Hmmm...???

[EDR]

************************************************** **********************
** Report created 11/3/2003 Record 6
**
************************************************** **********************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 5535Q
Make/Model: MO20
Description: MO-20
Date: 10/30/2003
Time: 2150
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: ANDERSON
State: SC Country: US
DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF ROLL, LANDING GEAR WAS INADVERTENTLY
WAS RAISED, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, ANDERSON, SC
INJURY DATA
Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: AND 302156Z 00000KT CLR 23/09 A3023OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown
Phase: Take-off
Operation: General Aviation
Departed: ANDERSON, SC
Dep Date:
Dep. Time:
Destination: COLUMBIA, SC
Flt Plan: NONE
Wx Briefing: N
Last Radio Cont: UNK
Last Clearance: UNK
FAA FSDO: COLUMBIA, SC (SO13)
Entry date: 10/31/2003

Sounds like one of those "power up, gear up, brakes off" takeoffs.

[C J Campbell]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...

| DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF ROLL, LANDING GEAR WAS INADVERTENTLY
| WAS RAISED, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, ANDERSON, SC

That probably happens far more often than it gets reported.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
EDR > wrote:
>
>DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF ROLL, LANDING GEAR WAS INADVERTENTLY
>WAS RAISED, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, ANDERSON, SC
>
>Sounds like one of those "power up, gear up, brakes off" takeoffs.

More likely the gear selector was up and as soon as the weight came
off the squat switch it retracted. I always touch the gear selector
and confirm it's down before I turn on the master.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Big John]

C.J.

Some (most) military birds have what is called a 'SQUAT' switch. It is
a switch on a main gear oelo that is activated after bird is airborne
and strut extends. Is suppossed to prevent one from pulling gear on
ground :o(

There was a override lever/switch next to the gear handle in cockpit
that overrode the "Squat' switch and let the Pilot retract the gear in
an emergency (like running off the end of R/W into rough ground, etc.)

Now comes the good part.

There were always some 'hot rocks' that wuuld put the gear handle in
the retract postion as they started their T/O run. As they rotated and
became light on the gear (and oelo extended to activate the 'squat'
switch) the gear would retract out from under the bird giving what we
called an "Air Show" appearance on take off.

Takes all kinds I guess.

Could the Mooney driver have been trying to show off???

Big John


On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:34:26 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
>| DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF ROLL, LANDING GEAR WAS INADVERTENTLY
>| WAS RAISED, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, ANDERSON, SC
>
>That probably happens far more often than it gets reported.
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Big John wrote:
>
> Could the Mooney driver have been trying to show off???

That was my first thought. Rod Machado tells the story of a pilot that came to
him for a BFR. He did his runup and hit the gear up switch. That was his normal
procedure. Machado says "You won't find *my* name in his logbook."

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Ron Natalie]

"Big John" > wrote in message ...

> Some (most) military birds have what is called a 'SQUAT' switch. It is
> a switch on a main gear oelo that is activated after bird is airborne
> and strut extends. Is suppossed to prevent one from pulling gear on
> ground :o(

Some. Those that use electrics to bring up the gear can do so. Some
the gear handle is just a hydraulic control. No squat switch because there
isn't any electrics involved in moving the gear.

The Navion (L-17) works that way too. It's not usually the take-off roll.
The common mistake is having the handle in the UP position when cranking
the engine. It only takes the pressure from the starter turing the engine to start the nose
wheel up (and the nose down).

[Michael]

Big John > wrote
> Some (most) military birds have what is called a 'SQUAT' switch.

It's the norm for civil retracts as well, with the exception of those
few older ones where the gear is cranked up and down manually.

> There was a override lever/switch next to the gear handle in cockpit
> that overrode the "Squat' switch and let the Pilot retract the gear in
> an emergency (like running off the end of R/W into rough ground, etc.)

Or, in a twin, engine failure and squat switch failure (in the
squatting position) at the same time. Ugly if it happens - can't
climb on one with the gear down, can't get the gear up. FWIW, I own a
twin like that - squat switch with no override. FAA won't let me
install an override (major alteration, won't field approve it, costs
tens of thousands to get an STC) but they did sign off on an indicator
that tells me what the squat switch is doing. But I digress.

> There were always some 'hot rocks' that wuuld put the gear handle in
> the retract postion as they started their T/O run. As they rotated and
> became light on the gear (and oelo extended to activate the 'squat'
> switch) the gear would retract out from under the bird giving what we
> called an "Air Show" appearance on take off.

Yeah, we have them in civil aviation too.

> Could the Mooney driver have been trying to show off???

Maybe. Here's the other problem. The maintenance on the gear tends
to be a lot better in the military than it is in GA - Uncle Sam is
paying for everything, and it's done by the book. Not too long ago a
flight school that shall remain nameless had an incident. Prop strike
on takeoff. Everyone claims the pilot prematurely retracted the gear.
Maybe so - but the one thing I know for certain is this - I looked
very carefully in the wheel wells of that airplane just a few months
ago, when they had problems getting a green light on the gear. The
squat and limit switches were a bad joke - some of them were held in
place with little more than good intentions. Pilot error or lousy
maintenance? Don't know.

I do know that several weeks later, they had a nose gear collapse on
another retract. Pilot saw the nose dropping on landing and went
around (and got the prop tips - dumb move, lucky they stayed in
place). I saw his second approach and landing. It was perfect -
soft, on the mains, nosegear held off as long as possible. The mains
were solidly down and locked, but the nosegear collapsed. The
mechanic now claims there's no problem with the gear.

I do know that the last time I let someone besides myself (a certified
mechanic, and a supposed expert on my plane no less) work on my gear,
I had a strut collapse on landing just a few flights later. He did a
hell of a job trying to convince me that it was a hard landing, and
almost had me believing it - but then I got to work, and saw that the
snap ring was flopping around loose around the strut - with no damage
to the groove or the snap ring. All became clear when I replaced the
seals and started to reassemble - the snap ring would look like it was
seated, and would seem to hold, but in fact was not in the groove.
Unless you knew what you were looking for or were suspicious, there
was no reason to believe it wasn't seated. I pushed it further,
seated it, and haven't had a problem since.

I have quite a few friends who have had gear problems, and my
experience is that it was more often mechanical screwup (up to and
including failure to replace a 20+ year old high pressure hydraulic
hose at annual after being specifically instructed to do so by the
owner) than pilot error.

Michael

[lance smith]

I saw Homer Simpson do this a couple of days ago. He got free tickets
for the whole family to keep his mouth shut about it. (the episode
where Marge has a flying phobia)

-lance smith



EDR > wrote in message >...
> ** Report created 11/3/2003 Record 6
> State: SC Country: US
> DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF ROLL, LANDING GEAR WAS INADVERTENTLY
> WAS RAISED, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, ANDERSON, SC
[snip]
> Sounds like one of those "power up, gear up, brakes off" takeoffs.

[C J Campbell]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
|
| Some (most) military birds have what is called a 'SQUAT' switch. It is
| a switch on a main gear oelo that is activated after bird is airborne
| and strut extends. Is suppossed to prevent one from pulling gear on
| ground :o(
|

Most civilian retracts have it, too. What happens, though, is that pilots
start their ground roll for takeoff and generate enough lift to take the
pressure off the squat switch, but not enough lift to actually take off. Or
they raise the gear before climbing out of ground effect and settle back
down on the runway gear up.

I have seen it happen several times in training.

[Big John]

Ben

My Mooney had a big handle in the cockpit. Pulling the gear was like
changing the switch on the RR to get a train on the other track:o)
Never unlocked it from instrument panel until I was airborne and did
the Mooney 'dip' to unload the gear so it didn't take any effort to
retract.

Looked a long time before I found a bird with a manual gear and all
the other goodies I wanted on it. I just never had a good feeling
about electric gear on a GA aircraft.

Big John

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:24:25 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

>In article >,
>EDR > wrote:
>>
>>DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF ROLL, LANDING GEAR WAS INADVERTENTLY
>>WAS RAISED, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, ANDERSON, SC
>>
>>Sounds like one of those "power up, gear up, brakes off" takeoffs.
>
>More likely the gear selector was up and as soon as the weight came
>off the squat switch it retracted. I always touch the gear selector
>and confirm it's down before I turn on the master.