PPL checkride question

[Koopas Ly]

Howdy ya'll,

Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?

Thanks,
Alex

[Jay Honeck]

> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?

Well, I had to -- but that was nine years ago now.

Knowing the FAA, you'll still be required to do that long after the last VOR
approach has been deactivated.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Robert Moore]

(Koopas Ly) wrote

> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?

From the Private Pilot PTS....you really should have a copy.

B. TASK: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS AND RADAR SERVICES
(ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25; Navigation
Equipment Operation Manuals, AIM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems
and radar services.
2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation
system.
3. Locates the airplane's position using the navigation system.
4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial or bearing, as
appropriate.
5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station passage, if
appropriate.
6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.
7. Uses proper communication procedures when utilizing radar
services.
8. Maintains the appropriate altitude, ±200 feet (60 meters) and
headings ±15°.

[Bob Gardner]

Can it be that you do not yet have a copy of the Practical Test Standards?

You will be required to:

"Exhibit knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems (not just
VOR) and radar services.

Demonstrate the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation system

Locate the airplane's location using the navigation system

Intercept and track a given course, radial, or bearing, as appropriate

Recognize and describe the indication of station passage, if appropriate

Recognize signal loss and take appropriate action

Use proper communication procedure when utilizing radar services

Maintain the appropriate altitude plus-minus 200 feet and headings
plus-minus 15 degrees"

Lots more than simple tracking.

Bob Gardner

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Howdy ya'll,
>
> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex

[Z Sten]

Koopas Ly wrote:

> Howdy ya'll,
>
> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
Well, I just passed my checkride two weeks ago. I did have to intercept
a VOR radial and fly inbound while under the hood.
Arnold Sten

[Harry Gordon]

I am not sure how to respond without getting flamed, but here goes... It
concerns me that many of the student pilot postings that I have read in this
newsgroup over the past year or so seemed to center around the idea of "what
is the minimum I must know or do to pass the test?" I hope I am very wrong
with my interpretation of Alex's question. If so, I sincerely apologize.

My answer would be this...regarding VOR radials/intercepts/tracking, etc.,
don't worry about what is in the PTS but learn the technique regardless.
Reason being there will come a time in your flying (I guarantee it if you
fly into SAT) that you will be told to fly direct to the VOR. If you don't
know how to determine what VOR radial you're on and how to track it ... good
luck.

I took my private pilot checkride 2 months ago. Not only did my instructor
tell me to do some VOR work but so did the tower on our return to SAT. You
might say I was "tested" twice: once for the PTS and once to help make the
airways safe for both me and my fellow pilots that were in the air at the
time.

Harry
PP-ASEL

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Howdy ya'll,
>
> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex

[Jeff]

Koopas,
are you having problems with VOR's ?
Do you have a general understanding on how to do it and why you would
intercept,track or ID your position with VOR's ?

The FAA examiner can ask you to do about anything that you learned
during your training. My examiner (who died while doing a check ride
last year) simply told me to fly to the LAS VOR.

Koopas Ly wrote:

> Howdy ya'll,
>
> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex

[Kobra]

>My examiner (who died while doing a check ride
> last year)

You can't leave us hanging like that! What happened? Crash, heart attack,
what?

Kobra

[Koopas Ly]

Harry,

I can understand your concern. My question stems from being asked to
tune and ID a VOR, intercept a radial, and fly inbound, during my
checkride almost five months ago.

With three CFI's during my training, and most likely due to the lack
of instruction continuity, the VOR radial interception procedure had
neither been demonstrated nor practiced in flight, ever, let alone
requested by ATC.

Due to the above, and as helpfully pointed out by other members, I
misinterpreted the PTS section on VOR knowledge as only pertaining to
flying to and from a VOR, not intercepting a radial. In addition,
through mostly wishful thinking, I presumed the procedure in question
was reserved for IFR training.

I should have also known better since a few questions on the written
test pertained to locating yourself with respect to a radial. I
digress.

Going back to the checkride, I can remember sweating bullets while
frantically recalling VOR basics, and just going from there (i.e.
winging it). Turn the OBS to the 180 deg. reciprocal of the radial
requested by the DE, and follow the needle until it centered. I did
get yelled at for chasing the CDI needle and supposedly making some
"big turns" to capture the correct radial. The ironic thing is that
this was the first task the DE asked of me during the flight portion.
What a way to start a checkride by flunking within 5 minutes of
takeoff. In fact, I was tempted to tell the DE: "Sir, I don't believe
that's a PTS item!"

Moral of the lesson: Don't trust your CFI to teach you everything you
need to know. You are responsible for your training. And read the
PTS.


Alex

[Wendy]

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Howdy ya'll,
>
> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex

I was given an XC scenario (KCXO to KSHV, which is surrounded by MOA's, but
that's another story) prior to the oral/checkride, and once in the aircraft
I was asked to set out on the first leg, which required flying a VOR route.
Once established, the examiner, apparently satisfied, declared the weather
below minimums at the destination and had me divert to an alternate. From
there we proceeded on with the rest of the PTS. You can expect it on the
checkride, but you will have done it already anyway.

Wendy

[Harry Gordon]

Alex,


>
> With three CFI's during my training, and most likely due to the lack
> of instruction continuity, the VOR radial interception procedure had
> neither been demonstrated nor practiced in flight, ever, let alone
> requested by ATC.

I must agree with you...I have never had ATC tell me to intercepte a radial
and then fly to the VOR. What airport do you normally fly out of? I fly out
of San Antonio (SAT - Class C airspace). Whenever I approach SAT from the
NE, I will be assured of being told to proceed to the SAT VOR for vectoring.

>
> Going back to the checkride, I can remember sweating bullets while
> frantically recalling VOR basics, and just going from there (i.e.
> winging it). Turn the OBS to the 180 deg. reciprocal of the radial
> requested by the DE, and follow the needle until it centered. I did
> get yelled at for chasing the CDI needle and supposedly making some
> "big turns" to capture the correct radial. The ironic thing is that
> this was the first task the DE asked of me during the flight portion.
> What a way to start a checkride by flunking within 5 minutes of
> takeoff. In fact, I was tempted to tell the DE: "Sir, I don't believe
> that's a PTS item!"
>

I didn't have a VOR problem during my checkride, but I am STILL fighting the
VOR. The last time I flew I was flying inbound on the outbound (reverse
heading) and I got so lost, I'm still not sure I know where I am and that
was 2000 miles from here :-). My problem is not knowing how, my problem is
getting my mind to believe what my insturments are tell me and truly realize
what that "TO/FROM" flag is really telling me. I am planning a cross-country
trip that will be extensively VOR flying using both inbound and outbound
radials. I hope I get it right this time :-).

And, for what it is worth, you only beat me on failing by a few minutes :-).
I went down the tubes when I was asked by the DE what my ground speed was
:-(. Needless to say, it went down hill from there.


> Moral of the lesson: Don't trust your CFI to teach you everything you
> need to know. You are responsible for your training. And read the
> PTS.

AMEN! and AMEN!

Sorry for any misunderstanding. Happy flying, and stay safe.

Harry

[Steve Robertson]

Yep. You might even have to intercept a radial and fly AWAY from the
station.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer

Koopas Ly wrote:

> Howdy ya'll,
>
> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex

[Corky Scott]

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:28:50 -0500, Steve Robertson >
wrote:

>Yep. You might even have to intercept a radial and fly AWAY from the
>station.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Robertson
>N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer
>
>Koopas Ly wrote:
>
>> Howdy ya'll,
>>
>> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
>> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Alex
>
Yup, been there, did that. I was under the hood at that point, trying
really hard to maintain altitude and course when the examiner said:
"hey, how about you intercept the 180 radial and let's track that."

We were southwest of the radial, heading south at the time, so I knew
that I'd have to turn left to intercept. The needle would deflect
left and tell me that when I dialed it in anyway. So I went through
the routine of dialing up the frequency, listening to identify and
then setting 180 on the OBD. The needle was planted all the way to
the left.

I then commenced a left turn to intercept. And kept turning and
turning. Eventually I straightened out on .090. I was doing this
because I'd flown for a bit on a 45 degree intercept but nothing
happened for a while, I wanted to get there faster.

I was tense and ready to see the needle react, so when it twitched and
began centering, I immediately turned right. As the needle reached
center and stopped, I rolled out of the turn and tracked 180.

During the debrief, the examiner told me I should not intercept a
radial at 90 degrees. 45 degrees was more than enough, but since I
managed to hit it and roll out directly on course without having to
correct at all, he shrugged and said he couldn't really fault me for
it. Haven't used a VOR since, of course. ;-)

Corky Scott

[Gig Giacona]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:28:50 -0500, Steve Robertson >
> wrote:
>
> >Yep. You might even have to intercept a radial and fly AWAY from the
> >station.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Steve Robertson
> >N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer
> >
> >Koopas Ly wrote:
> >
> >> Howdy ya'll,
> >>
> >> Is it expected of a student pilot on his private pilot checkride to
> >> intercept a VOR radial and fly towards the station?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Alex
> >
> Yup, been there, did that. I was under the hood at that point, trying
> really hard to maintain altitude and course when the examiner said:
> "hey, how about you intercept the 180 radial and let's track that."
>
> We were southwest of the radial, heading south at the time, so I knew
> that I'd have to turn left to intercept. The needle would deflect
> left and tell me that when I dialed it in anyway. So I went through
> the routine of dialing up the frequency, listening to identify and
> then setting 180 on the OBD. The needle was planted all the way to
> the left.
>
> I then commenced a left turn to intercept. And kept turning and
> turning. Eventually I straightened out on .090. I was doing this
> because I'd flown for a bit on a 45 degree intercept but nothing
> happened for a while, I wanted to get there faster.
>
> I was tense and ready to see the needle react, so when it twitched and
> began centering, I immediately turned right. As the needle reached
> center and stopped, I rolled out of the turn and tracked 180.
>
> During the debrief, the examiner told me I should not intercept a
> radial at 90 degrees. 45 degrees was more than enough, but since I
> managed to hit it and roll out directly on course without having to
> correct at all, he shrugged and said he couldn't really fault me for
> it. Haven't used a VOR since, of course. ;-)
>
> Corky Scott

On my check ride back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth (1980) the DE
said, "Ok, what's the Victor Airway back to ELD that is closest? Intercept
and track it." After that was done he put the hood on me and we did the
unusual attitude stuff then he said, Ok track the same airway FROM the ELD
VOR."

This is the only specific I remember from my PPL check ride. I've been
waiting a while on this newsgroup for it to be on topic.

Gig Giacona
PP SEL R-H

[Koopas Ly]

Harry,

Currently, I fly out of Honolulu International (HNL - Class B
airspace). I did a large portion my training at College Station
Easterwood (CLL - Class D airspace) when I was in college.

I think I'll play with VOR's a little more when I am flying now :)

Blue skies,
Alex
PP-ASEL

[Jeff]

Student stalled airplane and it nosed in.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030411X00490&key=1


Kobra wrote:

> >My examiner (who died while doing a check ride
> > last year)
>
> You can't leave us hanging like that! What happened? Crash, heart attack,
> what?
>
> Kobra

[gross_arrow]

(Corky Scott) wrote in message >...

[snip]


> During the debrief, the examiner told me I should not intercept a
> radial at 90 degrees. 45 degrees was more than enough, but since I
> managed to hit it and roll out directly on course without having to
> correct at all, he shrugged and said he couldn't really fault me for
> it. Haven't used a VOR since, of course. ;-)
>
> Corky Scott

corky --

fwiw, i disagree pretty strongly with the examiner. if you don't
know how far you are from a vor, a 45 deg "intercept" can take you
past the vor before you reach the radial. a 90 is the only "sure bet"
(and in the rare case of horrendous winds, it's not even sure.) thought
experiment: you're 4 nm wnw of the vor heading 180, and are told
to intercept the 360 radial. a 45 deg won't cut it in this case.
in fact, even if you were nw instead of wnw, a 45 would put you
_at the vor_ at the instant of intercept.

that being said, if you have the situational awareness (big picture)
to know your position relative to the vor (dme helps :-)) and you
know a 45 will work, (i.e., get you to the radial before crossing
the vor), then the 45 is probably preferrable.

responding to the original thread: i've only had one private pilot
applicant bust the checkride, and he busted 'cuz he forgot how to
intercept a radial (that was about 10 or 12 years ago). so now, i
make _damn sure_ the student can do that consistently. (he did
o.k. the last time i flew with him, but choked on the exam.)

g_a

[John Roncallo]

Harry Gordon wrote:

> I am not sure how to respond without getting flamed, but here goes... It
> concerns me that many of the student pilot postings that I have read in this
> newsgroup over the past year or so seemed to center around the idea of "what
> is the minimum I must know or do to pass the test?" I hope I am very wrong
> with my interpretation of Alex's question. If so, I sincerely apologize.
>
> My answer would be this...regarding VOR radials/intercepts/tracking, etc.,
> don't worry about what is in the PTS but learn the technique regardless.
> Reason being there will come a time in your flying (I guarantee it if you
> fly into SAT) that you will be told to fly direct to the VOR. If you don't
> know how to determine what VOR radial you're on and how to track it ... good
> luck.
>
> I took my private pilot checkride 2 months ago. Not only did my instructor
> tell me to do some VOR work but so did the tower on our return to SAT. You
> might say I was "tested" twice: once for the PTS and once to help make the
> airways safe for both me and my fellow pilots that were in the air at the
> time.
>

I tend to dissagree with this. Learning more than the minimum required
for a rating during the process of going for that rating is a waste of
time and money, especially in todays environment where a student is
likely to have more than one instructor befor getting his ticket, which
only adds to the useless bits of conflicting irrelevant trivia each
instructor adds.

In 1980 I started my PP lessons. I had a substitute instructor for my
third lesson. He decided to teach me 8's on pylons (required commercial
manuver WTF). This was the third time I was ever in the plane. It wasnt
difficult to do but I never did an 8 on pylons for another 20 years when
I did my commercial rating. It was just a waste of what would now amount
to about $130.00/hr.

Your example of VOR tracking as going beyond minimum training is
irrelevant because VOR tracking is required by the PTS and you better
damn well know it befor taking your PP checkride.

Now that being said. It is always good to go up with an experianced
instructor to learn more after you get your ticket, just to learn new
things and to keep sharp. Since I got my licence I have also done spin
training and occasionally I find a day with some good winds and do
crosswind landings. Last year I was pacticing approaches in wind
exceeding 50 knot gusts directly accross the runway. Of course this was
with an instructor fluent with this kind of stuff. I was able to
complete the approaches OK but I dident land the plane because it was
just too windy for me. It was still very good to have been in a plane
when someone else performed the landings just to have the confidence of
knowing that it can be done.

I belive these things are good to practice because you never know when
your forcast is going to be completly wrong.

John Roncallo