Flying w/faulty gas gauge

[Yossarian]

I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
around with it for a while to no effect.

Would you fly this airplane?

[Ron Natalie]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message . ..
> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc.

On the ground? Usually they don't start behaving that way until you are
in flight. Something is definitely wrong.

> Would you fly this airplane?

Not if the FAA was watching.

[Jim Weir]

->I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
->flight.

The function of a fuel gauge in a Cessna is to tell whether or not the master
switch is on.

->
->Would you fly this airplane?
->

If the mechanic said the gauge was OK (just to cover my butt) and since I don't
use the gauge to determine anything anyway, I'd go. If the gauge fails and the
FAA finds it on a ramp check, "Gee, the mechanic fixed it and it worked just
fine until ten seconds ago."

Jim



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Yossarian at
wrote on 11/15/03 9:36 AM:

> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.
>
> Would you fly this airplane?

Since we are taught from day 1 of our flight lessons to never trust the gas
gauge anyway, what difference does it make?

[Yossarian]

Practically it makes no difference for the reason you state. But because
the fuel gauge is required equipment technically you would be flying
illegally.

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Yossarian at
> wrote on 11/15/03 9:36 AM:
>
> > I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
VFR
> > flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right
gauge
> > was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to
zero,
> > bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> > around with it for a while to no effect.
> >
> > Would you fly this airplane?
>
> Since we are taught from day 1 of our flight lessons to never trust the
gas
> gauge anyway, what difference does it make?
>

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Yossarian at
wrote on 11/15/03 11:03 AM:

> Practically it makes no difference for the reason you state. But because
> the fuel gauge is required equipment technically you would be flying
> illegally.

Gotcha.

BTW, I wasn't suggesting I'd fly with a faulty gauge.

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Yossarian at
>> wrote on 11/15/03 9:36 AM:
>>
>>> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
> VFR
>>> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right
> gauge
>>> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to
> zero,
>>> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
>>> around with it for a while to no effect.
>>>
>>> Would you fly this airplane?
>>
>> Since we are taught from day 1 of our flight lessons to never trust the
> gas
>> gauge anyway, what difference does it make?
>>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message ...

> Since we are taught from day 1 of our flight lessons to never trust the gas
> gauge anyway, what difference does it make?

91.205 says you have to have them.

[Dave]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Since we are taught from day 1 of our flight lessons to never trust the
gas
> > gauge anyway, what difference does it make?
>
> 91.205 says you have to have them.

Depends whether you feel the gas gauge is there to give you a definite
answer as to your gas state or an opinion.

From what you say its opinion is that you have anything from empty to full.
Seems ok to me.

[Roger Tracy]

Yes. I go by tach time anyway and can peg fuel consumption
pretty close.


"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. ..
> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.
>
> Would you fly this airplane?
>
>

[ArtP]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:40:58 -0600, "Roger Tracy"
> wrote:

>Yes. I go by tach time anyway and can peg fuel consumption
>pretty close.

Spoken like a high winger. For us low wing types we have to know how
much fuel is in each tank. Since climb, cruise, and descent all use
different amounts of fuel it is hard to know how much is left in each
tank. Sooner or later we come to the point when the POH says switch to
the fullest tank. We need the gauges to know which one that is.

[Angus Davis]

Yossarian wrote:

>I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
>flight.
>
Per the FARs, your gauges were functional. The only requirement is that
when the tanks are empty, the gauges read empty. If they show full when
the tanks are 1/4 full, that is not a problem in so far as the FARs are
concerned. Repeating, the only regulatory requirement is for gauges to
be accurate when the tanks are empty. That's why you should pay little
attention to them at all, and do your fuel calculations with diligence.
-angus

[Ron Natalie]

"ArtP" > wrote in message ...
> Sooner or later we come to the point when the POH says switch to
> the fullest tank.
You always know which one is fullest after you run one dry.

[Ron Natalie]

"Angus Davis" > wrote in message ...
> Yossarian wrote:
>
> >I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
> >flight.
> >
> Per the FARs, your gauges were functional. The only requirement is that
> when the tanks are empty, the gauges read empty.

Sorry, the FARs don't say that. The FARs don't say anything about accuracy.
The much misattributed FAR about them being empty just says that the E mark
means zero usable.

> If they show full when
> the tanks are 1/4 full, that is not a problem in so far as the FARs are
> concerned.

91.205 says you must have operational guages. In this case the guage is NOT operating
the way it was designed. If the thing is really bouncing between 0 and Full on the ground
there is something seriously wrong. Not only is it hardly legal, I'd really question what
was going on.

> Repeating, the only regulatory requirement is for gauges to
> be accurate when the tanks are empty.

Repeating, you are wrong.

> That's why you should pay little
> attention to them at all, and do your fuel calculations with diligence.

Yeah and I have had two close friends who have put airplanes into off airport landings
because they decided not to look at the gauges. You should take the pessimistic
approach of always believing the gauges if they tell you that there is less fuel than
you predict by your preflight planning, but not if they tell you that there is more!

[Yossarian]

91.205 For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and
equipment are required:

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr91_00.html



"Angus Davis" > wrote in message
...
> Yossarian wrote:
>
> >I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
VFR
> >flight.
> >
> Per the FARs, your gauges were functional. The only requirement is that
> when the tanks are empty, the gauges read empty. If they show full when
> the tanks are 1/4 full, that is not a problem in so far as the FARs are
> concerned. Repeating, the only regulatory requirement is for gauges to
> be accurate when the tanks are empty. That's why you should pay little
> attention to them at all, and do your fuel calculations with diligence.
> -angus
>

[Jim Weir]

I have heard this repeated for quite a while, and I can't find the pertinent
section of the aircraft certification regs. Would you mind posting the chapter
and verse where I can find this requirement?

Jim


The only requirement is that
->when the tanks are empty, the gauges read empty. If they show full when
->the tanks are 1/4 full, that is not a problem in so far as the FARs are
->concerned.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Tony Cox]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Angus Davis" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > Per the FARs, your gauges were functional. The only requirement is that
> > when the tanks are empty, the gauges read empty.
>
> Sorry, the FARs don't say that. The FARs don't say anything about
accuracy.
> The much misattributed FAR about them being empty just says that the E
mark
> means zero usable.
>
> > If they show full when
> > the tanks are 1/4 full, that is not a problem in so far as the FARs are
> > concerned.
>
> 91.205 says you must have operational guages. In this case the guage is
NOT operating
> the way it was designed. If the thing is really bouncing between 0 and
Full on the ground
> there is something seriously wrong. Not only is it hardly legal, I'd
really question what
> was going on.
>


Well, I'd certainly want to know why a gauge was flicking
around, but being pedantic (as I would be if called on it
by the FAA), how am I to know if my gauges are operational?

For that, I'd go to my POH for guidance. My POH tells me
that my fuel gauges should read 'red line' when there is no
fuel in the tank. It says nothing else. So I'd argue that I could
reasonably conclude my gauges were just fine if they showed
full when in actual fact they were only 1/4 full. And since
the FAR's insist I operate my plane consistently with the
POH & flight supplements, I'd claim regulatory backing for
this position.


--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Ron Natalie]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message ...
> I have heard this repeated for quite a while, and I can't find the pertinent
> section of the aircraft certification regs. Would you mind posting the chapter
> and verse where I can find this requirement?
>
> Jim
>

It doesn't say that. 23.1337 says the guage must be calibrated (but doesn't give any specific
accuracy). The part that people keep passing around by is the (1), but they ignore the fact
that it comes after "In Addition" . The empty pronouncement just says that the bottom mark
is supposed to be zero usable as opposed to bone dry:

(b) Fuel quantity indication. There must be a means to indicate to the flightcrew members the quantity of
usable fuel in each tank during flight. An indicator calibrated in appropriate units and clearly marked to
indicate those units must be used. In addition:
(1) Each fuel quantity indicator must be calibrated to read "zero" during level flight when the quantity of
fuel remaining in the tank is equal to the unusable fuel supply determined under § 23.959(a);

[mike regish]

It's only requirement is that it reads empty when the tank is empty. Got a
watch? That's a hell of a lot better gas gage than that thing on the panel.

mike regish

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. ..
> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.
>
> Would you fly this airplane?
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Well, I'd certainly want to know why a gauge was flicking
> around, but being pedantic (as I would be if called on it
> by the FAA), how am I to know if my gauges are operational?

Per the FAR, if they show the amount of fuel in the tank, they are
operational. If they don't, they aren't. It's not rocket science. If you
have gauges that show full tanks even when they are only 1/4 full, the
gauges are not in compliance with the relevant regulation.

> For that, I'd go to my POH for guidance. My POH tells me
> that my fuel gauges should read 'red line' when there is no
> fuel in the tank. It says nothing else.

Just because the POH only describes your "red line" for the zero fuel point,
that doesn't mean there aren't additional requirements for accuracy.

Pete

[mike regish]

Two watches will do that. Or a double timer like I use.

mike regish

"ArtP" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:40:58 -0600, "Roger Tracy"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yes. I go by tach time anyway and can peg fuel consumption
> >pretty close.
>
> Spoken like a high winger. For us low wing types we have to know how
> much fuel is in each tank. Since climb, cruise, and descent all use
> different amounts of fuel it is hard to know how much is left in each
> tank. Sooner or later we come to the point when the POH says switch to
> the fullest tank. We need the gauges to know which one that is.
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Angus Davis wrote:
>
> Per the FARs, your gauges were functional. The only requirement is that
> when the tanks are empty, the gauges read empty.

That's not true. The FARs require that the gauges "show the quantity of fuel
in each tank". If that gauge reads 1/4 tank when the tank is full, it's not
showing the quantity in the tank.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[EDR]

In article >, Yossarian
> wrote:

> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.

I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
the tank is empty.

> Would you fly this airplane?

If you have visually checked the fuel quantity and know approximately
what your fuel burn is, (you do fly by your watch don't you?) you
should be good to go.
I was going to say that my Champ doesn't have a gauge, but then I
remembered there is and I think it is off a Model A Ford. Of course, in
a Cub it is just a wire in a cork sticking up through the cap.

[G.R. Patterson III]

mike regish wrote:
>
> It's only requirement is that it reads empty when the tank is empty.

Nope. The requirement is that the gauge show the quantity of fuel in the tank.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[Ron Natalie]

"mike regish" > wrote in message news:R%xtb.161414$275.497496@attbi_s53...
> Two watches will do that. Or a double timer like I use.

There are a number of reasons why you might be using fuel FASTER than you
are timing it. Let me tell you a few stories.

A few years ago we got the Navion back from annual. The IA had signed off on it, and
another A&P, Margy, and I put the plane back together. The A&P and I took it up for a
test flight and after immediately opened her up to inspect for leaks and all looked good.
The next morning we take off for Oshkosh with Margy in the left seat. She's negotiating
with Approach for FF and a Class B clearance. I'm looking at the fuel guage and thinking
"I'm pretty sure I topped the thing off, but we're down gas." I tell Margy and I tell I'll keep
an eye on it. As it is, we've got over 80 gallons left on board. The downward trend continues.
Just at this time approach calls back with oru clearance. We're about midway between
two airports, we tell Dulles that we're going to Leesburg, they offer assistance.

Get down on the ground, find a mechanic, find that a fuel line is loose and spraying fuel
all over the inside of the engine compartment. I do a quick calculation and determine that
we have used 20 gallons in a 20 minute flight. That is 60 GPH!

Another long time rec.aviator put his Cardinal down on a road because he ran out of fuel
due to a higher than predicted fuel burn. Was found that his carburator was leaking.

Another rec.aviator ran out of fuel IFR. Nobody yet knows what happened, but he ran
out way ahead of what preflight planning predicted.

****ty as your average light plane fuel guages are, they are NOT superfluous.

[Ron Natalie]

"EDR" > wrote in message ...

> I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
> the tank is empty.

You keep saying this, but it's not true.

> Of course, in
> a Cub it is just a wire in a cork sticking up through the cap.

Works better than a lot of gauges...

[G.R. Patterson III]

EDR wrote:
>
> I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
> the tank is empty.

Nope. The gauge must show the quantity of fuel in the tank. Furthermore, it
must read empty when there's no more useable fuel, not when the tank is empty.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

[C J Campbell]

Let me guess: you are flying one of the new 172's.

Cessna uses a sending unit in these fuel gauges that is notorious for
breaking down. It flickers down to zero every now and then, also causing the
low fuel light on the annunciator panel to flicker. It is harmless, but it
gets worse over time and eventually the gauge will fail.

I know one 172 ME that has had its fuel gauges replaced half a dozen times.

Cessna needs to get on the ball and understand that this kind of quality
control crap went out of style when the Japanese hit the US auto market in
the 1960's. You would think that spending $180,000 on a new airplane
entitles you to a gas gauge that works.

[mike regish]

I know if it's at all bumpy and the tanks are anything below full, my gages
are useless. They swing all over the place. Why can't they be damped like
car gages? I suppose they would stay pinned at 0 when the tank was actually
empty.

Barring leaks, I trust my timers. Between 3 and 5 thousand feet at 2200 rpm
I get 2 hours 28 minutes and change out of each tank. I can get another 6 or
7 minutes by slipping with the empty tank on the high side. I also know that
I really have to rock all the bubbles out of the tanks to get the full 18
gallons in each.

mike regish

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
news:R%xtb.161414$275.497496@attbi_s53...
> > Two watches will do that. Or a double timer like I use.
>
> There are a number of reasons why you might be using fuel FASTER than you
> are timing it. Let me tell you a few stories.
>
> A few years ago we got the Navion back from annual. The IA had signed
off on it, and
> another A&P, Margy, and I put the plane back together. The A&P and I
took it up for a
> test flight and after immediately opened her up to inspect for leaks and
all looked good.
> The next morning we take off for Oshkosh with Margy in the left seat.
She's negotiating
> with Approach for FF and a Class B clearance. I'm looking at the fuel
guage and thinking
> "I'm pretty sure I topped the thing off, but we're down gas." I tell
Margy and I tell I'll keep
> an eye on it. As it is, we've got over 80 gallons left on board. The
downward trend continues.
> Just at this time approach calls back with oru clearance. We're about
midway between
> two airports, we tell Dulles that we're going to Leesburg, they offer
assistance.
>
> Get down on the ground, find a mechanic, find that a fuel line is loose
and spraying fuel
> all over the inside of the engine compartment. I do a quick calculation
and determine that
> we have used 20 gallons in a 20 minute flight. That is 60 GPH!
>
> Another long time rec.aviator put his Cardinal down on a road because he
ran out of fuel
> due to a higher than predicted fuel burn. Was found that his carburator
was leaking.
>
> Another rec.aviator ran out of fuel IFR. Nobody yet knows what happened,
but he ran
> out way ahead of what preflight planning predicted.
>
> ****ty as your average light plane fuel guages are, they are NOT
superfluous.
>
>

[Doug]

One thing to consider, you could have a fuel leak in flight. Without
guages, you would never know it.

"Yossarian" > wrote in message >...
> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.
>
> Would you fly this airplane?

[BTIZ]

I was once told.. that the Cessna type gauges only have to be accurate when
the tank is empty.. it should tell you so.. it does not need to be accurate
at a full or partially full tank..

it should not say 1/2 when the engine coughs and sputters on an empty tank..

BT

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. ..
> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.
>
> Would you fly this airplane?
>
>

[BTIZ]

one watch and pencil and paper..


"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:R%xtb.161414$275.497496@attbi_s53...
> Two watches will do that. Or a double timer like I use.
>
> mike regish
>
> "ArtP" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:40:58 -0600, "Roger Tracy"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Yes. I go by tach time anyway and can peg fuel consumption
> > >pretty close.
> >
> > Spoken like a high winger. For us low wing types we have to know how
> > much fuel is in each tank. Since climb, cruise, and descent all use
> > different amounts of fuel it is hard to know how much is left in each
> > tank. Sooner or later we come to the point when the POH says switch to
> > the fullest tank. We need the gauges to know which one that is.
> >
>
>

[john smith]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> > I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
> > the tank is empty.

> You keep saying this, but it's not true.

Empty... unusable... Not much difference in my book. If there is no fuel
flowing to the engine, it's empty!
Of course, if you know the Chinese fuel management technique, you can
extract some or all of the unusable fuel.

[Yossarian]

that isn't the part that isn't true ;)

I didn't expect this thread to spark this much discussion!

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie wrote:
> > > I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
> > > the tank is empty.
>
> > You keep saying this, but it's not true.
>
> Empty... unusable... Not much difference in my book. If there is no fuel
> flowing to the engine, it's empty!
> Of course, if you know the Chinese fuel management technique, you can
> extract some or all of the unusable fuel.

[jim rosinski]

Jim Weir > wrote:

> The function of a fuel gauge in a Cessna is to tell whether or not the master
> switch is on.

Yeah, the gauges in my Skyhawk have never worked worth a damn. Every
couple of years my mechanic does some scraping on the electrical
contacts of those crappy little float things accessed behind the
filler caps and they work well enough to pass inspection. I forget
how many hundred dollars it was going to be to replace them. Doubt
replacements would do any better considering how poorly the gauges
seem to work in most Cessnas.

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

[C J Campbell]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:niBtb.3221$Ue4.826@fed1read01...
| I was once told.. that the Cessna type gauges only have to be accurate
when
| the tank is empty.. it should tell you so.. it does not need to be
accurate
| at a full or partially full tank..

You were told incorrectly, but you are in pretty good company. Even Rod
Machado made this error in one of his columns. He wrote back to me and told
me that he thought my interpretation of the regulations was probably more
correct. (But then, John King teaches the equal transit theory of lift, so
even "world famous" flight instructors like us get things wrong sometimes.
:-) Seriously, if you took all the faults and bits of misinformation taught
by just the top ten flight instructors in the country and put them into one
guy, you would probably have a really terrible flight instructor. But I
digress.)

The actual regulation states that the gauges must be calibrated so as to
read empty when usable fuel (as opposed to total fuel) is gone. Part 91
requires fuel gauges to indicate the quantity of fuel in each tank. I do not
believe that the momentary flickering caused by a bad sending unit in the
Cessna tanks seriously interferes with getting an accurate reading of the
amount of fuel in the tank. It is an annoyance at worst and you have to
watch it very closely to even see it.

Just how accurate a fuel gauge has to be to meet the requirements of Part 91
is not spelled out. I know of one guy (one of my instructors, actually -- I
was there) who was busted because his gauge read 2/3 full when it was
actually full. I know of at least one airplane that the gauge always reads
zero until you start the engine. I wonder how an inspector would feel about
that?

[Martin Kosina]

> Would you fly this airplane?

Do you have enough gas to fly the airplane ? Yes. Is it legal ? No.
Does anyone know ? Yes. That's your biggest go/no-go problem at this
point.

Seriously, if this is your airplane, try wiggling the trim pot on the
back of the gauge and give it a shot of corrosion-X. Corrosion buildup
on the pot contact is common, resulting in jerky movement, indication
that comes back with tapping on glass, etc. That's not legal either,
BTW, so don't tell anyone you did it !

[Kiwi Jet Jock]

> Would you fly this airplane?

No.

[rkane33]

Remember that you should be flying the airplane for pleasure. If your fuel
gauge shows empty it is not fun to fly. Like the others have said it is
possible a fuel leak changed your calculations.

I wonder how many pilots on this newsgroup have run their airplane to where
they used ALL the useable fuel. Try it, it is NOT fun. I had it happen in
Mexico where fuel is not always available. I would rock the wings to check
movement in the fuel gauges. The last check I did minutes before landing
showed NO movement, dead. Luckily I landed, of course making a high approach
in case the engine quit. When I fueled the total gallons added was exactly
the useable amount of fuel. Never do that again....and never went back to
Mexico.

[Cub Driver]

>I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
>flight.

That probably explains why the airport owner was mulling the
possibility of replacing the cork float in Zero Six Hotel.

The only gas gauge I trust is my watch. Two hours and it's time to
look for a nice smooth field.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Jim Weir]

I'm in the process of replacing the Stewart-Warner steam gauges in the 182 with
the Mitchell modular line. We're doing both fuel gauges and both oil gauges.
I'll do an analysis of my installation for a Kitplanes column, probably about
this time next year for the whole process to take place.

Jim



(jim rosinski)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Jim Weir > wrote:
->
->> The function of a fuel gauge in a Cessna is to tell whether or not the
master
->> switch is on.
->
->Yeah, the gauges in my Skyhawk have never worked worth a damn.

Doubt
->replacements would do any better considering how poorly the gauges
->seem to work in most Cessnas.
->
->Jim Rosinski
->N3825Q

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Newps]

Yossarian wrote:
> I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day VFR
> flight. Yesterday during my preflight in a 172 I saw that the right gauge
> was functioning intermittently--it would show full, flicker down to zero,
> bounce around, etc. Tank was visually confirmed full. Mechanic messed
> around with it for a while to no effect.
>
> Would you fly this airplane?

Without even thinking about it.

[Ron Natalie]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message news:niBtb.3221$Ue4.826@fed1read01...
> I was once told.. that the Cessna type gauges only have to be accurate when
> the tank is empty.. it should tell you so.. it does not need to be accurate
> at a full or partially full tank..

You were told wrong.

[Ron Natalie]

"john smith" > wrote in message ...
> Ron Natalie wrote:
> > > I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
> > > the tank is empty.
>
> > You keep saying this, but it's not true.
>
> Empty... unusable... Not much difference in my book. If there is no fuel
> flowing to the engine, it's empty!

People pull one cluase out of the reg. I've posted it. If you read the full
sentence people keep pulling out of their asses, you'll find that the gauges
are not any more or less accurate at empty than anywhere else.

[Gig Giacona]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie wrote:
> > > I believe certification only requires that the gauge show empty when
> > > the tank is empty.
>
> > You keep saying this, but it's not true.
>
> Empty... unusable... Not much difference in my book. If there is no fuel
> flowing to the engine, it's empty!
> Of course, if you know the Chinese fuel management technique, you can
> extract some or all of the unusable fuel.

The regulation reads

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

[Frank]

Cub Driver wrote:

>
>>I understand that functional fuel gauges are required equipment for day
>>VFR flight.
>
> That probably explains why the airport owner was mulling the
> possibility of replacing the cork float in Zero Six Hotel.
>
> The only gas gauge I trust is my watch. Two hours and it's time to
> look for a nice smooth field.

I agree on the trust part, the gauges in my 172 are notorious for their
inaccuracy. You didn't say whether or not you'd fly the plane but some will
interpret this as "go ahead and fly as long as you don't forget to wind
your watch".

I monitor the gauges more to catch an indication of a fuel leak rather than
for actual fuel consumption.


--
Frank....H

[Ron Natalie]

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message ...
]> >
> > Empty... unusable... Not much difference in my book. If there is no fuel
> > flowing to the engine, it's empty!
> > Of course, if you know the Chinese fuel management technique, you can
> > extract some or all of the unusable fuel.
>
> The regulation reads
>
> (9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
>
23.1337 says
Fuel quantity indication. There must be a means to indicate to the flightcrew members the quantity
of usable fuel in each tank during flight. An indicator calibrated in appropriate units and clearly marked
to indicate those units must be used. In addition:
(1) Each fuel quantity indicator must be calibrated to read "zero"
during level flight when the quantity of fuel remaining in the tank is equal to the unusable fuel supply determined under
§ 23.959(a)

[John Galban]

ArtP > wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:40:58 -0600, "Roger Tracy"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yes. I go by tach time anyway and can peg fuel consumption
> >pretty close.
>
> Spoken like a high winger. For us low wing types we have to know how
> much fuel is in each tank. Since climb, cruise, and descent all use
> different amounts of fuel it is hard to know how much is left in each
> tank. Sooner or later we come to the point when the POH says switch to
> the fullest tank. We need the gauges to know which one that is.

We do? I just use my watch and some scratch paper on my kneeboard.
That gives me a pretty good idea as to which tank has more fuel. The
different fuel burn in climb and descent tend to cancel each other
out. When refueling, I regularly guess the amount required to fill
each tank by 1/2 gal. I just base it all on the average cruise fuel
burn.

I'm sure someone will mention the possibility of a mechanical
problem causing a higher than normal fuel burn. To cover that, my
tank switching methodology works so that if one runs dry prematurely,
I'll still have plenty of gas in the other tank to go to an alternate.

That said, I do use my gauges when I fly, but I don't depend on
them. They're only there to alert me to a possible problem which will
be confirmed by a) one tank running out of gas earlier than expected
or b) verifiying the fuel burn at the next refueling stop.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Roger Tracy]

Well .. if that's the standard .. I've never seen one meet it.


"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The regulation reads
>
> (9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Tracy wrote:
>
> Well .. if that's the standard .. I've never seen one meet it.

I have two in my Maule. The gauges in my old Cessna 150 were also pretty
accurate.

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.