cleared, then busted

[virga]

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/148-full.html
I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but wow!

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, virga > said:
>http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/148-full.html
>I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but wow!

"Our federal government has put together a set of dysfunctional operating
procedures based upon intellectually dishonest assumptions and delivered
with a big degree of institutional arrogance," he said.

So business as usual, then?



--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
It's not 'I don't do Windows', it's 'I know nothing about Windows,
and it generally explodes when I get near it'.
-- Matt McLeod

[Jay Honeck]

Unbelievable.

What a screwed up mess.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
> Unbelievable.
>
> What a screwed up mess.
> --
Now you're catching on!

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
> Unbelievable.
>
> What a screwed up mess.

Are you kidding? It's entirely believable.

[Snowbird]

virga > wrote in message >...
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/148-full.html
> I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but wow!

Well, frankly, I suspect a goodly number of those 600 incursions involve
a similar kind of systemic screw up. I've heard, for example, of pilots
being instructed to squawk VFR before landing or before actually exiting
the ADIZ, then having to account for themselves as an "incursion".

Ugh.
Sydney

[Michael 182]

Just to give some credit where it's due...

I flew up to Rapid City today and asked approach to vector me as close as
they could to Mt. Rushmore. They were very friendly, cautioned me about the
restricted area around the monument, and vectored and suggested altitudes to
get as close as was reasonably possible without risking getting busted. Did
a nice job. (Still not a great view. Really need to land to see the faces
well.)

Seems that on a one on one basis I usually get excellent service from
controllers, but on a buearacratic level, such as the one described in this
link, it gets crazy.

Michael


"virga" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/148-full.html
> I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but wow!
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:jGbub.170416$mZ5.1197211@attbi_s54...
>
> I flew up to Rapid City today and asked approach to vector me as close as
> they could to Mt. Rushmore. They were very friendly, cautioned me about
the
> restricted area around the monument, and vectored and suggested altitudes
to
> get as close as was reasonably possible without risking getting busted.
Did
> a nice job. (Still not a great view. Really need to land to see the faces
> well.)
>

A Restricted Area around Mt. Rushmore? That sounds dangerous to me, and
harmful to the monument too.

[Michael 182]

Maybe I'm using the wrong term, but the controller referred to it as
restricted. 700' vertical, 2000' horizontal... What should it be called?


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:jGbub.170416$mZ5.1197211@attbi_s54...
> >
> > I flew up to Rapid City today and asked approach to vector me as close
as
> > they could to Mt. Rushmore. They were very friendly, cautioned me about
> the
> > restricted area around the monument, and vectored and suggested
altitudes
> to
> > get as close as was reasonably possible without risking getting busted.
> Did
> > a nice job. (Still not a great view. Really need to land to see the
faces
> > well.)
> >
>
> A Restricted Area around Mt. Rushmore? That sounds dangerous to me, and
> harmful to the monument too.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:_Ybub.174249$9E1.900924@attbi_s52...
>
> Maybe I'm using the wrong term, but the controller referred to it as
> restricted. 700' vertical, 2000' horizontal... What should it be called?
>

Restricted Areas are established for security reasons or to contain
hazardous activities, such as bombing and gunnery ranges. Mt. Rushmore is
in the Black Elk Wilderness Area, both are charted on the Cheyenne
sectional. Non-emergency landings are prohibited in Wilderness Areas, but
flight in them is not strictly prohibited. Aircraft are requested to
maintain a minimum altitude of 2,000 feet AGL while overflying them.

[Wdtabor]

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
>> Unbelievable.
>>
>> What a screwed up mess.
>> --
>Now you're catching on!
>

ANd some people want the government to run your health care.

Think about that.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Peter Gottlieb]

What difference does it make? Health care has already been demolished in
this country.


"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> >"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> >news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
> >> Unbelievable.
> >>
> >> What a screwed up mess.
> >> --
> >Now you're catching on!
> >
>
> ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
>
> Think about that.
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Peter Gottlieb]

Didn't someone here say that most pilots are Republican? I assume a large
percentage of those voted for the current administration, right?

I call it as I see it: this administration is screwing GA big time, and
their record in other areas doesn't look much better.

I like it when there is some degree of gridlock in Washington, like the
White House in the power of one party and Congress another. This tends to
slow down new legislation, which is almost always a good thing. But now
with one party in control, things seem to be getting worse rapidly. A
number of posters told me a while ago (when I made a similar comment) that
it would be better if the Republicans had complete control. I'm waiting.
Just when are things going to get better? Or at least stop getting worse?

I wish there was something *effective* we could do.



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
> Unbelievable.
>
> What a screwed up mess.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Wdtabor) said:
>ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
>
>Think about that.

They can't do a worse job than the beancounters are doing now. Says the
guy who had two doctor ordered treatments turned down by ****ing insurance
companies.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
The thing I've noticed, particularly about Usenet, that while as a
welcome break from work it is refreshing and interesting, when you've
got bugger all else to do it kinda loses its appeal. -- C Speed

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Unbelievable.

No, business as usual. If we really had 600 bust of the DC ADIZ, that would be
more than one a day. Have you seen that many in the news? Do you think the
reporters have decided that DC airspace busts aren't worth reporting?

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> Didn't someone here say that most pilots are Republican? I assume a large
> percentage of those voted for the current administration, right?

Based on the posts I've seen over the last few years, I'd say that the first
sentence should be in the past tense and the second sentence is correct.

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

[R. Hubbell]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:11:36 GMT
virga > wrote:

> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/148-full.html
> I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but wow!
>


I can imagine the phone call the airport managers might get.
"Hi we're from the FAA, we are here to help"


R. Hubbell

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article <jGbub.170416$mZ5.1197211@attbi_s54>,
Michael 182 > wrote:
>Just to give some credit where it's due...
[SNIP]
>Seems that on a one on one basis I usually get excellent service from
>controllers, but on a buearacratic level, such as the one described in this
>link, it gets crazy.

This seems to be the case for schools, doctors, lawerys, etc. as well.
On the whole the system is screwed, but _MY_ doctor, childs' school, etc.
is doing the best they can and a fairly good job.
I learned to fly from a class D airport (KBFI) which is under class B
airspace; so I've been talking to ATC from lesson one. I have NEVER had a
problem with ATC and have never not been allowed into the clas B. Yet I
read/heard abot all kinds of problems with out ATC system.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Ron Natalie at
wrote on 11/17/03 1:21 PM:

>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
>> Unbelievable.
>>
>> What a screwed up mess.
>> --
> Now you're catching on!

Those 600 pilots aren't looking quite so stupid now, are they?

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Wdtabor at
wrote on 11/17/03 4:27 PM:

>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
>>> Unbelievable.
>>>
>>> What a screwed up mess.
>>> --
>> Now you're catching on!
>>
>
> ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
>
> Think about that.

This person has private health insurance companies run his health care, and
is currently overwhelmed by mountains of paperwork, staggering cost (which
rises by the month), the densest bureaucracy I've ever seen, and managerial
incompetence on an epic scale. I've never been one to say that the
government should run everything, but I'm genuinely wondering how they could
do any worse.

[Peter Duniho]

"'Vejita' S. Cousin" > wrote in message
...
> [...] I have NEVER had a
> problem with ATC and have never not been allowed into the clas B. Yet I
> read/heard abot all kinds of problems with out ATC system.

Well, ATC is a big system. And it's human nature to talk about the
problems, so of course you're going to hear about the problems. But, if you
heard about all the successes as well as all the failures, you wouldn't be
able to remember the failures, for all the reports of successes you had to
listen to.

Pete

[Jeff]

I did not vote for Bush, I would rather have a president in bed with his
intern then in bed with Big Business and screwing over the little people.


Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> Didn't someone here say that most pilots are Republican? I assume a large
> percentage of those voted for the current administration, right?
>
> I call it as I see it: this administration is screwing GA big time, and
> their record in other areas doesn't look much better.
>
> I like it when there is some degree of gridlock in Washington, like the
> White House in the power of one party and Congress another. This tends to
> slow down new legislation, which is almost always a good thing. But now
> with one party in control, things seem to be getting worse rapidly. A
> number of posters told me a while ago (when I made a similar comment) that
> it would be better if the Republicans had complete control. I'm waiting.
> Just when are things going to get better? Or at least stop getting worse?
>
> I wish there was something *effective* we could do.
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
> > Unbelievable.
> >
> > What a screwed up mess.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >

[Bob Noel]

In article >, (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

> >ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
> >
> >Think about that.
>
> They can't do a worse job than the beancounters are doing now. Says the
> guy who had two doctor ordered treatments turned down by ****ing insurance
> companies.

I don't want to bet your health or life on it. Says the guy working
in the acquisition of systems for the government.

--
Bob Noel

[Bob Noel]

In article <ESgub.7613$iS6.4844@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> wrote:

> > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/148-full.html
> > I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but wow!
>
> I can imagine the phone call the airport managers might get.
> "Hi we're from the FAA, we are here to help"

followed by "we aren't happy until you're not happy"

--
Bob Noel

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Bob Noel > said:
>In article >, (Paul
>Tomblin) wrote:
>> They can't do a worse job than the beancounters are doing now. Says the
>> guy who had two doctor ordered treatments turned down by ****ing insurance
>> companies.
>
>I don't want to bet your health or life on it. Says the guy working
>in the acquisition of systems for the government.

I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it worked
pretty damn well.



--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Microsoft - Just say No.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Now you're catching on!
>
> Those 600 pilots aren't looking quite so stupid now, are they?

Well, let's just split the blame in half then, shall we? Perhaps 300 stupid
pilots plus 300 screwed-up controllers? (I'll bet it's more like 590 to 10,
but who knows?)

Either way, we (not "they"), as pilots in command, have a BIG problem, and
we can either fix it, or we can wait for the FAA to fix it for us.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Well, let's just split the blame in half then, shall we? Perhaps 300 stupid
> pilots plus 300 screwed-up controllers? (I'll bet it's more like 590 to 10,
> but who knows?)

Unlikely. In the past, we heard about it on the news every time a pilot screwed
up in other matters. I think the security agencies behind the ADIZ would make
sure that the media will hear about every time a pilot screws up with it. Since
600 ADIZ violations works out to something around 1 a day, and we hear about
one every few months, I'd bet it's about 590 ATC or NG mistakes versus 10 cases
of pilot error. Or maybe 50 ATC errors, 10 pilot errors, and 540 fabricated
incidences to make the "problem" seem severe.

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

[David Brooks]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Wdtabor at
> wrote on 11/17/03 4:27 PM:
>
> >> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> >> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
> >>> Unbelievable.
> >>>
> >>> What a screwed up mess.
> >>> --
> >> Now you're catching on!
> >>
> >
> > ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
> >
> > Think about that.
>
> This person has private health insurance companies run his health care,
and
> is currently overwhelmed by mountains of paperwork, staggering cost (which
> rises by the month), the densest bureaucracy I've ever seen, and
managerial
> incompetence on an epic scale. I've never been one to say that the
> government should run everything, but I'm genuinely wondering how they
could
> do any worse.

My 83-year-old mother, living in London, and having had a hand operation two
weeks ago, has seen one short form, no cost, some averagely dense
bureaucracy and superb case management. A fundamental difference that many
people seem to ignore is that the British (and Canadian) healthcare system
is run by people who are interested in healthcase, while in the US it's run
by people who are interested in maximizing insurance company profits.

I realize the cost is borne by the economy at large, but the entire British
healthcare system is still much less expensive than the collection of US
systems (so why am I still living here?)

-- David Brooks

[Rosspilot]

>the entire British
>healthcare system is still much less expensive than the collection of US
>systems (so why am I still living here?)
>

Because you can fly for 1/3 of what it would cost in the UK? :)


www.Rosspilot.com

[John T]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message

>
> Because you can fly for 1/3 of what it would cost in the UK? :)

Part of that "economy at large" he was talking about. Gotta pay for those
massive gubment programs somehow... :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[David Brooks]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >the entire British
> >healthcare system is still much less expensive than the collection of US
> >systems (so why am I still living here?)
> >
>
> Because you can fly for 1/3 of what it would cost in the UK? :)

Ah, yes, thank you for reminding me.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
>
> Part of that "economy at large" he was talking about. Gotta pay for those
> massive gubment programs somehow... :)
>

That largely explains why "the entire British healthcare system is still
much less expensive than the collection of US systems". It's not that it's
actually less expensive, it's that somebody else is paying for most of it.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
>> Part of that "economy at large" he was talking about. Gotta pay for those
>> massive gubment programs somehow... :)
>>
>
>That largely explains why "the entire British healthcare system is still
>much less expensive than the collection of US systems". It's not that it's
>actually less expensive, it's that somebody else is paying for most of it.

Economists who can count all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends
considerably less per person on health care than the US. And unlike the
US, they don't leave out 1/4 of the population while doing it.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
A good landing is one you walk away from. A *great* landing is one after
which you can use the plane another time.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Economists who can count all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends
> considerably less per person on health care than the US. And unlike the
> US, they don't leave out 1/4 of the population while doing it.
>

Canadian hospitals have less modern equipment available than American
hospitals do. They depend on American medicines after destroying incentives
to develop their own with price controls. They buy American medicines in
bulk covering only the manufacturing costs, while American hospitals have to
cover development costs as well. In short, American health care is better
than Canadian health care.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> Economists who can count all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends
>> considerably less per person on health care than the US. And unlike the
>> US, they don't leave out 1/4 of the population while doing it.
>Canadian hospitals have less modern equipment available than American
>hospitals do. They depend on American medicines after destroying incentives
>to develop their own with price controls. They buy American medicines in
>bulk covering only the manufacturing costs, while American hospitals have to
>cover development costs as well. In short, American health care is better
>than Canadian health care.

You have proof for any of those assertions, or did you just pull the whole
thing out of your ass? And since when does paying less for the same drugs
equate to having worse health care? It sounds better to me. Sounds
better to those busloads of Amercians coming across the border to buy
them, too.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Real Time, adj.:
Here and now, as opposed to fake time, which only occurs there
and then.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> You have proof for any of those assertions, or did you just pull the whole
> thing out of your ass?
>

Sure, just as you have proof for your claim that economists who can count
all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends considerably less per person
on health care than the US, and unlike the US, they don't leave out 1/4 of
the population while doing it.


>
>And since when does paying less for the same drugs
> equate to having worse health care? It sounds better to me. Sounds
> better to those busloads of Amercians coming across the border to buy
> them, too.
>

It sounds better in the short term. In the long term if nobody pays the
development costs of new drugs there'll be no new drugs.

[Ash Wyllie]

Philip Sondericker opined

>in article , Wdtabor at
wrote on 11/17/03 4:27 PM:

>>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
>>>> Unbelievable.
>>>>
>>>> What a screwed up mess.
>>>> --
>>> Now you're catching on!
>>>
>>
>> ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
>>
>> Think about that.

>This person has private health insurance companies run his health care, and
>is currently overwhelmed by mountains of paperwork, staggering cost (which
>rises by the month), the densest bureaucracy I've ever seen, and managerial
>incompetence on an epic scale. I've never been one to say that the
>government should run everything, but I'm genuinely wondering how they could
>do any worse.

You might ask a veteran about government health care. Was the time to
treatment from the VA in a recent report 45 days, or 45 months? I can't
remember at the moment.

-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Ash Wyllie]

Paul Tomblin opined

>In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
>said:
>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>> Economists who can count all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends
>>> considerably less per person on health care than the US. And unlike the
>>> US, they don't leave out 1/4 of the population while doing it.
>>Canadian hospitals have less modern equipment available than American
>>hospitals do. They depend on American medicines after destroying incentives
>>to develop their own with price controls. They buy American medicines in
>>bulk covering only the manufacturing costs, while American hospitals have to
>>cover development costs as well. In short, American health care is better
>>than Canadian health care.

>You have proof for any of those assertions, or did you just pull the whole
>thing out of your ass? And since when does paying less for the same drugs
>equate to having worse health care? It sounds better to me. Sounds
>better to those busloads of Amercians coming across the border to buy
>them, too.

Of course there are the bus loads of Canadisans coming south for treatment
that they can't get in Canada...

Steve's main point is that a) Canadians have much less access to things like
CAT scans and b) are heavily subsidized by the US with regards to drugs. If
Canadians had to pay for drug R&D Canadian costs would be much higher.

The Fraser Institute suggests that some capital and training costs are not
included in Canadian health care costs. It is hard to tell if we are really
comparing apples to apples.


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Lynn Melrose]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
> >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Economists who can count all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends
> >> considerably less per person on health care than the US. And unlike the
> >> US, they don't leave out 1/4 of the population while doing it.
> >Canadian hospitals have less modern equipment available than American
> >hospitals do. They depend on American medicines after destroying incentives
> >to develop their own with price controls. They buy American medicines in
> >bulk covering only the manufacturing costs, while American hospitals have to
> >cover development costs as well. In short, American health care is better
> >than Canadian health care.
>
> You have proof for any of those assertions, or did you just pull the whole
> thing out of your ass? And since when does paying less for the same drugs
> equate to having worse health care? It sounds better to me. Sounds
> better to those busloads of Amercians coming across the border to buy
> them, too.

Busloads of Americans coming to the border to save some bucks on drugs sound a lot
better than the busloads of Canadians going South to get timely badly needed medical
care, due to long waiting lines at government run hospitals back home. [Wall Street
Journal 7/23/02 "Socialized medicine is a real headache."]

[C J Campbell]

"Jeff" > wrote in message ...
| I did not vote for Bush, I would rather have a president in bed with his
| intern then in bed with Big Business and screwing over the little people.
|

Why is this the choice? Have we become so polarized politically that we will
put up with any amount of corruption from anyone who claims to represent our
own point of view?

Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior, regardless
of their political leanings.

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article et>,
>> Economists who can count all the inputs say that in total, Canada spends
>> considerably less per person on health care than the US. And unlike the
>> US, they don't leave out 1/4 of the population while doing it.
>>
>
>Canadian hospitals have less modern equipment available than American
>hospitals do. They depend on American medicines after destroying incentives
>to develop their own with price controls. They buy American medicines in
>bulk covering only the manufacturing costs, while American hospitals have to
>cover development costs as well. In short, American health care is better
>than Canadian health care.

Let's not forget that many Canadians that can afford to come down south
for procedures (at least between Victoria and Vancouver BC to Seattle).
But I think it balances out with the numbe of people going to Canada to by
prescription drugs (which I've been told recently might be illegal).

[Montblack]

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
> That largely explains why "the entire British healthcare system is still
> much less expensive than the collection of US systems". It's not that
it's
> actually less expensive, it's that somebody else is paying for most of it.


Sound like "affordable housing."

--
Montblack

[Jeff]

My first choice would be someone honest and thought about the people instead of
filling their wallets - I think it would be hard to find someone like this in
politics

Hell, our city council woman is under investigation by the FBI for taking money
to vote a certain way on a strip club issue, its funny because this is what
congress does all the time, but they call it lobbying and its legal - thats why
nothing gets done in DC unless your a big company with alot of donations to
give.

Jeff
http://www.turboarrow3.com


C J Campbell wrote:

> "Jeff" > wrote in message ...
> | I did not vote for Bush, I would rather have a president in bed with his
> | intern then in bed with Big Business and screwing over the little people.
> |
>
> Why is this the choice? Have we become so polarized politically that we will
> put up with any amount of corruption from anyone who claims to represent our
> own point of view?
>
> Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior, regardless
> of their political leanings.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Lynn Melrose > said:
>Busloads of Americans coming to the border to save some bucks on drugs
>sound a lot better than the busloads of Canadians going South to get
>timely badly needed medical care, due to long waiting lines at government
>run hospitals back home. [Wall Street Journal 7/23/02 "Socialized
>medicine is a real headache."]

The Canadians coming south are queue jumpers who don't want to
wait their turn for non-emergency care. My dad had a heart attack a few
years ago and had two CAT scans and an MRI and surgery within 6 hours.
And his cardiac surgeon was the same guy who was featured on an episode of
NOVA many years ago for his innovative rehabilitation techniques (a group
of his patients were shown running the Ironman Triathlon in Hawaii).

There is nothing wrong with the Canadian system that couldn't be cured by
spending as much per person as the US system does. There is nothing wrong
with the US "system" that couldn't be cured by burning a few insurance
company bean counters and their bought politicians at the stake.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
It might not be practical, it might not be a good idea, but it could work.
Sort of like Windows.
-- berry

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "C J Campbell" > said:
>Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior, regardless
>of their political leanings.

My first choice would be people of impeccable principles. You got any
candidates like that? John McCain is the closest I've sean, and even he
tends to follow the political winds.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Their constitution is unwritten, and is mostly based on common law and
practice. In other words, they do something wrong and it then becomes
the norm. -- Laurie Couturier, on the British legal system

[C J Campbell]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
| In a previous article, "C J Campbell"
> said:
| >Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior,
regardless
| >of their political leanings.
|
| My first choice would be people of impeccable principles. You got any
| candidates like that? John McCain is the closest I've sean, and even he
| tends to follow the political winds.
|

There are no such candidates left, if there ever were any. The political
parties are so obsessed with power that only the corrupt can survive.

[Dave]

>
> Busloads of Americans coming to the border to save some bucks on drugs
sound a lot
> better than the busloads of Canadians going South to get timely badly
needed medical
> care, due to long waiting lines at government run hospitals back home.
[Wall Street
> Journal 7/23/02 "Socialized medicine is a real headache."]

Here in the UK healthcare is free at the point of delivery and is accessible
to everyone. I also have private health insurance provided by my employer
and that is for when I want non emergency treatment or treatment at my time
of choosing. For emergencies the National Health Service is as good as it
gets. For non urgent treatment like a hip replacement there could be a wait
of up to six months.

I have an impingement in my shoulder, possibly a torn rotator cuff. Using
the private insurance I have had an MRI scan, and got an appointment for
surgery set up for January after my Christmas Holiday in Florida. I could
have had the operation yesterday but the recovery might have got in the way
of the vacation (no flying).

Its all paid for out of taxes and is available on the basis of need not
wallet or insurance. It does leave us open to abuse as there are cases of
foreigners who fly in, get diagnosed as being ill and then get treatment. We
just have to live with that, it a mark of a civilised society and in a funny
Christian sort of way, turning the other cheek.

Its comforting knowing that if anyone in my family gets ill, I don't have to
worry about who pays.

On a more stupid point, over the counter drugs policy in the US is so
different from here.

For example, here Ibuprofen is sold only in blister packs of 16 tablets. It
is illegal to sell more. Yet last time I was in the US I bought a tub of 500
at Wal Mart for next to nothing. Here the reason is that these things are
considered dangerous (suicide) etc. Mid you if you go the urge to kill
yourself in Wal Mart, its easier and to get a gun and shoot yourself than
swallow 500 ibuprofen tablets.

[Dave]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> | I did not vote for Bush, I would rather have a president in bed with his
> | intern then in bed with Big Business and screwing over the little
people.
> |
>
> Why is this the choice? Have we become so polarized politically that we
will
> put up with any amount of corruption from anyone who claims to represent
our
> own point of view?
>
> Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior, regardless
> of their political leanings.

Yeh, but there is no place in politics for people with those qualities.
People with those qualities would rather be dead than a politician.

Politician never lie. They just tell their own truth.

[John T]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message

>
> The Canadians coming south are queue jumpers who don't want to
> wait their turn for non-emergency care.

hmm....

> There is nothing wrong with the Canadian system that couldn't be
> cured by spending as much per person as the US system does.

It would seem to me that those "queue jumpers" are indeed driving up the
"total inputs" you mentioned a few posts ago - and are more than willing to
spend the money.

No, American healthcare isn't everything I'd like it to be, but I shudder to
think what it would be like under government administration. If you want to
talk about HMO's and how the lawyers are deciding more about medical
practice than doctors, I'm all ears. Bring in the government and I'll show
you the door.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Bob Noel
wrote:
> The Canadian system had and still has the US system as a relief valve.
> (but I am glad you've had your Canadian system work well for you).

When I put my hand through a glass door, severing all the flexor
tendons, median nerve, both arteries in my wrist, I had it fixed by
so-called "socialized health care".

The comment made by the US AME who looked at the repair when I went for
my first medical?

"They did a really good job with that"

I had regained normal function of the hand in 3 months, too. The
sensation took a little longer to come back on all of the hand (nerves
take time to grow). The job involved not only repairing the wrist in the
first place (6.5 hours of microsurgery) but followup daily physiotherapy
for 2 months. I wonder if insurance would have paid for it all.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior, regardless
> of their political leanings.

LBJ used to tell the following ....

It's a little known fact that George Washington was originally from Texas. One
day his father came home and found his favorite cherry tree lying on the lawn.
When he asked George how it happened, George said "I cannot tell a lie; I did
it with my little hatchet." George's father said "Well, if you can't tell a lie,
we're going to have to move, 'cause you won't get anywhere in *Texas* politics."

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[Andrew Gideon]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>
> It sounds better in the short term. In the long term if nobody pays the
> development costs of new drugs there'll be no new drugs.

You're missing that, from Canada's perspective, the development is free.
That's a given, at least under current conditions.

So their healthcare doesn't suffer from a lack of R&D funding. Clever of
them. Bad for us, but why should they care if we're willing to bend over
for them?

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> There is nothing wrong
> with the US "system" that couldn't be cured by burning a few insurance
> company bean counters and their bought politicians at the stake.

We've no reason to believe that this is correct...but perhaps we should try
it as an experiment <grin>.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

C J Campbell wrote:

> There are no such candidates left, if there ever were any. The political
> parties are so obsessed with power that only the corrupt can survive.

I don't think the parties are directly to blame. Rather, it's the people
that vote for the corruption that best lines their pockets. When it comes
down to election time, politicians advertise their pork jobs. Look at
interviews of voters: many cite such "projects" as reasons to keep senior
politicians in power.

The parties are working to stay in power, true. But it's the voters that
empower corrupt government.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

> It's a little known fact that George Washington was originally from Texas.
> One day his father came home and found his favorite cherry tree lying on
> the lawn. When he asked George how it happened, George said "I cannot tell
> a lie; I did it with my little hatchet." George's father said "Well, if
> you can't tell a lie, we're going to have to move, 'cause you won't get
> anywhere in *Texas* politics."

Why? In Texas, it would have been called a "monster axe"?

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>
> You're missing that, from Canada's perspective, the development is free.
> That's a given, at least under current conditions.
>

I haven't missed that. If we follow Canada's lead, as many seem to want,
the US will also cease to develop new drugs.

[Tom S.]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> | In a previous article, "C J Campbell"
> > said:
> | >Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior,
> regardless
> | >of their political leanings.
> |
> | My first choice would be people of impeccable principles. You got any
> | candidates like that? John McCain is the closest I've sean, and even he
> | tends to follow the political winds.

For all his "impeccable principles", McCain is a statist thug.

> There are no such candidates left, if there ever were any. The political
> parties are so obsessed with power that only the corrupt can survive.

"There can be no doubt that the old regime in Iraq was horrible. The Hussein
regime was a classic example of how the worst get on top of any system where
the government attempts to control and plan the entire economy. As FA Hayek
taught us (1945), those who are best at wielding power are the most brutal,
rather than the most humanitarian, people among us. President Bush surely
means well in his efforts to build a new Iraqi government and in supplying
billions in aid to it, but he will likely empower a new political elite with
this policy. This new elite need not be as tyrannical as the Hussein regime,
but it may not be much better, and will hardly be capable of promoting
economic efficiency."
Slaves to the Marshall Myth
by D.W. MacKenzie
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1374

[Tom S.]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> Maybe our first choice should be people of impeccable behavior,
regardless
> of their political leanings.

People WANT the goodies that government brings.

If you could resurrect Madison, Jefferson, Mason, and those guys, they
wouldn't poll 5%.

--
"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant
pervert the plain Meaning of Words!"
--Samuel Adams (1722-1803), letter to
John Pitts, January 21, 1776

[Happy Dog]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Bob Noel > said:
> >In article >, (Paul
> >Tomblin) wrote:
> >> They can't do a worse job than the beancounters are doing now. Says
the
> >> guy who had two doctor ordered treatments turned down by ****ing
insurance
> >> companies.
> >
> >I don't want to bet your health or life on it. Says the guy working
> >in the acquisition of systems for the government.
>
> I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it worked
> pretty damn well.

You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical attention
was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could afford, but
not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a non-emergency
MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for fun).
What did you bet on? What was your ante?

le moo

[C J Campbell]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
| >
| > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > |
| > | My first choice would be people of impeccable principles. You got any
| > | candidates like that? John McCain is the closest I've sean, and even
he
| > | tends to follow the political winds.
|
| For all his "impeccable principles", McCain is a statist thug.
|

I have to agree there.

[Montblack]

("Tom S." wrote)
> If you could resurrect Madison, Jefferson, Mason, and those guys, they
> wouldn't poll 5%.


I got'ta think the Hamilton duel would pull a 20 share in the overnights.

--
Montblack
"I like to watch"

[Tom S.]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Tom S." wrote)
> > If you could resurrect Madison, Jefferson, Mason, and those guys, they
> > wouldn't poll 5%.
>
>
> I got'ta think the Hamilton duel would pull a 20 share in the overnights.
>
Yeah, but they'd ruin it with repeated slowmo replays, action diagrams,
endless inane commentary...

[Tom S.]

"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it
worked
> > pretty damn well.
>
> You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical
attention
> was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could afford,
but
> not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a
non-emergency
> MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for fun).
> What did you bet on? What was your ante?

When I tore my ACL last year, it was 12 days from injury to surgery (and
that includes about five days of being chicken**** before going to the
doctor). MRI, a bunch of other tests to make sure I wouldn't croak on the
operating table (EKG, blood work...).

Surgery was five hours (with a cadaver graft) and left four 1/2 inch scars.

Total out of pocket: $50 co-pay and three prescriptions at $10 a pop for
co-pays. We pay a tidy sum for catastrophic coverage, but it's better than
the HMO whorehouse (a facet of government intervention).

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>
> oh, that's why some elderly Americans have to import medicine from Canada.
:-)
>

Review the thread.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Happy Dog" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it worked
>> pretty damn well.
>
>You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical attention
>was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could afford, but
>not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a non-emergency
>MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for fun).
>What did you bet on? What was your ante?

My father had a heart attack a few years ago, near Toronto. He got MRIs,
CAT scans, and surgery, all within a few hours. He was operated on by a
world famous cardiac surgeon who has been profiled on the US science show
"NOVA". Now he gets drugs that would cost thousands of dollars a week.
So far, he's paid exactly $0.00, not counting parking at the doctor's
office.

So I anted my father's life, and won.

Compare and contrast with the US system, where my doctor has twice
referred me to chronic pain specialists only to have the insurance company
turn me down. I've switched insurance companies, but they're all in
collusion to treat chronic pain sufferers as nothing but whiners. Oh, and
they wouldn't pay to treat the depression caused by the chronic pain,
either. They're all a bunch of ****ing *******s, and they have the entire
US political system in their pockets because politics runs on money, and
they've made plenty by denying proper medical care even to those lucky
enough to supposedly have coverage.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
My group's mission statement - 'You want *what* ? By *WHEN* ?'
-- Simon Burr

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> My father had a heart attack a few years ago, near Toronto. He got MRIs,
> CAT scans, and surgery, all within a few hours. He was operated on by a
> world famous cardiac surgeon who has been profiled on the US science show
> "NOVA". Now he gets drugs that would cost thousands of dollars a week.
> So far, he's paid exactly $0.00, not counting parking at the doctor's
> office.
>

It's amazing that this can be done with absolutely no cost to anyone.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> My father had a heart attack a few years ago, near Toronto. He got MRIs,
>> CAT scans, and surgery, all within a few hours. He was operated on by a
>> world famous cardiac surgeon who has been profiled on the US science show
>> "NOVA". Now he gets drugs that would cost thousands of dollars a week.
>> So far, he's paid exactly $0.00, not counting parking at the doctor's
>> office.
>>
>
>It's amazing that this can be done with absolutely no cost to anyone.

Never said it was no cost to anyone. But according to several sources,
Canadians pay less per capita for health care than Americans.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Never said it was no cost to anyone.
>

No, you didn't. You said he paid nothing. So apparently he pays no taxes
and has paid none sinse the current system was implemented.


>
> But according to several sources,
> Canadians pay less per capita for health care than Americans.
>

You get what you pay for.

[Robert Perkins]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:22:36 +0100, Martin Hotze
> wrote:

>"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
>
>> In short, American health care is better
>> than Canadian health care.
>
>oh, that's why some elderly Americans have to import medicine from Canada. :-)

The *care* is demonstrably better. Fewer lines, etc. The *drug*
situation is out of control, IMO; the drug companies shifted the cost
of research onto United States customers (and others), since Canada
negotiated its way onto some good longterm prices for medicine.

Personally, I think the price structure for medicine in the U.S. is
rapacious, and being reasonably healthy I don't even have to pay for
any of that stuff. Don't know what the real situation is like in
central Europe, but if my experience was any indicator, acetominophin
and Sudafed was simply not to be found in the apothecaries. People
told me to drink a strong peppermint tea.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> Never said it was no cost to anyone.
>>
>
>No, you didn't. You said he paid nothing. So apparently he pays no taxes
>and has paid none sinse the current system was implemented.

So when you have a medical condition, you tell people it cost the sum
total that you and your employer have paid for your medical insurance
through your entire lifetime? No, you count how much EXTRA you paid
because of that medical procedure, in copays, drugs, uncovered procedures,
prosthetics and other costs that you wouldn't have paid if you hadn't had
it.

In the case of my chronic pain, it's in the tens of thousands. In the
case of my dad's heart attack, it's zero.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I got accused of being humorless last night. I'm considering quoting
Lieutenant Commander Data: "Perhaps the joke was not funny."
-- Alan Rosenthal

[Happy Dog]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Happy Dog" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it
> worked
> > > pretty damn well.
> >
> > You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical
> attention
> > was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could afford,
> but
> > not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a
> non-emergency
> > MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for fun).
> > What did you bet on? What was your ante?
>
> When I tore my ACL last year, it was 12 days from injury to surgery (and
> that includes about five days of being chicken**** before going to the
> doctor). MRI, a bunch of other tests to make sure I wouldn't croak on the
> operating table (EKG, blood work...).

I should have said "elective MRI". MRI was clinically indicated in your
case. Different animal.

moo

[Happy Dog]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Happy Dog" > said:
> >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it
worked
> >> pretty damn well.
> >
> >You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical
attention
> >was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could afford,
but
> >not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a
non-emergency
> >MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for fun).
> >What did you bet on? What was your ante?
>
> My father had a heart attack a few years ago, near Toronto.

That's hardly a non-emergency condition.

> He got MRIs,
> CAT scans, and surgery, all within a few hours. He was operated on by a
> world famous cardiac surgeon who has been profiled on the US science show
> "NOVA". Now he gets drugs that would cost thousands of dollars a week.

Surgery within hours, eh? And drugs costing thousands per week? For years?
Can you give us some more details on his condition?

> So I anted my father's life, and won.
>
> Compare and contrast with the US system, where my doctor has twice
> referred me to chronic pain specialists only to have the insurance company
> turn me down. I've switched insurance companies, but they're all in
> collusion to treat chronic pain sufferers as nothing but whiners. Oh, and
> they wouldn't pay to treat the depression caused by the chronic pain,
> either. They're all a bunch of ****ing *******s, and they have the entire
> US political system in their pockets because politics runs on money, and
> they've made plenty by denying proper medical care even to those lucky
> enough to supposedly have coverage.

Got news for you. You wouldn't fare much better in Canada.
hd

[Montblack]

("Tom S." wrote)
> > I got'ta think the Hamilton duel would pull a 20 share in the
overnights.

> Yeah, but they'd ruin it with repeated slowmo replays, action diagrams,
> endless inane commentary...

Darn it. There's that "inane" word again! It's stalking me.

--
Montblack

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
>
> The *care* is demonstrably better. Fewer lines, etc. The *drug*
> situation is out of control, IMO; the drug companies shifted the cost
> of research onto United States customers (and others), since Canada
> negotiated its way onto some good longterm prices for medicine.
>

Bingo. There are those who would have the US follow Canada along that path.
Who would US drug companies then shift the cost of research onto?

The surest way to increase the cost of anything is to make it "free".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> So when you have a medical condition, you tell people it cost the sum
> total that you and your employer have paid for your medical insurance
> through your entire lifetime? No, you count how much EXTRA you paid
> because of that medical procedure, in copays, drugs, uncovered procedures,
> prosthetics and other costs that you wouldn't have paid if you hadn't had
> it.
>
> In the case of my chronic pain, it's in the tens of thousands. In the
> case of my dad's heart attack, it's zero.
>

You've missed the point. The most expensive health care is "free" health
care.

[Tom S.]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Tom S." wrote)
> > > I got'ta think the Hamilton duel would pull a 20 share in the
> overnights.
>
> > Yeah, but they'd ruin it with repeated slowmo replays, action diagrams,
> > endless inane commentary...
>
> Darn it. There's that "inane" word again! It's stalking me.
>
Did I mention the inane half-time show?

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Ash Wyllie at wrote on
11/18/03 5:51 PM:

> Philip Sondericker opined
>
>> in article , Wdtabor at
>> wrote on 11/17/03 4:27 PM:
>
>>>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>>> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
>>>>> Unbelievable.
>>>>>
>>>>> What a screwed up mess.
>>>>> --
>>>> Now you're catching on!
>>>>
>>>
>>> ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
>>>
>>> Think about that.
>
>> This person has private health insurance companies run his health care, and
>> is currently overwhelmed by mountains of paperwork, staggering cost (which
>> rises by the month), the densest bureaucracy I've ever seen, and managerial
>> incompetence on an epic scale. I've never been one to say that the
>> government should run everything, but I'm genuinely wondering how they could
>> do any worse.
>
> You might ask a veteran about government health care. Was the time to
> treatment from the VA in a recent report 45 days, or 45 months? I can't
> remember at the moment.
>
> -ash
> for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX
>

Then again, without government care, many veterans wouldn't receive any care
at all.

[Ash Wyllie]

Philip Sondericker opined

>in article , Ash Wyllie at wrote on
>11/18/03 5:51 PM:

>> Philip Sondericker opined
>>
>>> in article , Wdtabor at
>>> wrote on 11/17/03 4:27 PM:
>>
>>>>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>>>> news:Zdaub.28610$Dw6.140203@attbi_s02...
>>>>>> Unbelievable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What a screwed up mess.
>>>>>> --
>>>>> Now you're catching on!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ANd some people want the government to run your health care.
>>>>
>>>> Think about that.
>>
>>> This person has private health insurance companies run his health care,
>>> and is currently overwhelmed by mountains of paperwork, staggering cost
>>> (which rises by the month), the densest bureaucracy I've ever seen, and
>>> managerial incompetence on an epic scale. I've never been one to say that
>>> the government should run everything, but I'm genuinely wondering how they
>>> could do any worse.
>>
>> You might ask a veteran about government health care. Was the time to
>> treatment from the VA in a recent report 45 days, or 45 months? I can't
>> remember at the moment.
>>
>> -ash
>> for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX
>>

>Then again, without government care, many veterans wouldn't receive any care
>at all.

Or how about giving every veteran a free first dollar insurance policy good
for any hospital in the US?

-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ash Wyllie wrote:
>
> Or how about giving every veteran a free first dollar insurance policy good
> for any hospital in the US?

Veteran's hospitals exist for several purposes, one of which is to maintain
a pool of medical staff readily available in case of war. Your proposal would
increase the costs of providing health care to veterans and make it impossible
for the military to rapidly expand its rear lines medical facilities.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[David CL Francis]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 at 17:43:10 in message
>, Dave >
wrote:

>Here in the UK healthcare is free at the point of delivery and is accessible
>to everyone. I also have private health insurance provided by my employer
>and that is for when I want non emergency treatment or treatment at my time
>of choosing. For emergencies the National Health Service is as good as it
>gets. For non urgent treatment like a hip replacement there could be a wait
>of up to six months.

This seems a naive picture of the NHS. Some of the reality behind that
is some emergency wards backed up and people lying on trolleys waiting
for hours to get a bed in a hospital.

Many dedicated staff but frustrated by form filling and trying to meet
government imposed 'targets'. Dirty wards with a poor standard of
cleanliness. Treatments rationed in some cases by where you live as your
area budgets won't run to it. Some areas grossly overspent.

Long delays for complex surgery, particularly for the elderly. I know
several people who have spent their savings to get operations done
earlier so as to not to have to wait a year or even 2 years.

On the other hand there are of course many brilliant things that are
done as well, even with an organisation, the largest single employer in
Europe, that has more administrators than Doctors and Nurses.

The hybrid systems In Germany, France and Scandinavia seem to work
better.
--
David CL Francis

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:39:36 +0000, David CL Francis wrote:

>The hybrid systems In Germany, France and Scandinavia seem to work
>better.

a hybrid system in Germany? what'd you mean by that?

for the rest of your 'knowledgeable' post on national health care: yeah!
you sure know how it works in Europe. :-))

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Frank]

Happy Dog wrote:

>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In a previous article, Bob Noel >
>> said:
>> >In article >, (Paul
>> >Tomblin) wrote:
>> >> They can't do a worse job than the beancounters are doing now. Says
> the
>> >> guy who had two doctor ordered treatments turned down by ****ing
> insurance
>> >> companies.
>> >
>> >I don't want to bet your health or life on it. Says the guy working
>> >in the acquisition of systems for the government.
>>
>> I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and it worked
>> pretty damn well.
>
> You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical
> attention was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could
> afford, but
> not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a
> non-emergency
> MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for fun).
> What did you bet on? What was your ante?
>
> le moo

While perhaps interesting for comparison purposes, the availability of
dialysis "just for fun", or any other elective medical procedure isn't
really relavent. I don't care how long one has to wait for that nose job.
What's important is what happens when one is sick/broken and not wealthy.

I've never been treated in Canada but from what I gather the Canadians have
a good system that accomodates most everyone in a humane way. Contrast that
to the US system where if you are middle class or below and get sick you
risk extra trouble from the stress of (real or potential) denial which
could lead to financial ruin. If you're unemployed you may be denied
followup treatment altogether.

I am fully aware that "free" health care promotes abuse. People should have
a stake in their own treatment's cost when they are able to pay. But the
notion that just about everyone in the US is one major illness away from
financial ruin is what's wrong here.

Getting sick is bad enough, but adding to the suffering so drug companies
and HMO's can make big profits is wrong. Add the fact that these same
entities more or less wrote the laws by buying off the Congress and it
becomes downright immoral.

Again, don't get me wrong - I don't begrudge any legitimate business a
profit, but the drug companies are out of control. Their profits are
obscene and way beyond what they need to recover research costs. Their
manipulation of the various patent laws topped off with their misleading
advertising costs all of us.
--
Frank....H

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Frank > said:
>I am fully aware that "free" health care promotes abuse. People should have
>a stake in their own treatment's cost when they are able to pay. But the
>notion that just about everyone in the US is one major illness away from
>financial ruin is what's wrong here.

A good friend of mine has cancer. She's been living and working in the US
for several years, and bought a house here. She's unable to work because
of the cancer, and her COBRA is just about to run out. The hospital she
is currently confined to plans to chuck her out on the street because they
don't take Medicare patients. So add to the stress of being bedridden
with probably terminal cancer, she has to arrange to sell her house and
move back to Canada because it's the only way to get decent cancer
treatment.

The US system ****ing sucks.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I didn't know it was impossible when I did it."

[Dennis O'Connor]

Solution: We all move to Canada, Paul, and the bankrupt Canadian welfare
system will make us all healthy and beautiful....

Denny

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in > The US system ****ing sucks.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Dennis O'Connor" > said:
>Solution: We all move to Canada, Paul, and the bankrupt Canadian welfare
>system will make us all healthy and beautiful....

Or you could stay in a country that condems people to die because they're
not wealthy.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Deciding to precipitate the disaster, I have donned my copper armour,
filled a fire bucket, and wired myself to all the important swervers.
-- A fatalistic BOFH

[David Brooks]

"Frank" > wrote in message
...
> I am fully aware that "free" health care promotes abuse.

The experience of countries where it is "free" is that it doesn't.

Note for Steve McNicholl - yes I know it's not free. Can we just agree to
call it "free" in the same way as you get highways and a police service for
"free".

It's possible that the lack of abuse is because of the different attitudes
in other countries. In the US, there is more of a tendency to the belief
that people should get what they can pay for, and choice should drive the
design of the systems. In other English-speaking countries, health care in
particular is held as a common good, and you are more likely to hear Joe
Public concerned about "the old people, the poor people" than themselves.
I'm talking about the center of gravity here; of course there are individual
exceptions. As usual, there are these unexamined deep differences that make
the more superficial arguments sound like shouting past each other.

It's also possible that British and Canadian hospitals are so ghastly that
nobody in their right mind would want to spend an unnecessary moment in
them, while Americans are all hypochondriacs who love to spend time reading
magazine in their local hospitotel, and want a fistful of pills every time
they find a speck of wax in their ears or lint in their bellybuttons.

-- David Brooks

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> Note for Steve McNicholl - yes I know it's not free.
>

Do you also know it costs more where it's "free"?

[David Brooks]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Note for Steve McNicholl - yes I know it's not free.
> >
>
> Do you also know it costs more where it's "free"?

Please share. I have never ever ever seen a factual economic-based
comparison between the US, Canadian and British systems, from any side of
the argument, where that is true. The overhead involved in keeping all those
insurance company droids and doctors' billing agents employed far outweighs
any inefficiencies of single-payer. The British system also throws in a
well-integrated system of paramedicals (health visitors, nurse
practitioners) and outreach (like the 200-lb District Nurse battering your
door down to give your baby a wellness check) for "free".

-- David Brooks

[[email protected]]

Happy Dog wrote:
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In a previous article, "Happy Dog" > said:
> > >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> I bet the first 35 years of my life on the Canadian system, and
it
> worked
> > >> pretty damn well.
> > >
> > >You ever need dialysis? Ever wonder what you would do if medical
> attention
> > >was available (for the person of your choice) and that you could
afford,
> but
> > >not allowed? Examples of this situation abound. Try to get a
> non-emergency
> > >MRI in Toronto within a year. Try to get dialysis (even just for
fun).
> > >What did you bet on? What was your ante?
> >
> > My father had a heart attack a few years ago, near Toronto.
>
> That's hardly a non-emergency condition.
>
> > He got MRIs,
> > CAT scans, and surgery, all within a few hours. He was operated on
by a
> > world famous cardiac surgeon who has been profiled on the US
science show
> > "NOVA". Now he gets drugs that would cost thousands of dollars a
week.
>
> Surgery within hours, eh? And drugs costing thousands per week? For
years?
> Can you give us some more details on his condition?
>
> > So I anted my father's life, and won.
> >
> > Compare and contrast with the US system, where my doctor has twice
> > referred me to chronic pain specialists only to have the insurance
company
> > turn me down. I've switched insurance companies, but they're all
in
> > collusion to treat chronic pain sufferers as nothing but whiners.
Oh, and
> > they wouldn't pay to treat the depression caused by the chronic
pain,
> > either. They're all a bunch of ****ing *******s, and they have the
entire
> > US political system in their pockets because politics runs on
money, and
> > they've made plenty by denying proper medical care even to those
lucky
> > enough to supposedly have coverage.
>
> Got news for you. You wouldn't fare much better in Canada.
> hd



Based on, exactly, what? Do you work for Transport Canada, Nav Canada?
Let's
hear it big mouth...

Zee