FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE

[Larry Dighera]

From AvWeb:

FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE
A year after promising them, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey will
announce that real-time graphical depictions of current TFRs will be
available on the FAA Web site starting today.
http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp

[COUGARNFW]

Another case where avweb did not check "facts" as promulgated by the FAA.

When I accessed the site the avweb recommended, it was three days
old......supposed to be updated every fifteen minutes....right.

And the hot link with the message in this string shows up as nothing but
useless data.

Yea FAA.

N.

[karl gruber]

******FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE******


No. They didn't.

The Bremerton TFR is STILL mapped incorrectly. It seems inconcievable that
the FAA map makers can't select a point from LAT/LON and draw a circle
around it. Last time they had it 1/2 mile NW. Now it's about 1/4 mile W.

At least they are getting closer.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[Larry Dighera]

On 05 Nov 2003 02:47:10 GMT, (COUGARNFW) wrote in
Message-Id: >:

>Another case where avweb did not check "facts" as promulgated by the FAA.

Perhaps so.

>When I accessed the site the avweb recommended, it was three days
>old......supposed to be updated every fifteen minutes....right.

It now says:
WED, 5 NOV 2003 3:49 GMT.

>And the hot link with the message in this string shows up as nothing but
>useless data.

I'm having difficulty parsing that sentence.

I found one California TRF link that would not display the TFR data
due to a Java error, and notified the webmaster. I haven't used the
graphical TFR web site enough to form an opinion, but the resolution
of the sectional overlays isn't what you'd expect.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:03:57 -0800, "karl gruber"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>******FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE******
>
>
>No. They didn't.
>
>The Bremerton TFR is STILL mapped incorrectly. It seems inconcievable that
>the FAA map makers can't select a point from LAT/LON and draw a circle
>around it. Last time they had it 1/2 mile NW. Now it's about 1/4 mile W.
>
>At least they are getting closer.

Send e-mail to: http://www.broaddaylight.com/

Tell them which link your error report references, and the changes you
feel should be made to correct the issue.

That's what I did.

[Teacherjh]

>>
When I accessed the site the avweb recommended, it was three days
old.
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

>>
When I accessed the site the avweb recommended, it was three days
old.
<<

It's current for me (but no graphics yet). In some cases you need to force
your browser to fetch the newest version of the page. Your browser caches old
pages, your server caches old pages, and there are other caches everywhere down
the line. This makes (usuallky static) web sites show up faster, but plays
havoc with dynamic ones.

To force a server refresh in IE, hold the CONTROL key down while you click the
reload icon. Try similar things in Netscape (or read the directions. :) The
level of caching can be set as a default.

AOL is notorious for serving cached pages. It's not a bad thing, but it's
something you should be aware of.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

>> still no graphics

You have to click on the name of the TFR to see the graphic - not obvious since
the webmaster pulled a trick to make the names not show up as default links.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[BTIZ]

all parts of the web appear to be working correctly for me.. 2109 Local
Pacific time

poor renditions of the graphics can be made larger by clicking on the
graphic..

who gets a 3nm radius 3000ft AGL VIP TFR at Pierre SD this week. FDC notam
3/0633 1130 local on the third until 1420 local on the 6th...


"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> From AvWeb:
>
> FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE
> A year after promising them, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey will
> announce that real-time graphical depictions of current TFRs will be
> available on the FAA Web site starting today.
> http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:15:13 -0800, "BTIZ" >
wrote in Message-Id: <AH%pb.4025$Zb7.3878@fed1read01>:

>poor renditions of the graphics can be made larger by clicking on the
>graphic..

The graphics seem to get bigger, which helps, but not really better
quality resolution; they're fuzzy and indistinct in my opinion. But
if they accurately depict the TFR in relation to the topography, it
will save plotting them out manually from the NOTAM description.

[Cub Driver]

>To force a server refresh in IE, hold the CONTROL key down while you click the
>reload icon.

Thanks for the pointer. For touch typists, note that refresh in IE can
be done with the F5 key. Presumably Ctrl+F5 would have the same
result.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:
>
> I haven't used the graphical TFR web site enough to
> form an opinion, but the resolution of the sectional
> overlays isn't what you'd expect.
>
It is, if you recall your PP knowledge test... 8-)

Neil

[Teacherjh]

>>
For touch typists, note that refresh in IE can
be done with the F5 key. Presumably Ctrl+F5 would have the same
result.
<<

There's a difference between refresh and ctrl=refresh. Refresh gets a new
version onto your computer from the server, ctrl-refresh forces the server to
get a new version from the source.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Kevin McCue]

Of course its fuzzy...You didn't expect a clear answer from the FAA, did
you?

--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)




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[karl gruber]

*****Send e-mail to: http://www.broaddaylight.com/******

That is not an email address and it links to some strange web site.


Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:36:00 -0800, "karl gruber"
> wrote:

>*****Send e-mail to: http://www.broaddaylight.com/******
>
>That is not an email address and it links to some strange web site.

You're right; that's not an e-mail address.

In fact, if you look at the Contact Us web page
<http://www2.faa.gov/utilities/contactus.cfm>, you'll see a link under
"E-mail" labeled: "Comments or Questions about the FAA web site."
Clicking that link takes you to the Frequently Asked Questions page,
which does not contain any e-mail addresses.

I find the lack of an e-mail address to which corrections to the FAA
TFR web site can be submitted, to border on subterfuge. Here is a
company, Broad Daylight, who are in the business of providing
web-based solutions, that fails to provide an e-mail address to
contact them about anomalies that appear in their work. Absurd and
arrogant IMO.

It would seem that the FAA has contracted with Broad Daylight, an
e-service software developer specializing in solutions for customer
and employee self-service, to produce/manage the TFR web site.
Further sleuthing reveals that Broad Daylight has been acquired by
Primus, who provide software solutions for assisted service and
Web-based self-service. Primus provides this e-mail address
for Web Inquires.

Unfortunately, I'm not where I can see to whom I addressed my e-mail
message, but likely a note addressed to would
reach the appropriate person.

Incidently, I have found that clicking the graphic under the "Zoom"
column on the <http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp> page produces a
map that displays a zoomed-out view of the locations of the TFRs in
any particular region.
<http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/tfrmap.jsp?action=layers&ims_service=tfr_conus&minx=-2260697.32978264&maxx=-1532616.39378124&miny=-669226.709384332&maxy=-155287.22514805&llatlong=on&lsua=on&lcity=on&lmsa=on&lroad=on&lap=on&lcenters=on>
Checking all the "Map Layer" boxes, and updating the map reveals not
only the location of the TFRs, but all the SUA too. There sure is a
lot of it. But, the "Zoom In/Out" and "Get Info" buttons don't seem
to do anything yet.

The FAAs TFR web site still needs work. Perhaps the web master will
put his e-mail address on the site when it is further developed. As
it is, the lack of an e-mail address under the "E-mail" heading
appears more than just a little duplicitous.

[lance smith]

The web page definitely looks more snazzier than the DUATS webpage,
but content-wise DUATS wins 1.75 hands down. Zoom in, out, scroll...
see other restrictions nearby and there is also a nice table layout
(with altitude!) at the bottom. True you can dig through the FAA site
and find similar features, but not all on one web page. Score one more
for the private sector.

-lance smith



Larry Dighera > wrote in message >...
> From AvWeb:
>
> FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE
> A year after promising them, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey will
> announce that real-time graphical depictions of current TFRs will be
> available on the FAA Web site starting today.
> http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp

[Larry Dighera]

On 7 Nov 2003 09:10:41 -0800, (lance smith)
wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>content-wise DUATS wins 1.75 hands down

Have you got a link to the DUATS page you mention?

[lance smith]

Hi Larry,

You can find it at www.duats.com. It's free for all pilots
(registration required) and once you login G-TFR's will be second item
on the page.

-lance smith


Larry Dighera > wrote in message >...
> On 7 Nov 2003 09:10:41 -0800, (lance smith)
> wrote in Message-Id:
> >:
>
> >content-wise DUATS wins 1.75 hands down
>
> Have you got a link to the DUATS page you mention?

[Larry Dighera]

On 7 Nov 2003 17:27:48 -0800, (lance smith)
wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>You can find it at www.duats.com. It's free for all pilots
>(registration required) and once you login G-TFR's will be second item
>on the page.

The DUATS TFR system seems completely adequate. Thanks for the
information.

So now the FAA is funding 2 graphical TFR systems. It would be
interesting to know if the data presented by each agree. Perhaps they
have adaptational functionality planned for the new one.

[karl gruber]

*****It would be interesting to know if the data presented by each agree.
****


They don't

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:42:07 -0800, "karl gruber"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>*****It would be interesting to know if the data presented by each agree.
>****
>
>
>They don't
>

Are you able to provide two URLs to the same TFR that don't agree?

[karl gruber]

After I complained to my two congressmen(women), they simply removed the
original Bremerton TFR chart.

The new one, what, a week old, is still off. Way off.

Leave it to a government employee to not be able to place a LAT/LON on a map
and draw a circle around it.

http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/tfrmap.jsp?reset=yes&action=tfr&zTfr=3/6719


Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[Jon Carlson]

Uh... what is the "server" and what is the "source"? Also, how does it
request a refresh from the "source" differently than just from the
"server"? Is there an HTTP protocol for specifying which level of
cached information is being requested?

-Jon C.


"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> There's a difference between refresh and ctrl=refresh. Refresh gets
a new
> version onto your computer from the server, ctrl-refresh forces the
server to
> get a new version from the source.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 19:39:44 -0800, "karl gruber"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>After I complained to my two congressmen(women), they simply removed the
>original Bremerton TFR chart.
>
>The new one, what, a week old, is still off. Way off.
>
>Leave it to a government employee to not be able to place a LAT/LON on a map
>and draw a circle around it.
>
>http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/tfrmap.jsp?reset=yes&action=tfr&zTfr=3/6719
>

Here is the proper e-mail address for submitting error reports to the
FAA graphical TFR webmaster:
http://www.asu.faa.gov/consumer_email/message.cfm

[Teacherjh]

When a web page is created, it resides somewhere on a computer connected to the
internet. That's the source. When it is changed, that is the first place the
change shows up.

When you connect to the internet, your computer connects to another computer
that's already connected and will provide you internet services. That is your
server. For example, if you are on aol, then one of the aol.com computers is
your "server". (note - "your" server. Other people connected to the internet
may well have other servers)

When you request a web page, the request goes to the server. If the server has
never seen this page before, the server sends the request on down the line to
other computers connected to the internet (in a rational order) until it finds
the source, which (of course) has seen this page before. :) The source sends
a copy of the page up the line to your server, which then sends it to your
computer which puts it on your screen.

The next time you request that page, your computer may look in its own memory
(cache) to see if it still has the old copy. If it does (and it hasn't
"expired"), it will display the old copy rather than tie up the internet
requesting the page again and making you wait for it to be retransmitted.
Often this is what you want, but sometimes not. When you hit the "refresh"
button, your browser registers your dissatisfaction with its offering, and asks
the server for a fresh copy.

If the page is not requested often, that copy may also be stale, but the server
will give it to you anyway. Sometimes the server's copy is newer (for example,
if other people on the same server have requested the page after the server's
copy has "expired") and in that case you get the sort-of newer copy. But
sometimes that's not new enough either. So you can do a control-refresh (at
least in IE - it may be a different keystroke combination in other browsers),
which tells the server that you're not going to put up with any of this old
stuff, and to bloody well go to the source, just in case the source itself has
changed in the interim. You'll need to wait for the request to make its way
through the internet, and for all the bytes to wind their way back to your
machine.

Often this is not a big deal, but if everyone did this for static web pages, it
would provide no benefit (the page is after all the same) and would tie up too
much bandwidth. So, the user gets to choose how far to pursue this, depending
on how critical current data is.

Some pages are set up to "expire" sooner than others in cache, so that when a
request for this page comes in, it will go straight to the source. Others are
not, so that the source is left in peace (and doesn't have to pay for all the
bandwidth that would have been used sending identical copies all over the
place). This has a consequence for banner ads and web tracking too - if you
take the page from your cache or from the server, the source never knows it was
requested.

Nothing is simple with computers and the internet, and it's that way for a good
reason. I just wish companies would stop pretending it was simple, and just
explain things so that they could be understood (and used to best advantage).
After all, life isn't simple either, and people manage to live it. :)

Jose

====

Uh... what is the "server" and what is the "source"? Also, how does it
request a refresh from the "source" differently than just from the
"server"? Is there an HTTP protocol for specifying which level of
cached information is being requested?

-Jon C.


"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> There's a difference between refresh and ctrl=refresh. Refresh gets
a new
> version onto your computer from the server, ctrl-refresh forces the
server to
> get a new version from the source.

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Kyler Laird]

(Teacherjh) writes:

>When you connect to the internet, your computer connects to another computer
>that's already connected and will provide you internet services. That is your
>server.

I'd call that my ISP, gateway, router, ... but not "server".

>When you request a web page, the request goes to the server. If the server has
>never seen this page before, the server sends the request on down the line to
>other computers connected to the internet (in a rational order) until it finds
>the source, which (of course) has seen this page before.

What world are we in here? You're talking about a string of
(transparent) caching proxy servers? They communicate "in a rational
order"? So this is something like a SquidCache system?

There's very little that's truly "standard" about caching HTTP proxies.
Such broad generalizations make me cringe.

'course AOL is different. But AOL is not "the Internet".

--kyler

[Teacherjh]

>> I'd call that my ISP, gateway, router, ... but not "server".

If it has the files on it and delivers them to you, it's a server. IT may also
be a gateway and other stuff, but in broad strokes, "server" works fine.

>>
You're talking about a string of
(transparent) caching proxy servers?
They communicate "in a rational order"?
<<

Yes, close enough. Of course more goes on, but it's mainly irrelevant.

>>
There's very little that's truly "standard" about caching HTTP proxies.
Such broad generalizations make me cringe.
<<

This is true, but in the context of explaning "ctrl-refresh" in an aviation
newsgroup, broad generalizations like this are useful. We're primarily here to
discuss flying, not internet protocols; the context of the question was how to
ensure that you get the most current FAA TFR data when you go to the site.
Caching happens in many places, and it's usually a good thing. Sometimes you
need to override it; I just gave a quickie on how and why.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Jon Parmet]

Larry Dighera > wrote in message >...
> From AvWeb:
>
> FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE
> A year after promising them, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey will
> announce that real-time graphical depictions of current TFRs will be
> available on the FAA Web site starting today.
> http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp

Check this one out as well:

https://www.tfrfaa.naimes.faa.gov/TfrFAA/

[Larry Dighera]

On 12 Nov 2003 12:22:42 -0800, (Jon Parmet)
wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>Larry Dighera > wrote in message >...
>> From AvWeb:
>>
>> FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE
>> A year after promising them, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey will
>> announce that real-time graphical depictions of current TFRs will be
>> available on the FAA Web site starting today.
>> http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp
>
>Check this one out as well:
>
>https://www.tfrfaa.naimes.faa.gov/TfrFAA/

Thanks.

It looks good to me except that the circles are oval; the graphics are
stretched laterally. And what's the deal with the SSL?

So it appears that the FAA has at least three graphical TFR web sites
now if you include DUATS (FAA funded). What they lack in accuracy
they make up in quantity. :-)

[Jon Parmet]

Larry Dighera > wrote in message >...
> On 12 Nov 2003 12:22:42 -0800, (Jon Parmet)
> wrote in Message-Id:
> >:
>
> >Larry Dighera > wrote in message >...
> >> From AvWeb:
> >>
> >> FAA KEEPS GRAPHICAL TFR PROMISE
> >> A year after promising them, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey will
> >> announce that real-time graphical depictions of current TFRs will be
> >> available on the FAA Web site starting today.
> >> http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp
> >
> >Check this one out as well:
> >
> >https://www.tfrfaa.naimes.faa.gov/TfrFAA/
>
> Thanks.
>
> It looks good to me except that the circles are oval; the graphics are
> stretched laterally.

This functionality was only recently stood up and I'm pretty sure the
goal was "get the concept working first, then make it pretty." They're
using ESRI's SDE underneath to provide more than just graphics (i.e. a
full-on GIS). My first guess wrt the aspect ratio is that it's a web
site 'issue' ;)

> And what's the deal with the SSL?

NAIMES has connectivity to the NAS, and security has taken on a new
meaning since... 'nuff said.

> So it appears that the FAA has at least three graphical TFR web sites
> now if you include DUATS (FAA funded). What they lack in accuracy
> they make up in quantity. :-)

With all the data out there, the long pole is clearly one of managing
it. The NAIMES portal is an attempt to give you access to all that
quantity from one place. From
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cdm+register+group:rec.aviation.ifr&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.aviation.ifr&selm=f0701dba.0304251121.62847ca0%40posting.google .com&rnum=1

==========
1. https://register.naimes.nas.faa.gov

Once you're reigstered [sic], the portal can be found at:

2. https://cdm.naimes.atcscc.faa.gov
==========

If you head over to https://www.waasaps.naimes.faa.gov/Capstone/ ,
you'll notice the same front end for CAPSTONE as for the TFRs.

Regards,
Jon