JFK

[Big John]

40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
and was dead.

May he rest in peace.

Big John

[Jay Honeck]

> May he rest in peace.

Amen, brother. I was a five-year old lad, glued to our black & white,
3-channel TV, wondering why all the adults around me were crying...

One of the scariest experiences of my childhood.

As an aside, the event also marked the genesis of our current presidential
"security" headaches.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Charles]

> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

And the sad historical footnote is that we still don't know who really did
it.

[Tony Cox]

> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

40 years ago this week I was a young lad in England excitedly
waiting for the 2nd episode of Dr. Who on the BBC. Kennedy's
death and funeral changed all the schedules and delayed the
broadcast for a week. One week is an awfully long time to an
8-year-old.

I've harbored a simmering resentment of the Kennedy clan ever
since, and now vote against them and their Democrat friends
whenever I get the chance. Revenge is sweet.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Cecil E. Chapman]

I normally wouldn't have replied to this thread, but when I saw your post it
made me smile.

I've never understood the reverence for JFK, his infidelity made Clinton
look like a abstinent monk. The actions in a similar vein half made me
dislike the clan more and more. Heck, a Kennedy can drown or even murder a
woman and still get off. They are reprehensible, certainly not worthy of
reverence.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
.net...
> > 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> > Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> > 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> > out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> > frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> > and was dead.
> >
> > May he rest in peace.
> >
> > Big John
>
> 40 years ago this week I was a young lad in England excitedly
> waiting for the 2nd episode of Dr. Who on the BBC. Kennedy's
> death and funeral changed all the schedules and delayed the
> broadcast for a week. One week is an awfully long time to an
> 8-year-old.
>
> I've harbored a simmering resentment of the Kennedy clan ever
> since, and now vote against them and their Democrat friends
> whenever I get the chance. Revenge is sweet.
>
> --
> Dr. Tony Cox
> Citrus Controls Inc.
> e-mail:
> http://CitrusControls.com/
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:aQ7tb.198935$Tr4.569143@attbi_s03...
> > May he rest in peace.
>
> Amen, brother. I was a five-year old lad, glued to our black & white,
> 3-channel TV, wondering why all the adults around me were crying...
>
> One of the scariest experiences of my childhood.
>
What I couldn't understand was why they kept digging him up again (they
showed the funeral many times on TV, I hadn't quite gotten the concept
of film/videotape down at that age).

[Ron Natalie]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message .net...

> I've harbored a simmering resentment of the Kennedy clan ever
> since, and now vote against them and their Democrat friends
> whenever I get the chance. Revenge is sweet.

Watch out or we'll send the Daleks after you.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>

Today is November 14, 2003. JFK was shot and killed on November 22, 1963.

[Jay Honeck]

> Today is November 14, 2003. JFK was shot and killed on November 22, 1963.

Uh-oh; you blew his cover. Big John was actually flying one of those
experimental warp-drive F-89Js -- the kind with hyper-drive. He hit a worm
hole, and messed up his space/time reference. For HIM it happened on the
14th.

Prolly why they never continued the testing program beyond the prototype...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michael 182]

What does infidelity have to do with his legacy? Do you disdain Franklin
Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Dwight Eisenhower as well? In fact, if you run
down the founding fathers John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and
Alexander Hamilton have all been accused of being adulterers. Who cares?



"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
om...
> I normally wouldn't have replied to this thread, but when I saw your post
it
> made me smile.
>
> I've never understood the reverence for JFK, his infidelity made Clinton
> look like a abstinent monk. The actions in a similar vein half made me
> dislike the clan more and more. Heck, a Kennedy can drown or even murder
a
> woman and still get off. They are reprehensible, certainly not worthy of
> reverence.
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> .net...
> > > 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> > > Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> > > 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> > > out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> > > frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> > > and was dead.
> > >
> > > May he rest in peace.
> > >
> > > Big John
> >
> > 40 years ago this week I was a young lad in England excitedly
> > waiting for the 2nd episode of Dr. Who on the BBC. Kennedy's
> > death and funeral changed all the schedules and delayed the
> > broadcast for a week. One week is an awfully long time to an
> > 8-year-old.
> >
> > I've harbored a simmering resentment of the Kennedy clan ever
> > since, and now vote against them and their Democrat friends
> > whenever I get the chance. Revenge is sweet.
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Tony Cox
> > Citrus Controls Inc.
> > e-mail:
> > http://CitrusControls.com/
> >
> >
>
>

[Tony Cox]

> Today is November 14, 2003. JFK was shot and killed on November 22, 1963.

Big John is still using the Julian calendar, like any sensible person. To
hell with
this Gregorian heresy.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Keith McQueen]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:29:09 +0000, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>
> "Big John" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>> and was dead.
>>
>> May he rest in peace.
>>
>
> Today is November 14, 2003. JFK was shot and killed on November 22, 1963.

Yeah. On November 22, 1963, I was happily celebrating my 8th birthday.
The announcement kind of ruined the whole day for me. The worse part is
that I get reminded of it every year by the media...

[Jay Honeck]

> What does infidelity have to do with his legacy? Do you disdain Franklin
> Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Dwight Eisenhower as well? In fact, if you
run
> down the founding fathers John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and
> Alexander Hamilton have all been accused of being adulterers. Who cares?

I, for one, believe that any President should be held to the highest moral
standards, for one simple reason:

If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with him?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:2%8tb.1931$Dw6.16125@attbi_s02...

> If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with him?

What makes you think he lied to his wife? :-)

You can always tell when a politician is lying. His lips move.

[Ron Natalie]

"Keith McQueen" > wrote in message ...

>
> Yeah. On November 22, 1963, I was happily celebrating my 8th birthday.
> The announcement kind of ruined the whole day for me. The worse part is
> that I get reminded of it every year by the media...
>
November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to not incriminate
myself.

[Michael 182]

Sorry, I don't see any correlation between fidelity, infidelity, and public
service. People's private lives are just that, private. We've had plenty of
examples of both good and bad presidents (and leaders in general) who were
adulterers. Unfortunately the press no longer sees it that way.

As an aside, I may be cynical, but I believe every President lies to the
public, both through omission and commission. They'd never get elected or be
able to govern if they were completely honest.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2%8tb.1931$Dw6.16125@attbi_s02...
>
> If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with him?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Cecil E. Chapman]

I just think that it speaks to the man's personal sense of honor. His
pledge to his wife in marriage was broken over and over - such a man has no
sense of honor - and...... what else with a man with no sense of personal
honor lie about? IMHO.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:FK8tb.146868$mZ5.1002812@attbi_s54...
> What does infidelity have to do with his legacy? Do you disdain Franklin
> Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Dwight Eisenhower as well? In fact, if you
run
> down the founding fathers John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and
> Alexander Hamilton have all been accused of being adulterers. Who cares?
>
>
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I normally wouldn't have replied to this thread, but when I saw your
post
> it
> > made me smile.
> >
> > I've never understood the reverence for JFK, his infidelity made Clinton
> > look like a abstinent monk. The actions in a similar vein half made me
> > dislike the clan more and more. Heck, a Kennedy can drown or even
murder
> a
> > woman and still get off. They are reprehensible, certainly not worthy
of
> > reverence.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Good Flights!
> >
> > Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> > PP-ASEL
> >
> > "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> > We are alive in the air with this miracle
> > that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> >
> > - Cecil Day Lewis-
> >
> > Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
> > "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> > .net...
> > > > 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard
at
> > > > Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> > > > 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> > > > out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> > > > frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in
Dallas
> > > > and was dead.
> > > >
> > > > May he rest in peace.
> > > >
> > > > Big John
> > >
> > > 40 years ago this week I was a young lad in England excitedly
> > > waiting for the 2nd episode of Dr. Who on the BBC. Kennedy's
> > > death and funeral changed all the schedules and delayed the
> > > broadcast for a week. One week is an awfully long time to an
> > > 8-year-old.
> > >
> > > I've harbored a simmering resentment of the Kennedy clan ever
> > > since, and now vote against them and their Democrat friends
> > > whenever I get the chance. Revenge is sweet.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr. Tony Cox
> > > Citrus Controls Inc.
> > > e-mail:
> > > http://CitrusControls.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Well if repeated infidelity is not a problem with you,,, what about
abandoning a girlfriend to drown (one Kennedy) and murdering another woman
(still another, younger Kennedy). They just aren't an honorable bunch...

By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds like
something today's extreme right wingers would say....

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:md9tb.147048$mZ5.1005335@attbi_s54...
> Sorry, I don't see any correlation between fidelity, infidelity, and
public
> service. People's private lives are just that, private. We've had plenty
of
> examples of both good and bad presidents (and leaders in general) who were
> adulterers. Unfortunately the press no longer sees it that way.
>
> As an aside, I may be cynical, but I believe every President lies to the
> public, both through omission and commission. They'd never get elected or
be
> able to govern if they were completely honest.
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:2%8tb.1931$Dw6.16125@attbi_s02...
> >
> > If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with
him?
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[Cecil E. Chapman]

My dad's birthday is the 22nd,,, you can reassure Margie that she is a LOT
younger than him <GRIN>

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Keith McQueen" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > Yeah. On November 22, 1963, I was happily celebrating my 8th birthday.
> > The announcement kind of ruined the whole day for me. The worse part is
> > that I get reminded of it every year by the media...
> >
> November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to not
incriminate
> myself.
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds like
> something today's extreme right wingers would say....

Wow -- I never thought about it that way.

Interesting (and somewhat disturbing) correlation...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...

[Bob Noel]

In article <md9tb.147048$mZ5.1005335@attbi_s54>, "Michael 182"
> wrote:

> Sorry, I don't see any correlation between fidelity, infidelity, and
> public
> service.

In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
valued characteristics of the best leaders.

--
Bob Noel

[Peter Duniho]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
> Well if repeated infidelity is not a problem with you,,, what about
> abandoning a girlfriend to drown (one Kennedy) and murdering another woman
> (still another, younger Kennedy). They just aren't an honorable bunch...

I would hate to be judged by the behavior of some of my relatives. If
you're going to hate me, hate me for my own actions, not those of someone
else.

> By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> valued characteristics of the best leaders.

That has no bearing on what actually *does* make the best leaders. It only
shows what people think makes the best leaders.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to not
incriminate
> myself.

Incriminate yourself? Cradle robber? :)

[Michael 182]

No, I believe he got it right. From JFK's 1961 inaugural. FDR's most famous
line was "We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
> > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
>
> Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

> > In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> > consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> > valued characteristics of the best leaders.
>
> That has no bearing on what actually *does* make the best leaders. It
> only
> shows what people think makes the best leaders.
>

understood.

But I would love to discuss this with someone who thinks
that honesty, integrity, and moral are not important characteristics
of the best leaders. I am very interested in what characteristics
they think make the best leaders (which, of course, also wouldn't
have any bearing on what actually does make the best leaders...
now my head hurts.)

--
Bob Noel

[Michael 182]

Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe in
morality and still have affairs. Many people would never stand up to the
scrutiny that they impose on others. The Republicans found that out during
the Clinton impeachment as Bob Livingston, Bob Barr, Dan Burton, Helen
Chenoweth all revealed they had affairs. Newt Gingrich was rumored to have
resigned under the same cloud.

The point is, all of these politicians, Republican and Democrat, are quite
likely honest people who will do a good job representing the people who
elected them. Once they started throwing stones, however, the glass houses
cumbled.

Once again, their marraiges, sex life or other personal issues are none of
our damn business.


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> > consistently believe that are honesty, integrity, morality highly
> > valued characteristics of the best leaders.
>
> That has no bearing on what actually *does* make the best leaders. It
only
> shows what people think makes the best leaders.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> But I would love to discuss this with someone who thinks
> that honesty, integrity, and moral are not important characteristics
> of the best leaders.

First you need to define "best". Personally, I'd agree with you that I'd
like for my leaders to have those characteristics. However, IMHO societies
in general have a poor track record selecting leaders with those qualities,
and it could be argued that leaders without those qualities are capable of
serving those they lead better.

It depends a lot on what the leader is expected to do, and how they are
expected to do it.

Pete

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Guess again....

From Pres John F. Kennedy's inaugural address delivered in 1961

> I would hate to be judged by the behavior of some of my relatives. If
> you're going to hate me, hate me for my own actions, not those of someone
> else.

but jeez the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and I haven't even
addressed that other Kennedy who was the rapist..

The Kennedy's are/were rotten to the core. Wealthy to the point that they
didn't belive that the law was for them.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > Well if repeated infidelity is not a problem with you,,, what about
> > abandoning a girlfriend to drown (one Kennedy) and murdering another
woman
> > (still another, younger Kennedy). They just aren't an honorable
bunch...
>

>
> > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
>
> Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Cecil E. Chapman]

> Once again, their marriages, sex life or other personal issues are none of
> our damn business.

Well evidently your viewpoint was also shared by the heads of the Catholic
church about their child-molesting priests. "Well, they do their 'job',,
we'll look the other way on our priest's 'personal interests' "

I'm done with this thread... We can simply agree that we disagree... bye
bye :-)

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:Eqatb.2325$Dw6.16807@attbi_s02...
> Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe in
> morality and still have affairs. Many people would never stand up to the
> scrutiny that they impose on others. The Republicans found that out during
> the Clinton impeachment as Bob Livingston, Bob Barr, Dan Burton, Helen
> Chenoweth all revealed they had affairs. Newt Gingrich was rumored to have
> resigned under the same cloud.
>
> The point is, all of these politicians, Republican and Democrat, are quite
> likely honest people who will do a good job representing the people who
> elected them. Once they started throwing stones, however, the glass houses
> cumbled.
>

>
>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> > > consistently believe that are honesty, integrity, morality highly
> > > valued characteristics of the best leaders.
> >
> > That has no bearing on what actually *does* make the best leaders. It
> only
> > shows what people think makes the best leaders.
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message ...

>
> > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
>
> Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
>
Sorry, Pete. It was JFK's innaugural address.

[Ron Natalie]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message ...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> > November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to not
> incriminate
> > myself.
>
> Incriminate yourself? Cradle robber? :)
>
No actually, she's older than I am.

[Ron Natalie]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message news:L9atb.200777$Fm2.189251@attbi_s04...
> No, I believe he got it right. From JFK's 1961 inaugural. FDR's most famous
> line was "We have nothing to fear but fear itself"
>
Or Pat Paulsen's "We have nothing to fear but fear itself...and the boogeyman."

His other great polictical idea was to turn the deficit into a governement program and
then start cutting back until it is elimimated entirely.

[Jay Honeck]

> Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe in
> morality and still have affairs.

Evidently your definitions of "honesty", "integrity", and "morality"
conflict with mine. I'd be interested (though probably not on an aviation
newsgroup) to hear how someone can possess those attributes while at the
same time cheating on their spouse.

The mental gymnastics it would take to bring those two diametrically opposed
moral positions into balance would be fun to watch, if nothing else.

End result: JFK may have had some good traits as a leader -- and I don't
think he wasn't in office long enough to prove that assertion -- but he was
not an admirable man.

(Which, by the way, doesn't reduce our national grief at having had a
sitting president assassinated.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message om...

>
> The Kennedy's are/were rotten to the core. Wealthy to the point that they
> didn't belive that the law was for them.
>

Well, Bobby wasn't bad. And Joe Jr. died in a very risky mission he volunteered for.
The biggest problem is that Joseph Kennedy was hardly the type to instill a sound sense
of morals in his sons.

[Wdtabor]

>I was about 150
>out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>and was dead.

I was in Junior High when I heard the news, and I remember my first thought was
that I hoped my father had a sound alibi.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Icebound]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe in
>>morality and still have affairs.
>
>
> Evidently your definitions of "honesty", "integrity", and "morality"
> conflict with mine. I'd be interested (though probably not on an aviation
> newsgroup) to hear how someone can possess those attributes while at the
> same time cheating on their spouse.
>
> The mental gymnastics it would take to bring those two diametrically opposed
> moral positions into balance would be fun to watch, if nothing else.
>
> End result: JFK may have had some good traits as a leader -- and I don't
> think he wasn't in office long enough to prove that assertion -- but he was
> not an admirable man.
>
> (Which, by the way, doesn't reduce our national grief at having had a
> sitting president assassinated.)

He may have had a much greater love for his country than for his wife.
He may have paid a lot more attention to running it than running his
marriage.

It happens.

It is interesting that this rather small-c conservative newgroup has not
mentioned his military service yet???

[Roger Long]

How did they know since it wouldn't happen for another 8 days yet?

--
Roger Long

Big John > wrote in message
...
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:


>
> End result: JFK may have had some good traits as a leader -- and I don't
> think he wasn't in office long enough to prove that assertion -- but he was
> not an admirable man.

He was in office for nearly three years. If your leadership can't be
proved in that amount of time then you don't have it.

[Jay Honeck]

> No actually, she's older than I am.

No way!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Icebound]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>
>>
>> End result: JFK may have had some good traits as a leader -- and I don't
>> think he wasn't in office long enough to prove that assertion -- but
>> he was
>> not an admirable man.
>
>
> He was in office for nearly three years. If your leadership can't be
> proved in that amount of time then you don't have it.
>

Let's see... in 3 years:
a) Space exploration and start of race to the moon.
b) Civil rights issue.
c) Handling of Cuban Missle crisis.

Leadership???

[Tom S.]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>

Were you in a nine day time warp?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Big John wrote:
>
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR.

I was in High School French class when the intercom came on .....

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
>
> Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.

Nope. JFK. I've seen the newsclip at least 20 times in my life.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Dan Luke]

"Bob Noel" wrote:
> But I would love to discuss this with someone who thinks
> that honesty, integrity, and moral are not important
> characteristics of the best leaders. I am very interested in
> what characteristics they think make the best leaders (which,'
> of course, also wouldn't have any bearing on what actually
> does make the best leaders...now my head hurts.)

Mine too.
Especially since what you mean by "best" is so debateable. If you mean
"most able to sway the masses" then a great gift of gab makes a great
leader, e.g. Adolph Hitler, Winston Churchill and Ronald Reagan (no, I'm
not saying they are morally equivalent).

My choice for a "best" leader would be Abe Lincoln, who lead his country
through a war and a difficult moral struggle with honesty and dignity --
and he wasn't bad in the gift of gab department, either.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[gross_arrow]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message .net...
>
> > I've harbored a simmering resentment of the Kennedy clan ever
> > since, and now vote against them and their Democrat friends
> > whenever I get the chance. Revenge is sweet.
>
> Watch out or we'll send the Daleks after you.


exterminate!! ... exterminate!!


:-)

g_a

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bob Noel wrote:
>
> In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> valued characteristics of the best leaders.

Actually, I don't want politicians who are leaders. Hitler's title was "the
leader". Mussolini's title was "the leader". Whatever happened to the idea that
the president and Congreass are *servants* of the people?

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[No Such User]

In article >, Big John wrote:
>40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>and was dead.
>
Wow, that controller knew he was going to die a full week before November 22?
He must have been psychic. Or maybe he was part of The Conspiracy...

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:
>
> I've never understood the reverence for JFK, his infidelity made Clinton
> look like a abstinent monk.

Yeah, but he never committed perjury about it, which is what got Clinton
impeached.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Ron
Natalie" > wrote:

> > > November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to
> > > not
> > incriminate
> > > myself.
> >
> > Incriminate yourself? Cradle robber? :)
> >
> No actually, she's older than I am.

That's pretty close to incriminating yourself...

:-)

--
Bob Noel

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to not incriminate
> myself.

A wise man!

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

> > In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> > consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> > valued characteristics of the best leaders.
>
> Actually, I don't want politicians who are leaders. Hitler's title was
> "the
> leader". Mussolini's title was "the leader". Whatever happened to the
> idea that
> the president and Congreass are *servants* of the people?

Don't take such a narrow view of what a leader is. The US President
can be both a servant of the people as well as a good leader.

--
Bob Noel

[C J Campbell]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:FK8tb.146868$mZ5.1002812@attbi_s54...
| What does infidelity have to do with his legacy?

Okay, what was his legacy?

"Profiles in Courage" was ghost written.

Almost everything he took credit for was actually the work of others.

He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
Reagan's watch.

Fidel still runs Cuba.

Laos went Communist anyway.

The Apollo program was good.

But, why are most of my memories of him playing touch football on the White
House lawn?

And why do so many historians regard him as one of the most corrupt
Presidents in history (possibly second only to LBJ)?

Really, the whole Kennedy mystique seems to be a product, not of the
Kennedys, but of Jacqueline.

[C J Campbell]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
| Well if repeated infidelity is not a problem with you,,, what about
| abandoning a girlfriend to drown (one Kennedy) and murdering another woman
| (still another, younger Kennedy). They just aren't an honorable bunch...
|
| By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
| country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds like
| something today's extreme right wingers would say....
|

In many respects JFK WAS an extreme right winger.

[Gary Mishler]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Duniho wrote:
> >
> > > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
> >
> > Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
>
> Nope. JFK. I've seen the newsclip at least 20 times in my life.

Correct. It's from his inaugural address. I was in 2nd grade I bet I've
seen in 50+ times since then.

[Michael 182]

You missed the point. I'm not arguing whether he was a good or bad
president. I'm just saying that his infidelity has nothing to do with his
political successes or failures. You make some good points regarding his
failures, and those are appropriate to measure hs career by, not his
personal life.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:FK8tb.146868$mZ5.1002812@attbi_s54...
> | What does infidelity have to do with his legacy?
>
> Okay, what was his legacy?
>
> "Profiles in Courage" was ghost written.
>
> Almost everything he took credit for was actually the work of others.
>
> He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
> Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
> Reagan's watch.
>
> Fidel still runs Cuba.
>
> Laos went Communist anyway.
>
> The Apollo program was good.
>
> But, why are most of my memories of him playing touch football on the
White
> House lawn?
>
> And why do so many historians regard him as one of the most corrupt
> Presidents in history (possibly second only to LBJ)?
>
> Really, the whole Kennedy mystique seems to be a product, not of the
> Kennedys, but of Jacqueline.
>
>

[Bob Fry]

Big John > writes:

> 40 years ago today...
> announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas

Eh? That was November 22. Not today. Or am I in a time warp.

[Bob Fry]

"Michael 182" > writes:

> What does infidelity have to do with his legacy?

Not much of a legacy. He was only in office 3 years so didn't have
much time...Cuba was a disaster every way, after the nuke showdown
Cuba didn't have any missles BUT they had a promise of no invasion by
us. A win for the Soviets though I guess they didn't see it that way.

JFK simply didn't get much done. But he was studly and that's what
counts in the world.

[John Roncallo]

Big John wrote:
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John


I was about 6 years old in 1st grade Catholic School. They anounced it
over the PA and everyone was listening intently until they said the
buses wouild be arriving early for an early dismissal. Then great chears
went up!!! JFK became a marter for first grade children.

John Roncallo

[Dan Luke]

"C J Campbell" wrote:
> And why do so many historians regard him as one of the most corrupt
> Presidents in history (possibly second only to LBJ)?

Compared to Nixon, either one of those guys is a piker. Who are these
historians, AEI wonks?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Icebound]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
>
> In many respects JFK WAS an extreme right winger.
>
>


Maybe rather than blindly follow any specific "ideology", he tried to do
what was best for the people of his country, regardless of whether it
was perceived as "left", or "right".

[BTIZ]

I had just seen his motorcade the day before in Amarillo Texas as he drove
by my house and was watching the happenings on TV.

I was 7

BT

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

[Dan Luke]

"Bob Fry" wrote:
> JFK simply didn't get much done. But he was studly and that's what
> counts in the world.

Exactly.

Presidents are elected on TV appeal, and JFK was prettier than Nixon. He
was a dangerous playboy with a penchant for international mischief, but
he had sex appeal that America couldn't resist - still can't. Reagan
was the quintessential TV president, revered now because he had the luck
to be sitting in the big chair when Soviet communism finally rotted to
pieces, even though his presidency was marked by colossal deficits, the
S&L debacle and sleazy dealings with scum in Iran and Central America.
But boy, he sure could say "God bless America" on TV like no one else!
We loved it!

Clinton and Bush? Same thing: they won because they were cuter on the
tube than their opponents.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Icebound]

C J Campbell wrote:

>
> Fidel still runs Cuba.
>


Kennedy saw do it that Fidel was not shooting at the USA. The fact that
Fidel still runs Cuba is the cumulative product of his genes and 40
years of USA foreign policy by quite a few presidents other than Kennedy.

What is it with the US policy about Cuba anyway? Fidel has not been a
serious threat in years. Would not a little more openess have helped
the USA's image with the people-on-the-street in Cuba??

If you cut off Cuba, why not China?

[Icebound]

Dan Luke wrote:
....
> Presidents are elected on TV appeal, and JFK was prettier than Nixon. He
> was a dangerous playboy with a penchant for international mischief, but
> he had sex appeal that America couldn't resist - still can't. Reagan
> was the quintessential TV president, revered now because he had the luck
> to be sitting in the big chair when Soviet communism finally rotted to
> pieces, even though his presidency was marked by colossal deficits, the
> S&L debacle and sleazy dealings with scum in Iran and Central America.
> But boy, he sure could say "God bless America" on TV like no one else!
> We loved it!
>
> Clinton and Bush? Same thing: they won because they were cuter on the
> tube than their opponents.

Absolutely!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
>

No, it was JFK.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Icebound" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
>
> Maybe rather than blindly follow any specific "ideology", he tried to do
> what was best for the people of his country, regardless of whether it
> was perceived as "left", or "right".
>

Anyone who tries to to do what is best for the people of his country will
be labelled an extreme right winger.

[Montblack]

("C J Campbell" wrote)
<snip>
> He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
> Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
> Reagan's watch.


Fall of The Wall was 1989 - Bush's watch.

Folks may have marched up to it on Reagan's watch, but it was Bush who was
on station when she toppled.

Nov 14, 1963 for JFK? Now this, the Fall of the Berlin Wall in the wrong
year - it's either that or it's the wrong prez for 1989.

People watch out for those dates in this thread. <g>

--
Montblack

[Tom S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Keith McQueen" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > Yeah. On November 22, 1963, I was happily celebrating my 8th birthday.
> > The announcement kind of ruined the whole day for me. The worse part is
> > that I get reminded of it every year by the media...
> >
> November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to not
incriminate
> myself.
>
Do you mean "incriminate" or rather "endanger" yourself?

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ron Natalie wrote:
> >
> > November 22 is Margy's birthday as well. I'm omit the year so as to
not incriminate
> > myself.
>
> A wise man!

Nah!! Simply survival instincts.

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Sorry, Pete. It was JFK's innaugural address.

Hmm...you're right, of course. Dunno how I got that one confused. I wonder
what FDR said that I think is a JFK quote. I obviously have at least two of
them mixed up. :)

[C J Campbell]

"Icebound" > wrote in message
. rogers.com...
| >
| > Clinton and Bush? Same thing: they won because they were cuter on the
| > tube than their opponents.
|
| Absolutely!
|

Man, if that's what it takes, I couldn't be elected dogcatcher.

[Peter Duniho]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, I don't want politicians who are leaders. Hitler's title was
"the
> leader". Mussolini's title was "the leader". Whatever happened to the idea
that
> the president and Congreass are *servants* of the people?

It can be said of most people in leadership positions that they are servants
of the people whom they are supposed to lead. Unfortunately, most people
who wind up in leadership positions fail to recognize this and in fact
aspire to positions of leadership for all the wrong reasons.

US politics and businesses alike are prime examples of this. I don't think
there's anything mutually exclusive of a person being a leader and a servant
all at the same time though.

Pete

[Big John]

Steven

I should know that.

Over breakfast my wife said today and I never question what she says.
Been doing that for 58 years and she still gets up and cooks breakfast
for me. :o)

Sorry. Please adjust your calendar.

Big John


On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:29:09 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>> and was dead.
>>
>> May he rest in peace.
>>
>
>Today is November 14, 2003. JFK was shot and killed on November 22, 1963.
>

[Big John]

This started OT as I was flying when it happened but sure got off
thread rapidly. Interesting subject to see how history has treated
those involved (facts, innuendo's etc.)


Big John



On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:38:22 -0600, Big John >
wrote:

>40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>and was dead.
>
>May he rest in peace.
>
>Big John

[Dave]

I thought he was killed on 22 November 1963 which means that the anniversary
is next week.

FWIW


"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

[karl gruber]

*****>> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard
at
>> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR.*****

As a teenager, I lived overlooking the Columbia River and the Portland
Airport. The "Scorpion" was a fantastic sounding airplane, especially the
"BANG" when the afterburners were lit on takeoff.

Best,
Karl

[Chris Hoffmann]

I've only been reading this group for a few months, so I have to ask - is
this the first time Pete's been mistaken?

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Sorry, Pete. It was JFK's innaugural address.
>
> Hmm...you're right, of course. Dunno how I got that one confused. I
wonder
> what FDR said that I think is a JFK quote. I obviously have at least two
of
> them mixed up. :)
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've only been reading this group for a few months, so I have to ask - is
> this the first time Pete's been mistaken?
>

No.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> I should know that.
>
> Over breakfast my wife said today and I never question what she says.
> Been doing that for 58 years and she still gets up and cooks breakfast
> for me. :o)
>
> Sorry. Please adjust your calendar.
>

Well, yeah, if she's cookin' breakfast for ya.....

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:15:04 GMT, Bob Noel wrote:

>> Sorry, I don't see any correlation between fidelity, infidelity, and
>> public
>> service.
>
>In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
>consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
>valued characteristics of the best leaders.

But we don't get the best. We get exactly what we deserve.

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> >In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> >consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> >valued characteristics of the best leaders.
>
> But we don't get the best.

true enough

>We get exactly what we deserve.

Wrong. While we really have to blame ourselves for electing
liars like Clinton, we don't deserve that kind of leaderhsip.

--
Bob Noel

[Jay Honeck]

> If you cut off Cuba, why not China?

Who would make our toys?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > I've only been reading this group for a few months, so I have to ask -
is
> > this the first time Pete's been mistaken?
> >
>
> No.

Well, more accurately he thought he was wrong once, but was then proved to
be incorrect.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Rhodes]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:38:22 -0600, Big John >
wrote:

>40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>and was dead.
>
>May he rest in peace.
>
>Big John

But not the U.S., which now suffers under the Irish curse, or the
Irish wrath, which is a curse, for it is distinctly Irish. And it is
opportunism, (embarrassingly so) as clarified by the next paragraph.
What the U.S. actually lost was the influence of a particular
First Lady, who gave us her rendition of the White House, and whose
ancestors are French (not Irish, doesn't even look it), and who was
not satisfactory to the president in all his ways. But the JFK name
is above so much.
What the U.S. gained was LBJ managing of JFK's Asian commitments.
But I think congress was more committed to Asia than even LBJ, who
seemed a bit indecisive on the matter. (I'm guessing here. We were
committed, and warned against that.) I think he had good reason to be
indecisive.
T'was a sad time, after his death. But that may be a coincidence.

Mike

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > If you cut off Cuba, why not China?
>
> Who would make our toys?

Exactly.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:18:02 GMT, Bob Noel wrote:

>>We get exactly what we deserve.
>
>Wrong. While we really have to blame ourselves for electing
>liars like Clinton, we don't deserve that kind of leaderhsip.

Maybe you haven't deserved Clinton. But you sure deserve Shrub.
*hehe*

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[G.R. Patterson III]

Icebound wrote:
>
> Maybe rather than blindly follow any specific "ideology", he tried to do
> what was best for the people of his country, regardless of whether it
> was perceived as "left", or "right".

Many politicians did that sort of thing before campaign reform laws forced them
to follow the party line if they want to get funding.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Dan Luke]

"Big John" wrote:
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J

Hey, Big John, wasn't that the thing with about a jillion rockets in
wingtip pods? Did you ever get to fire them?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:38:12 -0500, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>Maybe not, but the last time I heard a politico refer to serving the people was
>many, many years ago. Of course, lots of them do provide service, in the same
>sense that a bull provides it to a cow.

at least it is a good thing for a cow to get srewed. :-)

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> I don't think
> there's anything mutually exclusive of a person being a leader and a servant
> all at the same time though.

Maybe not, but the last time I heard a politico refer to serving the people was
many, many years ago. Of course, lots of them do provide service, in the same
sense that a bull provides it to a cow.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Tom S.]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
> | Well if repeated infidelity is not a problem with you,,, what about
> | abandoning a girlfriend to drown (one Kennedy) and murdering another
woman
> | (still another, younger Kennedy). They just aren't an honorable
bunch...
> |
> | By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> | country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds
like
> | something today's extreme right wingers would say....
> |
>
> In many respects JFK WAS an extreme right winger.
>
Indeed, JFK's quote is not too far removed from this one:

"Thus state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the
conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly
human culture..." Adolf Hitler, _Mein_Kampf_

(IOW; the collective and service to the state over the individual and the
government as servant, not the master).

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:FK8tb.146868$mZ5.1002812@attbi_s54...
> What does infidelity have to do with his legacy? Do you disdain Franklin
> Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Dwight Eisenhower as well?

Yeah, the first two.

> In fact, if you run
> down the founding fathers John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and
> Alexander Hamilton have all been accused of being adulterers. Who cares?

Different context in those days when life expectancy of a woman was often in
her 20's.

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2%8tb.1931$Dw6.16125@attbi_s02...
> > What does infidelity have to do with his legacy? Do you disdain
Franklin
> > Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Dwight Eisenhower as well? In fact, if you
> run
> > down the founding fathers John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and
> > Alexander Hamilton have all been accused of being adulterers. Who cares?
>
> I, for one, believe that any President should be held to the highest moral
> standards, for one simple reason:
>
> If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with him?

What makes you think Bubba lied to Frau Braun...I mean Hillary? (Using
Webster's definition of the word "lied", not Bubba's.)

[Tom S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2%8tb.1931$Dw6.16125@attbi_s02...
>
> > If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with
him?
>
> What makes you think he lied to his wife? :-)

Maybe because she konked him with an ashtray?

> You can always tell when a politician is lying. His lips move.

Ahhh...the distinction between a "politician" and a "statesman"!!!

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:L9atb.200777$Fm2.189251@attbi_s04...
> No, I believe he got it right. From JFK's 1961 inaugural. FDR's most
famous
> line was "We have nothing to fear but fear itself"
>

Actually, we're now finding out we had plenty to fear from FDR himself.

[Tom S.]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
om...
> Guess again....
>
> From Pres John F. Kennedy's inaugural address delivered in 1961
>
> > I would hate to be judged by the behavior of some of my relatives. If
> > you're going to hate me, hate me for my own actions, not those of
someone
> > else.
>
> but jeez the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and I haven't even
> addressed that other Kennedy who was the rapist..
>
> The Kennedy's are/were rotten to the core. Wealthy to the point that they
> didn't belive that the law was for them.

And when you look at where they GOT that wealth....

[Steve DeMoss]

I was in 6th grade. However, since the assassination of JFK occurred on
11/22/63, I still had a full day of school and went home to a regular
weekend. You're a week early, John.

I also find it interesting that we get all of these little subthreads about
Kennedy and his family and ideology and politics, and yet *nobody* noticed
that the date mentioned was in error. Does this mean that we'll have to redo
this thread next week?

Steve DeMoss
N16071
KHVC

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

[Tom S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
om...
>
> >
> > The Kennedy's are/were rotten to the core. Wealthy to the point that
they
> > didn't belive that the law was for them.
> >
>
> Well, Bobby wasn't bad. And Joe Jr. died in a very risky mission he
volunteered for.
> The biggest problem is that Joseph Kennedy was hardly the type to instill
a sound sense
> of morals in his sons.

You mean backing the Nazi's...even after being named ambassador to England
and the Battle of Britain...

[Tom S.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Icebound" > wrote in message
> .rogers.com...
> >
> > Maybe rather than blindly follow any specific "ideology", he tried to do
> > what was best for the people of his country, regardless of whether it
> > was perceived as "left", or "right".
> >
>
> Anyone who tries to to do what is best for the people of his country will
> be labelled an extreme right winger.

Like those two dudes in Europe in the 20's and 30's? How about those that
did likewise from the left...that guy with the _Little Red Book_...

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:Eqatb.2325$Dw6.16807@attbi_s02...
> Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe in
> morality and still have affairs. Many people would never stand up to the
> scrutiny that they impose on others. The Republicans found that out during
> the Clinton impeachment as Bob Livingston, Bob Barr, Dan Burton, Helen
> Chenoweth all revealed they had affairs. Newt Gingrich was rumored to have
> resigned under the same cloud.

But they didn't commit perjury to cover it and offer high paying government
jobs to keep it quiet. Also, Chenoweth didn;t have an "affair" (IMS) as she
was unmarried at the time as was her sexual partner.

>
> The point is, all of these politicians, Republican and Democrat, are quite
> likely honest people who will do a good job representing the people who
> elected them. Once they started throwing stones, however, the glass houses
> cumbled.
>
> Once again, their marraiges, sex life or other personal issues are none of
> our damn business.

Of course, the same could be said for people in the private sector, but the
same behavior cost several people millions, jail time, and forced retirement
in the case of the military.

Notice how quickly NOW shut up then and haven't opened their yaps since
regarding "Sexual Harassment"?

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:mRatb.2399$Dw6.17579@attbi_s02...
> > Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe
in
> > morality and still have affairs.
>
> Evidently your definitions of "honesty", "integrity", and "morality"
> conflict with mine. I'd be interested (though probably not on an
aviation
> newsgroup) to hear how someone can possess those attributes while at the
> same time cheating on their spouse.
>
> The mental gymnastics it would take to bring those two diametrically
opposed
> moral positions into balance would be fun to watch, if nothing else.

We'll define "if" nothing else.

[Big John]

Jay

I thought I was high man with the foot in the mouth gig?

Lately it seems like I'm shooting the gun before I cock it.

Big John

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:54:10 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> > I've only been reading this group for a few months, so I have to ask -
>is
>> > this the first time Pete's been mistaken?
>> >
>>
>> No.
>
>Well, more accurately he thought he was wrong once, but was then proved to
>be incorrect.

[Tom S.]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:w5ctb.152015$9E1.760542@attbi_s52...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>
> >
> > End result: JFK may have had some good traits as a leader -- and I don't
> > think he wasn't in office long enough to prove that assertion -- but he
was
> > not an admirable man.
>
> He was in office for nearly three years. If your leadership can't be
> proved in that amount of time then you don't have it.

And at the time he was shot, his approval rating was below 30% and it was
looking like he would not be re-elected. There's a good case that LBJ was
involved in the assassination because he wanted the office and being dumped
with JFK would have precluded him from being elected later on his own.

Like FDR, there's a lot of scholarship showing that JFK was a disaster as a
president.

[Tom S.]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> My choice for a "best" leader would be Abe Lincoln, who lead his country
> through a war and a difficult moral struggle with honesty and dignity --
> and he wasn't bad in the gift of gab department, either.

That "Abe" was honest is questionable. That he set this country on the path
to an overarching state is beyond doubt.

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Bob Noel wrote:
> >
> > In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> > consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> > valued characteristics of the best leaders.
>
> Actually, I don't want politicians who are leaders. Hitler's title was
"the
> leader". Mussolini's title was "the leader". Whatever happened to the idea
that
> the president and Congreass are *servants* of the people?
>
Collectives need leaders; individuals need self-leadership.

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:%lgtb.150479$mZ5.1024722@attbi_s54...
> You missed the point. I'm not arguing whether he was a good or bad
> president. I'm just saying that his infidelity has nothing to do with his
> political successes or failures. You make some good points regarding his
> failures, and those are appropriate to measure hs career by, not his
> personal life.
>
Actually, it ( his infidelity) did.

He was forced to cover his indiscressions and it cost him (and more
particularly the country) several times. Not to mention banging a Soviet spy
and other boneheaded moves...

[Tom S.]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> This started OT as I was flying when it happened but sure got off
> thread rapidly. Interesting subject to see how history has treated
> those involved (facts, innuendo's etc.)
>
>
> Big John
>

Well, John, is it innuendo that he was shot on Nov. 22nd, not Nov.14th ??
:~)

[Tom S.]

"Mike Rhodes" > wrote in message
...
> What the U.S. gained was LBJ managing of JFK's Asian commitments.
> But I think congress was more committed to Asia than even LBJ, who
> seemed a bit indecisive on the matter. (I'm guessing here. We were
> committed, and warned against that.) I think he had good reason to be
> indecisive.

Since LBJ's wife was a major shareholder in the transportation company
(marine shipping) that had virtually a monopoly contract to ship war
material to Vietnam...well, you can guess the rest.

[Tom S.]

"Steve DeMoss" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I was in 6th grade. However, since the assassination of JFK occurred on
> 11/22/63, I still had a full day of school and went home to a regular
> weekend. You're a week early, John.
>
> I also find it interesting that we get all of these little subthreads
about
> Kennedy and his family and ideology and politics, and yet *nobody* noticed
> that the date mentioned was in error. Does this mean that we'll have to
redo
> this thread next week?
>

Read the entire thread: about six or seven people noticed that date snafu.

[Tony Cox]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Bob Noel" wrote:
> > But I would love to discuss this with someone who thinks
> > that honesty, integrity, and moral are not important
> > characteristics of the best leaders. I am very interested in
> > what characteristics they think make the best leaders (which,'
> > of course, also wouldn't have any bearing on what actually
> > does make the best leaders...now my head hurts.)
>
> Mine too.
> Especially since what you mean by "best" is so debateable. If you mean
> "most able to sway the masses" then a great gift of gab makes a great
> leader, e.g. Adolph Hitler, Winston Churchill and Ronald Reagan (no, I'm
> not saying they are morally equivalent).
>


Churchill wasn't above a bit of whoring with his American friend
whose name I forget. His honesty was severely compromised by
having to conceal the success of the Bletchly codebreakers, leading
to many tens of thousands of deaths in the British cities which
went unprotected as a result. Such is the nature of politics.

But he _projected_ the aura of honesty and integrity in a way that
is quite remarkable. Who, friend of foe, could ever have been in
any doubt that he meant what he said in his "...fight them on the
beaches..." speech
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/churchill_audio.shtmll)?
And he wrote it himself.

Add to that good humor, intelligence, hard work to the point of
exhaustion and willingness to share the hardships of the people.
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." my arse. Its
strained grammar hurts my ears for a start, and its substance
an aftertaste of empty rhetoric.

Honesty and integrity that matter to a point, but it is the *perception*
that trumps the reality. Face it, Kennedy was lucky. If people
knew 40 years back that he was permanently on pain killers and
frequently incapacitated with his Addison's disease, perhaps this
strange personality cult would never have got started. The
thought of a strung-out junkie deciding the fate of the world from
the safety of his nuclear bunker makes me shiver. A true leader
would have excused himself -- heck, he wouldn't even have been
medically fit to fly my Cessna -- and we're just damn lucky that
today we're not all living in caves (the few of us that would have
been left).

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Tony Cox]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
> Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
> Reagan's watch.
>


I thought a "Berliner" was a type of sausage. Anyway, the picture
of an earnest JFK, waffling away in such seriousness, while the
locals tittered and guffawed must be the highpoint of his entire
presidency. Wish I'd been there.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Peter]

Tony Cox wrote:
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
>>Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
>>Reagan's watch.
>>
> I thought a "Berliner" was a type of sausage. Anyway, the picture
> of an earnest JFK, waffling away in such seriousness, while the
> locals tittered and guffawed must be the highpoint of his entire
> presidency. Wish I'd been there.

Sorry to disappoint, but I was there (attending a German "Hochschule" that
year) and heard no comments at all on the minor grammatical error from
Germans. I only saw mention of it in the American press. Any "tittering"
must have been drowned out in the loud applause and cheering in response to
that statement of his.

[Rachel Carlson]

mike regish wrote:

> So I guess you're going with the "faulty intelligence" spin, then. And you
> believe that Bush had the best interests of Iraq and the US as real reasons
> for pushing this war. After all, that's what he keeps saying now.
>
> Yeah. "Buhs" is just a paragon of virtue.
>
> OK.

And did Clinton have the best interests of Iraq and the US as real reasons when
he launched a massive offensive in Baghdad in 1998 "Operation Desert Fox"? He
certainly felt he did. And in Bosnia, when thousands were slaughtered in the
air in the guise of ending "genocide"? Or in Haiti? Or in Somalia?

Now, in Iraq, hundreds of thousands of graves HAVE been found. The torture
chambers (some of) HAVE been found. And even CNN now admits that it covered up
the torture and brutal murder it knew was going on in Iraq for a decade, so
that it could stay on Hussein's good side.

Don't take my word, Click here to hear Clinton say it in his own words:
http://tinyurl.com/67rz (small audio file)

Thank goodness we finally have a President who not only gets the message, but
takes action.

> P.S. "Buhs" is actually a pretty apt name for him, considering his party
> days.

P.S. Unlike say, Clinton's party days? Or does he count as a saint as you
bring someone's alleged personal life into the picture yourself?

[Rachel Carlson]

Montblack wrote:

> ("C J Campbell" wrote)
> <snip>
> > He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
> > Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
> > Reagan's watch.
>
> Fall of The Wall was 1989 - Bush's watch.
>
> Folks may have marched up to it on Reagan's watch, but it was Bush who was
> on station when she toppled.

Your point doesn't make sense. Nixon was on station when Apollo 11 landed on
the moon, but it is safe to "march it up" to Kennedy.

[Ron Natalie]

"Icebound" > wrote in message .rogers.com...

>
> What is it with the US policy about Cuba anyway?

We should have never given it back after the Spanish-American war :-)

[Ron Natalie]

"Tom S." > wrote in message ...

> Since LBJ's wife was a major shareholder in the transportation company
> (marine shipping) that had virtually a monopoly contract to ship war
> material to Vietnam...well, you can guess the rest.

Lady Bird was owner of the Johnson businesses in name only.

[Ron Natalie]

"Tom S." > wrote in message ...

> > The biggest problem is that Joseph Kennedy was hardly the type to instill
> a sound sense
> > of morals in his sons.
>
> You mean backing the Nazi's...even after being named ambassador to England
> and the Battle of Britain...
>
That's just the tip of the iceberg. His whole life was devoted to the advancement
of the Kennedy name in advance of all else.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Big John at
wrote on 11/14/03 7:38 AM:

> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> and was dead.
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Big John

You know, I NEVER would've guessed in a MILLION YEARS that a passing mention
of this anniversary would touch off a never-ending thread filled with
opposing ideologies, warring political philosophies and decades-old
resentments. I mean, WHAT A COMPLETE SURPRISE.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Bob Noel
at wrote on 11/14/03 11:15 AM:

> In article <md9tb.147048$mZ5.1005335@attbi_s54>, "Michael 182"
> > wrote:
>
>> Sorry, I don't see any correlation between fidelity, infidelity, and
>> public
>> service.
>
> In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> valued characteristics of the best leaders.

Where does drunk driving fit into all of that?

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:02:44 -0500, Ron Natalie wrote:

>> What is it with the US policy about Cuba anyway?
>
>We should have never given it back after the Spanish-American war :-)

At least you have a land-lease there.

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tom S. at
wrote on 11/15/03 6:56 AM:

>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Guess again....
>>
>> From Pres John F. Kennedy's inaugural address delivered in 1961
>>
>>> I would hate to be judged by the behavior of some of my relatives. If
>>> you're going to hate me, hate me for my own actions, not those of
> someone
>>> else.
>>
>> but jeez the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and I haven't even
>> addressed that other Kennedy who was the rapist..
>>
>> The Kennedy's are/were rotten to the core. Wealthy to the point that they
>> didn't belive that the law was for them.
>
> And when you look at where they GOT that wealth....

From bootlegged liquor, right? I've never seen very much wrong with that,
myself. Indeed, if many of the people in here had lived during The Dry
Years, Joseph Kennedy would likely have been their hero.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tom S. at
wrote on 11/15/03 7:05 AM:

>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:Eqatb.2325$Dw6.16807@attbi_s02...
>> Not only that, but many people are honest, have integrity, and believe in
>> morality and still have affairs. Many people would never stand up to the
>> scrutiny that they impose on others. The Republicans found that out during
>> the Clinton impeachment as Bob Livingston, Bob Barr, Dan Burton, Helen
>> Chenoweth all revealed they had affairs. Newt Gingrich was rumored to have
>> resigned under the same cloud.
>
> But they didn't commit perjury to cover it and offer high paying government
> jobs to keep it quiet. Also, Chenoweth didn;t have an "affair" (IMS) as she
> was unmarried at the time as was her sexual partner.

Incorrect. Chenoweth was snogging a married man.

This double standard always amuses me. "It's only infidelity if you lie
about it!" Reminds me of the same linguistic gymnastics Clinton himself
engaged in.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , C J Campbell at
wrote on 11/14/03 6:01 PM:

> He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
> Berliner")

The editors of several Berlin newspapers would be surprised to hear that
(Berliner Morgenpost, Berliner Zeitung, etc.). Berliner refers to a resident
of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
resides in Frankfurt. Generally, these words are only funny to non-Germans
who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> Like those two dudes in Europe in the 20's and 30's? How about those that
> did likewise from the left...that guy with the _Little Red Book_...
>

They weren't trying to do what was best for the people of their countries.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> My choice for a "best" leader would be Abe Lincoln, who lead his country
> through a war and a difficult moral struggle with honesty and dignity --
> and he wasn't bad in the gift of gab department, either.
>

Lincoln is revered for preserving the Union. But he didn't take an oath to
preserve the union, he took an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the
Constitution of the United States." In preserving the Union he trampled the
Constitution.

[Peter Duniho]

"Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message
...
> I've only been reading this group for a few months, so I have to ask - is
> this the first time Pete's been mistaken?

Yikes. Even if it were (and it's not), asking a question like that on
Usenet, you might as well just paint a big bullseye on my forehead. If I
had any common sense (and many say I don't) I'd lay low for the next few
months. :)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tony Cox wrote:
>
> I thought a "Berliner" was a type of sausage. Anyway, the picture
> of an earnest JFK, waffling away in such seriousness, while the
> locals tittered and guffawed must be the highpoint of his entire
> presidency. Wish I'd been there.

No, it's a pastry, but from the films I've seen of the occasion, any titters
were completely drowned out by the cheers and thunderous applause.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Philip Sondericker wrote:
>
> The editors of several Berlin newspapers would be surprised to hear that
> (Berliner Morgenpost, Berliner Zeitung, etc.). Berliner refers to a resident
> of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
> resides in Frankfurt.

"Ich bin Berliner" translates as "I am a Berliner". "Ich bin EIN Berliner"
translates as "I am a jelly doughnut".

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ich bin Berliner" translates as "I am a Berliner". "Ich bin EIN Berliner"
> translates as "I am a jelly doughnut".
>

Wouldn't jelly doughnut be gelee krapfen?

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:03:29 -0500, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>> The editors of several Berlin newspapers would be surprised to hear that
>> (Berliner Morgenpost, Berliner Zeitung, etc.). Berliner refers to a resident
>> of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
>> resides in Frankfurt.
>
>"Ich bin Berliner" translates as "I am a Berliner". "Ich bin EIN Berliner"
>translates as "I am a jelly doughnut".

No.

"I am a New Yorker" means that I am from New York and would not mean that I
am a fashion store ('New Yorker' is the name of a local retail chain for
clothing).

JFK said it in West-Berlin, in the high time of the cold war. That the
Berlin wall was the lesser bad thing for the US than any heavier conflict
with the countries behind the iron curtain is another story and might have
started at the meeting in Vienna with Khrushchev in 1961.

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> Wouldn't jelly doughnut be gelee krapfen?

There's a particular type of jelly doughnut that's called a Berliner.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> No.

Well, you certainly know the language much better than I.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> There's a particular type of jelly doughnut that's called a Berliner.
>

I believe Pizza Hut offered a particular pizza they called a New Yorker a
few years ago, perhaps they still do. So does "I'm a New Yorker" mean "I'm
a pizza"?

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> I believe Pizza Hut offered a particular pizza they called a New Yorker a
> few years ago, perhaps they still do. So does "I'm a New Yorker" mean "I'm
> a pizza"?

Not in English.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not in English.
>

Nor in German.

[C J Campbell]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
| in article , C J Campbell at
| wrote on 11/14/03 6:01 PM:
|
| > He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
| > Berliner")
|
| The editors of several Berlin newspapers would be surprised to hear that
| (Berliner Morgenpost, Berliner Zeitung, etc.). Berliner refers to a
resident
| of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
| resides in Frankfurt. Generally, these words are only funny to non-Germans
| who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.

OK, I confess to pulling your collective legs.

The whole Berliner gaff is actually an urban legend. "Ich bin ein Berliner"
is grammatically correct. If someone says "I am a New Yorker," you don't
automatically assume that he is claiming to be a magazine. Kennedy's speech
was reviewed by a professional translator before he gave it. So there was
not tittering and no guffaws -- what he said was right.

Nevertheless, the "gaff" has been repeated so often, even in publications
like "Time" and "Newsweek," that it has taken on a life of its own. And I
just think it is a very funny story, even if it is really unfair.

[mike regish]

Well, I'd rather have him lying to his wife than doing what Bush is doing.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2%8tb.1931$Dw6.16125@attbi_s02...
> > What does infidelity have to do with his legacy? Do you disdain
Franklin
> > Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Dwight Eisenhower as well? In fact, if you
> run
> > down the founding fathers John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and
> > Alexander Hamilton have all been accused of being adulterers. Who cares?
>
> I, for one, believe that any President should be held to the highest moral
> standards, for one simple reason:
>
> If the guy lies to his *wife*, what chance do you think WE have with him?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[mike regish]

Hope you're kidding. Even I know that one.

mike regish

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
>
> Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
>
> Pete
>
>

[mike regish]

He was never called on to commit perjury about it.

mike regish

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:
> >
> > I've never understood the reverence for JFK, his infidelity made Clinton
> > look like a abstinent monk.
>
> Yeah, but he never committed perjury about it, which is what got Clinton
> impeached.
>
> George Patterson
> If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money
prolonging
> the problem.

[Tom S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> > Since LBJ's wife was a major shareholder in the transportation company
> > (marine shipping) that had virtually a monopoly contract to ship war
> > material to Vietnam...well, you can guess the rest.
>
> Lady Bird was owner of the Johnson businesses in name only.
>

Probably. I wonder what the rules were in the early 60's regarding blind
trusts, etc., for government officials.

[Tom S.]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Big John at
> wrote on 11/14/03 7:38 AM:
>
> > 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
> > Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
> > 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
> > out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
> > frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
> > and was dead.
> >
> > May he rest in peace.
> >
> > Big John
>
> You know, I NEVER would've guessed in a MILLION YEARS that a passing
mention
> of this anniversary would touch off a never-ending thread filled with
> opposing ideologies, warring political philosophies and decades-old
> resentments. I mean, WHAT A COMPLETE SURPRISE.
>

Probably comes from the Kennedy mystique being so much fabricated myth.

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Philip Sondericker wrote:
> >
> > The editors of several Berlin newspapers would be surprised to hear that
> > (Berliner Morgenpost, Berliner Zeitung, etc.). Berliner refers to a
resident
> > of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
> > resides in Frankfurt.
>
> "Ich bin Berliner" translates as "I am a Berliner". "Ich bin EIN Berliner"
> translates as "I am a jelly doughnut".
>

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

[Tom S.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > There's a particular type of jelly doughnut that's called a Berliner.
> >
>
> I believe Pizza Hut offered a particular pizza they called a New Yorker a
> few years ago, perhaps they still do. So does "I'm a New Yorker" mean
"I'm
> a pizza"?

For all practical intents and purposes, yes.

[mike regish]

Can't blame me for Bush.

mike regish

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
> > >In most courses/seminars about leadership, surveyed people
> > >consistently believe that honesty, integrity, morality are highly
> > >valued characteristics of the best leaders.
> >
> > But we don't get the best.
>
> true enough
>
> >We get exactly what we deserve.
>
> Wrong. While we really have to blame ourselves for electing
> liars like Clinton, we don't deserve that kind of leaderhsip.
>
> --
> Bob Noel

[Dave]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
> | Well if repeated infidelity is not a problem with you,,, what about
> | abandoning a girlfriend to drown (one Kennedy) and murdering another
woman
> | (still another, younger Kennedy). They just aren't an honorable
bunch...
> |
> | By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> | country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds
like
> | something today's extreme right wingers would say....
> |
>
> In many respects JFK WAS an extreme right winger.

They are all extreme right wingers - that's what you need to be elected.
Those that fail are just not extreme enough.

[Tom S.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Like those two dudes in Europe in the 20's and 30's? How about those
that
> > did likewise from the left...that guy with the _Little Red Book_...
> >
>
> They weren't trying to do what was best for the people of their countries.
>
They said they were. Are you a mindreader?

[Tom S.]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:1Pztb.163672$ao4.531554@attbi_s51...
> Well, I'd rather have him lying to his wife than doing what Bush is doing.
>

Childish shot there, dude.

[Tom S.]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:9Rztb.162494$275.501323@attbi_s53...
> Hope you're kidding. Even I know that one.
>
> mike regish

And how much more?
>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> > > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
> >
> > Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
>
>

[mike regish]

How so. Lying to the country and getting hundreds of American servicemen and
women and thousands of innocent Iraqis killed is somehow less offensive to
you than not wanting to get caught fooling around?

Funny how guys like you can twist reality to fit your ideals and then accuse
the rest of doing the very same.

mike regish
"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:1Pztb.163672$ao4.531554@attbi_s51...
> > Well, I'd rather have him lying to his wife than doing what Bush is
doing.
> >
>
> Childish shot there, dude.
>
>

[mike regish]

I know you voted for Bush and are a staunch republican and about as far to
the right as one can get.

You probably also listen to Rush Libaugh.

Pretty close?

mike regish

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:9Rztb.162494$275.501323@attbi_s53...
> > Hope you're kidding. Even I know that one.
> >
> > mike regish
>
> And how much more?
> >
> > "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what
your
> > > > country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
> > >
> > > Um. Wrong three-initial president. Try FDR.
> > >
> > > Pete
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:W_ztb.162594$275.501518@attbi_s53...
>
> Can't blame me for Bush.
>

Nobody can be blamed for Bush.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> They said they were.
>

But they weren't.


>
> Are you a mindreader?
>

No.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:zcAtb.162711$275.501857@attbi_s53...
>
>How so. Lying to the country and getting hundreds of American servicemen
and
> women and thousands of innocent Iraqis killed is somehow less offensive to
> you than not wanting to get caught fooling around?
>

Buhs did not lie to the country. Thousands of innocent Iraqis have been
saved.

[mike regish]

So I guess you're going with the "faulty intelligence" spin, then. And you
believe that Bush had the best interests of Iraq and the US as real reasons
for pushing this war. After all, that's what he keeps saying now.

Yeah. "Buhs" is just a paragon of virtue.

OK.

mike regish

P.S. "Buhs" is actually a pretty apt name for him, considering his party
days.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:zcAtb.162711$275.501857@attbi_s53...
> >
> >How so. Lying to the country and getting hundreds of American servicemen
> and
> > women and thousands of innocent Iraqis killed is somehow less offensive
to
> > you than not wanting to get caught fooling around?
> >
>
> Buhs did not lie to the country. Thousands of innocent Iraqis have been
> saved.
>
>

[John Gaquin]

"Tom S." > wrote in message news:1Yztb.111
>
> Probably comes from the Kennedy mystique being so much fabricated myth.

Gee, d'ya think maybe Philip was being facetious? Duh?

[Jim Weir]

I was in a German class at the time of this happening. My professor was from a
Berlin suburb. As I recall, his comment was that Kennedy simply mispronounced
the word.

I don't know which was which at this late date, but...

Ich bin ein BerlEEner was one thing

and

Ich bin ein BerlIINer was another.

One meant a resident of Berlin. The other was a local slang for "jelly donut".
Again, I say that it is not perfect German, but local slang.

Jim



->
->No, it's a pastry, but from the films I've seen of the occasion, any titters
->were completely drowned out by the cheers and thunderous applause.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:oCAtb.164117$ao4.533047@attbi_s51...
>
> So I guess you're going with the "faulty intelligence" spin, then.
>

Clearly your messages are the product of faulty intelligence.

[Tom S.]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message news:1Yztb.111
> >
> > Probably comes from the Kennedy mystique being so much fabricated myth.
>
> Gee, d'ya think maybe Philip was being facetious? Duh?
>
Nah!! That's a myth as well.

[Tom S.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > They said they were.
> >
>
> But they weren't.
>
>
> >
> > Are you a mindreader?
> >
>
> No.
>
Then how do you know their motives were different than what they actually
said?

[Montblack]

Homie wrote:
He did claim to be a jelly donut (literal translation of "Ich bin ein
Berliner"), but the wall that went up on his watch came down on the hated
Reagan's watch.

I pointed out that it wasn't Reagan who was on watch when The Berlin Wall
fell - he had already been relieved of duty. It was Bush's watch that saw
The Berlin Wall fall.

If Homie had written [the wall] came down as a result of 8 years of pressure
applied by the hated Reagan administration ....bla, bla, bla, then I
wouldn't have had issue with his statement.

As far as my point not making sense, you are wrong. It made perfect sense.
Your example makes sense also - it just isn't applicable to the replay I
posted to Homie's JFK message.

--
Montblack

"Rachel Carlson" <
> Your point doesn't make sense. Nixon was on station when Apollo 11 landed
on
> the moon, but it is safe to "march it up" to Kennedy.

[jim rosinski]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote:

> By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds like
> something today's extreme right wingers would say....

Probably true. Consider also economist Milton Friedman's variant of this quote:

"A truly free man asks neither what his country can do for him, nor what he
can do for his country".

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

[jim rosinski]

Bob Fry > wrote:

> JFK simply didn't get much done. But he was studly and that's what
> counts in the world.

He was instrumental in preventing World War III. He started the
Vietnam War. He started the space program. If this doesn't count as
"getting much done", then I don't know what does.

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

[Montblack]

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
> I believe Pizza Hut offered a particular pizza they called a New Yorker a
> few years ago, perhaps they still do. So does "I'm a New Yorker" mean
"I'm
> a pizza"?


These posts are starting to make me hungry.

I'll take a Subway, washed down with a Manhattan

....and a big apple for dessert.

--
Montblack

[Montblack]

("jim rosinski" wrote)
> He was instrumental in preventing World War III.

Yup.

>He started the Vietnam War.


Truman did, when he supported France's pre-war colonial claims. This after
the Vietnamese army, almost single-handedly, held back, and eventually
defeated, the invading Japanese.

One of Vietnam's first (post war) requests to the US was for copies of the
Declaration of Independence, our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Ho Chi
Minh was pro-America in 1945. We turned him away when he came to us. That
was the *start* of the Vietnam War.


>He started the space program.


He energized the space program...
He set a national goal for the space program...
He pushed for new funds for the space program ...
He reinvigorated the space program with imagination ...

Space program was already in place. Moon program gets Kennedy's stamp.

http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j052561.htm#sound

--
Montblack

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tom S. at
wrote on 11/15/03 4:57 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...

>> You know, I NEVER would've guessed in a MILLION YEARS that a passing
>> mention
>> of this anniversary would touch off a never-ending thread filled with
>> opposing ideologies, warring political philosophies and decades-old
>> resentments. I mean, WHAT A COMPLETE SURPRISE.
>>
>
> Probably comes from the Kennedy mystique being so much fabricated myth.

No, it comes from the first rule of Usenet--I argue, therefore I am.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Montblack at
wrote on 11/15/03 9:44 PM:

> ("jim rosinski" wrote)

>> He started the space program.
>
>
> He energized the space program...
> He set a national goal for the space program...
> He pushed for new funds for the space program ...
> He reinvigorated the space program with imagination ...
>
> Space program was already in place. Moon program gets Kennedy's stamp.
>
> http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j052561.htm#sound

I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
were located in Texas. He also helped keep the Apollo program alive after
the fire, when a whole lot of influential people wanted it scrapped.

[Mike Rhodes]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:56:10 -0700, "Tom S." >
wrote:

>
>"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>> "Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>>
>> > Since LBJ's wife was a major shareholder in the transportation company
>> > (marine shipping) that had virtually a monopoly contract to ship war
>> > material to Vietnam...well, you can guess the rest.
>>
>> Lady Bird was owner of the Johnson businesses in name only.
>>
>
>Probably. I wonder what the rules were in the early 60's regarding blind
>trusts, etc., for government officials.
>
>

For the record, to clarify my initial reply, I would not defend LBJ
politically, or Lady Bird. (I am not a democrat.) I was only trying
to point out the inherent weakness in the Asian commitment. As a
congressman who had a reputation as being pushy to get his way, Viet
Nam seems to be more of somebody else's war, (McNamara's, and the
military's), not his.

A blind trust was a notable factor in burying us into Viet Nam?
Mentioned in this newsgroup? That's a joke, right? But it might
actually clarify reasons for being indescisive. How much blood money
does one really need?

It may be a bit silly to give full credit to Jacqueline. But I've had
enough of JFK, a long time ago. I don't see it all, and I'm not
surprised that I don't. _I've seen no personality from him._ We
cried for JFK because we were told to, because we were of the type
back then who could still cry. Those are the sorrows, both of them.

Mike

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 01:15:11 GMT, mike regish wrote:

>How so. Lying to the country and getting hundreds of American servicemen and
>women and thousands of innocent Iraqis killed is somehow less offensive to
>you than not wanting to get caught fooling around?

You have to understand that this is all for a better world. We are all
fighting for the freedom of the US and the western world, esp. we are
alltogether fighting terrorism and Al Quaida. All those brave soldiers died
while defending *your* country (while you had the privilege of staying at
home). They saved (!) _your_ ass while fighting those terrorists.
Civilization and humanitarian aid is brought to the people of Iraq, without
the help of the US and their allies there would be hunger and slavery (and
terrorism, of course). It seems that you are not with us. This intends that
you are with the terrorists. Uuhmm, I think I have to check my medication
....


[i]
>mike regish

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 01:31:07 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>Thousands of innocent Iraqis have been
>saved.

Saved from what? From beeing hit by allied bombs?

It is said that by summer 2004 the troops should leave and Iraq should have
its own government. I bet 1:100 that there comes up the same mess than
everywhere else (except Europe) where western allies left after messing up
the area.

BTW: there is *still* war in Iraq. Peace has not been declared, so the
allies still can keep the POW imprisoned. (Heck, I bet they would keep them
imprisoned while declaring peace).

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:26:50 -0500, Rachel Carlson wrote:

>Thank goodness we finally have a President who not only gets the message, but
>takes action.

He's the president of the USA, not from Iraq nor from the whole world. Your
boundaries are clearly printed on the globe. Mess around _*within*_ these
boundaries.

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> It is said that by summer 2004 the troops should leave and Iraq should
> have
> its own government. I bet 1:100 that there comes up the same mess than
> everywhere else (except Europe) where western allies left after messing
> up
> the area.

yeah, post-war Europe was paradise.

--
Bob Noel

[Mike Rhodes]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 02:55:11 -0600, Mike Rhodes
> wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:56:10 -0700, "Tom S." >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>>>
>>> "Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> > Since LBJ's wife was a major shareholder in the transportation company
>>> > (marine shipping) that had virtually a monopoly contract to ship war
>>> > material to Vietnam...well, you can guess the rest.
>>>
>>> Lady Bird was owner of the Johnson businesses in name only.
>>>
>>
>>Probably. I wonder what the rules were in the early 60's regarding blind
>>trusts, etc., for government officials.
>>
>>
>
>For the record, to clarify my initial reply, I would not defend LBJ
>politically, or Lady Bird. (I am not a democrat.) I was only trying
>to point out the inherent weakness in the Asian commitment. As a
>congressman who had a reputation as being pushy to get his way, Viet
>Nam seems to be more of somebody else's war, (McNamara's, and the
>military's), not his.
>
>A blind trust was a notable factor in burying us into Viet Nam?
>Mentioned in this newsgroup? That's a joke, right? But it might
>actually clarify reasons for being indescisive. How much blood money
>does one really need?
>
>It may be a bit silly to give full credit to Jacqueline. But I've had
>enough of JFK, a long time ago. I don't see it all, and I'm not
>surprised that I don't. _I've seen no personality from him._ We
>cried for JFK because we were told to, because we were of the type
>back then who could still cry. Those are the sorrows, both of them.
>
>Mike
>

I am a Reppublican, ("but" or "therefore") am against the venture
capitol in Iraq. Accusing Lady Bird is silly, except to screw up an
argument.

Also, the activists of the civil rights battles of the 60's probably
found the Viet Nam distraction useful, if not crucial; regardless of
McGovern's policies. Who would say they wanted Viet Nam? Except
imperialistic, communist killing (in other countries, we're all
Americans here, (after that McCarthy)) conservatives? Oh, if they had
minded our home instead!

U.S. activity in Iraq is active imperialism, to save the Iraqis and
make a 'safe' area in the mid-east. It's quite a risk, I think. Too
much. Doing so only increases our susceptibility to terrorism. The
Arabs, (crazy or no), have a point, in hating our interference. It is
natural, and a big sacrifice (to the point of one's real manhood) to
accept it. Why keep them around, anyway?

[Jay Honeck]

> We
> cried for JFK because we were told to, because we were of the type
> back then who could still cry. Those are the sorrows, both of them.

We cried for many reasons.

I cried because I was five years old, and everyone around me was crying, and
I was scared.

Many cried for Jackie's anguish. And bravery.

Many cried at the sheer horror of seeing (in their mind's eye -- the
Zapruder film wouldn't be made public for years) a man's head blown apart on
a public street.

Many cried because they knew intuitively that the event marked a turning
point in our history, a loss of innocence. Never again would we see our
President as "one of us" -- rather, he would be made "one of them",
protected from "us" behind bullet-proof glass.

Never again could we look at political crowds in the same way, knowing that
there would always be Oswalds lurking in the shadows, with rifles. Because
of the lunatics and *******s amongst us, we would see no more top hats in
open carriages.

The national mourning for JFK that resonates till today had very little to
do with the man himself, IMHO.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
> were located in Texas. He also helped keep the Apollo program alive after
> the fire, when a whole lot of influential people wanted it scrapped.

I think LBJ helped to keep it alive, but saw it largely as yet another
"make-work" Federal project for his home state.

It was Congress that voted the funds for Apollo, in part because of the
national resonance of the martyred JFK's "to the moon by the end of this
decade" speech.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Montblack at
> wrote on 11/15/03 9:44 PM:
>
> > ("jim rosinski" wrote)
>
> >> He started the space program.
> >
> >
> > He energized the space program...
> > He set a national goal for the space program...
> > He pushed for new funds for the space program ...
> > He reinvigorated the space program with imagination ...
> >
> > Space program was already in place. Moon program gets Kennedy's stamp.
> >
> > http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j052561.htm#sound
>
>

[mike regish]

At least they're not from a lack of it.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:oCAtb.164117$ao4.533047@attbi_s51...
> >
> > So I guess you're going with the "faulty intelligence" spin, then.
> >
>
> Clearly your messages are the product of faulty intelligence.
>
>

[mike regish]

Funny thing is, there was a letter to the editor in our local paper a few
weeks ago that quoted Buhs the senior on why he wouldn't go into Iraq. It
described/predicted exactly the situation now. You'd think junior would at
least listen to dad.

Takes action myass. He wanted this war for oil and business. He doesn't give
a flying fig about the Iraqi people. The inspectors were going in. This war
is unnecessary. The stern threat was probably necessary to get the
inspectors in, but once they were, Buhs had no reason to wage this war
beyond the almighty dollar. Even Rummy said that if we didn't find weapons
in "x" months, which have long passed, we would have a credibility problem.

And we do-except for those who refuse to face reality.

mike regish

"Rachel Carlson" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>
> > So I guess you're going with the "faulty intelligence" spin, then. And
you
> > believe that Bush had the best interests of Iraq and the US as real
reasons
> > for pushing this war. After all, that's what he keeps saying now.
> >
> > Yeah. "Buhs" is just a paragon of virtue.
> >
> > OK.
>
> And did Clinton have the best interests of Iraq and the US as real reasons
when
> he launched a massive offensive in Baghdad in 1998 "Operation Desert Fox"?
He
> certainly felt he did. And in Bosnia, when thousands were slaughtered in
the
> air in the guise of ending "genocide"? Or in Haiti? Or in Somalia?
>
> Now, in Iraq, hundreds of thousands of graves HAVE been found. The
torture
> chambers (some of) HAVE been found. And even CNN now admits that it
covered up
> the torture and brutal murder it knew was going on in Iraq for a decade,
so
> that it could stay on Hussein's good side.
>
> Don't take my word, Click here to hear Clinton say it in his own words:
> http://tinyurl.com/67rz (small audio file)
>
> Thank goodness we finally have a President who not only gets the message,
but
> takes action.
>
> > P.S. "Buhs" is actually a pretty apt name for him, considering his party
> > days.
>
> P.S. Unlike say, Clinton's party days? Or does he count as a saint as you
> bring someone's alleged personal life into the picture yourself?
>

[John Gaquin]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> We cried for many reasons.
>

Nicely put.

[jim rosinski]

"Montblack" > wrote:


>>[JFK] started the Vietnam War.
>
> Truman did, when he supported France's pre-war colonial claims. This after
> the Vietnamese army, almost single-handedly, held back, and eventually
> defeated, the invading Japanese.
>
> One of Vietnam's first (post war) requests to the US was for copies of the
> Declaration of Independence, our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Ho Chi
> Minh was pro-America in 1945. We turned him away when he came to us. That
> was the *start* of the Vietnam War.

Thanks for the informative historical perspective! But to me
"starting a war" requires sending troops, which I believe began on
JFK's watch.

>> He started the space program.
>
> He energized the space program...
> He set a national goal for the space program...
> He pushed for new funds for the space program ...
> He reinvigorated the space program with imagination ...
>
> Space program was already in place. Moon program gets Kennedy's stamp.

Good points.

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

[Andrew Gideon]

Montblack wrote:

> ("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
>> I believe Pizza Hut offered a particular pizza they called a New Yorker a
>> few years ago, perhaps they still do. So does "I'm a New Yorker" mean
> "I'm
>> a pizza"?
>
>
> These posts are starting to make me hungry.
>
> I'll take a Subway, washed down with a Manhattan
>
> ...and a big apple for dessert.
>

Have an "American" for dessert: it was my favorite cookie (?) as a kid,
although we called them "black & whites". My Dad's the one that really
made out, though: we all cut them in half and gave him the white sides.

- Andrew

[David CL Francis]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 at 19:52:09 in message
>, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>But I would love to discuss this with someone who thinks
>that honesty, integrity, and moral are not important characteristics
>of the best leaders. I am very interested in what characteristics
>they think make the best leaders (which, of course, also wouldn't
>have any bearing on what actually does make the best leaders...
>now my head hurts.)

This is way off topic.

But, I believe that there are many different kinds of leaders and those
suited to one task are not necessarily suited to another. A great leader
of an aircraft design team might be useless as a leader of soldiers or
running a big government department.

Regarding qualities of morality, honesty and integrity perhaps those
qualities are not unnecessary, but that just doing the job causes most
people to lose them. As we are all human (an assumption) anyone may
occasionally slip from their own standards of honesty and integrity even
though people operate from quite different base lines. Perhaps the
growth of ego and self importance follows from the corrupting nature of
power - which is not a new thought.

Some people can influence others strongly by the sheer strength of their
personalities. Personal experience has certainly showed me that there is
nothing more debilitating to any organisation than the strong
personality that is just plain wrong.

Perhaps no one who craves power can be trusted to use it?
--
David CL Francis

[Tom S.]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
> were located in Texas.

LBJ, as probably the most corrupt president in our history, had it built in
Texas to pork barrel his buddies. That is pretty much beyond doubt.

>He also helped keep the Apollo program alive after
> the fire, when a whole lot of influential people wanted it scrapped.

Ditto above.

[Tom S.]

"Mike Rhodes" > wrote in message
...
> >Probably. I wonder what the rules were in the early 60's regarding blind
> >trusts, etc., for government officials.
>
> For the record, to clarify my initial reply, I would not defend LBJ
> politically, or Lady Bird. (I am not a democrat.) I was only trying
> to point out the inherent weakness in the Asian commitment. As a
> congressman who had a reputation as being pushy to get his way, Viet
> Nam seems to be more of somebody else's war, (McNamara's, and the
> military's), not his.

The military was against the war from the beginnings in the EARLY 60's.
McNamara ran it into the ground, but it was LBJ's war.
>
> A blind trust was a notable factor in burying us into Viet Nam?

Excuse me?

[Tom S.]

"Mike Rhodes" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 02:55:11 -0600, Mike Rhodes
> > wrote:
> I am a Reppublican, ("but" or "therefore") am against the venture
> capitol in Iraq. Accusing Lady Bird is silly, except to screw up an
> argument.

Talking to yourself?

> Also, the activists of the civil rights battles of the 60's probably
> found the Viet Nam distraction useful, if not crucial; regardless of
> McGovern's policies. Who would say they wanted Viet Nam? Except
> imperialistic, communist killing (in other countries, we're all
> Americans here, (after that McCarthy)) conservatives? Oh, if they had
> minded our home instead!
>
> U.S. activity in Iraq is active imperialism, to save the Iraqis and
> make a 'safe' area in the mid-east. It's quite a risk, I think. Too
> much. Doing so only increases our susceptibility to terrorism. The
> Arabs, (crazy or no), have a point, in hating our interference. It is
> natural, and a big sacrifice (to the point of one's real manhood) to
> accept it. Why keep them around, anyway?

Hey, only one person at a time can post in here while intoxicated. Get to
the back of the line.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tom S. at
wrote on 11/16/03 1:06 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
>> were located in Texas.
>
> LBJ, as probably the most corrupt president in our history, had it built in
> Texas to pork barrel his buddies. That is pretty much beyond doubt.

Right. Hence my statement that it was no coincidence.

>> He also helped keep the Apollo program alive after
>> the fire, when a whole lot of influential people wanted it scrapped.
>
> Ditto above.

Yep, it was pork barrel alright. That's why it gets LBJ's stamp. Get it?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> Then how do you know their motives were different than what they actually
> said?
>

I don't give a rat's ass about their motives or their statements. Their
actions indicate they weren't trying to do what was best for the people of
their countries.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"jim rosinski" > wrote in message
om...
>
> He was instrumental in preventing World War III. He started the
> Vietnam War. He started the space program. If this doesn't count as
> "getting much done", then I don't know what does.
>

The space program was started on Ike's watch.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>
> Saved from what?
>

From Saddam.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:eNMtb.162590$mZ5.1115214@attbi_s54...
>
> At least they're not from a lack of it.
>

You are clearly not an intelligent person.

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:41:36 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>The whole Berliner gaff is actually an urban legend. "Ich bin ein Berliner"
>is grammatically correct.

I speak fluent German. What he said was, nominally, "I'm a jelly
donut". I bought them fresh in the Zurich Migros every week. One of my
roommates, a Berliner himself, confirmed it.

>So there was
>not tittering and no guffaws -- what he said was right.

Supportive Berliners knew what he meant, knew he was an American, knew
he was reaching out, and they all translated the gaffe into "Ich bin
Berliner", and cheered until their lungs contained only vacuum.

It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
solidarity with them.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Rachel Carlson]

Martin Hotze wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:26:50 -0500, Rachel Carlson wrote:
>
> >Thank goodness we finally have a President who not only gets the message, but
> >takes action.
>
> He's the president of the USA, not from Iraq nor from the whole world. Your
> boundaries are clearly printed on the globe. Mess around _*within*_ these
> boundaries.

Isolationism set the stage for many larger wars in the end, including World War
II. Funny how the Japanese airplanes visited Pearl Harbor during USA's
isolationist stage.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Robert Perkins wrote:
>
> It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
> visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
> solidarity with them.

I found that to be the case when I visited Bavaria. I well remember trying to
find the tour bus in Bayreuth. My brother and I were half lost, so I stopped a
young lady in a business suit (how they negotiate cobbled streets in 4" heels
is beyond me). I excused myself and said in my atrocious accent "Wo ist die
neuer schloss?"

There are at least three grammatical errors in those five words. Her eyebrows
went up in astonishment at the butchery I was doing to her language. She started
to smile, realized that that would be rude, and wiped it away, and then politely
told me (as near as I can tell) to continue another block, turn left, and it
would be on the right. I thanked her and we followed her directions. Found the
bus too.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[Rachel Carlson]

mike regish wrote:

> Funny thing is, there was a letter to the editor in our local paper a few
> weeks ago that quoted Buhs the senior on why he wouldn't go into Iraq. It
> described/predicted exactly the situation now. You'd think junior would at
> least listen to dad.

At the end of World War I, the Treaty of Versailles was signed, which put
conditions on Germany rebuilding its military. When Germany later began
rebuilding its military and building concentration camps, England ignored it.
France ignored it. And even USA ignored it. The stage for a much greater war
was set.

At the end of the Gulf War in 1991, a cease fire was signed, with Saddam
Hussein's Iraq agreeing to conditions of not building certain weapons. Yet he
did, and even the UN admitted that he was not living up to his cease fire.
Thus the cease fire was void.

History repeats itself for those who never learn from it.

>
>
> Takes action myass. He wanted this war for oil and business.

Huh? We don't need to go to Iraq to get oil. Are you saying that we went to
Afghanistan "for oil" too?

> He doesn't give
> a flying fig about the Iraqi people.

His actions show otherwise.

> The inspectors were going in. This war
> is unnecessary.

The inspectors hadn't been in for over half a decade. Why did they suddenly go
back? The threat of force was the ONLY reason Hussein was going to let them in
at all, even as he was hiding his programs.


> The stern threat was probably necessary to get the
> inspectors in,

It's obvious that they were not going anywhere without credible threat of force,
because they didn't go anywhere without a credible threat of force. .

> but once they were, Buhs had no reason to wage this war
> beyond the almighty dollar. Even Rummy said that if we didn't find weapons
> in "x" months, which have long passed, we would have a credibility problem.

Do tell us what x really is. Speaking of credibility problem, you seem to have
no problem with Clinton's brutual bombing of Baghdad in 1998, the strikes in
1995, the Belgrade calamities caused by bombing in 1999, the bloody excursions
in Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia. But whenever there was terrorism (World Trade
Center bombing 1993, Cole Bombing, US Embassy bombings, and so on), there was no
response except the message that America will not respond.

> And we do-except for those who refuse to face reality.

Don't take my word, Click here to hear Clinton say it in his own words:
http://tinyurl.com/67rz (small audio file)

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:01:42 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>Presidents are elected on TV appeal, and JFK was prettier than Nixon. He
>was a dangerous playboy with a penchant for international mischief, but
>he had sex appeal that America couldn't resist - still can't.

Shocking as it might be too all the Boomers out there, *this* gen-Xer
would really like it, now that the geopolitical situation is very
different, if people would leave JFK to the history books and, y'know,
move on.

He was just zis guy, you know?

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Rachel Carlson]

Martin Hotze wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 01:31:07 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> >Thousands of innocent Iraqis have been
> >saved.
>
> Saved from what? From beeing hit by allied bombs?

From a regime which filled barrels with the chopped off ears of those just
accused of infidelity to the regime while wives and children were raped. But
those were the lucky ones, by the accounts that the Wall Street Journal has
reported. Perhaps where you are from, placing pins in the eyes of "dissidents"
is standard practice not worthy of being saved from. But I don't think so.

[Robert Perkins]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:27:03 GMT, Martin Hotze >
wrote:

>It is said that by summer 2004 the troops should leave and Iraq should have
>its own government. I bet 1:100 that there comes up the same mess than
>everywhere else (except Europe) where western allies left after messing up
>the area.

ISTR that Germany has still got foreign troops on its soil.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:42:03 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> wrote:

>Berliner refers to a resident
>of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
>resides in Frankfurt. Generally, these words are only funny to non-Germans
>who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.

Germans simply don't form the sentence that way. The article "ein" is
superfluous in the context of identifying with a group.

Ich bin Sizilianerin.
Er ist Schweizer.
Sie sind Oesterreicher.

That's conversational German. Using the indefinite article would just
never come up in a spoken conversation, and I have participated in a
*lot* of German conversations.

You might hear the *definite* article from time to time, but it will
almost always come with a name, in the case of self-identification.

"Ich bin der Berliner, John Kennedy", and so forth.

(In the case of third person pejorative references you might not get a
name. "Er ist der Schwule da drueben," and so forth.)

Hearing "Ich bin ein Schweizer" or anything like that is akin to
hearing a non English speaker say "I go today to get milk at store."
The English speaker would use gerunds.

Rob, who knows what he's talking about

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:55:20 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't jelly doughnut be gelee krapfen?
>
>There's a particular type of jelly doughnut that's called a Berliner.

Just for the record, that'll be a fruit-filled yeast fried pastry,
without a hole, topped when hot with granulated sugar and left to
cool. They're pretty good, but like most European bread products
aren't soaked in preservatives, so they go really stale within about
15 hours of preparation.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

**sigh**

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:17:16 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>> Not in English.
>Nor in German.

Doch auf Deutsch. Der Indefinitivartikel "ein" wird in so einem Satz
einfach nicht gefunden. "Ich bin Berliner" toent richtig. "Ich bin ein
Berliner" hoert sich komisch aus.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:56:50 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>Martin Hotze wrote:
>>
>> No.
>
>Well, you certainly know the language much better than I.

Don't bet on it.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:13:46 -0700, "Keith McQueen" >
wrote:

>>> May he rest in peace.
>> Today is November 14, 2003. JFK was shot and killed on November 22, 1963.
>Yeah. On November 22, 1963,

.... my mother was 13 years old. She doesn't dwell on the Kennedy's at
all. Why should anyone?

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:37:09 GMT, Robert Perkins
> wrote:

>Don't bet on it.

I just occured to me that that might not be a fair thing to say
without some context.

"Don't bet on it." No educated German or Austrian I've met knew German
grammar rules as well as someone who had studied the German language
as a native English speaker. English speakers have to learn German
grammar, since English grammar has fewer formal rules than German.
It's our *spelling* rules which take the cake.

But if what Martin means is that "Ich bin ein Berliner", in the
context of a political speech to a cheering crowd, is just as
understandable as "Ich bin Berliner", then he's right to say it's
correct stuff, since the discrepancy is so mind-bogglingly meaningless
that it's hard to believe I've written as much about it as I have.

IMO, Kennedy's enemies kept this one alive, probably only to embarrass
him. The Germans forgave him for being American before the word
"Berliner" was fully uttered.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:59:57 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>My brother and I were half lost, so I stopped a
>young lady in a business suit (how they negotiate cobbled streets in 4" heels
>is beyond me).

With precision. How else? (Some stereotypes are dead-on accurate; IMO
this is one of them.)

>I excused myself and said in my atrocious accent "Wo ist die
>neuer schloss?"

!! Oy. ;-)

Um, and, you forgot to capitalize the americanized 'r' sound in
'neuer'.

:-D

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Peter]

Robert Perkins wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:42:03 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Berliner refers to a resident
>>of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
>>resides in Frankfurt. Generally, these words are only funny to non-Germans
>>who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.
>
>
> Germans simply don't form the sentence that way. The article "ein" is
> superfluous in the context of identifying with a group.
>
> Ich bin Sizilianerin.
> Er ist Schweizer.
> Sie sind Oesterreicher.
>
> That's conversational German. Using the indefinite article would just
> never come up in a spoken conversation, and I have participated in a
> *lot* of German conversations.
>
> You might hear the *definite* article from time to time, but it will
> almost always come with a name, in the case of self-identification.
>
> "Ich bin der Berliner, John Kennedy", and so forth.

True, but other situations where the article will appear is for emphasis
and when the term is not meant literally. For example, if I were a
politician, I would identify myself saying "Ich bin Politiker" but if
someone felt that I was acting in a politically motivated way they might
well say "Da bisst du ja ein Politiker." The latter phrase could be
translated as "You're acting like a politician." In Kennedy's case, either
of these could be justification for the inclusion of the article since he
was both emphasizing the unique nature of Berliners at the time and he
certainly wasn't speaking literally.

In any event, the phrasing is clearly not due to Kennedy directly but to
Robert Lochner, his interpreter who was educated in Berlin. And Kennedy
rehearsed the line with Willy Brandt (then Berlin mayor) just prior to his
speech. Apparently Willy saw nothing wrong with the phrasing. See:
<http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=urbanlegends&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2F%7Enewgenerati on%2Fberliner.htm>

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Robert Perkins at
wrote on 11/16/03 7:31 PM:


>
> Hearing "Ich bin ein Schweizer" or anything like that is akin to
> hearing a non English speaker say "I go today to get milk at store."
> The English speaker would use gerunds.


But you'd still know what that non-English speaker was talking about,
wouldn't you? That's why all these posts arguing about whether or not
Kennedy really said "jelly donut" are so silly. Everybody KNEW what he
meant.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Robert Perkins at
wrote on 11/16/03 7:53 PM:

> The Germans forgave him for being American before the word
> "Berliner" was fully uttered.
>
> Rob

I think foreigners are so astonished whenever an American can utter more
than two words of their native language that they automatically forgive
minor grammatical errors.

[Mike Rhodes]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:07:13 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>We cried for many reasons.
>
>I cried because I was five years old, and everyone around me was crying, and
>I was scared.
>
>Many cried for Jackie's anguish. And bravery.
>
>Many cried at the sheer horror of seeing (in their mind's eye -- the
>Zapruder film wouldn't be made public for years) a man's head blown apart on
>a public street.
>
>Many cried because they knew intuitively that the event marked a turning
>point in our history, a loss of innocence. Never again would we see our
>President as "one of us" -- rather, he would be made "one of them",
>protected from "us" behind bullet-proof glass.
>
>Never again could we look at political crowds in the same way, knowing that
>there would always be Oswalds lurking in the shadows, with rifles. Because
>of the lunatics and *******s amongst us, we would see no more top hats in
>open carriages.
>
>The national mourning for JFK that resonates till today had very little to
>do with the man himself, IMHO.

Jay,
I am your age, less one year, and remember it as you, though not
as well as you.
As you said, when the story was told afterwards, it was the
bullet-proof glass which came after and separated us from our leaders
that cost us. (But why such dangerous politics?) We -did- hurt over
that, but I think there was more. We cried (we were shocked!) because
a king _was_ killed. We thought he was our king because we were a
'we' then, (or thought we were), and then in the following years we
weren't us anymore.
We thought he was our king, but he was not. He was their's, and
even now they continue to pretend as if he were our's, as if that were
even possible. That's part of the reason why there was trouble,
though it wasn't ours in the making -- unless we could be blamed for
his killing, for establishing them in office in the first place. But
could we be blamed for killing their king? (I write that believing it
were the commies who got to him, not 'us'. They had the grudge then.)
The question I haven't answered is who are 'they?' Those who
demand civil rights, where such rights (and most everything else) were
not of their own making, and could not have been.

.... Give credit where credit is due, and don't allow them to take it.
.... Ownership by demand is simply theft.
.... <R-A-C-I-S-M>, (look at it!) It cannot 'just go away.'

------------------------------------

Off-topic, back to on-topic...
I read this newsgroup almost everyday, though rarely posting. I do
have plans, but not yet a flyer. I read it because I am interested in
flight, but that would not keep me here. (It is not for it's in-depth
coverage of political issues. :') RAP is the clearest in
communication, most personable newsgroup at least that I'm aware of.
I like it, a lot. (But please keep those occasional Kennedy floods to
a minimum. I know, it isn't 'your' group. But at times it does seem
that way.)

Thanks,
Mike

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
>
> **sigh**

You've missed the point. It's not about language, it's about logic.

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Tom S." >
writes:

>
>"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
>> I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
>> were located in Texas.
>
>LBJ, as probably the most corrupt president in our history, had it built in
>Texas to pork barrel his buddies. That is pretty much beyond doubt.
>

That LBJ was at least the 2nd most corrupt President is probably true, and it
is also probably true that Mission Control was located in TX as pork.

But my NASA buddies (I am working about a mile from Langley at this moment)
tell me that LBJ's passion for the space program was genuine and that he was
responsible for persuading Kennedy to adopt the stated goal of the moon
landing in a decade.

It is probably the only noble thing he ever did.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Michael 182]

He signed the Civil Rights Act 1n 1964. That ranks pretty high on list of
noble deeds.

Michael


"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Tom S."
>
> writes:

> That LBJ was at least the 2nd most corrupt President is probably true, and
it
> is also probably true that Mission Control was located in TX as pork.
>
> But my NASA buddies (I am working about a mile from Langley at this
moment)
> tell me that LBJ's passion for the space program was genuine and that he
was
> responsible for persuading Kennedy to adopt the stated goal of the moon
> landing in a decade.
>
> It is probably the only noble thing he ever did.
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Robert Perkins]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:26:00 +0100, Martin Hotze
> wrote:

>> ISTR that Germany has still got foreign troops on its soil.
>
>well, this is Germans business. Their treaties might forbid to dismiss foreign
>troops. But maybe it is a good deal for the Germans (economical speaking). All
>those thousands of soldiers need to spend their money somewhere.

It's better than that. It means that Germany need not field a large
defense force, (I know it has one, but it's not the size of the old
Wehrmacht, I'm sure) and thus spares itself the cost of that force.
Guns 'n' Butter: they're making butter first, and left most of the
guns in the hands of NATO and the U.S.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:14:12 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> wrote:

>But you'd still know what that non-English speaker was talking about,
>wouldn't you? That's why all these posts arguing about whether or not
>Kennedy really said "jelly donut" are so silly. Everybody KNEW what he
>meant.

Yeah. I said as much in a followup post. Suffice to say I paid a visit
to the "W.C." after typing much of this.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:28:11 +0100, Martin Hotze
> wrote:

>Robert Perkins > wrote:
>
>> "Ich bin Berliner" toent richtig. "Ich bin ein
>> Berliner" hoert sich komisch aus.
>
>IBTD.

Doch! (IMO, natuerlich!)

FTR, an expression like "He went to bat for Charlie and I" also sounds
real funny. Grammatically correct doesn't make it colloquial.
Colloquial doesn't make it grammatically correct.

Rob, will mince languages for food

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Wdtabor]

In article <gV5ub.221915$HS4.1935369@attbi_s01>, "Michael 182"
> writes:

>
>He signed the Civil Rights Act 1n 1964. That ranks pretty high on list of
>noble deeds.
>

Yeah, and when he signed it, he said the Democrat Party would *own* the black
vote for the next hundred years. In spite of the fact that the Civil Rights Act
was passed with more Republican support than Democrat.

There is nothing noble about a cynical politcal manuever.



--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Andrew Gideon]

Robert Perkins wrote:

> IMO, Kennedy's enemies kept this one alive, probably only to embarrass
> him. The Germans forgave him for being American before the word
> "Berliner" was fully uttered.

I thought I'd been taught this story to help ameliorate what I do to the
German language.

- Andrew

[David Brooks]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight
operations
> > were located in Texas.
>
> LBJ, as probably the most corrupt president in our history, had it built
in
> Texas to pork barrel his buddies. That is pretty much beyond doubt.

Until JFK died, NASA was building in Massachusetts. One completed building,
in Kendall Square, Cambridge, became a DOT building.

The pork just moved with the Presidency.

-- David Brooks

[Big John]

Comment on postings.

This is the longest thread I've ever seen on r.a.h. It started with me
flying during the event so was on thread for r.a.h.

Don't know if the length is good or bad?

Houston Chronicle has a big spread on front page every day (I'm
assuming they will continue until the 22nd?)

Interesting event in history for those of us who lived at that time
and saw what happened in the media, Congress and every other place.

Big John


On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:38:22 -0600, Big John >
wrote:

>40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>and was dead.
>
>May he rest in peace.
>
>Big John

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Robert Perkins wrote:
> >
> > It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
> > visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
> > solidarity with them.
>
> I found that to be the case when I visited Bavaria. I well remember trying
to
> find the tour bus in Bayreuth. My brother and I were half lost, so I
stopped a
> young lady in a business suit (how they negotiate cobbled streets in 4"
heels
> is beyond me). I excused myself and said in my atrocious accent "Wo ist
die
> neuer schloss?"
>
> There are at least three grammatical errors in those five words. Her
eyebrows
> went up in astonishment at the butchery I was doing to her language. She
started
> to smile, realized that that would be rude, and wiped it away, and then
politely
> told me (as near as I can tell) to continue another block, turn left, and
it
> would be on the right. I thanked her and we followed her directions. Found
the
> bus too.
>
Should have said "Wo bis der Bahnhof".

[mike regish]

ROTFLMAO.

You really have gone off the deep end. I used to actually have a little
respect for you.

Get help...soon.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:eNMtb.162590$mZ5.1115214@attbi_s54...
> >
> > At least they're not from a lack of it.
> >
>
> You are clearly not an intelligent person.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:dRcub.227742$Tr4.672735@attbi_s03...
>
> ROTFLMAO.
>
> You really have gone off the deep end. I used to actually have a little
> respect for you.
>
> Get help...soon.
>

So I've lost the respect of an ignorant fool. I'm okay with that.

[mike regish]

"Rachel Carlson" > wrote in message
...
> Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 01:31:07 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> >
> > >Thousands of innocent Iraqis have been
> > >saved.
> >
> > Saved from what? From beeing hit by allied bombs?
>
> From a regime which filled barrels with the chopped off ears of those just
> accused of infidelity to the regime while wives and children were raped.
But
> those were the lucky ones, by the accounts that the Wall Street Journal
has
> reported. Perhaps where you are from, placing pins in the eyes of
"dissidents"
> is standard practice not worthy of being saved from. But I don't think
so.


>
So they started all this right after 9/11/01, right?

And that was the reason for the war, right? It had nothing to do with the
WTC or WMD's at all, did it. We were just using thiose reasons to cover up
our humanitarian side, huh?

mike regish

[mike regish]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rachel Carlson" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: JFK



>
> >
> >
> > Takes action myass. He wanted this war for oil and business.
>
> Huh? We don't need to go to Iraq to get oil. Are you saying that we went
to
> Afghanistan "for oil" too?

No. We went to Afghanistan to get Osama. We went to Iraq because we didn't.
>
> > He doesn't give
> > a flying fig about the Iraqi people.
>
> His actions show otherwise.

How. By bombing the crap out of them. How can he claim surgical strike
capability when he's dropping thousands of bombs a day.

>
> > The inspectors were going in. This war
> > is unnecessary.
>
> The inspectors hadn't been in for over half a decade. Why did they
suddenly go
> back?

Because Buhs had to divert attention from the fact that he couldn't get
Osama.

> The threat of force was the ONLY reason Hussein was going to let them in
> at all, even as he was hiding his programs.

See below.
>
>
> > The stern threat was probably necessary to get the
> > inspectors in,
>
> It's obvious that they were not going anywhere without credible threat of
force,
> because they didn't go anywhere without a credible threat of force.

Nor, evidently, were they going anywhere at all. Talk about unrestricted
access. Where are the WMD's and don't give me any crap about saving the F
ing Iraqis in your answer.


>
> > but once they were, Buhs had no reason to wage this war
> > beyond the almighty dollar. Even Rummy said that if we didn't find
weapons
> > in "x" months, which have long passed, we would have a credibility
problem.


>
> Do tell us what x really is.

I believe x=6. I don't record every word these people say. I have better
things to do.


Speaking of credibility problem, you seem to have
> no problem with Clinton's brutual bombing of Baghdad in 1998, the strikes
in
> 1995, the Belgrade calamities caused by bombing in 1999, the bloody
excursions
> in Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia. But whenever there was terrorism (World Trade
> Center bombing 1993, Cole Bombing, US Embassy bombings, and so on), there
was no
> response except the message that America will not respond.

And you do seem to have a problem with them. Why is it that anything Clinton
did was impeachable, but Buhs can do no wrong?
>
> > And we do-except for those who refuse to face reality.
>
> Don't take my word, Click here to hear Clinton say it in his own words:
> http://tinyurl.com/67rz (small audio file)

Seems Bill was wrong here. Even with nobody watching, he never rebuilt his
arsenal, did he?
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> I thought I'd been taught this story to help ameliorate what I do to the
> German language.

Nothing can ameliorate what *I* do to the German language.

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Tom S." wrote:
>
> Should have said "Wo bis der Bahnhof".

Well, that wouldn't have helped us, since the bus was parked in front of the
"New Palace".

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Big John at
wrote on 11/17/03 1:08 PM:

> Comment on postings.
>
> This is the longest thread I've ever seen on r.a.h. It started with me
> flying during the event so was on thread for r.a.h.
>
> Don't know if the length is good or bad?
>
> Houston Chronicle has a big spread on front page every day (I'm
> assuming they will continue until the 22nd?)
>
> Interesting event in history for those of us who lived at that time
> and saw what happened in the media, Congress and every other place.
>
> Big John

John, your original post (quoted below) was eloquent and genuine. Only on
Usenet would a simple, heartfelt sentiment such as "May he rest in peace"
provoke such an onslaught as we've seen.

I'd be curious to see how many of the people currently railing against
Kennedy were also complaining about the "hatchet job" on Saint Ronald
Reagan. I guess only some presidents are fair game.

>
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:38:22 -0600, Big John >
> wrote:
>
>> 40 years ago today I was ferrying a F-89J from the Maine Air Guard at
>> Bangor, ME to the Oregon Air Guard at Portland OR. Chugging along at
>> 20K, keeping under the big jet stream blowing east, I was about 150
>> out of Oklahoma City, my next refueling stop, when ATC came up on
>> frequency and announced that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas
>> and was dead.
>>
>> May he rest in peace.
>>
>> Big John
>

[Michael 182]

FWIW, I've enjoyed this thread, and evidently a lot of others did as well.
R.A.P. seems to survive an occasional off-topic thread just fine.

Michael

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> John, your original post (quoted below) was eloquent and genuine. Only on
> Usenet would a simple, heartfelt sentiment such as "May he rest in peace"
> provoke such an onslaught as we've seen.

[Robert Perkins]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:38:32 +0100, Martin Hotze
> wrote:

>> It's better than that. It means that Germany need not field a large
>> defense force,
>
>
>would Germany _*NEED*_ a larger defense force without NATO or the US?

Until Europe is more united than it is now, yes. EU member nations
haven't given up their national military forces in favor of a common
defense force.

>well, not the stupiedst of ideas one can have. :-)

Of course. But only if you can get the thugs to play along.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Frank]

Rachel Carlson wrote:


> Thank goodness we finally have a President who not only gets the message,
> but takes action.

It's just a shame that the only message he "gets" comes from the oil
industry.

--
Frank....H

[David Brooks]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:38:32 +0100, Martin Hotze
> > wrote:
>
> >> It's better than that. It means that Germany need not field a large
> >> defense force,
> >
> >
> >would Germany _*NEED*_ a larger defense force without NATO or the US?
>
> Until Europe is more united than it is now, yes. EU member nations
> haven't given up their national military forces in favor of a common
> defense force.

I was going to point out that having the states' economies so interdependent
is a powerful disincentive, in terms of pure self-interest, to make war, so
we needn't worry about independent armies so much.

Then I remembered what happened in the US in 1861.

-- David Brooks

[Robert Perkins]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:19:21 -0600, Frank >
wrote:

>Rachel Carlson wrote:
>
>
>> Thank goodness we finally have a President who not only gets the message,
>> but takes action.
>
>It's just a shame that the only message he "gets" comes from the oil
>industry.

That's a point I just don't get. The Texas oil industry stands to lose
its shirt if the market is flooded with cheap Iraqi oil, since more
supply equals a lower price.

Not correct?

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:05:02 -0800, "David Brooks"
> wrote:

>I was going to point out that having the states' economies so interdependent
>is a powerful disincentive, in terms of pure self-interest, to make war, so
>we needn't worry about independent armies so much.
>
>Then I remembered what happened in the US in 1861.

I think the States were all on an agreed upon gold standard at the
time; there was no other economic union beyond the constitutional
prohibition on interstate tariffs. The reason we all could do that to
one another back then was that Virginians and New Yorkers thought of
themselves as Virginians and New Yorkers first, and Americans second.
Robert E. Lee's decision, for one example.

The situation is still somewhat similar in Europe today. The Euros
think of themselves as French, Danish, German, Austrian, English,
Scottish, etc, first, and only then as Europeans. NATO mitigates that
a bit, but I think that's only with the 800-lb gorilla (U.S.) in the
alliance, and if that dissolves, then factionalism in Europe, in the
form of nationalism, could become more than the barely suppressed
problem it is today.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[G.R. Patterson III]

Robert Perkins wrote:
>
> That's a point I just don't get. The Texas oil industry stands to lose
> its shirt if the market is flooded with cheap Iraqi oil, since more
> supply equals a lower price.

Yep. Here's an excerpt from an article published in the NY Times early this
year.

A War for Oil? Not This Time February 13, 2003
By MAX BOOT

For that matter, would our government really want a steep drop in prices? The
domestic oil patch - including President Bush's home state, Texas - was
devastated in the 1980's when prices fell as low as $10 a barrel. Washington is
generally happy with a range of $18 to $25 a barrel, about where oil was before
the strikes in Venezuela and jitters about Iraq helped push prices over $34 a
barrel. If we were really concerned about cheap oil above all, we'd be sending
troops to Caracas, not Baghdad.

The other possible economic advantage in Iraq would be for American companies
to win contracts to put out fires, repair refineries and help operate the oil
industry, as they did in Kuwait. What's the total value of such work? It's
impossible to say, but last year Iraq signed a deal with Russian companies
(since canceled by Saddam Hussein) to rebuild oil and other industries, valued
at $40 billion over five years.

Yet the White House estimates the military operation alone would cost $50
billion to $60 billion. (Others suggest the figure would be far higher.) And
rebuilding of the country's cities, roads and public facilities would cost $20
billion to $100 billion more, with much of that money in the initial years
coming from the "international community" (read: Uncle Sam).

Thus, if a capitalist cabal were running the war, it would have to conclude it
wasn't a paying proposition.

This doesn't mean that oil is entirely irrelevant to the subject of Iraq. It
does matter in one very important way: Oil revenues make Saddam Hussein much
more dangerous than your run-of-the-mill dictator, because they give him the
ability to build not only palaces but also top-of-the-line weapons of mass
destruction.

Americans recognize this. Europeans don't. Why not? Here's my theory: Europeans
are projecting their own behavior onto us. They know that their own foreign
policies have in the past often been driven by avarice - all those imperialists
after East Indian spices or African diamonds. (This tradition is going strong
today in Russia and France, whose Iraq policies seem driven at least in part by
oil companies that were granted lucrative concessions by Saddam Hussein.)

Nobody would claim that America's global intentions have always been entirely
pure. Still, our foreign policy - from the Barbary war to Kosovo - has usually
had a strain of idealism at which the cynical Europeans have scoffed. In the
case of Iraq, they just can't seem to accept that we might be acting for, say,
the general safety and security of the world. After more than 200 years, Europe
still hasn't figured out what makes America tick.

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Gary Mishler" > wrote in message
news:jWftb.200844$Tr4.578204@attbi_s03...
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Nope. JFK. I've seen the newsclip at least 20 times in my life.
>
> Correct. It's from his inaugural address. I was in 2nd grade I bet I've
> seen in 50+ times since then.

I'm British, wasn't born then, and even I've seen it a few times! :-)

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

I keep saying that no one who wants to be a politician
should be allowed to become one.

Paul

"David CL Francis" > wrote in message
...
> Perhaps no one who craves power can be trusted to use it?

[Paul Sengupta]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> Reminds me of the same linguistic gymnastics Clinton himself
> engaged in.

Cunning-linguistics? I thought it was he who...

Ahem, never mind.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

Does the cow still think so during the birth of the calf though?
Or does she curse him and tell him it's all his fault? :-)

Paul

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:38:12 -0500, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> >Maybe not, but the last time I heard a politico refer to serving the
people was
> >many, many years ago. Of course, lots of them do provide service, in the
same
> >sense that a bull provides it to a cow.
>
> at least it is a good thing for a cow to get srewed. :-)

[Paul Sengupta]

Jam doughnut, sometimes with icing and a cherry on.
They have nice ones in Dusseldorf railway station.

Paul

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I thought a "Berliner" was a type of sausage.

[Paul Sengupta]

Makes me regret not buyin a Berliner now when in Dusseldorf
railway station on Sunday. I was there, I walked to the shop, then
decided it was too sweet and that I didn't really want one after all.
Damn.

Paul

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> These posts are starting to make me hungry.

[Paul Sengupta]

Was he really from Berlin?

Paul

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> what he said was right.

[Paul Sengupta]

Yes there is!

Paul
:-)

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> No, it comes from the first rule of Usenet--I argue, therefore I am.
>
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Andrew Gideon]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

> Thus, if a capitalist cabal were running the war, it would have to
> conclude it wasn't a paying proposition.

The author is wrong...and badly so. Embarassingly so, I'd hope, unless the
article was deliberately deceptive.

I won't address the truth of these assertions; I lack that information.

However, his conclusion above silently assumes that those paying for the
war, reconstruction, etc. are the same as those accruing the benefit from
the aforementioned contracts. This need not be the case. The war etc. is
funded by taxpayers; the contracts reward shareholders of specific
companies.

A pure capitalist among the shareholder population would be perfectly happy
with this arrangement.

- Andrew

[Montblack]

("Paul Sengupta" wrote)
> > Reminds me of the same linguistic gymnastics Clinton himself
> > engaged in.
>
> Cunning-linguistics? I thought it was he who...
>
> Ahem, never mind.


The guy still cracks me up - so to speak.

(clipped from the web)
Just as one small example of how far Clinton went to avoid the truth, in the
portions of President Clinton's January 17 deposition that have been made
public in the Paula Jones case, his memory failed him 267 times. This is a
list of his answers followed by a number that indicates how many times he
gave each one.

I don't remember - 71
I don't know - 62
I'm not sure - 17
I have no idea - 10
I don't believe so - 9
I don't recall - 8
I don't think so - 8
I don't have any specific recollection - 6
I have no recollection - 4
Not to my knowledge - 4
I just don't remember - 4
I don't believe - 4
I have no specific recollection - 3
I might have - 3
I don't have any recollection of that - 2
I don't have a specific memory - 2
I don't have any memory of that - 2
I just can't say - 2
I have no direct knowledge of that - 2
I don't have any idea - 2
Not that I recall - 2
I don't believe I did - 2
I can't remember - 2
I can't say - 2
I do not remember doing so - 2
Not that I remember - 2
I'm not aware - 1
I honestly don't know - 1
I don't believe that I did - 1
I'm fairly sure - 1
I have no other recollection - 1
I'm not positive - 1
I certainly don't think so - 1
I don't really remember - 1
I would have no way of remembering that - 1
That's what I believe happened - 1
To my knowledge, no - 1
To the best of my knowledge - 1
To the best of my memory - 1
I honestly don't recall - 1
I Honestly Don't Know'
I honestly don't remember - 1
That's all I know - 1
I don't have an independent recollection of that - 1
I don't actually have a independent memory of that - 1
As far as I know - 1
I don't believe I ever did that - 1
That's all I know about that - 1
I'm just not sure - 1
Nothing that I remember - 1
I simply don't know - 1
I would have no idea - 1
I don't know anything about that - 1
I don't have any direct knowledge of that - 1
I just don't know - 1
I really don't know - 1
I can't deny that I did, I just - I have no memory of that at all - 1

--
Montblack

[mike regish]

Gee, I bet no republican can beat that.

And I bet no democrat ever wasted as much time counting them.

mike regish

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Paul Sengupta" wrote)
> > > Reminds me of the same linguistic gymnastics Clinton himself
> > > engaged in.
> >
> > Cunning-linguistics? I thought it was he who...
> >
> > Ahem, never mind.
>
>
> The guy still cracks me up - so to speak.
>
> (clipped from the web)
> Just as one small example of how far Clinton went to avoid the truth, in
the
> portions of President Clinton's January 17 deposition that have been made
> public in the Paula Jones case, his memory failed him 267 times. This is
a
> list of his answers followed by a number that indicates how many times he
> gave each one.
>
> I don't remember - 71
> I don't know - 62
> I'm not sure - 17
> I have no idea - 10
> I don't believe so - 9
> I don't recall - 8
> I don't think so - 8
> I don't have any specific recollection - 6
> I have no recollection - 4
> Not to my knowledge - 4
> I just don't remember - 4
> I don't believe - 4
> I have no specific recollection - 3
> I might have - 3
> I don't have any recollection of that - 2
> I don't have a specific memory - 2
> I don't have any memory of that - 2
> I just can't say - 2
> I have no direct knowledge of that - 2
> I don't have any idea - 2
> Not that I recall - 2
> I don't believe I did - 2
> I can't remember - 2
> I can't say - 2
> I do not remember doing so - 2
> Not that I remember - 2
> I'm not aware - 1
> I honestly don't know - 1
> I don't believe that I did - 1
> I'm fairly sure - 1
> I have no other recollection - 1
> I'm not positive - 1
> I certainly don't think so - 1
> I don't really remember - 1
> I would have no way of remembering that - 1
> That's what I believe happened - 1
> To my knowledge, no - 1
> To the best of my knowledge - 1
> To the best of my memory - 1
> I honestly don't recall - 1
> I Honestly Don't Know'
> I honestly don't remember - 1
> That's all I know - 1
> I don't have an independent recollection of that - 1
> I don't actually have a independent memory of that - 1
> As far as I know - 1
> I don't believe I ever did that - 1
> That's all I know about that - 1
> I'm just not sure - 1
> Nothing that I remember - 1
> I simply don't know - 1
> I would have no idea - 1
> I don't know anything about that - 1
> I don't have any direct knowledge of that - 1
> I just don't know - 1
> I really don't know - 1
> I can't deny that I did, I just - I have no memory of that at all - 1
>
> --
> Montblack
>
>

[Robert Perkins]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:19:06 +0100, Martin Hotze
> wrote:

>Robert Perkins > wrote:
>
>> The situation is still somewhat similar in Europe today. The Euros
>> think of themselves as French, Danish, German, Austrian, English,
>> Scottish, etc, first, and only then as Europeans.
>
>
>it is becoming better. and it is rushing compared to the time we had.

Not completely clear what you mean by "it is rushing", but I agree
that it's becoming better. Nothing like neighbors different from
oneself to teach one the truth about one's neighbors, etc.

>> NATO mitigates that
>> a bit, but I think that's only with the 800-lb gorilla (U.S.) in the
>
>IBTD, some countries (and even more by jan 1st 2004) are not NATO members.

All you need is a critical mass, plus the superpower in the alliance.
Personall I haven't heard about any countries withdrawing from NATO.
The most likely candidate seems to be France, but even then I see no
evidence of it; France knows the benefits of military alliance with
its three largest neighbors.

And as Heinlein put it, politics is vastly superior to war.

>well, we had only about 50 years time. for this short of time we did a rather
>good job, IMHO.

Have a care that it doesn't become a false dawn. Austrians I know were
still fond of singing "Deutschland, Deutschland, ohne alles!" as late
as 1990. One of them, a tradesman, went around grousing about how much
Austria was better while he was in Switzerland.

All it'll take is a shortage.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[David CL Francis]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 at 15:42:49 in message
>, Paul Sengupta
> wrote:

>I keep saying that no one who wants to be a politician
>should be allowed to become one.
>
And I thought I invented that phrase!

>"David CL Francis" > wrote in message
...
>> Perhaps no one who craves power can be trusted to use it?
>

--
David CL Francis

[Mike Rhodes]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:16:21 -0600, Mike Rhodes
> wrote:

<snip>

> .... That's part of the reason why there was trouble,
>though it wasn't ours in the making -- unless we could be blamed for
>his killing, for establishing them in office in the first place. But
>could we be blamed for killing their king? (I write that believing it
>were the commies who got to him, not 'us'. They had the grudge then.)

Why Was JFK killed?

JFK was out the Fighting Irish family. He was glory-seeking and
confrontational. (Like some people I know.) That is what killed us.
And that is likely what killed him.
The fights that came to us, including the Cuban Missile Crisis,
were of his own making. In a sense, he was McCarthy reprised,
world-wide. I hate communism, think it is insanity. But he bit off
more than he could chew, and was willing up front to risk our peace to
do it. The Russian missiles in Cuba were a response to JFK's missiles
near their territory. (I heard some reporter explain that a few years
ago, but only heard this once; and I'm not surprised at the why's.)
And what the hell was he doing going into the jungle of Viet Nam?!
Imperialism, the >glory< thereof. It's our business to keep the world
at peace, and if we gotta knock heads (anywhere) to clear the world's
perspective then so be it. But the jungle war that followed, that had
to be expected, (so near China), was nonsensical on its face.
Being confrontational, just for the apparent glory of it, is by
its nature asking for a return. JFK was puffed up by the
circumstances he created. Lee Harvey Oswald probably killed him in
order to pop that balloon. He killed a facade.

Just after the WTC collapse, I saw President Bush make his visit to
Ground Zero. What I saw was a big smile that wouldn't go away, except
by force; the smile of someone getting the fight he always wanted.
(Must be out of that typical Fighting Kraut family.) But I saw
insanity on that face, and nothing has changed since the insanity of
that election.

Mike

[John Gaquin]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
>
> By the way,,, think about that famous JFK quote... "Ask not what your
> country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Sounds like
> something today's extreme right wingers would say....

If the notion of service and sacrifice in the public benefit, of
participation in a cause far greater than one's self alone, is the province
of the "extreme right wingers", then I say we need more of them.

The fact is that if JFK were to emerge alive from the ether tomorrow,
ignorant of the events of the last forty years, and were to look around at
the writings and policies of the major parties, with no names or faces to
guide him, he would be welcomed by and feel at home with any group of
republicans, be considered a moderate, and wonder to himself "where the
hell are all the Democrats, and how in God's name did the Socialist Party
get so strong in only forty years"?

JG

[John Gaquin]

Perhaps "...not too far removed..." in a casual reading, but light years
distant in underlying premise.

"Tom S." > wrote in message news:R0rtb.13
> >
> Indeed, JFK's quote is not too far removed from this one:
>
> "Thus state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the
> conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly
> human culture..." Adolf Hitler, _Mein_Kampf_
>
> (IOW; the collective and service to the state over the individual and the
> government as servant, not the master).

[John Gaquin]

I'd venture that *everyone* noticed the discrepancy, but only a few thought
the error noteworthy. Sort of like spelling correkshuns, y'no?

"Tom S." > wrote in message news:4yrtb.33> >
>
> Read the entire thread: about six or seven people noticed that date snafu.
>
>