....what about older 121.5 ELT's

[hretting]

Good question on the Transponder below this thread which leads me to
ponder.....
any good at all leaving the old ELT in until I switch over to the new
( ya...I know....procrastination(?)) system?
I'm thinking of SPOT....how about SPOT+old ELT, or if I get SPOT,
would a new ELT be necessary.
The pressure is on me big time to come out of my cave and open up some
Mayonase jars buried in the back yard and accept the inevitable....BIG
SCREEN NAVS, SPOT, FLARM, ILLEGAL ARTIFICIAL HORIZONS, GN4.0, INFLIGHT
DATA TRANSFER, IMPOTENCE, CONDOR II......and on and on....
I was just getting the hang of 'cut and paste'.
Time to spend the money.
So...back to the ELT question...seriously
R

[Tony[_5_]]

On Friday, April 27, 2012 10:38:02 AM UTC-5, hretting wrote:
> Good question on the Transponder below this thread which leads me to
> ponder.....
> any good at all leaving the old ELT in until I switch over to the new
> ( ya...I know....procrastination(?)) system?
> I'm thinking of SPOT....how about SPOT+old ELT, or if I get SPOT,
> would a new ELT be necessary.
> The pressure is on me big time to come out of my cave and open up some
> Mayonase jars buried in the back yard and accept the inevitable....BIG
> SCREEN NAVS, SPOT, FLARM, ILLEGAL ARTIFICIAL HORIZONS, GN4.0, INFLIGHT
> DATA TRANSFER, IMPOTENCE, CONDOR II......and on and on....
> I was just getting the hang of 'cut and paste'.
> Time to spend the money.
> So...back to the ELT question...seriously
> R

Your ELT will go off when you crash. Since it is an old one the Satellite will not hear it but since you are a good pilot and don't fly off into the distance without telling anyone, surely someone will report you missing. Then the CAP will start looking for you and especially if you told someone your expected route they will start looking for your ELT.

SPOT is a great tool but it is not a replacement for an ELT, mostly because you have to be alive and semi-conscious to activate it.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, April 27, 2012 9:17:34 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Friday, April 27, 2012 10:38:02 AM UTC-5, hretting wrote:
> > Good question on the Transponder below this thread which leads me to
> > ponder.....
> > any good at all leaving the old ELT in until I switch over to the new
> > ( ya...I know....procrastination(?)) system?
> > I'm thinking of SPOT....how about SPOT+old ELT, or if I get SPOT,
> > would a new ELT be necessary.
> > The pressure is on me big time to come out of my cave and open up some
> > Mayonase jars buried in the back yard and accept the inevitable....BIG
> > SCREEN NAVS, SPOT, FLARM, ILLEGAL ARTIFICIAL HORIZONS, GN4.0, INFLIGHT
> > DATA TRANSFER, IMPOTENCE, CONDOR II......and on and on....
> > I was just getting the hang of 'cut and paste'.
> > Time to spend the money.
> > So...back to the ELT question...seriously
> > R
>
> Your ELT will go off when you crash. Since it is an old one the Satellite will not hear it but since you are a good pilot and don't fly off into the distance without telling anyone, surely someone will report you missing. Then the CAP will start looking for you and especially if you told someone your expected route they will start looking for your ELT.
>
> SPOT is a great tool but it is not a replacement for an ELT, mostly because you have to be alive and semi-conscious to activate it.

Uh your ELT *might* go off when you crash. That's one of the large issues of ELTs. With something maybe as poor as 15% correct activation rate in GA aircraft crashes, and possibly worse in gliders I would not rely on an ELT activating and would certainly hope I can reach the ELT and manually activate it if possible (and hopefully have a removable antenna (as some ELTs come with) in case the antenna is damaged, or glider upside down etc.

A SPOT tracker can be appealing for lots of reasons, including that in track mode (how most glider pilots seem to use it) you do *not* need to manually activate it to provide last know position information. While not an instant alert, the 10 minute automatic position reports give a pretty good initial search radius (especially when using flight direction info).

Pilots may want to combine different technologies like SPOT and an ELT or PLB. I choose to fly with both a SPOT and a 406MHz+GPS PLB, I especially like the PLB/SARSAT backup to SPOT and the 121.5 MHz homing beacon that the PLB for final homing by SAR organizations (even if it is lower power than a full ELT).

Darryl

[kirk.stant]

If you already have a working 121.5 ELT, might as well keep it until it dies or you replace it with a 406 ELT.

SPOT is a really good complement to any ELT, because (if used in tracking mode, which is the logical way to use it) it allows real time monitoring of your flight (wifey loves that), and leaves a trail to follow if you don't show up... Downside of SPOT is that if you smack a mountain, it won't send a "come get me!" message; you have to survive to do that.

Ditto with the fancy 406 + GPS PLBs - they are great if you need rescue - but they are not ELTs; they (just like the SPOT basic service) need to be activated by the survivor to be of any use. But if you go down, it could be a lifesaver!

Best setup (IMHO) is an ELT (preferably a new 406, but 121.5 will do) in the glider, a SPOT (with tracking enabled) in the glider or on your chute, and a 406 GPS PLB securely attached to your parachute harness.

Kirk
66
(I've got the 121.5 ELT and SPOT w/tracking)

[John Clear]

In article <30263873.0.1335547569413.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbboj7>,
kirk.stant > wrote:
>
>Ditto with the fancy 406 + GPS PLBs - they are great if you need rescue
>- but they are not ELTs; they (just like the SPOT basic service) need to
>be activated by the survivor to be of any use. But if you go down, it
>could be a lifesaver!

A PLB is just a manually operated ELT/EPIRB.

I carry this one:

http://www.aeromedix.com/ACR-Resqlink-406MHz-Personal-Locator-Beacon-GPS.html

It is about the size of a cell phone, and I use a cell phone case
to keep it on my belt.

When I was in CAP, we'd call ELTs ballast. When you need it, there
is high failure rate. The 15% activation rate in crashes mentioned
up thread is quite possibly optimistic. A stat I saw was that 99%
of ELT/EPIRB activations were false alarms. Chasing the UPS truck
at 2am is one of the reasons I left CAP.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, April 27, 2012 11:40:27 AM UTC-7, John Clear wrote:
> In article <30263873.0.1335547569413.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbboj7>,
> kirk.stant > wrote:
> >
> >Ditto with the fancy 406 + GPS PLBs - they are great if you need rescue
> >- but they are not ELTs; they (just like the SPOT basic service) need to
> >be activated by the survivor to be of any use. But if you go down, it
> >could be a lifesaver!
>
> A PLB is just a manually operated ELT/EPIRB.
>
> I carry this one:
>
> http://www.aeromedix.com/ACR-Resqlink-406MHz-Personal-Locator-Beacon-GPS.html
>
> It is about the size of a cell phone, and I use a cell phone case
> to keep it on my belt.
>
> When I was in CAP, we'd call ELTs ballast. When you need it, there
> is high failure rate. The 15% activation rate in crashes mentioned
> up thread is quite possibly optimistic. A stat I saw was that 99%
> of ELT/EPIRB activations were false alarms. Chasing the UPS truck
> at 2am is one of the reasons I left CAP.
>
> John
> --
> John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/


Two different but worrisome stats. 15% or so is the correct activation rate when you need it, i.e. the device activates after a crash (but even if corect for GA I suspect its lower in sailplanes because of the poor/incorrect installations I've seen and the low energy of some glider crashes). The 99% or so is the percent or false activations. Both numbers are very rough but probalby give a reasonable feel of the issues here. The high-false activation rate of ELTs is why a old style 121.5 MHz only ELT signal won't necessarily result in a search -- unless people are reporting you missing and local SAR folks are searching. I expect many of us have seen the CAP folks turn up at a gliderport looking for an old ELT going off in a trailer or some other similar thing, a complete and utter waste of their time.

I encourage folks to use a SPOT and an 406 MHz ELT or PLB. If you already have a 121.5 Mhz ELT and don't want to upgrade, at least know its limitations (including no SARSAT detection and no guarantee of automatic search). With ELT mounting and antenna issues, poor crash activation rates and desire to be able to manually activate with a separate antenna is the glider is upside down/antenna damaged etc. I've decided I'd rather have a SPOT mounted on the glider and a PLB on my parachute (instead of an ELT in the glider). Of course if you can find a way to do a SPOT and both and ELT and PLB...

Darryl

[Dan Marotta]

I just went to the aeromedix website to investigate. My wife and I are
hikers and I fly over remote areas of New Mexico and Colorado. I just
ordered two of these.

> A PLB is just a manually operated ELT/EPIRB.
>
> I carry this one:
>
> http://www.aeromedix.com/ACR-Resqlink-406MHz-Personal-Locator-Beacon-GPS.html
>

[hretting]

Lots of good information, ideas, and my exisiting ELT does have an
activation switch on the panel. I will make upgrading to the 406 with
a panel activation switch a priority and the PLB mentioned above has
my interest. My wife is totally not interested in knowing where I am,
only that my life insurance is sufficent. Can't blame her really.
Still on the fence pondering SPOT.
R

[Hagbard Celine]

Whenever I've investigated ELT's the stats mentioned above always made
me question their value. I've also found that they seem to fail the
annual test at the avionics shop with distressing frequency. Hopefully
the new 406 units will be better (given how much they cost they damn
well should be!). However, I have noticed with several of them that if
you were to try and install them in accordance with the manufacturers
instructions then the stated ground plane requirement could cause
difficulties on non metal gliders. For example the ACK E-04 which is
supposed to be a direct replacement for the ELT's in my club's gliders
specifies a four foot diameter ground plane for the supplied antenna.

I've never found any stats for it but I also kind of wonder just how
often it happens that a crash occurs which A: leaves the ELT in
functioning condition and B: leaves the pilot alive but too
incapacitated to manually trigger a beacon.

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, April 27, 2012 9:41:42 PM UTC-5, hretting wrote:
> Lots of good information, ideas, and my exisiting ELT does have an
> activation switch on the panel. I will make upgrading to the 406 with
> a panel activation switch a priority and the PLB mentioned above has
> my interest. My wife is totally not interested in knowing where I am,
> only that my life insurance is sufficent. Can't blame her really.
> Still on the fence pondering SPOT.
> R

Aside from spousal tracking, SPOT is valuable if you fly XC in areas where you might landout and there may not be any cell phone coverage. With just the basic service, you can send an "I'm OK" or a "I landed out, please come get me, I'm at this location (shown on google maps)". Or "HELP, I'm hurt, send the cavalry!" So think of it as a manually activated ELT with additional functions. Not bad for $150.

And you can use it when hiking, boating, etc., since it's not attached to your glider.

IMO, probably the most valuable bit of equipment in your survival kit.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 28, 2012 9:18:23 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, April 27, 2012 9:41:42 PM UTC-5, hretting wrote:
> > Lots of good information, ideas, and my exisiting ELT does have an
> > activation switch on the panel. I will make upgrading to the 406 with
> > a panel activation switch a priority and the PLB mentioned above has
> > my interest. My wife is totally not interested in knowing where I am,
> > only that my life insurance is sufficent. Can't blame her really.
> > Still on the fence pondering SPOT.
> > R
>
> Aside from spousal tracking, SPOT is valuable if you fly XC in areas where you might landout and there may not be any cell phone coverage. With just the basic service, you can send an "I'm OK" or a "I landed out, please come get me, I'm at this location (shown on google maps)". Or "HELP, I'm hurt, send the cavalry!" So think of it as a manually activated ELT with additional functions. Not bad for $150.
>
> And you can use it when hiking, boating, etc., since it's not attached to your glider.
>
> IMO, probably the most valuable bit of equipment in your survival kit.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kirk,

Just a small correction: The 'OK' function is used for "I'm OK - Still Flying" by those who are too cheap to pay for tracking. The 'HELP' function is typically used for the "NOT hurt, but landed out - please bring the trailer" message. If you ARE hurt in any significant way, it is MUCH better to activate the '911' function, which will result in IMMEDIATE (assuming no or negative response at the listed emergency contact number) dispatch of the nearest 911 response team. Typical emergency response times to '911' activation are typically in the 1-2 hour range, even in very remote areas.

IMHO, you are *way* better off with a SPOT tracker (with basic + tracking service) than with anything else. Even 406MHz ELT/PLB activation has to work its way up through the Air Force hierarchy and then back down again to the local authorities. With SPOT, it goes directly to GEOS (a commercial emergency-response outfit) and they direct the local response.

Full disclosure: I am part-owner of Hawke Tracking, and we sell SPOT tracker mapping services to contests and other activities for ridiculously low prices. At the current revenue levels, I'm on track for getting my new Antares 20E --- tail wheel -- in another couple of years ;-).

Frank (TA)

[WaltWX[_2_]]

I recently reviewed my Discus 2A ELT installation. The Ack Technology E-01 121.5 mounted internally had a badly cracked battery box (eight D batteries), so I removed it. Fortunately, you can replace the the battery box for $32... which I did, then re-installed the ELT.

Agree with Daryl Ramm's comments. Since I always fly with a SPOT, the older 121.5 ELT crash activated (...although I wouldn't count on it...) is my solution for now. If it wasn't for the $600 to upgrade to the E-04 406Mhz unit, I would have probably done that. Problem is, there is really no GOOD place to put a 406Mhz antenna anywhere (or 121.5Mhz for that matter). Currently, my 121.5Mhz antenna is a "rubber ducky" mounted horizontally below my right shoulder along the base of the canopy frame. I know this isn't very good... but it's probably better than nothing.

After talking with ACK Technologies tech support engineers it was mentioned that you can "...get away with..." a short dipole in the cockpit. They cannot certify it for the FCC or FAA use (It will probably fail the test because of a too high SWR ratio). However, it was mentioned that the signal will likely get out to the SARSAT satellite. For example, one of their E-04 units got activated during a test WITHOUT AN ANTENNA CONNECTED to the BNC connector. Nonetheless, the signal got to the satellite and they received a call from SARSAT. There is a way of testing your 406 ELT system. For $60/yr , you can subscribe to www.406link.com and receive an email/text message if the message is received by SARSAT. So, in summary... the 406 installed ELT is attractive and it can be fully tested.

One note about my SPOT. I used to fly with it on my shoulder harness at the shoulder at a 45deg angle. In that location, I lost maybe 30 per cent of the messages going out in tracking mode. Only when I relocated it to a horizontally on the panel cover forward, did the drop out rate lower to 3-5 per cent.

Walt Rogers, WX

[Todd]

I fly (and hike) with a McMurdo FastFind PLB. Small and cheaper than
the ACR, but any good PLB is better than none should you bail out and
end up on the other side of the mountain range from your glider! My
PLB is attached in a "safe" location on my chute (i.e. not over any
risers)

My glider has a 121.5 ELT too.

And lastly, as an amateur radio operator, I have an APRS radio
( http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&ts=1311292800&te=1311379200&call=a%2FN8RNW-6
) that automatically transmits my position every few minutes or so
(position, speed and altitude) so my crew can follow my progress.
(Click on the little red dots for track info) Coverage in the areas I
have flown seems very good (especially at altitude) See http://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg
for a radio option.

If a bad event happens, one or all 3 of these should help speed my
rescue.