IGC Changes that would affect flyWithCE Flight Recorder (in a good way)

[urosp]

My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
or simply record their flights.

But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.

On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted.
The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).

The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
published.

If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
please visit http://www.flywithce.com.

Best regards

Uros Podlogar
www.flywithce.com

[fredblair]

On Mar 8, 2:05*pm, urosp > wrote:
> My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
> they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
> at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
> flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
> or simply record their flights.
>
> But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
> could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
> Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
> Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
> Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
> recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.
>
> On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
> Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
> need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted.
> The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
> should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
> error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).
>
> The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
> published.
>
> If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
> flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
> please visithttp://www.flywithce.com.
>
> Best regards
>
> Uros Podlogarwww.flywithce.com

Any idea when the Sporting Code will be printed, so that we can start,
officially using the Position Recorders?

Another question, in the above post, it says that you might want to
use an 1,100 meter gain for the Silver Badge to make sure for GPS
errors; how is the SSA Badge Dude going to know what the "real"
altitude is, if the only reported data will be the GPS altitude??

Fred Blair

[Brad[_2_]]

On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, fredblair > wrote:
> On Mar 8, 2:05*pm, urosp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
> > they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
> > at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
> > flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
> > or simply record their flights.
>
> > But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
> > could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
> > Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
> > Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
> > Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
> > recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.
>
> > On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
> > Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
> > need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted.
> > The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
> > should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
> > error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).
>
> > The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
> > published.
>
> > If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
> > flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
> > please visithttp://www.flywithce.com.
>
> > Best regards
>
> > Uros Podlogarwww.flywithce.com
>
> Any idea when the Sporting Code will be printed, so that we can start,
> officially using the Position Recorders?
>
> Another question, in the above post, it says that you might want to
> use an 1,100 meter gain for the Silver Badge to make sure for GPS
> errors; how is the SSA Badge Dude going to know what the "real"
> altitude is, if the only reported data will be the GPS altitude??
>
> Fred Blair

You almost start to feel like glider pilots are a bunch of cheaters
that will stop at nothing to win or get a badge: they need an AH in
their panels so they can cloud fly, or they use secret apps on their I-
phones that they'll load once airborne.........now they're gonna
jigger their GPS trace to get extra altitude................jeez, I'm
glad I'm just a lowly blue circle OLC pilot!

Brad

[Marc]

On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, fredblair > wrote:
> On Mar 8, 2:05*pm, urosp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
> > they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
> > at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
> > flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
> > or simply record their flights.
>
> > But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
> > could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
> > Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
> > Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
> > Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
> > recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.
>
> > On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
> > Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
> > need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted.
> > The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
> > should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
> > error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).
>
> > The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
> > published.
>
> > If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
> > flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
> > please visithttp://www.flywithce.com.
>
> > Best regards
>
> > Uros Podlogarwww.flywithce.com
>
> Any idea when the Sporting Code will be printed, so that we can start,
> officially using the Position Recorders?
>
> Another question, in the above post, it says that you might want to
> use an 1,100 meter gain for the Silver Badge to make sure for GPS
> errors; how is the SSA Badge Dude going to know what the "real"
> altitude is, if the only reported data will be the GPS altitude??

Updates to Sporting Code Section 3 are normally released on October
1. You must gain 1100 meters as measured by the GPS, rather than the
1000 meters that would be acceptable using pressure altitude. The
extra margin is intended to increase the likelihood that the
"geopotential" altitude gain (as measured by GPS) will exceed the
pressure altitude gain required by the Sporting Code...

Marc

[Mike C]

On Mar 9, 10:15*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, fredblair > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 8, 2:05*pm, urosp > wrote:
>
> > > My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
> > > they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
> > > at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
> > > flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
> > > or simply record their flights.
>
> > > But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
> > > could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
> > > Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
> > > Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
> > > Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
> > > recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.
>
> > > On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
> > > Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
> > > need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted.
> > > The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
> > > should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
> > > error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).
>
> > > The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
> > > published.
>
> > > If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
> > > flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
> > > please visithttp://www.flywithce.com.
>
> > > Best regards
>
> > > Uros Podlogarwww.flywithce.com
>
> > Any idea when the Sporting Code will be printed, so that we can start,
> > officially using the Position Recorders?
>
> > Another question, in the above post, it says that you might want to
> > use an 1,100 meter gain for the Silver Badge to make sure for GPS
> > errors; how is the SSA Badge Dude going to know what the "real"
> > altitude is, if the only reported data will be the GPS altitude??
>
> > Fred Blair
>
> You almost start to feel like glider pilots are a bunch of cheaters
> that will stop at nothing to win or get a badge: they need an AH in
> their panels so they can cloud fly, or they use secret apps on their I-
> phones that they'll load once airborne.........now they're gonna
> jigger their GPS trace to get extra altitude................jeez, I'm
> glad I'm just a lowly blue circle OLC pilot!
>
> Brad

The extra 100 meters allows for the GPS error compared to pressure
altitude. I do not think it has anything to do with trust. My GPS alt
is always reading higher than my pressure altitude when both are are
shown in XCSOAR.

[Marc]

On Mar 9, 9:15*pm, Brad > wrote:
> You almost start to feel like glider pilots are a bunch of cheaters
> that will stop at nothing to win or get a badge: they need an AH in
> their panels so they can cloud fly, or they use secret apps on their I-
> phones that they'll load once airborne.........now they're gonna
> jigger their GPS trace to get extra altitude................jeez, I'm
> glad I'm just a lowly blue circle OLC pilot!

Well, how would you suggest we deal with the fact that a 1000 meter
gain measured by the GPS may physically place the glider either higher
or lower than a 1000 meter gain measured by a pressure altimeter on
the same day? We traditionally measured height and gain by using
pressure differentials mapped to an abstract model of the atmosphere,
allowing both methods of measurement requires some sort of
compromise...

Marc

[Marc]

On Mar 9, 9:21*pm, Mike C > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 10:15*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, fredblair > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 8, 2:05*pm, urosp > wrote:
>
> > > > My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
> > > > they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
> > > > at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
> > > > flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
> > > > or simply record their flights.
>
> > > > But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
> > > > could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
> > > > Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
> > > > Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
> > > > Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
> > > > recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.
>
> > > > On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
> > > > Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
> > > > need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted..
> > > > The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
> > > > should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
> > > > error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).
>
> > > > The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
> > > > published.
>
> > > > If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
> > > > flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
> > > > please visithttp://www.flywithce.com.
>
> > > > Best regards
>
> > > > Uros Podlogarwww.flywithce.com
>
> > > Any idea when the Sporting Code will be printed, so that we can start,
> > > officially using the Position Recorders?
>
> > > Another question, in the above post, it says that you might want to
> > > use an 1,100 meter gain for the Silver Badge to make sure for GPS
> > > errors; how is the SSA Badge Dude going to know what the "real"
> > > altitude is, if the only reported data will be the GPS altitude??
>
> > > Fred Blair
>
> > You almost start to feel like glider pilots are a bunch of cheaters
> > that will stop at nothing to win or get a badge: they need an AH in
> > their panels so they can cloud fly, or they use secret apps on their I-
> > phones that they'll load once airborne.........now they're gonna
> > jigger their GPS trace to get extra altitude................jeez, I'm
> > glad I'm just a lowly blue circle OLC pilot!
>
> > Brad
>
> The extra 100 meters allows for the GPS error compared to pressure
> altitude. I do not think it has anything to do with trust. My GPS alt
> is always reading higher than my pressure altitude when both are are
> shown in XCSOAR.

GPS altitude errors are generally small compared to pressure altimetry
errors, the extra 100 meters is actually intended to make up for the
latter. We measure altitude according to an abstract pressure/
altitude model based on a specific atmospheric temperature gradient
defined by the International Standard Atmosphere, in reality the real
world atmosphere *never* matches the model. On cold days pressure
altimeters typically read higher than the actual elevation, on hot
days they read lower, and the error generally increases with
increasing altitude...

Marc

[Brad[_2_]]

On Mar 9, 9:40*pm, Marc > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 9:15*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
> > You almost start to feel like glider pilots are a bunch of cheaters
> > that will stop at nothing to win or get a badge: they need an AH in
> > their panels so they can cloud fly, or they use secret apps on their I-
> > phones that they'll load once airborne.........now they're gonna
> > jigger their GPS trace to get extra altitude................jeez, I'm
> > glad I'm just a lowly blue circle OLC pilot!
>
> Well, how would you suggest we deal with the fact that a 1000 meter
> gain measured by the GPS may physically place the glider either higher
> or lower than a 1000 meter gain measured by a pressure altimeter on
> the same day? *We traditionally measured height and gain by using
> pressure differentials mapped to an abstract model of the atmosphere,
> allowing both methods of measurement requires some sort of
> compromise...
>
> Marc

Marc, It was a tongue in cheek comment...........sorry.........:)

Brad

[Marc]

On Mar 9, 10:02*pm, Brad > wrote:
> > Well, how would you suggest we deal with the fact that a 1000 meter
> > gain measured by the GPS may physically place the glider either higher
> > or lower than a 1000 meter gain measured by a pressure altimeter on
> > the same day? *We traditionally measured height and gain by using
> > pressure differentials mapped to an abstract model of the atmosphere,
> > allowing both methods of measurement requires some sort of
> > compromise...
>
> > Marc
>
> Marc, It was a tongue in cheek comment...........sorry.........:)
>

You, I, and others may know that, but not everyone is in on the joke.
You really want to risk starting another 200 message thread? ;^)

Marc

[fredblair]

On Mar 10, 12:15*am, Brad > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, fredblair > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 8, 2:05*pm, urosp > wrote:
>
> > > My strong belief is that most pilots fly for fun and because of that
> > > they do not need fully certified flight recorders (where the price is
> > > at least 5 times higher). They would either like to improve their
> > > flying, share flights with other pilots, attend on-line competitions
> > > or simply record their flights.
>
> > > But from the beginning I have received several suggestions that device
> > > could be also certified as position recorder with NAC (National Air
> > > Sport Control). Several people helped me and now flyWithCE Flight
> > > Recorders are certified by NAC in Australia, Canada, Slovenia, United
> > > Kingdom and United States. The device could be then used as position
> > > recorder for Silver and Gold FAI badges.
>
> > > On 2nd and 3rd of March there was and IGC Plenary Meeting in South
> > > Africa where they decided that for Silver and Gold badges you do not
> > > need extra altitude recorder and that GPS altitude will be accepted.
> > > The difference with fully certified flight recorders is that pilot
> > > should account 100 meter altitude margin for possible GPS altitude
> > > error (for instance 1100 meter gain of height for Silver badge).
>
> > > The new rule will be applied when updated Sporting Code will be
> > > published.
>
> > > If you wild like to know more about flyWithCE Flight Recorder and
> > > flyWithCE Logbook software (which ships together with the device)
> > > please visithttp://www.flywithce.com.
>
> > > Best regards
>
> > > Uros Podlogarwww.flywithce.com
>
> > Any idea when the Sporting Code will be printed, so that we can start,
> > officially using the Position Recorders?
>
> > Another question, in the above post, it says that you might want to
> > use an 1,100 meter gain for the Silver Badge to make sure for GPS
> > errors; how is the SSA Badge Dude going to know what the "real"
> > altitude is, if the only reported data will be the GPS altitude??
>
> > Fred Blair
>
> You almost start to feel like glider pilots are a bunch of cheaters
> that will stop at nothing to win or get a badge: they need an AH in
> their panels so they can cloud fly, or they use secret apps on their I-
> phones that they'll load once airborne.........now they're gonna
> jigger their GPS trace to get extra altitude................jeez, I'm
> glad I'm just a lowly blue circle OLC pilot!
>
> Brad

My question had nothing to do with 'cheating'. I am an Instructor and
I will be responsible for teaching members how to properly use these
new devices to obtain their badges. My question was just a question
of fact: if the GPS altitude shown in the IGC file is going to be
accepted as the altitude of the flight, then why do we worry about
pressure altitude? I thought the whole idea of approving the
'position recorders' was to eliminate the need for the more expensive
units that include a calibrated pressure sensor.

A couple of posts after this, makes a statement that we will still
need pressure altitude, since that is what is in Sporting Code 3.
Isn't the new Sporting Code going to be re-written to eliminate the
pressure altitude requirement.

Fred

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/10/2012 2:52 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> So... Is my CAI 302 insufficient to claim a 1,000 KM diploma? Do I need
> to find my old Replogle barograph, get it calibrated, and find some
> papers? If that be the case, I'll just post on OLC should I complete the
> flight.

It is approved for all flights - always has been. Here's a list of
approvals...

http://www.fai.org/component/phocadownload/category/854-approved_flight_recorders?download=5257:igc-approved-flight-recorders

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Marc]

On Mar 10, 2:52*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> So... *Is my CAI 302 insufficient to claim a 1,000 KM diploma? *Do I need to
> find my old Replogle barograph, get it calibrated, and find some papers? *If
> that be the case, I'll just post on OLC should I complete the flight.

As Eric indicated, the CAI 302 is an IGC approved "flight recorder"
for all flight performances, no barograph needed. This thread is
talking about "position recorders" which handled differently by the
Sporting Code, as they are not approved flight recorders, and most do
not record pressure altitude, just GPS altitude. They can be used for
Silver and Gold badges only...

Marc

[Marc]

On Mar 10, 10:52*am, fredblair > wrote:
> My question had nothing to do with 'cheating'. *I am an Instructor and
> I will be responsible for teaching members how to properly use these
> new devices to obtain their badges. *My question was just a question
> of fact: if the GPS altitude shown in the IGC file is going to be
> accepted as the altitude of the flight, then why do we worry about
> pressure altitude? *I thought the whole idea of approving the
> 'position recorders' was to eliminate the need for the more expensive
> units that include a calibrated pressure sensor.
>
> A couple of posts after this, makes a statement that we will still
> need pressure altitude, since that is what is in Sporting Code 3.
> Isn't the new Sporting Code going to be re-written to eliminate the
> pressure altitude requirement.

The Sporting Code currently in effect through September 30, 2012 still
requires that pressure altitude evidence be provided along with GPS-
derived position data for Silver and Gold badges. If a badge flight
is to be flown using a local NAC approved "position recorder" which
does not record pressure altitude, then a barograph must also be
carried, and both the GPS flight data and the barograph trace must be
submitted for any badge legs. As of October 1, 2012, IGC flight data
from an approved position recorder containing GPS position data and
GPS altitude will be all that is required for these badge legs, no
more barograph. Again, due to concerns that during a normal summer
soaring day a gain of height measured by pressure altitude requires
climbing to a higher actual elevation, than the (more accurate) GPS
altitude measurement, an extra margin was added in an effort to
equalize things. So, as of October 1, a climb to 1100M (as measured
by GPS) will suffice for claiming Silver altitude using a GPS-only
position recorder, no need to worry about pressure altitude. 1000M
(as measured by pressure altitude) will continue to be acceptable when
using an approved flight recorder, a position recorder which records
pressure altitude, or a position record and barograph. I know this is
a bit confusing, but believe me, getting Silver and Gold badges will
be easier and cheaper from October on...

Marc

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks, Guys. For reasons I don't need to discuss here, I was out of the
sport for nine years. A lot changed during that time and I'm still catching
up...


"Marc" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 10, 10:52 am, fredblair > wrote:
> My question had nothing to do with 'cheating'. I am an Instructor and
> I will be responsible for teaching members how to properly use these
> new devices to obtain their badges. My question was just a question
> of fact: if the GPS altitude shown in the IGC file is going to be
> accepted as the altitude of the flight, then why do we worry about
> pressure altitude? I thought the whole idea of approving the
> 'position recorders' was to eliminate the need for the more expensive
> units that include a calibrated pressure sensor.
>
> A couple of posts after this, makes a statement that we will still
> need pressure altitude, since that is what is in Sporting Code 3.
> Isn't the new Sporting Code going to be re-written to eliminate the
> pressure altitude requirement.

The Sporting Code currently in effect through September 30, 2012 still
requires that pressure altitude evidence be provided along with GPS-
derived position data for Silver and Gold badges. If a badge flight
is to be flown using a local NAC approved "position recorder" which
does not record pressure altitude, then a barograph must also be
carried, and both the GPS flight data and the barograph trace must be
submitted for any badge legs. As of October 1, 2012, IGC flight data
from an approved position recorder containing GPS position data and
GPS altitude will be all that is required for these badge legs, no
more barograph. Again, due to concerns that during a normal summer
soaring day a gain of height measured by pressure altitude requires
climbing to a higher actual elevation, than the (more accurate) GPS
altitude measurement, an extra margin was added in an effort to
equalize things. So, as of October 1, a climb to 1100M (as measured
by GPS) will suffice for claiming Silver altitude using a GPS-only
position recorder, no need to worry about pressure altitude. 1000M
(as measured by pressure altitude) will continue to be acceptable when
using an approved flight recorder, a position recorder which records
pressure altitude, or a position record and barograph. I know this is
a bit confusing, but believe me, getting Silver and Gold badges will
be easier and cheaper from October on...

Marc

[Cats]

I decided to see how much a FlyWithCE would cost in the UK, and the UK
supplier (according to the FlyWithCE website) doesn't list the new
DR300 on their website. :(