Liability Insurance for a Winch Operation?

[Randy Teel]

We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
paying?

Thanks for your time!

Randy Teel
Tulsa, OK

[T[_2_]]

On Mar 6, 9:51*am, Randy Teel > wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK

Have you contacted Costello Insurance through the SSA Group Policy?
Both Club and Commercial insurance should be available.

[GM]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK

I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?


On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK

[Randy Teel]

Yes, I have contacted Costello Insurance, but I was checking to see
what other options that I might have. I want to find out what other
clubs are doing?

[T[_2_]]

On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM > wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> > We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> > in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> > what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> > paying?
>
> > Thanks for your time!
>
> > Randy Teel
> > Tulsa, OK
>
> I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?
>

I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.
I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.
I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
penetrates the crew area.

T

[Bill D]

On Mar 6, 7:43*pm, T > wrote:

Comments interspersed below...
> > I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?

Contact an insurer like Costello for a sample policy. These things
change rapidly.
>
> I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
> protected from theft or fire.

Winches are vehicles covered by collision insurance. They can also be
covered by premises insurance. The coverage amount is whatever you
want to buy.

> I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
> critical time could result in loss of a glider.

It may seem outrageous to the uninformed but there is nothing a winch
can do to put a skilled pilot or his glider at risk. Winches don't
break gliders - pilots do.

> I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
> hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
> penetrates the crew area.

This question suggests the need for winch training. These things
should never happen at a well-run winch operation. However, if they
did, they would be covered by the winch liability policy. Again the
coverage is whatever you want to buy.

As an example of how safe winch operations can be, look at the German
accident statistics. The last numbers I have say they did 1.7 million
launches for 3 fatalities in 17 total accidents. Compare that to US
aero tow accidents with far fewer launches. I have no doubt, given
the same level of skill, winch launch is at least a couple of orders
of magnitude safer than aero tow.

[GM]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
> On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM > wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> > > We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> > > in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> > > what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> > > paying?
> >
> > > Thanks for your time!
> >
> > > Randy Teel
> > > Tulsa, OK
> >
> > I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?
> >
>
> I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
> protected from theft or fire.
> I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
> critical time could result in loss of a glider.
> I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
> hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
> penetrates the crew area.
>
> T

>>>> I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire. <<<<
Agree - a winch is an investment and asset for a club.

>>>> I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider. <<<<
So - is there an insurance covering the glider when the tow-plane's engine fails at 200ft over the airport fence? And when this happens, do you follow the tow-plane to the crash site? No, you release and switch to plan 'B'. So why would it be any different with a winch launch? If the winch fails, you land - depending on when it happens - straight ahead, downwind or after executing an abreviated pattern.

>>>> I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line penetrates the crew area. <<<<
What - you plan on launching right across Grand Central Station? No person is permitted in front of the tow-plane or glider during the launch. The same applies for winch launch operations. Using Spectra and the right tackle will make broken lines a thing of the past.

I am still not sure what the winch insurance offered through the SSA actually covers.





On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
> On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM > wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> > > We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> > > in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> > > what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> > > paying?
> >
> > > Thanks for your time!
> >
> > > Randy Teel
> > > Tulsa, OK
> >
> > I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?
> >
>
> I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
> protected from theft or fire.
> I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
> critical time could result in loss of a glider.
> I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
> hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
> penetrates the crew area.
>
> T

[T[_2_]]

On Mar 6, 7:58*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Mar 6, 7:43*pm, T > wrote:
>
> Comments interspersed below...
>
> > > I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?
>
> Contact an insurer like Costello for a sample policy. *These things
> change rapidly.
>
>
>
> > I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
> > protected from theft or fire.
>
> Winches are vehicles covered by collision insurance. *They can also be
> covered by premises insurance. *The coverage amount is whatever you
> want to buy.
>
> > I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
> > critical time could result in loss of a glider.
>
> It may seem outrageous to the uninformed but there is nothing a winch
> can do to put a skilled pilot or his glider at risk. *Winches don't
> break gliders - pilots do.
>
> > I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
> > hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
> > penetrates the crew area.
>
> This question suggests the need for winch training. *These things
> should never happen at a well-run winch operation. *However, if they
> did, they would be covered by the winch liability policy. *Again the
> coverage is whatever you want to buy.
>
> As an example of how safe winch operations can be, look at the German
> accident statistics. *The last numbers I have say they did 1.7 million
> launches for 3 fatalities in 17 total accidents. *Compare that to US
> aero tow accidents with far fewer launches. *I have no doubt, given
> the same level of skill, winch launch is at least a couple of orders
> of magnitude safer than aero tow.

I agree with everything you say.
Assets need to be protected, property insurance, premises insurances,
operations insurance.
And in event the pilot screws up and wreaks his glider and perhaps
injures himself, the family or estate will be after any pocket they
can find.
And yes, a well run operation should not have personal injuries to
anyone, but we all know accidents happen.
Remember the "spectator" injury during a launch at the national
contest in Tonopah years ago.

T

[T[_2_]]

On Mar 6, 8:12*pm, GM > wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
> > On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM > wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> > > > We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> > > > in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> > > > what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> > > > paying?
>
> > > > Thanks for your time!
>
> > > > Randy Teel
> > > > Tulsa, OK
>
> > > I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?
>
> > I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
> > protected from theft or fire.
> > I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
> > critical time could result in loss of a glider.
> > I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
> > hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
> > penetrates the crew area.
>
> > T
> >>>> I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
>
> protected from theft or fire. <<<<
> Agree - a winch is an investment and asset for a club.
>
> >>>> I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
>
> critical time could result in loss of a glider. <<<<
> So - is there an insurance covering the glider when the tow-plane's engine fails at 200ft over the airport fence? And when this happens, do you follow the tow-plane to the crash site? No, you release and switch to plan 'B'. So why would it be any different with a winch launch? If the winch fails, you land - depending on when it happens - straight ahead, downwind or after executing an abreviated pattern.
>
> >>>> I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
>
> hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line penetrates the crew area. <<<<
> What - you plan on launching right across Grand Central Station? No person is permitted in front of the tow-plane or glider during the launch. The same applies for winch launch operations. Using Spectra and the right tackle will make broken lines a thing of the past.
>
> I am still not sure what the winch insurance offered through the SSA actually covers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
> > On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM > wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> > > > We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> > > > in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> > > > what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> > > > paying?
>
> > > > Thanks for your time!
>
> > > > Randy Teel
> > > > Tulsa, OK
>
> > > I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?
>
> > I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
> > protected from theft or fire.
> > I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
> > critical time could result in loss of a glider.
> > I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
> > hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
> > penetrates the crew area.
>
> > T

If the tow plane engine fails at 100 ft and the glider ends up in the
trees, everyone blames everyone else and the engine failure on tow
becomes a causal factor. People go for each others pockets. Granted if
the glider and tow have the same underwriter, they are only paying
each other.

Accidents happen, people move when you least expect and move to where
they should not be. Ropes, wire break and whip under stress.

T

[GM]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK



On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK



On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK



On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK



On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
> We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
> in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
> what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
> paying?
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> Randy Teel
> Tulsa, OK

>>> Ropes, wire break and whip under stress. <<<
No, they don't, if you use Spectra. Steel cables did that but it should not be used anymore. Costello made that point clear: winches with steel cable or solid wire will be uninsurable. Ask any operation that switched from steel to Spectra or similar - they will tell you what difference it made. We have not had a single line failiure since we switched.
I highly recommend that before you start operating a winch at your club to get in touch with other operations and get advise on the general procedures..
Keep it safe,
Uli

[GARY BOGGS]

> Remember the "spectator" injury during a launch at the national
> contest in Tonopah years ago.


I remember Tonopah well...

I agree that winching can be much safer than aerotow. It is very
important that you get experienced people to train you before starting
up a winch operation. There was no additional charge to our liability
coverage for adding a winch launch to our operation. That was many
years ago tho.

Boggs

[Bill D]

On Mar 6, 10:01*pm, T > wrote:

> Remember the "spectator" injury during a launch at the national
> contest in Tonopah years ago.
>
> T

I do remember. That operation would have violated a major rule of
winch launch. That rule is no one or thing can occupy an exclusion
area between the glider and winch. If someone enters the exclusion
area, the launch is held until the "deck" is clear. The exclusion
area will have slightly different definitions depending on airfield
layout but it is designed to prevent Tonopah-like accidents even in
extreme loss of control situations.

Aero tow operations would be well advised to copy this rule.

This concept has been extended to the hook-up operation by using Tost
quick-links. The strop/safety rope is attached to the glider without
being attached to the winch rope. The final safety rope-winch rope
connection is made by someone standing out of harm's way and then only
when the pilot signals readiness. This way inadvertent rope motion
can't put the hook-up/wing runner at risk.

Winch operations have very carefully thought out safety procedures
which must be scrupulously observed. It's easier to get people to
obey safety rules with winch launch since it LOOKS dangerous even
though it isn't.

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Bill, I find that interesting. I have never seen that done in many winch
operations at different sites in the UK, and we have a different practice
(from the remote hook up) to avoid a different scenario.

Do you have a complete set of your winch safety precautions? I would be
interested to compare it with our UK norms (not that we have a complete
detailed set all in one place covering all UK operations – but we have
some national ones, and I have seen quite a few operations in practice).

Regards – Chris N.

At 17:31 07 March 2012, Bill D wrote:
>I do remember. That operation would have violated a major rule of
>winch launch. That rule is no one or thing can occupy an exclusion
>area between the glider and winch. If someone enters the exclusion
>area, the launch is held until the "deck" is clear. The exclusion
>area will have slightly different definitions depending on airfield
>layout but it is designed to prevent Tonopah-like accidents even in
>extreme loss of control situations.
>
>Aero tow operations would be well advised to copy this rule.
>
>This concept has been extended to the hook-up operation by using Tost
>quick-links. The strop/safety rope is attached to the glider without
>being attached to the winch rope. The final safety rope-winch rope
>connection is made by someone standing out of harm's way and then only
>when the pilot signals readiness. This way inadvertent rope motion
>can't put the hook-up/wing runner at risk.
>
>Winch operations have very carefully thought out safety procedures
>which must be scrupulously observed. It's easier to get people to
>obey safety rules with winch launch since it LOOKS dangerous even
>though it isn't.
>
>
>
>

[Bill D]

On Mar 7, 7:13*pm, Chris Nicholas > wrote:
> Bill, I find that interesting. I have never seen that done in many winch
> operations at different sites in the UK, and we have a different practice
> (from the remote hook up) to avoid a different scenario.
>
> Do you have a complete set of your winch safety precautions? *I would be
> interested to compare it with our UK norms (not that we have a complete
> detailed set all in one place covering all UK operations – but we have
> some national ones, and I have seen quite a few operations in practice).
>
> Regards – Chris N.
>
> At 17:31 07 March 2012, Bill D wrote:
> *>I do remember. *That operation would have violated a major rule of
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >winch launch. *That rule is no one or thing can occupy an exclusion
> >area between the glider and winch. *If someone enters the exclusion
> >area, the launch is held until the "deck" is clear. *The exclusion
> >area will have slightly different definitions depending on airfield
> >layout but it is designed to prevent Tonopah-like accidents even in
> >extreme loss of control situations.
>
> >Aero tow operations would be well advised to copy this rule.
>
> >This concept has been extended to the hook-up operation by using Tost
> >quick-links. *The strop/safety rope is attached to the glider without
> >being attached to the winch rope. *The final safety rope-winch rope
> >connection is made by someone standing out of harm's way and then only
> >when the pilot signals readiness. *This way inadvertent rope motion
> >can't put the hook-up/wing runner at risk.
>
> >Winch operations have very carefully thought out safety procedures
> >which must be scrupulously observed. *It's easier to get people to
> >obey safety rules with winch launch since it LOOKS dangerous even
> >though it isn't.

Chris, I've sent you my "Field Operations Guide".

I recently re-read the BGA winch operation and training guides and
find them dramatically improved in the last few years.

[RL]

Back to the original question - Except for insuring the winch itself
as an airport vehicle, we do not pay any extra insurance for our winch
operation. The coverage is for flight operations and there is no
distinction between aerotow or winch operations. USAIG is our carrier
and does not have the litney of restrictions and limitations that the
"group" plan has through the well known agent.

Bob

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Bil, got it, thaanks. I will get back to you by email. Chris.

[Bill D]

On Mar 7, 8:02*pm, RL > wrote:
> Back to the original question - Except for insuring the winch itself
> as an airport vehicle, we do not pay any extra insurance for our winch
> operation. The coverage is for flight operations and there is no
> distinction between aerotow or winch operations. USAIG is our carrier
> and does not have the litney of restrictions and limitations that the
> "group" plan has through the well known agent.
>
> Bob

I think the difference in the policies is Costello's policy keeps the
winch insurance in effect if you take the winch to a different
airfield whereas USAIG's winch coverage is part of your premises
insurance so it is only effective on your airfield. I could be out of
date on that.

[Sean Fidler]

http://aircrashed.com/cause/cLAX02LA231.shtml

Scary. Will keep this very much in mind at our contest this summer.

Sean
F2

[RL]

Bill - Our winch operations are covered for off-site activity in the
same way aero-tow ops are covered if we were to fly from another
field.

Bob

On Mar 7, 11:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 8:02*pm, RL > wrote:
>
> I think the difference in the policies is Costello's policy keeps the
> winch insurance in effect if you take the winch to a different
> airfield whereas USAIG's winch coverage is part of your premises
> insurance so it is only effective on your airfield. *I could be out of
> date on that.