Presidential TFRs

[G.R. Patterson III]

Well, with the usual application of logic by the SS, I guess we can expect the
TFRs to increase to 60nm radius. They'll probably cancel the ADIZ relaxation
test too.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_motorcade

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Peter Gottlieb]

Yes, but consider: If someone had used a small plane instead of a car they
could have *broken some windows* in the building instead of merely hitting
it!


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> Well, with the usual application of logic by the SS, I guess we can expect
the
> TFRs to increase to 60nm radius. They'll probably cancel the ADIZ
relaxation
> test too.
>
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_motorcade
>
> George Patterson
> You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the
mud.

[Judah]

With any luck, the SS will move the ADIZ from Washington, DC to Southhaven,
MI... That seems to be a bit more to their logic...

Actually, with a stroke of REAL luck, they will make a driving restriction
on mothers with child-safety seats and perhaps elderly people within a 30NM
radius of Shrubby... I think that would be quite a bit more effective.


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

> Well, with the usual application of logic by the SS, I guess we can
> expect the TFRs to increase to 60nm radius. They'll probably cancel the
> ADIZ relaxation test too.
>
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20031101/a
> p_on_go_pr_wh/bush_motorcade
>
> George Patterson
> You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in
> the mud.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:14:46 -0500, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>Well, with the usual application of logic by the SS, I guess we can expect the
>TFRs to increase to 60nm radius. They'll probably cancel the ADIZ relaxation
>test too.
>
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_motorcade
>


heck, nobody cares wheter the president was in his limo or in the arena.

What happend to the woman and how are the kids doing? There was some time
when Americans where concerned about the kids ... nowadays it seems that
the antiterrorist nazis searched the kids for explosives on their bodies
.....

it is all a brave new world.

#m

--
http://www.refuseandresist.org/

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:14:46 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>Well, with the usual application of logic by the SS, I guess we can expect the
>TFRs to increase to 60nm radius.
>
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_motorcade

Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the government to establish a
30 nm NO-DRIVE ZONE around Jr. Then there would be hope of the
nation's citizens clamoring to restrict baby Bush's domestic travels,
and we could all go about our business without his pseudo-security
footprint impacting our lives. :-)

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the government to establish a
> 30 nm NO-DRIVE ZONE around Jr.

Don't them any ideas. They already have the legal basis for doing so,
you know.

> Then there would be hope of the nation's citizens clamoring
> to restrict baby Bush's domestic travels, and we could all go
> about our business without his pseudo-security footprint
> impacting our lives.

Most Americans don't care about freedom today. They've turned into
weepy cowards who would rather hide under the bed and listen to promises
of illusory security from imaginary enemies than keep the liberties
their ancestors fought and died for.

--
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[[email protected]]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:47:30 +0100, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>Most Americans don't care about freedom today. They've turned into
>weepy cowards who would rather hide under the bed and listen to promises
>of illusory security from imaginary enemies than keep the liberties
>their ancestors fought and died for.

Perhaps. But if most Americans were more directly impacted by
irrational security measures (based upon political rather than
rational criteria) that usurp public liberty and right to due process,
perhaps they would find their voices. It's sure to occur as the
pendulum swings further and further right; there will eventually be a
significant backlash (please)....

[blanche cohen]

> wrote:
>Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the government to establish a
>30 nm NO-DRIVE ZONE around Jr.

A modified version of this already exists. Ever been in a city where
POTUS was visiting? Doesn't matter which one. All the local cops
line the ground route and block intersections and on-off ramps
of the freeways.

And always during rush hour when people are trying to get to work or
after, to pay the bills for these trips.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Perhaps. But if most Americans were more directly impacted by
> irrational security measures (based upon political rather than
> rational criteria) that usurp public liberty and right to due process,
> perhaps they would find their voices.

By the time most Americans are impacted by them, it will be too late.

In order to protect your freedoms, you must protect them for others,
too. Waiting until the secret police come to arrest you personally is
waiting too long.

> It's sure to occur as the pendulum swings further and further
> right; there will eventually be a significant backlash (please)....

I doubt it. Most democracies self-destruct in this way, as people trade
freedoms for security. Sometimes it's planes hitting towers, sometimes
it's burning of the Reichstag, but the powers that be always find
excuses to tighten the leash, and complacent populations, who have
forgotten that freedoms are never guaranteed, and who have also
forgotten that the world isn't as dangerous as CNN or the government
might claim, are more than willing to toss their hard-won liberties out
the window in exchange for a few empty promises.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

blanche cohen writes:

> And always during rush hour when people are trying to get to work or
> after, to pay the bills for these trips.

Nobody ever complained in the past, and now it's illegal to complain.

--
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[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:17:44 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:

>By the time most Americans are impacted by them, it will be too late.

---quote

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me —
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

---unquote

by Pastor Martin Niemoeller (see http://www.refuseandresist.org/)

#m
--
http://www.refuseandresist.org/

[A Lieberman]

Judah wrote:
>
> With any luck, the SS will move the ADIZ from Washington, DC to Southhaven,
> MI... That seems to be a bit more to their logic...

I won't complain since the incident happened in MS.

Allen

[G.R. Patterson III]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> Nobody ever complained in the past, and now it's illegal to complain.

Really? Dunno where you live, but the local radio stations in Atlanta bitched
like hell when Carter came to town. When Gore closed the Garden State Parkway
during rush hour to allend a fundraiser at Bon Jovi's house, there was serious
fear that it would cost the Democrats heavily in the next New Jersey election.
And the traffic problems caused by GWB's latest visit to New York attracted a
lot of media criticism.

In short, people have been complaining about these TDRs for at least 30 years,
and, since all of the local DJs are still on the loose, it's quite clear that
it's still legal to do so.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Mxsmanic]

G.R. Patterson III writes:

> Really? Dunno where you live, but the local radio stations in Atlanta bitched
> like hell when Carter came to town.

And what procedures were changed in response to the complaints?

> When Gore closed the Garden State Parkway during rush hour to allend
> a fundraiser at Bon Jovi's house, there was serious fear that it would
> cost the Democrats heavily in the next New Jersey election.

But did it?

> And the traffic problems caused by GWB's latest visit to New York attracted a
> lot of media criticism.

So?

> In short, people have been complaining about these TDRs for at least 30 years,
> and, since all of the local DJs are still on the loose, it's quite clear that
> it's still legal to do so.

If they've been complaining about them for 30 years, why are they still
in effect?

--
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[Newps]

Martin Hotze wrote:

>
> First they came for the Jews
> and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.
>
> Then they came for the communists
> and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.
>
> Then they came for the trade unionists
> and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.
>
> Then they came for me —
> and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

And anyone who saw the tape of the torture going on in Iraq that was all
over the news this week here in the States would not question our going in.

[Newps]

Mxsmanic wrote:


> If they've been complaining about them for 30 years, why are they still
> in effect?
>

Which is a good question, but the fact remains it is legal.

[Morgans]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:8hdpb.87467$Tr4.224855@attbi_s03...

> And anyone who saw the tape of the torture going on in Iraq that was all
> over the news this week here in the States would not question our going
in.

Do yourself a favor and killfil this bozo, and anyone else coming in here
spouting political agenda. I am here to get along with everyone, as long as
our common ground is aviation. Stop replys to this crap, and soon it will
go away. Too bad some do not have enough self discipline to do that.
--
Jim in NC

[Mxsmanic]

Newps writes:

> And anyone who saw the tape of the torture going on
> in Iraq that was all over the news this week here in
> the States would not question our going in.

If the U.S. government would just distribute tapes of its own torture
sessions, we wouldn't have to go to Iraq to find them.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Newps writes:

> Which is a good question, but the fact remains it is legal.

They've never been subjected to a test of their constitutionality, as
far as I know. Then again, not too many people worry about the
Constitution anymore--it just interferes with the War on Terror (a/k/a
War on Drugs, a/k/a War on Eastasia, or is it Eurasia?).

--
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[Morgans]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Newps writes:
>
> > And anyone who saw the tape of the torture going on
> > in Iraq that was all over the news this week here in
> > the States would not question our going in.
>
> If the U.S. government would just distribute tapes of its own torture
> sessions, we wouldn't have to go to Iraq to find them.
>
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Thanks for making easy to make these tough decisions.
Plonk
See what I mean?
--
Jim in NC

[Newps]

The protest is what's legal, contrary to what you claimed.

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Newps writes:
>
>
>>Which is a good question, but the fact remains it is legal.
>
>
> They've never been subjected to a test of their constitutionality, as
> far as I know. Then again, not too many people worry about the
> Constitution anymore--it just interferes with the War on Terror (a/k/a
> War on Drugs, a/k/a War on Eastasia, or is it Eurasia?).
>

[Newps]

I am not a bozo. I am a cabal. Where have you been?

Morgans wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> news:8hdpb.87467$Tr4.224855@attbi_s03...
>
>
>>And anyone who saw the tape of the torture going on in Iraq that was all
>>over the news this week here in the States would not question our going
>
> in.
>
> Do yourself a favor and killfil this bozo, and anyone else coming in here
> spouting political agenda. I am here to get along with everyone, as long as
> our common ground is aviation. Stop replys to this crap, and soon it will
> go away. Too bad some do not have enough self discipline to do that.

[Mxsmanic]

Newps writes:

> The protest is what's legal, contrary to what you claimed.

Not if it is assimilated with a terrorist act.

--
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[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:53:40 GMT, Newps wrote:

>And anyone who saw the tape of the torture going on in Iraq that was all
>over the news this week here in the States would not question our going in.

at least the US propaganda machinery is working, eh? :-)



the only news from Iraq we daily see is some sort of this:
- some US soldiers killed and wounded
- red cross etc. leaving the country
- some idiots saying "_now_ after the war" and don't realize that there is
still war (at least officially)
- rebuilding does not happen
- religious fundamentalist winning ground

[...personal statement snipped...]

#m

--
http://www.refuseandresist.org/

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:30:07 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:

>If the U.S. government would just distribute tapes of its own torture
>sessions, we wouldn't have to go to Iraq to find them.

you mean like this? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cia+artichoke

#m

--
http://www.refuseandresist.org/

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:40:21 -0500, Morgans wrote:

>Thanks for making easy to make these tough decisions.
>Plonk
>See what I mean?

me too, me too. pleeeeeeezzze. will you also plonk me?

#m
--
http://www.refuseandresist.org/

[Morgans]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:A%dpb.86585$HS4.720582@attbi_s01...
> I am not a bozo. I am a cabal. Where have you been?
>

What you say may be true, may not be. I WILL NOT argue it here. This is
aviation, not politics, world opinion, or anything else. I will choose to
ignore you and your propaganda, from now on.

Good day.

[[email protected]]

On 2 Nov 2003 09:37:01 -0700, (blanche cohen)
wrote:

> > wrote:
>>Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the government to establish a
>>30 nm NO-DRIVE ZONE around Jr.
>
>A modified version of this already exists.

As this incident demonstrates, such a security measure is as
unrentable as the presidential TFRs in its effectiveness.

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:17:44 +0100, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>I doubt it. Most democracies self-destruct in this way, as people trade
>freedoms for security. Sometimes it's planes hitting towers, sometimes
>it's burning of the Reichstag, but the powers that be always find
>excuses to tighten the leash ...

Do implications count?
http://members.tripod.com/~goodwin_2/law.html

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Do implications count?

I wondered that myself, but the analogy seemed so apt ...

--
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