ANOTHER airspace incursion in D.C.?

[Jay Honeck]

Over on the Cherokee Chat page people are talking about yet ANOTHER
incursion into the restricted airspace around D.C. by a Spam Can driver
today.

Anyone got any details on this?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:2YWrb.164308$HS4.1330633@attbi_s01...
> Over on the Cherokee Chat page people are talking about yet ANOTHER
> incursion into the restricted airspace around D.C. by a Spam Can driver
> today.
>
> Anyone got any details on this?

Not anything credible. It's hard to say from the news reports just exactly what
happened. Typical press loosey-goosey with the terminology. I suspect he
busted the FRZ, since ADIZ busts happen more frequently without making the
news. Nobody has coughed up any credible rumors about just exactly what
happened.

[Peter Gottlieb]

Some info on the AOPA site.


"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2YWrb.164308$HS4.1330633@attbi_s01...
> > Over on the Cherokee Chat page people are talking about yet ANOTHER
> > incursion into the restricted airspace around D.C. by a Spam Can driver
> > today.
> >
> > Anyone got any details on this?
>
> Not anything credible. It's hard to say from the news reports just
exactly what
> happened. Typical press loosey-goosey with the terminology. I suspect
he
> busted the FRZ, since ADIZ busts happen more frequently without making the
> news. Nobody has coughed up any credible rumors about just exactly what
> happened.
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Not anything credible.

Here's the poop from AOPA:
*********************************
Washington ADIZ incursion causes alert
AOPA reminds pilots of obligations, tools to avoid incursions
Nov. 10 - Air National Guard fighter pilots on Monday intercepted a general
aviation aircraft that had violated the no-fly zone at the heart of the
Baltimore-Washington Air Defense Identification Zone, determined that the
aircraft posed no threat, and escorted the pilot out.

"While we don't yet know why the aircraft strayed into the ADIZ, the system
worked as designed," said AOPA President Phil Boyer. "Air traffic
controllers identified a potential threat. The military responded with
appropriate force and appropriate restraint and, after determining that the
pilot posed no threat, escorted him out of the ADIZ and let him go on his
way."

What convinced the fighter pilots that it was an inadvertent incursion was
apparently that the GA pilot saw and complied with their intercept signals.
[The AOPA Air Safety Foundation has prepared an intercept procedures card
(requires Adobe Acrobat Reader).]

AOPA continues to remind pilots that it is their obligation to know about
and avoid all flight-restricted areas. And the association has been
extraordinarily proactive in providing pilots with the tools and information
they need to do so, including the new AOPA Real Time Flight Planner, which
provides up-to-minute graphical depictions of temporary flight restriction
(TFR) locations.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message t...
> Some info on the AOPA site.
>
Of course the AOPA touts their realtime TFR tracker. But this isn't even (anymore) a temporary
restriction. Of course can't convince NACO to chart the blasted thing. NACO's excuse: they
can't chart a temporary airspace. This is doubly wrong because in addition to not being temproary,
they've charted temporary airspace in the past. We had a special purple dot version of the DC
sectional and TAC chart back when we had the prelim rounds of the olympic soccer matches at
several venues in the area.

[Jay Honeck]

You've just got to wonder how long it will be until the Feds actually lock
up one of these idiots. I mean, c'mon -- I live in Iowa, some 800 miles
away, and even I am familiar with the existence of an ADIZ around D.C. What
the hell is wrong with these guys?

Their amateurish behavior is making all pilots look like fools. Sooner or
later the national security apparatus is going to take action -- and I can
almost guarantee it will be an action that none of us wants to see...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger Long]

They will soon. There is item on Avweb that the TSA Fed heads are pushing
for mandatory criminal sentencing for incursions.

--
Roger Long

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:Kr_rb.167477$Tr4.452146@attbi_s03...
> You've just got to wonder how long it will be until the Feds actually lock
> up one of these idiots. I mean, c'mon -- I live in Iowa, some 800 miles
> away, and even I am familiar with the existence of an ADIZ around D.C. What
> the hell is wrong with these guys?

They're probably from Iowa. Not all pilots are as well versed as most of us
who hang out here are. The Flight Circus Stations (with the possible exception
of Leesburg) are woefully stupid about the ADIZ as well. It took a while for
even Altoona (which is about 100 miles north of DC and frequently takes the
spill over calls for Leesburg) to understand what the ADIZ was.

> Their amateurish behavior is making all pilots look like fools. Sooner or
> later the national security apparatus is going to take action -- and I can
> almost guarantee it will be an action that none of us wants to see...

Actually, it's working more or less as planned. The ADIZ/FRZ can't keep anybody
out. The idea was to limit the traffic there to amounts that were manageable to
intercept.

[Ron Natalie]

"Roger Long" m> wrote in message
...
> They will soon. There is item on Avweb that the TSA Fed heads are pushing
> for mandatory criminal sentencing for incursions.
>
Violation of the FAR's is not a crime however (at least not federally). They're going
to need some legislation to back that up.

Actually, every violation is being pursued. It's even worse than the typical FAA
stance (typically, the FAA believes that no investigation is successful unless it
results in an enforcement action, the fact that the accused may be innocent is
deemed as a failure).

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:54:56 GMT, "Roger Long"
m> wrote in
Message-Id: >:

>There is item on Avweb that the TSA Fed heads are pushing
>for mandatory criminal sentencing for incursions.

How will that enhance security?

[Andrew Gideon]

Larry Dighera wrote:

>>There is item on Avweb that the TSA Fed heads are pushing
>>for mandatory criminal sentencing for incursions.
>
> How will that enhance security?

More work for TSA staffers.

You mean job security, right?

- Andrew

[Rosspilot]

> wrote> What
>> the hell is wrong with these guys?

Ron Natalie says<<>They're probably from Iowa>>

LOL . . .




www.Rosspilot.com

[John Clonts]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
t...
> > Some info on the AOPA site.
> >
> Of course the AOPA touts their realtime TFR tracker. But this isn't even
(anymore) a temporary
> restriction. Of course can't convince NACO to chart the blasted thing.
NACO's excuse: they
> can't chart a temporary airspace. This is doubly wrong because in
addition to not being temproary,
> they've charted temporary airspace in the past. We had a special purple
dot version of the DC
> sectional and TAC chart back when we had the prelim rounds of the olympic
soccer matches at
> several venues in the area.
>
>

Yes, and the Expanded P-49 TFR is charted on the San Antonio sectional...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Ben Smith]

> Anyone got any details on this?

N488RD is what I saw on TV yesterday. '66 M20E, looked pretty nice. Newer
paint scheme, 3 blade prop.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ben Smith wrote:
>
> N488RD is what I saw on TV yesterday. '66 M20E, looked pretty nice. Newer
> paint scheme, 3 blade prop.

Based in Jacksonville.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Jay Honeck]

> >>There is item on Avweb that the TSA Fed heads are pushing
> >>for mandatory criminal sentencing for incursions.
> >
> > How will that enhance security?

This issue isn't about security -- the concept of an ADIZ providing security
is complete crap.

But face it, ladies and gentlemen -- the ADIZ is there. We can all see it on
the map. It's not like a pop-up TFR, that comes and goes like the wind.

The Feds are going to lose patience with these incursions, bet on it. And
then we'll all be screwed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:8Scsb.172340$HS4.1397531@attbi_s01...

> But face it, ladies and gentlemen -- the ADIZ is there. We can all see it on
> the map.

What map is that, Jay? There is no published map with the ADIZ on it.

> It's not like a pop-up TFR, that comes and goes like the wind.

It came like the wind. The New York one disappeared with the wind (causing
some FAA employees in the NY area to think the DC one went away when we
went back to code yellow.

> The Feds are going to lose patience with these incursions, bet on it. And
> then we'll all be screwed.

We're already screwed Jay.

[Jay Honeck]

> What map is that, Jay? There is no published map with the ADIZ on it.

Here's three, to start with. Found 'em in about three clicks.

http://www.nafcflying.org/DCADIZ.htm

http://www.aeroplanner.com/notams/DCADIZ.cfm

http://www.fortmeadeflyingactivity.org/pifs/pif_03-02.html

> > The Feds are going to lose patience with these incursions, bet on it.
And
> > then we'll all be screwed.
>
> We're already screwed Jay.

Not me. But I will be, if doofuses like the Mooney driver keeps screwing
the pooch.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article <IOdsb.174151$Tr4.466973@attbi_s03>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> > What map is that, Jay? There is no published map with the ADIZ on it.
>
> Here's three, to start with. Found 'em in about three clicks.
>
> http://www.nafcflying.org/DCADIZ.htm
>
> http://www.aeroplanner.com/notams/DCADIZ.cfm
>
> http://www.fortmeadeflyingactivity.org/pifs/pif_03-02.html
>
> > > The Feds are going to lose patience with these incursions, bet on it.
> And
> > > then we'll all be screwed.
> >
> > We're already screwed Jay.

But it is nowhere to be found on an official, for navigational use,
government printed and distributed chart. That is the arguement. Charts
are printed every six months, why can it not be included?

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:IOdsb.174151$Tr4.466973@attbi_s03...
> > What map is that, Jay? There is no published map with the ADIZ on it.
>
> Here's three, to start with. Found 'em in about three clicks.

None of those are published.
None are provided by the FAA.
It's rediculous that the standard sectionals/TAC's do not depict this
airspace which they claim is so danged important to the security of
the country.

> > We're already screwed Jay.
>
> Not me. But I will be, if doofuses like the Mooney driver keeps screwing
> the pooch.

Try coming to DC.

[Jay Honeck]

> > The Feds are going to lose patience with these incursions, bet on it.
And
> > then we'll all be screwed.
> and you can do nothing about it?
>
> well: vote!

I do -- every election, no matter how small.

However, you seem to have misinterpreted my attitude, Martin -- I'm not
blaming the government on this one. Although I think the D.C. ADIZ is
stupid, I'm in FAVOR of prosecuting the idiots who bust it. I'd rather see
the Feds make a harsh example of one of these guys, instead of waiting for
them to try the much-feared nation-wide "blanket" solution.

Personally, I think a LOT of controlled airspace is stupid, starting with
Class D, non-radar-controlled airspace -- but that doesn't mean I'm in favor
of pilots arbitrarily busting through it, against published procedures.
Although Ron has a valid point about the ADIZ not being on the sectionals,
as long as the law is on the books pilots have to be smart enough to read
it.

Again, my point is this: If these few dolts don't figure it out -- soon --
the FAA may be forced to come up with a "solution". This is something none
of us wants.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>
> #m
> --
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:yVMsb.193242$e01.708575@attbi_s02...

> However, you seem to have misinterpreted my attitude, Martin -- I'm not
> blaming the government on this one. Although I think the D.C. ADIZ is
> stupid, I'm in FAVOR of prosecuting the idiots who bust it. I'd rather see
> the Feds make a harsh example of one of these guys, instead of waiting for
> them to try the much-feared nation-wide "blanket" solution.

They are making an example of them, they just have not been holding the
executions in public. They have also been going against leaseback owners
whose planes are involved. Your ignorance of what is happening accross
the country is overwhelming.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Ron
Natalie" > wrote:

> They are making an example of them, they just have not been holding the
> executions in public. They have also been going against leaseback owners
> whose planes are involved. Your ignorance of what is happening accross
> the country is overwhelming.

If "they" are not doing public executions, than why bust someone's
chops for being "ignorant"? We should all know about the things
that aren't made public knowledge?

--
Bob Noel

[Ron Natalie]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message ...
> In article >, "Ron
> Natalie" > wrote:
>
> > They are making an example of them, they just have not been holding the
> > executions in public. They have also been going against leaseback owners
> > whose planes are involved. Your ignorance of what is happening accross
> > the country is overwhelming.
>
> If "they" are not doing public executions, than why bust someone's
> chops for being "ignorant"? We should all know about the things
> that aren't made public knowledge?

Why is Jay busting pilots chops for violoating pathetically poorly announced
restrictions then? He was the one who came here bitching about the incursions.
This whole thing is happening under the table and via
the NOTAM system which is pathetically the most inane way of dissenminating
information. It is vastly overlooked by pilots and FSS professionals. ATC hasn't
a clue either. I've had IFR's cleared into the FRZ which resulted in pilot violations
as well.

The ADIZ should be on the charts.
The NOTAM plain text should be in the AF/D.
The remarks section of every airport inside the ADIZ/FRZ should reference
the appropriate NOTAM.

Crikely, these things are printed on short enough cycles that THE standard, most
used preplanning publications contain them.

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Again, my point is this: If these few dolts don't figure it out -- soon --
> the FAA may be forced to come up with a "solution". This is something none
> of us wants.

The problem is that the whole system consists of human beings. People ARE
going to make mistakes. That's just the way it is. And of course, some
people are just stupid. But we're never gonna stop the occasional
incursion. There are Class B incursions every day, all over the country,
and know one says anything. I understand this is more critical, but as I
said, they're human beings and they're going to make mistakes. No one
ever hears about the periodic mistakes that NORAD or the air traffic
controllers are making... incorrectly identifying aircraft as violating
the airspace.

I think, atleast to some extent, you're being so hardlined because it
isn't presently effecting you. If tomorrow, they plopped an ADIZ on top
of Iowa City, you'd be ****ed, and you'd also probably be more
understanding.

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message ...
>. No one
> ever hears about the periodic mistakes that NORAD or the air traffic
> controllers are making... incorrectly identifying aircraft as violating
> the airspace.

You mean like the interception we had here when the pilot "almost entered" the
ADIZ. There's a special regulatory word for "almost entered," it's called remaining
clear.

[Jay Masino]

Ron Natalie > wrote:
> You mean like the interception we had here when the pilot "almost
> entered" the ADIZ. There's a special regulatory word for "almost
> entered," it's called remaining clear.

:-) yea

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> The ADIZ should be on the charts.

The FAA seems to think that it is. From today's AvWeb:

[...] it has been violated more than 600 times. "Frankly, we're a bit
frustrated that pilots are still violating it, and we don't know why,"
the FAA's William Shumann told AVweb yesterday. "It's on the charts,
it's on our Web site."

Conversely, the comment "and we don't know why" is funny. Maybe it has
something to do with the fact that the FAA thinks the ADIZ is charted, even
though it's not. I could see how they would get confused.

Pete

[Jake Brodsky]

Ron, I couldn't agree more, the presentation and updating of the
ADIZ/FRZ/TFR data is a dangerous mess. Hell, I thought poorly of the
NOTAM system long before 9/11. Since then, it's been overloaded to
the point where I'm sure many don't read the damned NOTAMS because
it's too confusing.

However, in fairness to Jay, he's right too. If someone with a real
pilot certificate hasn't figured out by now that there is a FRZ
somewhere around Washington DC, and that person can't figure out that
they're headed right toward the middle of the city, then I don't
believe they should be behind the controls of an aircraft.

We've all had times when we weren't sure of our actual position
(mostly before GPS became common), but gosh, it's hard to miss a city.
And even if one had no idea of position within 10 miles of accuracy
(hard to imagine, but possible) one would at least know which headings
were more likely to in to danger than others.

We pilots are mere mortals. The NOTAM system is a relic of the
teletype days. Hell, all the FAA has to do is build something
resembling a few moderated news servers and they'd have a vast
improvement over what we're using now. Then allow for intelligent
clients to search the news database for relevant information by
geographical significance, and it would satisfy at least 90% of most
of the gripes we have today.

But, of course, knowing those cheerfully silly FAA planners, it'll
become a monster project with all sorts of overhead and maintenance,
it'll be designed for the next five decades of flight, and it'll cost
so much that it'll fall on the floor as too impractical.

Sigh.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

[Jay Honeck]

> Why is Jay busting pilots chops for violoating pathetically poorly
announced
> restrictions then? He was the one who came here bitching about the
incursions.

Because, according to the FAA, it's happened over 600 times now. Maybe we
can explain away the ignorance of the first 10. Hell, I'll even give you
the first 100.

But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

No wonder the general public thinks we're a bunch of air-headed rich boys.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article <XXSsb.191779$HS4.1608527@attbi_s01>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Why is Jay busting pilots chops for violoating pathetically poorly
>announced
>> restrictions then? He was the one who came here bitching about the
>incursions.
>
>Because, according to the FAA, it's happened over 600 times now. Maybe we
>can explain away the ignorance of the first 10. Hell, I'll even give you
>the first 100.
>
>But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.
>
>No wonder the general public thinks we're a bunch of air-headed rich boys.

How maybe times do people wonder into class B at say SFO? I'm actually
asking, I don't know. Don't forget that there are a lot of ways to
violate the ADIZ. Yeah it's poor but there have been at least 3
commerical flights that violated the the whitehouse airspace too (off the
top of my head).
Also 600 out of how many flights? 600/600 is pretty bad,
600/100,000,000,000 is pretty low (both are exterme examples ^_^).

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:XXSsb.191779$HS4.1608527@attbi_s01...

> But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

It's not the same pilot 600 times. There's over 1000 times that many pilots.
And oviously their enforcement actions and public education isn't helping.

If there were only a couple of dozen violations that might be one thing, but the
fact that there are so many is indication that things are not working. Using an
irregularly shaped, non charted airspace is a real bone head. At least the FRZ
followed existing charted lines, even if one of them was the isagonic line.

[Ron Natalie]

"'Vejita' S. Cousin" > wrote in message ...

>
> How maybe times do people wonder into class B at say SFO? I'm actually
> asking, I don't know. Don't forget that there are a lot of ways to
> violate the ADIZ. Yeah it's poor but there have been at least 3
> commerical flights that violated the the whitehouse airspace too (off the
> top of my head).
> Also 600 out of how many flights? 600/600 is pretty bad,
> 600/100,000,000,000 is pretty low (both are exterme examples ^_^).

Further, some of the "incursions" were aircraft that were legitmately inside
the airspace but tripped over a technical violation. ATC told some heading
for the edge of the airspace to "squawk VFR have a nice day" which is fine
if it was just ATC watching, but the airborne big brother will catch anybody
with a primary only return or squawking 1200. Another one was an aircraft
with a failed transponder.

[Teacherjh]

>> but gosh, it's hard to miss a city.

Actually, it's quite rural around the boundaries of the DC ADIZ.

>> But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale

Well, something's broke. Maybe it's not the pilots? Last time I was in the DC
area ATC was talking about scrambling jets becuase a pilot was confused about
which code he was supposed to use (they gave him two - one at the start of the
flight for the ADIZ and one when he was approaching it)

I'd like to know how many terrorists were stopped by these intercepts.

It's real easy to sit on a high horse. But you make mistakes too. (and by
"you" I mean every reader here, including me) And the mistake you're most
likely to make next is the one you don't think you'll ever make because you
know better.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

If you haven't flown through the area, you are not competent to comment on it.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Jay Honeck]

> > But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.
>
> If you haven't flown through the area, you are not competent to comment on
it.

Why?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jake Brodsky]

On 14 Nov 2003 00:21:07 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:

>>> but gosh, it's hard to miss a city.
>
>Actually, it's quite rural around the boundaries of the DC ADIZ.

Don't tell that to me. I live in this "rural" area under the edge of
the ADIZ and it's getting less so every day. Anyway, the boundaries
of the ADIZ are one thing, the boundaries of the FRZ within the ADIZ
are another.

I didn't write this next quote.
>>> But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale
>
>Well, something's broke. Maybe it's not the pilots? Last time I was in the DC
>area ATC was talking about scrambling jets becuase a pilot was confused about
>which code he was supposed to use (they gave him two - one at the start of the
>flight for the ADIZ and one when he was approaching it)

What's broken is the assumption that ATC is staffed and equipped well
enough to handle the ADIZ and FRZ rules *reliably*. For that matter,
civil aviation in general isn't well equipped to handle this ignorant
bit of policy.

>I'd like to know how many terrorists were stopped by these intercepts.

It's a Pink Elephant defense: Seen any Pink Elephants? No? Then it
must be working.

>It's real easy to sit on a high horse. But you make mistakes too. (and by
>"you" I mean every reader here, including me) And the mistake you're most
>likely to make next is the one you don't think you'll ever make because you
>know better.

As with anything, it's not the making of mistakes, it's the magnitude
of the mistake and how far you go before it is discovered. I won't
deny making mistakes. I've filed my share of ASRS reports. The
difference is that I am always looking for ways to cross check my
decisions. Hopefully, I won't go too far before I discover my
mistakes.

Folks, despite our best wishes, we can't go flying the way the we did
in the last century. Temporary restrictions are popping up all over
the place. Anyone who flies a cross country trip without previously
checking up on these things is just asking for trouble. This is a
mistake on par with not preflighting an aircraft before the first
flight of the day. To me, this is like forgetting to get dressed in
the morning before walking outdoors.

Anyway, for those of you who are not based anywhere near the DC ADIZ
here is my recommendation:

File IFR.

And if you don't have the rating, I strongly recommend you get one
before flying here. I say this because even if you're flying VFR in
the ADIZ, Potomac Approach doesn't care. You're still practically on
an IFR flight plan anyway, with none of the privileges or services an
IFR flight receives. Flying VFR, and navigating by landmarks in
particular, is just asking for trouble --unless you're based here and
are already very familiar with the area.

Sorry folks, that's the way it is. If you don't like it, please
complain to your congress critters. I have. I got a letter from
Senator Mikulski and a staggeringly ignorant form letter from Admiral
Loy. We aren't making enough noise about this issue. Until we do,
this aviation paranoia will get worse, not better.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:12:48 -0500, Jake Brodsky >
wrote:

>But, of course, knowing those cheerfully silly FAA planners, it'll
>become a monster project with all sorts of overhead and maintenance,
>it'll be designed for the next five decades of flight, and it'll cost
>so much that it'll fall on the floor as too impractical.

Worse than that are the four FAA funded graphical TFR web sites:
http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/tfrmap.jsp?reset=yes&action=tfr&zTfr=3/6719
https://www.tfrfaa.naimes.faa.gov/TfrFAA/
http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp
www.duats.com

It's the old "man with two watches" conundrum; when the graphical data
one site conflicts with that on another, the utility of the graphical
representation is lost, and the pilot is set up for a fall.

[Teacherjh]

>>
Anyway, for those of you who are not based anywhere near the DC ADIZ
here is my recommendation:

File IFR.

<<

Yeah, that's the "safe" way. But having done it VFR (to Gaithersberg) I can
say VFR is not a big deal. Just be sure to get your squawk code before
entering. If you're on flight following, that makes it easier. If you popped
up (like from 1500 feet), do so eariler rather than later, to give them time to
screw up and fix it again.

>>
As with anything, it's not the making of mistakes, it's the magnitude
of the mistake and how far you go before it is discovered.
<<

Yes. But in this case, the "magnitude" of the mistake is artificially inflated
by the stupid system. It still falls on the pilot, but let there be no mistake
here - if the rules said that pilots had to wiggle their wings three times and
toss a carrot out the window before gaining admittance to the zone, not doing
so would be an "equally" big mistake. For the same inane reason.

>>
This is a
mistake on par with not preflighting an aircraft before the first
flight of the day. To me, this is like forgetting to get dressed in
the morning before walking outdoors.
<<

Not preflighting can get you killed due to the laws of physics. Not getting
dressed (at least on a nice day) has no consequences other than the arbitrary
and artificial ones society imposes. Ditto this %@*$ TFR situation.

There is a difference.

>> What's broken is the assumption that ATC is staffed...

What's broken is the assumption that this really DOES stop pink elephants.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Ron Natalie]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message ...

> File IFR.

IFR won't protect you from the FRZ by the way.

[Jake Brodsky]

On 14 Nov 2003 15:23:28 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:

>>> What's broken is the assumption that ATC is staffed...
>
>What's broken is the assumption that this really DOES stop pink elephants.

The assumption that there in fact ARE Pink Elephants (ie. Suicide
Terrorists flying GA aircraft) is what's wrong here. We've never seen
one. They would seem to be highly improbable creatures.

The defense against these raging Pink Elephants of which very little
is known with confidence, not even their supposedly pink color, is
pointless. The notion that by quietly hiding secret post-it notes
around the city, telling everyone, including Pink Elephants, to stay
away is worse. Meanwhile, we're supposed to let Gray Elephants roam
freely, while inspecting their riders's shoes to make sure there is
nothing pink about the shoes.

(In other words, we aren't even certain if the motive is terrorism,
and that by posting a "temporary" ADIZ around DC which we don't bother
charting, these "Pink Elephants" would be deterred. Further, airlines
continue to fly as if nothing happened, although we inspect the
passengers, but not the food service or cleaning crews, for all sorts
of evidence of weaponry)

Have I made you gentle readers cry in pain yet?


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > If you haven't flown through the area, you are not competent to comment on
> it.
>
> Why?

Unless you've done it, you really don't have a good idea of what's involved.
You can have and express an opinion, based on what you've heard or read, but
you don't really know what you're talking about. I will listen to the comments
of people like Ron Natalie but ignore yours. You have not paid the price to
make your comments on this matter worth listening to.

Me, I have flown through the area. I avoid the ADIZ completely and avoid most
of the class-B. But you don't see me criticizing other pilots who have other
tactics to deal with the situation.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Snowbird]

Jake Brodsky > wrote in message >...

> Sorry folks, that's the way it is. If you don't like it, please
> complain to your congress critters. I have. I got a letter from
> Senator Mikulski and a staggeringly ignorant form letter from Admiral
> Loy. We aren't making enough noise about this issue. Until we do,
> this aviation paranoia will get worse, not better.

Jake,

Would you care to share what you found staggeringly ignorant
about Loy's form letter?

Just curious.
Sydney

[Snowbird]

(Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
> if the rules said that pilots had to wiggle their wings three times and
> toss a carrot out the window before gaining admittance to the zone, not doing
> so would be an "equally" big mistake. For the same inane reason.

You bad! I durn near snorted tea all over my laptop at this.

Imagine the radio transmissions:
"Potomac approach, Cessna 12345 over XXX for Leesburg, with
carrot and wiggling!"

> Not preflighting can get you killed due to the laws of physics. Not getting
> dressed (at least on a nice day) has no consequences other than the arbitrary
> and artificial ones society imposes.

Sunburn, chiggers, and mosquito bites :)

Sydney

[Jay Honeck]

> Me, I have flown through the area. I avoid the ADIZ completely and avoid
most
> of the class-B. But you don't see me criticizing other pilots who have
other
> tactics to deal with the situation.

You consider busting the ADIZ over 600 times a "tactic" for dealing with the
situation?

You seem to be interpreting my posts as a slam against those pilots (like
Ron) who are successfully dealing with the situation.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rachel Carlson]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.
>
> If you haven't flown through the area, you are not competent to comment on it.

That's great logical reasoning. Let's see: "If you haven't flown on the Concorde,
you are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been in the crash, you
are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been to Venus, you are not
competent to comment on it."
Yup, that sure makes sense.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> You seem to be interpreting my posts as a slam against those pilots (like
> Ron) who are successfully dealing with the situation.

No, I'm simply saying that if 600 experienced pilots have busted this airspace
in the relatively short time it has existed, avoiding a bust *must* be a lot
harder than you seem to think it is. Until you try it for yourself, you don't
know what you're talking about, and you're in no position to be pointing fingers
at other pilots and saying "they deserve to have their certificate pulled."

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rachel Carlson wrote:
>
> That's great logical reasoning. Let's see: "If you haven't flown on the Concorde,
> you are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been in the crash, you
> are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been to Venus, you are not
> competent to comment on it."
> Yup, that sure makes sense.

All true statements. Glad you agree.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> You consider busting the ADIZ over 600 times a "tactic" for dealing with the
> situation?
> You seem to be interpreting my posts as a slam against those pilots (like
> Ron) who are successfully dealing with the situation.
> Nothing could be further from the truth.

The problem is, a LOT of the supposed busts were actually ATC or NORAD
mistakes. As far as I can tell, you can do everything perfectly, and you
still have a decent chance of being chased down by the Customs Blackhawk.

I suspect another reasonable percentage of the busts are very slight clips
of the UNCHARTED edges of the ADIZ. Pilots have been chased down for just
getting too close to the boundary, but not actually busting it.

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

> > That's great logical reasoning. Let's see: "If you haven't flown on
> > the Concorde,
> > you are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been in the
> > crash, you
> > are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been to Venus,
> > you are not
> > competent to comment on it."
> > Yup, that sure makes sense.
>
> All true statements. Glad you agree.

utter nonsense

--
Bob Noel

[Andrew Gideon]

Jake Brodsky wrote:


>>What's broken is the assumption that this really DOES stop pink elephants.
>
> The assumption that there in fact ARE Pink Elephants (ie. Suicide
> Terrorists flying GA aircraft) is what's wrong here. We've never seen
> one. They would seem to be highly improbable creatures.

I just read an article in today's NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/politics/15TALK.html

It includes:

Just before Thanksgiving last year, his first
novel, "The Last Jihad," was published. It begins
with a suicide pilot crashing his private plane
into the president's motorcade and ends with the
president saying a silent prayer as the nuclear
bombs he ordered are dropped on Iraq. By December,
it was on The New York Times best-seller list,
where it stayed for 11 weeks.

Apparently, the author is well connected with the "conservative
establishment". He was able to get himself on all sorts of "talk
shows" to promote his book to that audience.

Normally, I'd be all for an author's success. However, it provides
a bit of a view into why the current administration has such fears
of raging pink elephants.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article >, "G.R. Patterson III"
> > wrote:
>
>> > That's great logical reasoning. Let's see: "If you haven't flown on
>> > the Concorde,
>> > you are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been in the
>> > crash, you
>> > are not competent to comment on it.....If you haven't been to Venus,
>> > you are not
>> > competent to comment on it."
>> > Yup, that sure makes sense.
>>
>> All true statements. Glad you agree.
>
> utter nonsense
>

I was hoping to hear comments on flying at (on? over?) Venus.

- Andrew

[Jake Brodsky]

On 14 Nov 2003 17:44:21 -0800, (Snowbird)
wrote:

>Would you care to share what you found staggeringly ignorant
>about Loy's form letter?

It's at home. I hope my kids haven't scribbled on it yet. I'll try
to find it and post it here for all to cry over.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

[Jake Brodsky]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:31:02 -0500, Andrew Gideon >
wrote:

> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/politics/15TALK.html
>
>Apparently, the author is well connected with the "conservative
>establishment". He was able to get himself on all sorts of "talk
>shows" to promote his book to that audience.
>
>Normally, I'd be all for an author's success. However, it provides
>a bit of a view into why the current administration has such fears
>of raging pink elephants.

Yes, there are many ignorati pontificating on this preposterous
possibility, despite the technical hurdles one would need to overcome,
and the unlikeliness that anyone with this sort of background could
brainwash themselves enough to do this sort of thing.

What is lacking is a sense of perspective on the likeliness of a
threat and the existence of much more commonplace and simple
techniques. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. This is an
issue of ignorance and stupidity run amok.

Both the left and the right has their fair share of twits like this.
But they're not a fundamental part of policy for either side as far as
I know.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A