this is not
> clear or needs more explanation. This is very USA specific. Things are
> simpler, at least in concept, in Europe and other locations that only
> support ADS-B over 1090ES and don't use the USA approach with both
> 1090ES and UAT link layers. European ATC organizations also do not
> provide TIS-B like services over 1090ES.
>
> In the USA ground based ADS-B traffic services are ADS-R and TIS-B.
> ADS-R is the relay of traffic broadcasts between UAT and 1090ES link
> layers and vice versa. TIS-B is the transmission of SSR radar derived
> traffic information over ADS-B and is analogous to the Mode S TIS
> service the DA40's G1000's GTX-33 transponder will receive today (but
> TIS-B is completely separate to/different in implementation to Mode-S TIS).
>
> The ground based ADS-B ADS-R and TIS-B services are only broadcast to
> your if your aircraft is equipped with ADS-B data-out, and that data-out
> equipment needs to be properly configured to describe to that ground
> infrastructure in this case that you aircraft had a 1090 ES receiver.
> The ground based system then transmits ADS-R and TIS-B traffic data for
> aircraft withing for a cylinder shaped volume surrounding your aircraft.
> Since it is unlikely your DA-40 has 1090ES (or UAT) data-out the ground
> based infrastructure simply won't transit those services for you. To
> receive these services you also need to be within range of an ADS-B
> ground station (aka Ground Based Transceiver -- GBT) and those ADS-R and
> TIS-B services need to be deployed for the area you are flying in.
> (TIS-B especially requires complex integration with SSR radar
> systems--and you need to be clear if that TIS-B integration is for
> approach and/or area/enroute radar coverage). In general good luck
> trying to find out what exactly is deployed where and when and what the
> actual low-altitude coverage you should expect where you fly -- but the
> receiver should announce if you have or are leaving service coverage
> (again only if you have a properly configured ADS-B data-out equipment).
> There are some popular gliding areas like around the great
> Basin/Parowan/Inyokern Valley where at least past FAA predictions of
> ADS-B ground station coverage were pretty horrible, in other areas it
> can be as good as down to hundreds of feet AGL or lower.
>
> Be careful doing quick tests and convincing yourself that any ADS-B
> system is receiving ADS-R or TIS-B data. Your receiver may be seeing
> broadcasts from the ground infrastructure for other aircraft (that are
> equipped with ADS-B data-out and data-in capabilities). You really care
> about traffic conflicts/threats to your aircraft, not threats to some
> random third party aircraft, -- and that *TIS-B and ADS-R traffic data
> being broadcast for other aircraft may disappear off your traffic
> display as that traffic flies away from that other aircraft...
>
> The usefulness of the 1090ES ADS-B receiver in the PowerFLARM will be
> receiving 1090ES ADS-B direct signals from other aircraft as they equip.
> with 1090ES data-out. High performance aircraft , especially airliners,
> (because of 1990ES requirements for flight in Class A airspace and
> European airspace flights) and many GA aircraft *(because of the ease of
> piggybacking the 1090ES electronics, certification and
> sales/marketing/distribution costs onto existing popular GA transponder
> products e.g, the Garmin GTX-330 ES/GTX-33 ES) and gliders (because of
> the popularity of the 1090ES data-out capable Trig TT21/22
> transponders). Currently the FAA is requiring STC approvals for ADS-B
> data-out installs in all certified aircraft. That appears to have
> effectively stalled ADS-B data-out adoption in GA aircraft in the USA,
> although avionics vendors and their partners are working on STCs for
> some popular aircraft types (no don't hold your breath for any glider
> STCs).
>
> But it gets worse,... even assuming your DA-40 is eventfully upgraded to
> ADS-B data-out with a GTX-33ES transponder (with the ADS-B data-out GPS
> data typically provided by the GIA-63W already in the G1000 panel). Now
> that aircraft has ADS-B data-out but no data-in (unless you also add a
> Garmin 800 series traffic system). So the GTX33ES will not be configured
> to transmit the capability code bits that tell the ground infrastructure
> the aircraft has a 1090ES (or UAT) data-in capability. So you as a pilot
> or owner/pilot approaches the aircraft with a PowerFLARM or any other
> portable ADS-B receiver in you hand, what do you do? Can you practically
> and legally change the ADS-B data-out capability code setup of the
> GTX-33ES transponder? Do the transponder configuration menus even let
> you do this? BTW when many avionics vendors (including Garmin) are asked
> this question they get very shy...
>
> Again the use of PowerFLARM totady is for glider-glider or
> glider-towplane use where with both aircraft having a PowerFLARM it all
> "just works". The practical use of the 1090ES data-in capability of
> PowerFLARM today is directly receiving 1090ES transmissions from those
> aircraft equipped with 1090ES data-out. That's potentially interesting
> today where we have say 1090ES equipped airliners flying near GA or
> glider traffic. And for *glider pilots who do own a PowerFLARM and have
> buddies with experimental gliders (and therefore immune to ADS-B
> data-out STC requirements) and Trig TT21/22 transponders--it is
> potentially interesting to encourge those owners to enable ADS-B
> data-out on their Trig transponders so you can potentially "see" them at
> much longer distances than possible using PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM. It also
> may be interesting to track those 1090ES equipped gliders from a 1090ES
> ground station. (yes APRS folks, I know amateur radio based APRS
> tracking is already well proven in practical use doing that today).
>
> There are web sites that use volunteer ground station receivers that
> track ADS-B equipped flights (in practice they those systems are all
> 1090ES based) traffic -- e.g. seehttp://www.radarvirtuel.comIf you
> happen to live in an area that has ground receiver coverage from one of
> these services it might give you an idea of the 1090ES data-out equipped
> traffic near where you fly (its not much today... that current STC
> requirement is a likely factor here, that adoption should change
> significantly as we get closer to year 2020 mandatory ADS-B data out
> carriage requirements for power aircraft, similar to transponder
> requirements today). And I simply expect many of the more modern
> transponder equipped GA aircraft to upgrade their transponders to add
> 1090ES data out capability.
>
> Note I have not addressed whether the PowerFLARM will actually
> receive/display ADS-R or TIS-B messages even if your aircraft is
> properly set up with ADS-B data-out. I just don't know for sure if ADS-R
> or TIS-B capability is supported today in the PowerFLARM--and for the
> reasons described above its likely not even important to know. And you
> likely want to display TIS-B traffic using different symbols and
> implying the position is much less accurately known than ADS-B direct or
> Flarm traffic. Attempting to Deduplicate TIS-B and Mode-C PCAS threats
> is also a challenging area for PoweFLARM to implement well (but
> relatively easy with Mode-S threats since both signals include a unique
> ICAO ID). But overall given how messy ADS-B TIS-B is I am really happy
> that the Flarm guys decided to implement Mode C and S PCAS in PoweFLARM
> (an obvious choice in many ways since here is no TIS-B in Europe).
>
> Darryl

How about someone from the FLARM team answering the simple question:
Does PowerFlarm display TIS-B traffic received from a ADS-B ground
station, assuming that the aircraft is properly transmitting a
properly configured ADS-B out signal. The second logical question is
whether PowerFlarm can function as a GPS source for the Trig 21/22
transponder so that ADS-B out can be configured in those gliders that
have both pieces of equipment.

Mike Schumann

[Darryl Ramm]

On 2/29/12 9:41 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Feb 29, 5:02 pm, Darryl > wrote:
>> On 2/29/12 8:56 AM, Peter von Tresckow wrote:
>>
>>> I was going to meet up with a soaring buddy who has a Power Flarm, and take
>>> it flying in my flying club's DA40 to see what traffic it will display. Our
>>> DA40 has a G1000 with the old mode S traffic display, so we can compare the
>>> results.
>>
>>> My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power flarm
>>> are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped planes, or
>>> does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?
>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> Actually it's a good question...and a very good thing to want to do some
>> tests/experiment with. Its the type of question that I hope any ADS-B
>> data-in/receiver early adopter would ask. I'll try to give you a
>> detailed enough answer to be useful, but let me know if this is not
>> clear or needs more explanation. This is very USA specific. Things are
>> simpler, at least in concept, in Europe and other locations that only
>> support ADS-B over 1090ES and don't use the USA approach with both
>> 1090ES and UAT link layers. European ATC organizations also do not
>> provide TIS-B like services over 1090ES.
>>
>> In the USA ground based ADS-B traffic services are ADS-R and TIS-B.
>> ADS-R is the relay of traffic broadcasts between UAT and 1090ES link
>> layers and vice versa. TIS-B is the transmission of SSR radar derived
>> traffic information over ADS-B and is analogous to the Mode S TIS
>> service the DA40's G1000's GTX-33 transponder will receive today (but
>> TIS-B is completely separate to/different in implementation to Mode-S TIS).
>>
>> The ground based ADS-B ADS-R and TIS-B services are only broadcast to
>> your if your aircraft is equipped with ADS-B data-out, and that data-out
>> equipment needs to be properly configured to describe to that ground
>> infrastructure in this case that you aircraft had a 1090 ES receiver.
>> The ground based system then transmits ADS-R and TIS-B traffic data for
>> aircraft withing for a cylinder shaped volume surrounding your aircraft.
>> Since it is unlikely your DA-40 has 1090ES (or UAT) data-out the ground
>> based infrastructure simply won't transit those services for you. To
>> receive these services you also need to be within range of an ADS-B
>> ground station (aka Ground Based Transceiver -- GBT) and those ADS-R and
>> TIS-B services need to be deployed for the area you are flying in.
>> (TIS-B especially requires complex integration with SSR radar
>> systems--and you need to be clear if that TIS-B integration is for
>> approach and/or area/enroute radar coverage). In general good luck
>> trying to find out what exactly is deployed where and when and what the
>> actual low-altitude coverage you should expect where you fly -- but the
>> receiver should announce if you have or are leaving service coverage
>> (again only if you have a properly configured ADS-B data-out equipment).
>> There are some popular gliding areas like around the great
>> Basin/Parowan/Inyokern Valley where at least past FAA predictions of
>> ADS-B ground station coverage were pretty horrible, in other areas it
>> can be as good as down to hundreds of feet AGL or lower.
>>
>> Be careful doing quick tests and convincing yourself that any ADS-B
>> system is receiving ADS-R or TIS-B data. Your receiver may be seeing
>> broadcasts from the ground infrastructure for other aircraft (that are
>> equipped with ADS-B data-out and data-in capabilities). You really care
>> about traffic conflicts/threats to your aircraft, not threats to some
>> random third party aircraft, -- and that TIS-B and ADS-R traffic data
>> being broadcast for other aircraft may disappear off your traffic
>> display as that traffic flies away from that other aircraft...
>>
>> The usefulness of the 1090ES ADS-B receiver in the PowerFLARM will be
>> receiving 1090ES ADS-B direct signals from other aircraft as they equip.
>> with 1090ES data-out. High performance aircraft , especially airliners,
>> (because of 1990ES requirements for flight in Class A airspace and
>> European airspace flights) and many GA aircraft (because of the ease of
>> piggybacking the 1090ES electronics, certification and
>> sales/marketing/distribution costs onto existing popular GA transponder
>> products e.g, the Garmin GTX-330 ES/GTX-33 ES) and gliders (because of
>> the popularity of the 1090ES data-out capable Trig TT21/22
>> transponders). Currently the FAA is requiring STC approvals for ADS-B
>> data-out installs in all certified aircraft. That appears to have
>> effectively stalled ADS-B data-out adoption in GA aircraft in the USA,
>> although avionics vendors and their partners are working on STCs for
>> some popular aircraft types (no don't hold your breath for any glider
>> STCs).
>>
>> But it gets worse,... even assuming your DA-40 is eventfully upgraded to
>> ADS-B data-out with a GTX-33ES transponder (with the ADS-B data-out GPS
>> data typically provided by the GIA-63W already in the G1000 panel). Now
>> that aircraft has ADS-B data-out but no data-in (unless you also add a
>> Garmin 800 series traffic system). So the GTX33ES will not be configured
>> to transmit the capability code bits that tell the ground infrastructure
>> the aircraft has a 1090ES (or UAT) data-in capability. So you as a pilot
>> or owner/pilot approaches the aircraft with a PowerFLARM or any other
>> portable ADS-B receiver in you hand, what do you do? Can you practically
>> and legally change the ADS-B data-out capability code setup of the
>> GTX-33ES transponder? Do the transponder configuration menus even let
>> you do this? BTW when many avionics vendors (including Garmin) are asked
>> this question they get very shy...
>>
>> Again the use of PowerFLARM totady is for glider-glider or
>> glider-towplane use where with both aircraft having a PowerFLARM it all
>> "just works". The practical use of the 1090ES data-in capability of
>> PowerFLARM today is directly receiving 1090ES transmissions from those
>> aircraft equipped with 1090ES data-out. That's potentially interesting
>> today where we have say 1090ES equipped airliners flying near GA or
>> glider traffic. And for glider pilots who do own a PowerFLARM and have
>> buddies with experimental gliders (and therefore immune to ADS-B
>> data-out STC requirements) and Trig TT21/22 transponders--it is
>> potentially interesting to encourge those owners to enable ADS-B
>> data-out on their Trig transponders so you can potentially "see" them at
>> much longer distances than possible using PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM. It also
>> may be interesting to track those 1090ES equipped gliders from a 1090ES
>> ground station. (yes APRS folks, I know amateur radio based APRS
>> tracking is already well proven in practical use doing that today).
>>
>> There are web sites that use volunteer ground station receivers that
>> track ADS-B equipped flights (in practice they those systems are all
>> 1090ES based) traffic -- e.g. seehttp://www.radarvirtuel.comIf you
>> happen to live in an area that has ground receiver coverage from one of
>> these services it might give you an idea of the 1090ES data-out equipped
>> traffic near where you fly (its not much today... that current STC
>> requirement is a likely factor here, that adoption should change
>> significantly as we get closer to year 2020 mandatory ADS-B data out
>> carriage requirements for power aircraft, similar to transponder
>> requirements today). And I simply expect many of the more modern
>> transponder equipped GA aircraft to upgrade their transponders to add
>> 1090ES data out capability.
>>
>> Note I have not addressed whether the PowerFLARM will actually
>> receive/display ADS-R or TIS-B messages even if your aircraft is
>> properly set up with ADS-B data-out. I just don't know for sure if ADS-R
>> or TIS-B capability is supported today in the PowerFLARM--and for the
>> reasons described above its likely not even important to know. And you
>> likely want to display TIS-B traffic using different symbols and
>> implying the position is much less accurately known than ADS-B direct or
>> Flarm traffic. Attempting to Deduplicate TIS-B and Mode-C PCAS threats
>> is also a challenging area for PoweFLARM to implement well (but
>> relatively easy with Mode-S threats since both signals include a unique
>> ICAO ID). But overall given how messy ADS-B TIS-B is I am really happy
>> that the Flarm guys decided to implement Mode C and S PCAS in PoweFLARM
>> (an obvious choice in many ways since here is no TIS-B in Europe).
>>
>> Darryl
>
> How about someone from the FLARM team answering the simple question:
> Does PowerFlarm display TIS-B traffic received from a ADS-B ground
> station, assuming that the aircraft is properly transmitting a
> properly configured ADS-B out signal. The second logical question is
> whether PowerFlarm can function as a GPS source for the Trig 21/22
> transponder so that ADS-B out can be configured in those gliders that
> have both pieces of equipment.


The answer to the second question really depends on the question, is it
for the PowerFLARM to just "work" as a GPS source for ADS-B data-out or
to meet the FAA performance/certification requirements for the FAA 2020
carriage mandate? Since the PowerFLARM does not contain a TSO-C166b or
TSO-C154c GPS source it will never be usable to meet the FAA carriage
mandate requirements and also therefore unlikely to ever be approved as
part of the currently required installation STC for ADS-B data-out--and
therefore just not allowed today in any certified aircraft. But to the
extent the PowerFLARM can be set to just send plain NEMA data on its
serial connection and the Trig TT21/22 can be configured to receive GPS
data for ADS-B data-out over serial NEMA I expect this to work (in a
non-FAA approved way) today, with care needed in thinking abut if that
NEMA data-out serial connection from the PowerFLARM is also required to
provide extra things like GPS or Flarm traffic data traffic to PDA or
other navigation or traffic displays (just about all configurations
should be doable with a K6 NEMA Mux).

BTW no NEMA based GPS connection is every going to meet the current TSO
approval requirements since the extra capabilities of the aviation data
format used in TSO approved GPS sources is an important part of this
picture. The real hope here would be for the FAA to waive the ADS-B GPS
source TSO requirements for certain VFR traffic (including gliders).

The current Trig TT also does not meet the FAA's 2020 ADS-B data-out
carriage requirements. Specifically the TT21/22 are RTCA DO-260a
compliant devices and the FAA mandate requires DO-260b compliance (and
that is expected to just be a firmware update for the Trig TT-21/22
transponders, something that may well be in test/shipping already for
all I know. Other vendor's currently shipping ADS-B data out devices,
including 1090ES and UAT devices also do not met the latest aka "b-rev"
RTCA compliance required in the 2020 carriage mandate. The difference
between a and b-rev affects the interpretation/meaning of the capability
code bits and is potentially important to a discussion on TIS-B service,
but it is all so frigging complex, who know for sure....

Darryl

> Mike Schumann

[Robert Fidler[_3_]]

At 06:35 01 March 2012, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On 2/29/12 9:41 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
>> On Feb 29, 5:02 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>>> On 2/29/12 8:56 AM, Peter von Tresckow wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was going to meet up with a soaring buddy who has a Power Flarm,
and
>take
>>>> it flying in my flying club's DA40 to see what traffic it will
display.
>Our
>>>> DA40 has a G1000 with the old mode S traffic display, so we can
compare
>the
>>>> results.
>>>
>>>> My question is related to what the ADS-B in capabilities of the power
>flarm
>>>> are. Does it just receive the 1080ES signals from ADS-B equipped
>planes, or
>>>> does it also pick up on the ground station based traffic info?
>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>
>>> Actually it's a good question...and a very good thing to want to do
some
>>> tests/experiment with. Its the type of question that I hope any ADS-B
>>> data-in/receiver early adopter would ask. I'll try to give you a
>>> detailed enough answer to be useful, but let me know if this is not
>>> clear or needs more explanation. This is very USA specific. Things are
>>> simpler, at least in concept, in Europe and other locations that only
>>> support ADS-B over 1090ES and don't use the USA approach with both
>>> 1090ES and UAT link layers. European ATC organizations also do not
>>> provide TIS-B like services over 1090ES.
>>>
>>> In the USA ground based ADS-B traffic services are ADS-R and TIS-B.
>>> ADS-R is the relay of traffic broadcasts between UAT and 1090ES link
>>> layers and vice versa. TIS-B is the transmission of SSR radar derived
>>> traffic information over ADS-B and is analogous to the Mode S TIS
>>> service the DA40's G1000's GTX-33 transponder will receive today (but
>>> TIS-B is completely separate to/different in implementation to Mode-S
>TIS).
>>>
>>> The ground based ADS-B ADS-R and TIS-B services are only broadcast to
>>> your if your aircraft is equipped with ADS-B data-out, and that
data-out
>>> equipment needs to be properly configured to describe to that ground
>>> infrastructure in this case that you aircraft had a 1090 ES receiver.
>>> The ground based system then transmits ADS-R and TIS-B traffic data
for
>>> aircraft withing for a cylinder shaped volume surrounding your
aircraft.
>>> Since it is unlikely your DA-40 has 1090ES (or UAT) data-out the
ground
>>> based infrastructure simply won't transit those services for you. To
>>> receive these services you also need to be within range of an ADS-B
>>> ground station (aka Ground Based Transceiver -- GBT) and those ADS-R
and
>>> TIS-B services need to be deployed for the area you are flying in.
>>> (TIS-B especially requires complex integration with SSR radar
>>> systems--and you need to be clear if that TIS-B integration is for
>>> approach and/or area/enroute radar coverage). In general good luck
>>> trying to find out what exactly is deployed where and when and what
the
>>> actual low-altitude coverage you should expect where you fly -- but
the
>>> receiver should announce if you have or are leaving service coverage
>>> (again only if you have a properly configured ADS-B data-out
equipment).
>>> There are some popular gliding areas like around the great
>>> Basin/Parowan/Inyokern Valley where at least past FAA predictions of
>>> ADS-B ground station coverage were pretty horrible, in other areas it
>>> can be as good as down to hundreds of feet AGL or lower.
>>>
>>> Be careful doing quick tests and convincing yourself that any ADS-B
>>> system is receiving ADS-R or TIS-B data. Your receiver may be seeing
>>> broadcasts from the ground infrastructure for other aircraft (that are
>>> equipped with ADS-B data-out and data-in capabilities). You really
care
>>> about traffic conflicts/threats to your aircraft, not threats to some
>>> random third party aircraft, -- and that TIS-B and ADS-R traffic data
>>> being broadcast for other aircraft may disappear off your traffic
>>> display as that traffic flies away from that other aircraft...
>>>
>>> The usefulness of the 1090ES ADS-B receiver in the PowerFLARM will be
>>> receiving 1090ES ADS-B direct signals from other aircraft as they
equip.
>>> with 1090ES data-out. High performance aircraft , especially
airliners,
>>> (because of 1990ES requirements for flight in Class A airspace and
>>> European airspace flights) and many GA aircraft (because of the ease
of
>>> piggybacking the 1090ES electronics, certification and
>>> sales/marketing/distribution costs onto existing popular GA
transponder
>>> products e.g, the Garmin GTX-330 ES/GTX-33 ES) and gliders (because of
>>> the popularity of the 1090ES data-out capable Trig TT21/22
>>> transponders). Currently the FAA is requiring STC approvals for ADS-B
>>> data-out installs in all certified aircraft. That appears to have
>>> effectively stalled ADS-B data-out adoption in GA aircraft in the USA,
>>> although avionics vendors and their partners are working on STCs for
>>> some popular aircraft types (no don't hold your breath for any glider
>>> STCs).
>>>
>>> But it gets worse,... even assuming your DA-40 is eventfully upgraded
to
>>> ADS-B data-out with a GTX-33ES transponder (with the ADS-B data-out
GPS
>>> data typically provided by the GIA-63W already in the G1000 panel).
Now
>>> that aircraft has ADS-B data-out but no data-in (unless you also add a
>>> Garmin 800 series traffic system). So the GTX33ES will not be
configured
>>> to transmit the capability code bits that tell the ground
infrastructure
>>> the aircraft has a 1090ES (or UAT) data-in capability. So you as a
pilot
>>> or owner/pilot approaches the aircraft with a PowerFLARM or any other
>>> portable ADS-B receiver in you hand, what do you do? Can you
practically
>>> and legally change the ADS-B data-out capability code setup of the
>>> GTX-33ES transponder? Do the transponder configuration menus even let
>>> you do this? BTW when many avionics vendors (including Garmin) are
asked
>>> this question they get very shy...
>>>
>>> Again the use of PowerFLARM totady is for glider-glider or
>>> glider-towplane use where with both aircraft having a PowerFLARM it
all
>>> "just works". The practical use of the 1090ES data-in capability of
>>> PowerFLARM today is directly receiving 1090ES transmissions from those
>>> aircraft equipped with 1090ES data-out. That's potentially interesting
>>> today where we have say 1090ES equipped airliners flying near GA or
>>> glider traffic. And for glider pilots who do own a PowerFLARM and
have
>>> buddies with experimental gliders (and therefore immune to ADS-B
>>> data-out STC requirements) and Trig TT21/22 transponders--it is
>>> potentially interesting to encourge those owners to enable ADS-B
>>> data-out on their Trig transponders so you can potentially "see" them
at
>>> much longer distances than possible using PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM. It
also
>>> may be interesting to track those 1090ES equipped gliders from a
1090ES
>>> ground station. (yes APRS folks, I know amateur radio based APRS
>>> tracking is already well proven in practical use doing that today).
>>>
>>> There are web sites that use volunteer ground station receivers that
>>> track ADS-B equipped flights (in practice they those systems are all
>>> 1090ES based) traffic -- e.g. seehttp://www.radarvirtuel.comIf you
>>> happen to live in an area that has ground receiver coverage from one
of
>>> these services it might give you an idea of the 1090ES data-out
equipped
>>> traffic near where you fly (its not much today... that current STC
>>> requirement is a likely factor here, that adoption should change
>>> significantly as we get closer to year 2020 mandatory ADS-B data out
>>> carriage requirements for power aircraft, similar to transponder
>>> requirements today). And I simply expect many of the more modern
>>> transponder equipped GA aircraft to upgrade their transponders to add
>>> 1090ES data out capability.
>>>
>>> Note I have not addressed whether the PowerFLARM will actually
>>> receive/display ADS-R or TIS-B messages even if your aircraft is
>>> properly set up with ADS-B data-out. I just don't know for sure if
ADS-R
>>> or TIS-B capability is supported today in the PowerFLARM--and for the
>>> reasons described above its likely not even important to know. And you
>>> likely want to display TIS-B traffic using different symbols and
>>> implying the position is much less accurately known than ADS-B direct
or
>>> Flarm traffic. Attempting to Deduplicate TIS-B and Mode-C PCAS threats
>>> is also a challenging area for PoweFLARM to implement well (but
>>> relatively easy with Mode-S threats since both signals include a
unique
>>> ICAO ID). But overall given how messy ADS-B TIS-B is I am really happy
>>> that the Flarm guys decided to implement Mode C and S PCAS in
PoweFLARM
>>> (an obvious choice in many ways since here is no TIS-B in Europe).
>>>
>>> Darryl
>>
>> How about someone from the FLARM team answering the simple question:
>> Does PowerFlarm display TIS-B traffic received from a ADS-B ground
>> station, assuming that the aircraft is properly transmitting a
>> properly configured ADS-B out signal. The second logical question is
>> whether PowerFlarm can function as a GPS source for the Trig 21/22
>> transponder so that ADS-B out can be configured in those gliders that
>> have both pieces of equipment.
>
>
>The answer to the second question really depends on the question, is it
>for the PowerFLARM to just "work" as a GPS source for ADS-B data-out or
>to meet the FAA performance/certification requirements for the FAA 2020
>carriage mandate? Since the PowerFLARM does not contain a TSO-C166b or
>TSO-C154c GPS source it will never be usable to meet the FAA carriage
>mandate requirements and also therefore unlikely to ever be approved as
>part of the currently required installation STC for ADS-B data-out--and
>therefore just not allowed today in any certified aircraft. But to the
>extent the PowerFLARM can be set to just send plain NEMA data on its
>serial connection and the Trig TT21/22 can be configured to receive GPS
>data for ADS-B data-out over serial NEMA I expect this to work (in a
>non-FAA approved way) today, with care needed in thinking abut if that
>NEMA data-out serial connection from the PowerFLARM is also required to
>provide extra things like GPS or Flarm traffic data traffic to PDA or
>other navigation or traffic displays (just about all configurations
>should be doable with a K6 NEMA Mux).
>
>BTW no NEMA based GPS connection is every going to meet the current TSO
>approval requirements since the extra capabilities of the aviation data
>format used in TSO approved GPS sources is an important part of this
>picture. The real hope here would be for the FAA to waive the ADS-B GPS
>source TSO requirements for certain VFR traffic (including gliders).
>
>The current Trig TT also does not meet the FAA's 2020 ADS-B data-out
>carriage requirements. Specifically the TT21/22 are RTCA DO-260a
>compliant devices and the FAA mandate requires DO-260b compliance (and
>that is expected to just be a firmware update for the Trig TT-21/22
>transponders, something that may well be in test/shipping already for
>all I know. Other vendor's currently shipping ADS-B data out devices,
>including 1090ES and UAT devices also do not met the latest aka "b-rev"
>RTCA compliance required in the 2020 carriage mandate. The difference
>between a and b-rev affects the interpretation/meaning of the capability
>code bits and is potentially important to a discussion on TIS-B service,
>but it is all so frigging complex, who know for sure....
>
>Darryl
>
>> Mike Schumann
>
>

Guess what USA gliders pilots, gone are the days things were simple. You
have the SSA getting envolved with sailplane electronics or thinking they
are going to tell us what we can or can not use as far as instruments in a
glider, and now the FAA envolved in how gliders will provide and receive
airborn traffic data. First matter, it will be a cold day in hell the day
someone can tell me what I can or not have in my cockpit. Second matter.
get ready for ride regarding how the USPOWERFLARM will be integraded into
the US traffic Control System. I just can not wait for it to all unfold.
You may want to take up basket weaving for a while ladies and gents, until
this all shakes out.