Bible-beater pilots

[Jay Honeck]

Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled, it
was off to...where?

Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and Wisconsin
Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
the way!

Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC from
10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for us.
To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.

After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in the
back and all rode over together.

The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly. As
we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.

In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.

Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that it
was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.

It was not to be.

As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into what
church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
religion when they reached the age of reason.

This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
waters.

The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether we
had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we did.
I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.

This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with the
Koran.

Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the
heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare"
feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in
disbelief.

Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be "saved"?
I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that I
didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I only
had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to Jesus
Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
prayer aloud with him?"

The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in that
casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand firmly
on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of some
way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.

Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal, and
felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was simply
no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
income to the church...

At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
"interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.

Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as if
he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an observation
that made us laugh out loud.

We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back, or
risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
to go back to the airport" when he got back.

His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then it
was *our* turn to laugh!

Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and sheer
tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck. We
realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps removed
from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
only difference being their hair style and their dogma.

Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


Did ya get their N number? If so I'll paint it on the ramp at PDC with a
warning next time we are there. Wonder what they would have said had you
questioned them about being in a casino?

[john smith]

Does this mean next year's Prayer Meeting Party at your campsite at
Oshkosh is canceled?
Or will each swallow of cold beer be followed by "Amen" or "Praise the
Lord"?

[Jay Honeck]

> Does this mean next year's Prayer Meeting Party at your campsite at
> Oshkosh is canceled?

The closest I get to a prayer meeting in OSH is when I start praying that
the yodeler chokes on his Zaug's breakfast before morning...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Anonymous]

Jay Honeck wrote:

<snip>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Jay, I have a lot of respect for people who are comfortable with their
religion, as I am not. However, in this case I would have excused
myself from the table without another word.

People who feel they must force their beliefs on me are not showing me
respect, therefore it is not hard for me to return the gesture.

--
Peter
Still anonymous...









----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[John Harlow]

Lol - it might behoove them to actually read that bible they supposedly live
by.

Next time tell them you do not wish to be required to hate your family (Luke
14:26)

nor be required to give away your airplane and all your other worldly
posessions (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33)
nor sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)

etc.. etc..

It makes sense you are a heathen Jay, as God made you evil because you are
bald (Jeremiah 47:5) - so you really can't help yourself.


It sounds like you might like http://www.ffrf.org

Or http://landoverbaptist.org

[L Smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
>every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
>enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
>rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have a
>hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
>but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
>thing.
>
>Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
You (and I) need to be careful about how we talk about this, and make
sure it's clear
that the "ignorance" and "rudeness" refers to how your companions tried
to force their
religion on you, and not on the fact that they are believers.

Having said that, in a similar situation I would at first try to be
polite. I would tell them
that I have my own set of beliefs and that they may or may not be
consistent with
their beliefs, that I am comfortable in my beliefs, and that I don't
feel anything would
be accomplished by continuing the present direction of the conversation.
If they persist,
I would tell them flat out that I'm sorry, but it's apparent they aren't
interested in a
mutual conversation, and that I do not have the inclination to have
someone else's
religion forced down my throat.

I would not worry about whether my last remark offended them, because
it really isn't
going to change their opinion of you. As far as they are concerned,
unless you agree
completely with their beliefs and practice the same rituals, your damned
to hell anyway.
You could be the Pope, but it doesn't make any difference to them - you
don't believe
in "the one true way", so you're damned. It's kind of frightening to
think how similar
they are to the radical Islamic fundamentalists, but it's even more
frightening to realize
that they don't see the similarities.

[Mike Rapoport]

Sorry about the bad lunch companions. We have these people around here too.
They are the only ones wearing ties in north Idaho so they are pretty easy
to avoid. Tell them you are Catholic or Jewish and they will give up. It
would be more fun to convince them that you are a Druid but it is easier to
convince people that you belong to a less exotic religion.

Mike
MU-2

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[John E. Carty]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:d5gvb.262620$Fm2.278685@attbi_s04...
> > Does this mean next year's Prayer Meeting Party at your campsite at
> > Oshkosh is canceled?
>
> The closest I get to a prayer meeting in OSH is when I start praying that
> the yodeler chokes on his Zaug's breakfast before morning...
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

One of my favorite prayers:
http://home.austin.rr.com/johncarty/images/drglrg.gif

[Cecil E. Chapman]

> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck

I generally try the 'throw oneself down on the floor and start spinning in
circles while spitting pea soup all-around' approach, that USUALLY gets 'em
headed for the door - unless I try this in Berkeley, California, across the
S.F. Bay from me; then they just assume I'm a street performer. <GRIN> ;-)

Seriously, though, I just excuse myself from their company when they start
to take advantage of my politeness/civility, as their protheleltising,
progresses.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com

[Ian]

> > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to it.

It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how being
raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the good
news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are people
there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important, not
the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your choice.
It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever religion
you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should have
listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
good person, then you've got it all backwards.

Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has provided
some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look like,
where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance in
your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real POH.
It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept. From
the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes each
of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and Him,
nobody else. What is it going to be ?

[Chris Hoffmann]

Just praying at the home dinner table is becoming something of an
anachronism these days, but there are still families (like mine) who do pray
before dinner at restaurants. I can't say that that applies at McDonald's,
because we hardly ever have a sit down dinner at a fast food restaurant, but
if we bring home some KFC, yes we set the table and say grace.

I've had similar experiences - twice in college, once in a mall parking lot.
Sometimes it's enough to tell them my father is a minister (which he is),
but other times they do what your two gentlemen did. All you can do is
excuse yourself and go elsewhere. Some people take the "go ye therefore and
teach all nations" line a BIT too seriously. I think it's great that they
have placed such importance on the souls of others, but badgering a person
isn't the way to convert the masses.

As I said, Dad's a minister, and he would be appalled by behavior like that.
I never asked him why he of all people wouldn't appreciate zeal like that,
but then in all the bible studies I had as a kid, not once did Christ go
seeking out people to convert. They came to Him, and perhaps that's how it
should be.

[Yossarian]

Jay apparently one of them has followed you back here. The bible is the
real POH. I looked but couldn't find the weight and balance section. Give
me a break.

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to
it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how
being
> raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
> Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the
good
> news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
> you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
> and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
> hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
> casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
> they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are
people
> there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important,
not
> the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
> its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your
choice.
> It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever
religion
> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should
have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
> children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
> If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
> good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has
provided
> some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look
like,
> where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
> living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
> and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance
in
> your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real
POH.
> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept.
From
> the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
> exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes
each
> of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
> entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and
Him,
> nobody else. What is it going to be ?
>
>

[Mateo]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart


Ever look at the front page of an Ac-u-Kwik book?

[John Gaquin]

Jay.....
Such aggressive proselytizing is rude at best, but not all that uncommon.
The fault, however, for allowing them to ruin your lunch is yours alone.
From your narrative, I'd guess you could have left that table having only
wasted five minutes.

There are many of us that were raised "hyper-catholic", to use your phrase,
but not many still carry such a large chip on their shoulder as you. You
really ought to learn to get by all that. It's pretty sad that you can
allow a couple of one-issue old guys to ruin a couple of days of your life.

JG

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message

> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!),

[Ben Jackson]

In article et>,
Mike Rapoport > wrote:
>convince people that you belong to a less exotic religion.

I just tell people that I'm devoutly Myopic.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Peter]

John Harlow wrote:

> Lol - it might behoove them to actually read that bible they supposedly live
> by.
>
> Next time tell them you do not wish to be required to hate your family (Luke
> 14:26)
>
> nor be required to give away your airplane and all your other worldly
> posessions (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33)
> nor sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)

Excellent. But considering the nice Mooney they had back at the airport,
Jay might also have reminded them of Luke 6:30 ("Give to everyone who asks
of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back") and
then made a request for the plane.

[BTIZ]

when ever approached... be more zealous then they area.. be affirmative..
and try to convert them to your beliefs.. they'll run away.. or stop
talking..

yes.. I am "saved".. I don't attend a "Structured church"... but I do thank
god every day I fly.. that I have the knowledge and the capability to enjoy
his world.. and to see it in ways that no other man can.. and I lead a
respectful pleasant life...

my mother-in-law thinks I walk on water.. I just don't let her see my wet
sandals..

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Montblack]

For Cr....
For Cr....
For Cr...
For "crying out loud" Dave, snip your posts!

I couldn't say it, for I too was raised Catholic (I'm 5 out of 7 ...hoping
to hook up with 7 of 9 some day)


<some thoughts and *snips* from Jay's post>

> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney.


No forward CG issues this flight? That's a rhetorical question - let's move
on to the buffet line.


> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church.


Try the line: I used to be a mackerel snapper, but traded my knee pads in
years ago. (Don't know why I think that's so funny, I just do)

Funny story about friends and attending church on Easter Sunday. Young
family was with *his* parents on this Easter morning. Young daughter pipes
up - we're going to Church because someone is getting married. My friends
were busted.


>I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.


Hey kids, First Day of Advent (the Sunday which is closest to November 30)
is still available!! All your friends will be there.


> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom!


The answer was there, right in front of you - Buffet baby!!

All kidding aside, when I'm in that situation, I very politely (hedging my
bets) thank them for their interest in my soul, and then excuse myself,
unless they want to talk about something else besides eternal salvation.

Next time try something like - Say, how bout them Packers? 8-8 just might
win the division this year. Of course they'll need a miracle to make it to
the Super Bowl. Say, you two fellas do any Angel Flights? Heavens to Betsy,
look at the time - gottogo. Bye.

Pilots are just like everyone else: Some have *found* God. Some are still
searching, and some have never lost him to begin with. :-)

Yup, they don't make Jews like Jesus anymore.

--
Montblack
(Former alter boy, working on my repressed memory skills - I think I might
have been touched, maybe once, by our priest ...six figure check please!!)

[Lenny Toulson]

"Ian" > wrote in message

>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance.
> ...there are people there like you who need to hear it.
> ...Your rejection of the message does not
> diminish its truth. ...So far, you are lost. If
> you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to
> be a good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Isn't it time you quit
> worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back and sought out some real
> meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance in your life ?
> ...The only difference
> is in how long it takes each of us to figure it out and make the
> single most important decision your entire life. To accept Jesus or
> reject him.

No moral guidance? Needs to hear the message? Truth? Lost? Got it
backwards? Worshiping the plane? Real guidance? Most important decision?


Wow.

Just out of curiosity: What puts you in a position to judge his moral
guidance (or lack thereof)? I suppose you'll say that Christian morality is
the only correct morality, right?

Why does he *need* to hear the message? I suppose you like the idea of
email spam, too. After all, one has only to determine that we *need* to
hear the message to make it acceptable, right?

How do you account for the billions of "souls" who are not Christian yet
seem to live good lives? (By "good" I mean doing things that Christians
claim to do like charity, treating others with respect, living by their
version of the Ten Commandments.)

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?

Christianity isn't the only game in town - and the other leagues have some
pretty solid players, too.

--
Lenny Toulson

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-20 19:21:26 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > said

--snipped a whole lot of stuff that really didn't need to be said, especially in an aviation newsgroup -

My goodness, Jay. Get a grip.

[Jeff]

LOL...you asked for it...
you ready to move to sin city yet (las vegas)
:)

There isnt a church anywhere near where I live, we have 4 new sports bars in my
neighborhood, but no churches.


Jay Honeck wrote:

> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled, it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly. As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be "saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal, and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back, or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck. We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Yossarian" wrote)
> real POH. I looked but couldn't find the weight and balance section.
Give
> me a break.


Prety level headed volley - well thought out presentation of his point
of view. I liked Ian's post.

"Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back..."
That was almost Marty, Marty, Marty funny. <g>

Now, whether I agree with Ian, or not, is another matter.

--
Montblack

[Jim Weir]

's' funny, he doesn't LOOK Druish.

Jim


"Mike Rapoport" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

- It
->would be more fun to convince them that you are a Druid


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Ian wrote:

> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance.
<<snip a whole lot more religious drivel>>

Lack of religious conviction != lack of morals.

The arrogant assuption that having religion equals having morals can be
refuted just by accessing any news source or history book. For example,
it's likely that whoever just carbombed Istanbul had plenty of religion -
but they didn't have an iota of morals.

Likewise those good "Christian" knights in the First Crusade who
slaughtered most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Lots of religion, no
morals.

Some of us use adult, rational thought to arrive at a moral framework,
instead of selected mistranslated passages from a book of tribal
mythology.

> Feel free to continue denying God,

Thank you, I shall. I stopped really believing in fairy tales when I was
eight or so, after all. None of you folks have any proof for your claims,
that I've seen.

> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept.

Some of us do quite nicely without Jesus, or any other invisible friend.
There is no "concept" that I or anyone else needs to "get used to", sir.

Right... I was going to post something mildly amusing about Jay's
unfortunate encounter, but this twit pushed several of my buttons at
once...

An athiest has no invisible means of support. (Actually, I consider myself
an agnostic. Religion might be correct, but some actual proof would be
nice to see...)

Irritated,

Brian.

[Mike Rhodes]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:


>
>Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Run like hell? Seriously.
I'm a Christian, but don't walk through life looking for souls to,
in but a moment, 'save.' And I have difficulty with those who would
want to so quickly take authority over mine and claim a personal
victory; in the name of righteousness (which I do respect). Their
pushiness takes on a predatory nature I would want to stay away from,
of course. Preachers to the soul have much to prove if they expect
(_tactically demand_) to have that kind of influence on me!
As for wanting to run, I am the emotional type, but also not the
wordy type. So a casual change in conversation (getting a proper
'grip,' as written in previous replies) is not likely with me either.
I would probably just say nothing, letting the conversation trail off
uncomfortably until they changed the subject or left, or I got the
courage and just left on my own.
As for my salvation, it is not in doubt with me, but they always
seem to want to take it from me with their preferred method. I'm
nearly always convinced from the start it is they who need help (and
are in no ways open to it); having bared fangs long enough to bite and
not let go. Consider the conversation as lost, then play dead till
someone leaves. That's my advice.

Mike,

There are other approaches under different circumstances, and previous
posters indicated they wanted to leave those options open. I agree,
but this post hit a nerve. If the conversational tactics are
pressured, abnormal, then make it hurt for them also. They need to
learn a lesson or two.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>

Stand up for YOUR beliefs - or non-beliefs. It's the only way. If they
have the freedom to have their view - and they should - then it is your
right to have your own. Try to end the discussion by allowing that
people have different opinions about this, yours differs from theirs,
and you'd rather discuss something else.

That's one way. The other, of course, is trying to convince them. Just
like a good newsgroup discussion. Good luck! ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Lenny,

> Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
> religion?
>

That was the case in the vast majority of wars, I would say. Of course,
in most, religion was just a cover for power mongering - but that seems
to be common in religion anyway.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Scet]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

To be perfectly honest with you Jay, most of my colleagues and myself
are/were under the impression that most Americans are very religious, you
know God bless America and all that stuff, where it is the opposite in
Australia. In saying that, it surprises me that you aren't. I am not
religious myself.

When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but to
"debate" if you like, the existance of God and the hipocracy of the various
churches around the world. I don't let it become personal or childish but it
invariably ends in the religious person having no answer but the old
"Because it is Gods way/wish" or what ever. But that's just me Jay, there
are times when I'll be straight to the point and say I'm not interested
thank you, and adopt the speak to the hand pose. I think they should be
treated like telemarketers. Keep it short and straight to the point, but
give it to them right back, it's your free time and if your like me, they
don't come very often, don't let it be spoiled by misdirected people. If
they stop talking and the silence is awkward, let them know that you won't
be offended if they move to another table.

Scet

[Wdtabor]

>
>Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>--

Well, when the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses come to my door, I find it works
well to ask them to come back at a time when my wife and my Mistress can both
be present to hear them.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Jay Honeck]

> nor be required to give away your airplane and all your other worldly
> posessions (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33)
> nor sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)

I'm always impressed with how you guys can DO that. How the HECK do you
remember the verses and chapters in such detail?

Of course, I'll bet you can't recite the 1963 version of the Catholic mass
aloud...so nyah! :-)

> It makes sense you are a heathen Jay, as God made you evil because you are
> bald (Jeremiah 47:5) - so you really can't help yourself.

At last -- a viable excuse! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Sorry about the bad lunch companions. We have these people around here
too.

You have PILOT proselytizers?

I'd never seen one before. Hope I never meet one again.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

At first, Ian, I truly thought your post was a marvelous, well-spun parody
of what I lived through at the casino.

Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down an
off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.

Is that possible?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to
it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how
being
> raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
> Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the
good
> news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
> you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
> and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
> hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
> casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
> they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are
people
> there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important,
not
> the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
> its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your
choice.
> It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever
religion
> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should
have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
> children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
> If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
> good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has
provided
> some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look
like,
> where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
> living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
> and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance
in
> your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real
POH.
> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept.
From
> the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
> exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes
each
> of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
> entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and
Him,
> nobody else. What is it going to be ?
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.
>
> Is that possible?
>

Uh, no. Look at that sentence above again. It's a contradiction. By
definition, there is nothing scientific about beliefs. That's why they
are beliefs, not knowledge.

If you look at the big question of Life, the Universe and Everything
scientifically, at some point you'll have to live with the answer: "I
don't know." Many people are terribly afraid of that (possibly a
variant of "Nature abhors vacuum" ;-)). So they make something up.
That's called religion. Others then exploit that and use it to exert
power over their fellow humans. That's called a church or a religious
community. This simple explanation works for all religions I know of.

Of course, if indeed I should end up standing in front of St. Peter or
Jesus on Judgement Day, it will be a major "Oops"-moment. ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> Just praying at the home dinner table is becoming something of an
> anachronism these days, but there are still families (like mine) who do
pray
> before dinner at restaurants. I can't say that that applies at McDonald's,
> because we hardly ever have a sit down dinner at a fast food restaurant,
but
> if we bring home some KFC, yes we set the table and say grace.

When we eat a sit-down meal at home (increasingly rare these days) we ALWAYS
say a prayer, mostly out of tradition but also because it's simply a nice
thing to do.

When I was growing up, my family sat stoically at the table and recited the
old "Bless us, oh Lord..." prayer.

Mary's family, on the other hand, always joined hands, and said the "God is
great, God is good..." prayer.

As a result, in our family we now all join hands, and say BOTH prayers --
even though we do not practice any organized religion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've had similar experiences - twice in college, once in a mall parking
lot.
> Sometimes it's enough to tell them my father is a minister (which he is),
> but other times they do what your two gentlemen did. All you can do is
> excuse yourself and go elsewhere. Some people take the "go ye therefore
and
> teach all nations" line a BIT too seriously. I think it's great that they
> have placed such importance on the souls of others, but badgering a person
> isn't the way to convert the masses.
>
> As I said, Dad's a minister, and he would be appalled by behavior like
that.
> I never asked him why he of all people wouldn't appreciate zeal like that,
> but then in all the bible studies I had as a kid, not once did Christ go
> seeking out people to convert. They came to Him, and perhaps that's how it
> should be.
>
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Ever look at the front page of an Ac-u-Kwik book?

Nope. What's there?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> There are many of us that were raised "hyper-catholic", to use your
phrase,
> but not many still carry such a large chip on their shoulder as you. You
> really ought to learn to get by all that. It's pretty sad that you can
> allow a couple of one-issue old guys to ruin a couple of days of your
life.

???

What chip am I carrying? And how have they ruined more than my lunch?

Sign me "confused"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> when ever approached... be more zealous then they area.. be affirmative..
> and try to convert them to your beliefs.. they'll run away.. or stop
> talking..

It's been my experience that people who want to talk about their religion
don't much care about mine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> My goodness, Jay. Get a grip.

Discussing whacko pilots isn't appropriate in a piloting newsgroup?

Get a grip, Larry. I'm sincerely afraid to share the airspace with guys who
think someone Else is steering...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wdtabor]

>
>Get a grip, Larry. I'm sincerely afraid to share the airspace with guys who
>think someone Else is steering...
>--

My sister-in-law had one of those "God is my co-pilot" bumper stickers. She got
really ****ed when I pointed out that if God wrapped it around a tree, he'd be
back in three days but she would not.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Jay Honeck]

> To be perfectly honest with you Jay, most of my colleagues and myself
> are/were under the impression that most Americans are very religious, you
> know God bless America and all that stuff, where it is the opposite in
> Australia. In saying that, it surprises me that you aren't. I am not
> religious myself.

Actually, it was just reported (on NPR) the other day that Americans are the
most religious people in the world. (I think they measured that by asking
"How often you go to church?" -- as if THAT has anything to do with
religion.) So I suppose I should be thankful that I haven't run into this
situation before.

> When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but to
> "debate" if you like, the existance of God

If I'm sitting around a camp fire, I'm the same way. I'll debate religion
until I run out of breath.

I think it was the utter "out of left field" nature of these guys that
caught us both off guard. We were feeling really good about ourselves, and
the day, and the flight, and all the sudden *wham!* -- we found ourselves
knee-deep in a religious debate neither of us expected.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

>
and the hipocracy of the various
> churches around the world. I don't let it become personal or childish but
it
> invariably ends in the religious person having no answer but the old
> "Because it is Gods way/wish" or what ever. But that's just me Jay, there
> are times when I'll be straight to the point and say I'm not interested
> thank you, and adopt the speak to the hand pose. I think they should be
> treated like telemarketers. Keep it short and straight to the point, but
> give it to them right back, it's your free time and if your like me, they
> don't come very often, don't let it be spoiled by misdirected people. If
> they stop talking and the silence is awkward, let them know that you won't
> be offended if they move to another table.
>
> Scet
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Of course, if indeed I should end up standing in front of St. Peter or
> Jesus on Judgement Day, it will be a major "Oops"-moment. ;-)

Of course, would a good God condemn you to eternal damnation for making a
75-year mistake?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tony Cox]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:o7pvb.267219$Fm2.280642@attbi_s04...
>
> Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down an
> off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
> assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
> scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.
>


Oh boy is this one going to run and run...
What's the betting we'll get more posts than the
JFK thread??

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[James Robinson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
> interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
> you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
> of your beliefs.
>
> Is that possible?

Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
it all up.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> good God
>

That concept doesn't hold up to any real world check at all. Look at
us!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Discussing whacko pilots
>

BTW, have another look at the EI eingine monitor ads.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[EDR]

In article >, James Robinson
> wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
> > interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
> > you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
> > of your beliefs.
> >
> > Is that possible?
>
> Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
> The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
> it all up.

Amen, brother!

[John Gaquin]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> ???
>
> What chip am I carrying?

Re-read your own post. The whole tone is one of over-reaction. Granted,
these guys were obnoxiously intrusive, no excuse, but you do sort of carry
on about them. From the time they said Grace before lunch, you took
thirteen paragraphs to relate something that could have been told in three
or four. I think you really *wanted* to rant. Clearly, evangelizing
organized religion is a hot-button with you.

>And how have they ruined more than my lunch?
>

By your own account, you and Mary rehashed the event all the way home. I'm
betting the subject wasn't dropped on arrival back at Iowa City, either.
And the following day you were still incensed enough to post a rather
lengthy message to the NG. So, these guys had you locked and stressed for a
day and a half, anyway.

Jay, I'm no missionary, but I'm not an atheist or agnostic, either. There
are whackos everywhere, in all walks of life. There are guys I know in
airline cockpits I wouldn't want moving into my neighborhood! You just
can't let them get you wired like this!

That's all I meant.

JG

[Steve Robertson]

Jay,

I'm not going to pile on here (really!), but I think Ian has a point.

When I read your missive, I immediately had the same initial reaction as Ian
apparently had. That is, perhaps you were uncomfortable with the conversation
not so much because you were offended, but because it made you suddenly aware of
"unfinished business" in your spiritual life.

I grew up in neither a Catholic nor a "Bible thumper" household. As such, I
don't carry much baggage, for better or for worse. I find some major problems to
the point of corruption with both extremes. When I read the Bible, I find no
mention of a pope/venal sins/mortal sins/purgatory/limbo/private
confessional/etc. Nor do I find it written that it is necessary to attend church
twice on Sunday and again on Wednesday, speak in tongues, claim to be "born
again", or not allowed to drink/gamble/swear/etc. Also, I haven't read anywhere
in the Bible that one cannot lead a moral life or enter the Kingdom (of heaven)
without being a practicing Jew or Christian (not that the word Christian appears
in the Bible that I'm aware of). All of this stuff that one camp or another
places emphasis on is just window dressing. The Bible is written in plain enough
language for one to understand what the point is.

The point is ... The only way to ENSURE that one enters the Kingdom is through
the grace of God, which for Christians is conveyed by belief in Jesus as Savior.
EVERYTHING else is secondary. Now, one can read the Old Testament or the Gospels
and find where the Lord want us to lead what can only be termed a moral life.
Mostly follow the "golden rule" if you distill it right down to dregs. Most all
of us were given free will to make our own decisions. Some of us are evil and
some are not. But we all are sinners and most of us can and should try do
better. But (and I can't quote chapter and verse) one cannot be asssured of
entering the Kingdom though good works alone.

Now most of us have heard that the Lord works in mysterious ways. I believe
that. I have never witnessed any miracles. Never had any "revelations". I don't
aurally hear the Lord speaking to me. Never had a vision. Never spoke in
tongues. I don't see an image of Mother Teresa in baked goods nor Jesus in the
shadow thown by a bug zapper (not that anybody after His time knows what He
looked like). But I find that I am occasionally moved to do something or make a
particular decision by a force that just comes out of nowhere. And every time
that has happend and I "listened", the result has been a blessing to me or to
someone I've helped. I can't igore that this is how the Lord nudges me to do His
work from time to time. My taking time to write this rant is the result of one
of these nudges. I hope it somehow provides a blessing to you or someone else
who might read this. In any case, please consider the possibility that your
encounter and the feelings it rasied a nudge you are getting from Him.

My advice is this: Put aside all the Catholic guilt trip and your reaction to
it. Pick up one of those Gideon King James Bibles you have at the hotel (or
better yet, get a modern translation), and read the Gospels again. After that,
decide one way or another what it's going to be for you. Get your spiritual
house in order - stop sitting on the fence. Once you've done that, you won't
feel so uncomfortable the next time you get suckered into a dialouge with
someone trying to spread whatever message that have.

Disclaimer: I'm not a theologian, preacher, priest, elder, deacon, minister,
pastor, or rabbi. Just a sinner and sheep in His flock.

Required aviation content: The existence of flying machines just points out to
me that the laws of physics are just too complicated and amazing to have been
left to chance.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24

Ian wrote:

> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> <snip!>.

> Your rejection of the message does not diminish its truth.

[Anonymous]

> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your

And thus speaketh the inherent hypocrisy in all evangelical people...
the "right" to judge others which you all feel you have, but sadly,
according to every faith on this planet, you clearly lack.

Remember, judge not, lest ye be judged.

[Chip Jones]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
> > interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
> > you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
> > of your beliefs.
> >
> > Is that possible?
>
> Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
> The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
> it all up.

So sayeth the Shepherd, so sayeth the Flock! 42.

Chip, ZTL

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson" >
wrote:

>Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
>religion?

People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
not to kill for the first time.

Let's not go and blame religion when other factors, usually condemned
by religious belief systems, are more operative. To do so would be
insignificant cause fallacies. Fights and wars have broken out over
things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason
alone. It's too much work!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Gotta beat 'em off with a stick around here. The Mormons and the
Jehovah's Witnesses. The Witnesses built a church about a mile away.
When we found out who was building all the neighbors just rolled our
eyes because we knew after the church got finished they would be all
over the neighborhood. Sure enough every week they are pounding on the
door.

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:00:56 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>That was the case in the vast majority of wars, I would say. Of course,
>in most, religion was just a cover for power mongering - but that seems
>to be common in religion anyway.

Given that power mongering exists with or without religion (unless the
last 100 years of secular democracies descending into fascist or
communist dictatorships is supposed to be set aside?), it seems
particularly fallacious to suppose that because many religions contain
power mongerers, that it is the cause of the belief system that they
monger power.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Newps]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Jay,
>
>
>>Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>>
>
>
> Stand up for YOUR beliefs - or non-beliefs. It's the only way. If they
> have the freedom to have their view - and they should - then it is your
> right to have your own. Try to end the discussion by allowing that
> people have different opinions about this, yours differs from theirs,
> and you'd rather discuss something else.

Tell them that when they actually get a religion and not the cult they
are really in you'll discuss it with them.

[Dean Wilkinson]

Hi Jay,

Been there, done that. Back in college I had several encounters like
you describe. The first time it was almost an unreal experience and I
felt the ear burning embarassement that you describe. After that, I
learned to be rude as hell to people like that. I have even begun to
take pleasure in saying as absurd and inflamatory statements as
possible to mess with them. Be creative, it can be a gas. Don't be
afraid to be outlandish in your statements or behavior, but above all
else be as contrary and contradicatory as possible!

Dean

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dean Wilkinson wrote:
>
> After that, I
> learned to be rude as hell to people like that.

"Do I know Jesus? Sure! He's the Mexican scag dealer up on tenth street."

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[Trent Moorehead]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:MEpvb.267465$Fm2.280789@attbi_s04...
>
> > When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but
to
> > "debate" if you like, the existance of God
>
> If I'm sitting around a camp fire, I'm the same way. I'll debate religion
> until I run out of breath.

I'm afraid that debating the existence of God would be quite a waste of
breath for it isn't possible to prove or disprove. And doing so would be
fruitless because religion deals with beliefs and you'll never convince a
truly religious person that their beliefs are unfounded. Your only success
will be in ****ing them off. Now, if they are trying to convert/convince you
then they deserve what they get.

My Dad's advice for me has always been (he's an agnostic) "If you want to
remain friends with someone, never discuss religion or politics." His advice
has worked well for me for 38 years now.

I would say that debating God's existence around a campfire would be quite a
waste of a good campfire.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Roger Tracy]

When confronted by these types, whether at my front door or elsewhere, I
just
firmly tell them that my religious beliefs are my own private business and
not something
I wish to debate with them .. and then walk away or shut the door.

My CFI for my PPL was a minister. He never even approached religion as part
of our discussions. And I used to kid him that I felt like I had TWO CFIs
when
I flew with him.

My CFI for my helicopter stuff was an Adventist missionary pilot.

These fine gentlemen let their actions and how they conducted their lives
speak.
They didn't try to convert or force their views on me. To me this was far
more
powerful then aggressive recruiting.




"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jim]

Said non stop not allowing them to interrupt you:
"I'm really happy that you and your friend are comfortable with your
religious views and are here at the casino seeking souls to save but my wife
and I are really comfortable with our own religious beliefs and prefer not
to discuss them in public nor with strangers. I'm sure that there are
people here that are more in need of your sermon as the evils of gambling
can indeed have a detrimental effect on those who can not afford it. We're
sure that your help is truly needed elsewhere but when we accepted your kind
offer to dine with you without the pretense of a religious conversation.
Being pilots, like us, we expected to converse about airplanes and piloting.
Please feel free to move on to other worthy souls. Thankyou for the
entertainment, and have a great flight home, hit 16 stay on 17, lean above
3000, split 10s or better, double down on 20, Vx then Vy, lower the nose and
kiss the sky."

You were hit by 2 salesmen, nothing more. You didn't want to buy what they
were selling. Treat them the same as any other unwanted salesman. Surely
at the Inn you must get salesmen that come in asking for "The Head of
Maintenence", without knowing his name. Kindly tell them no, then show them
the door. Learn how to bull**** the bull****ter, they typically don't know
how to react to having to eat their own crap. Their rights end when they
interfere with your rights.

--
Jim Burns III
Raised Catholic but will die free.
Watched people build a congregation so a priest could tear it down.
Watched Bishops sell the churches out from under the people then rape their
pocketbooks for new ones.
Watched priests come and go but never stay, only milking the community for
all it was worth before deserting them.
Watched priests give parish funds to drug dealers.
Watched priests sell parish property against parishioners wishes.
Watched priests refuse to marry or baptize "certain" people of the parish.
.....and on and on and on
God has no religion, people create religion for their own gain.
God doesn't ruin religion, people ruin religion.

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Thomas Borchert]

Robert,

> that it is the cause of the belief system that they
> monger power.
>

I can't see that I said that.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jim]

Tell them you believe that God created the big boom, that usually get's them
thinking.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:MEpvb.267465$Fm2.280789@attbi_s04...
> >
> > > When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but
> to
> > > "debate" if you like, the existance of God
> >
> > If I'm sitting around a camp fire, I'm the same way. I'll debate
religion
> > until I run out of breath.
>
> I'm afraid that debating the existence of God would be quite a waste of
> breath for it isn't possible to prove or disprove. And doing so would be
> fruitless because religion deals with beliefs and you'll never convince a
> truly religious person that their beliefs are unfounded. Your only success
> will be in ****ing them off. Now, if they are trying to convert/convince
you
> then they deserve what they get.
>
> My Dad's advice for me has always been (he's an agnostic) "If you want to
> remain friends with someone, never discuss religion or politics." His
advice
> has worked well for me for 38 years now.
>
> I would say that debating God's existence around a campfire would be quite
a
> waste of a good campfire.
>
> -Trent
> PP-ASEL
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:16:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>
>Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down an
>off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
>assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
>scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.
>
>Is that possible?

About the only thing I could accomplish on those terms is to relegate
all belief systems, including atheisms and agnosticisms, to the
logical scrap heap.

Except *mine*, of course, since *mine* makes perfect sense to *me*.
(Except where it doesn't, but like many believers I usually don't
worry that I have all the answers to all the questions.) But you've
defined away (maybe) the possibility of accepting premises you're not
willing to accept, the effort is probably fruitless.

BTAIM, the central notion in my own belief system is that no matter
what else, prayer works. I'm not talking about this or that form of
prayer. I'm not talking about asking for any old thing from God and
getting it. There's no magic set of words, and the conclusion is not
based on one lightning moment of conversion, it's based on a lifetime
of doing it. I'm talking about building a relationship with a real
person.

Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
scripture I know about, *including* the Bible. He hasn't invested
Godlike Flawlessness in any man, to lead us all to Heaven, though I do
not deny the notion that He inspires men, and even organizes them,
when He has something He wants to show us all.

I know that's not much to go on, but personally I don't have
stewardship over any other adult's decisions. Can't make you do
anything. Can't prove God exists or doesn't exist, since the only
experimentation I know about depends very unscientifically on the
motivations of the experimenter. The results manifest not in physical
phenomena, but in feeling coupled with clear thinking. If it improves
the quality of your life and becomes precious to you, God is the
source of it.

Sorry.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Gene Seibel]

Jay, if you were going about your business and they stopped you on the
street, I'd see your point. But you voluntarily joined a couple of
complete strangers for lunch. When you do that, you've got to be
prepared for surprises. You may not agree with their beliefs or
especially how they expressed them, but this is still America.
Personally, I believe what I believe and if anyone tries to change my
mind, I either listen or move on. My guess is that they got you
thinking about something you don't want to deal with.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in
> disbelief.

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:55:30 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Of course, if indeed I should end up standing in front of St. Peter or
>> Jesus on Judgement Day, it will be a major "Oops"-moment. ;-)
>
>Of course, would a good God condemn you to eternal damnation for making a
>75-year mistake?

Nope. The quasi-Christian doctrines of "instant Hell" are false, IMO.
(So is the Aristotlean notion of eternity; we humans don't have the
best picture of the topology of the universe, after all...)

I think if Thomas is willing to *say* "Oops" at that moment, that'll
speak very favorably to him.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:07:43 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> nor be required to give away your airplane and all your other worldly
>> posessions (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33)
>> nor sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)
>
>I'm always impressed with how you guys can DO that. How the HECK do you
>remember the verses and chapters in such detail?

Search engines. I can do it, too! (And, part of my upbringing included
being required to commit 160 passages of scripture to memory long
enough to recite it back to a teacher.)

But what you've probably seen here, since it's very similar to many of
the atheist missives I've seen trying to steer people clear of the
Bible through a combination of out-of-context quoting and the fallacy
of misleading vividness, is paraphrased from something that's been
around for a long, long time.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Jim]

Exactly the tactic I take with un announced and unwanted salesmen.

I'm here to see the person in charge of maintenence supplies.
"Tough"
Huh? What do you mean? Can I see him?
"No"
Well, I need his name.
"Tough"
Can I get his name?
"If he had wanted something you are selling, he would have contacted you
and you'd already know his name"
But he called wanting some information.
"If he called you, you should know his name."
I didn't write it down.
"Why would I let my maintenence man buy something from a man that can't
write?"
I mean I forgot to write it down.
"Why would I let my maintenence man buy something from a man with no
memory?"
Can I see him or at least talk to him?
"I asume that you can see, so if I let you talk to him you no doubt
would be able to see him, unless he requires you to be blind folded but you
still can't talk to him"
Why won't you let me see him?
"Because he earns about 10 times as much as your trailer trash scumbag
ass does and if I let you see him, you will be costing more money than what
ever you're trying to peddle costs!"

Can I leave my card?
"No, did I mention that you are on private property?"
What do you mean?
"This is private property, you weren't invited, so you're traspassing"
Huh?
"Do you have a village solicitation permit?"
Huh?
"Did you see the sign on the edge of town that says permit required for
solicitation?"

....and on and on and on....

Sometimes it's the funnest part of my day.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply
"Dean Wilkinson" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi Jay,
>
> Been there, done that. Back in college I had several encounters like
> you describe. The first time it was almost an unreal experience and I
> felt the ear burning embarassement that you describe. After that, I
> learned to be rude as hell to people like that. I have even begun to
> take pleasure in saying as absurd and inflamatory statements as
> possible to mess with them. Be creative, it can be a gas. Don't be
> afraid to be outlandish in your statements or behavior, but above all
> else be as contrary and contradicatory as possible!
>
> Dean

[John T]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message

>
> Fights and wars have broken out over
> things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason
> alone. It's too much work!

I don't know. If a modern (albeit minor) war could be waged over a soccer
match, I'm thinking that religion would be a far more serious matter in
societies of centuries ago.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
>enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
>rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers.

The best proselyting is done by showing the example of a happy life.

There is, IMO, no inconsistency to be found by finding a confessed
Protestant in a casino. For so many denominations the only requirement
is that little prayer. Plenty of Baptist grammas go to Vegas, I think.

> I still have a
>hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
>but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
>thing.
>
>Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

You, in your cordial Midwestern way, fed a pair of Christian
proseletyzers your time and attention. You gave them an impression of
interest that they, in their zeal, failed to notice was more than just
good Midwestern friendliness.

They take advantage of that, and it's certainly not your fault.

What I usually do is raise the ante. I've got a pretty strong set of
beliefs, so I listen to what they have to say and then make sure they
know that I'm very committed to my own belief system, and would they
like to know more about that?

Another thing that works nicely is, "I know you believe that, guys,
but I think your premise is simply incorrect and unprovable, and what
I'm looking for must be provable."

If not, then, "I guess our conversation is concluded, gentlemen. Have
a nice flight home," and off we go.

Rob


--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:48:49 -0500, "John Gaquin"
> wrote:

>> What chip am I carrying?
>
>Re-read your own post. The whole tone is one of over-reaction.

Is not. I would have had a very similar initial reaction to that kind
of witnessing. It's rare enough that it's a surprise whenever I find
it.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:39:38 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>> that it is the cause of the belief system that they
>> monger power.
>>
>
>I can't see that I said that.

You didn't. It's either a strawman (my bad) or (IME) the place people
who don't like churches usually go next.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:31:04 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>Dean Wilkinson wrote:
>>
>> After that, I
>> learned to be rude as hell to people like that.
>
>"Do I know Jesus? Sure! He's the Mexican scag dealer up on tenth street."

LOL!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Ron Natalie]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Dean Wilkinson wrote:
> >
> > After that, I
> > learned to be rude as hell to people like that.
>
> "Do I know Jesus? Sure! He's the Mexican scag dealer up on tenth street."

If he was born in Bethlehem, why does he have a latino name?

-Ron

Santa Claus did not die for your sins.

[Art Johnson]

>
>
> >
> > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"

>
After you get converted to *that* religion, then they can start
recruiting for the Gay Pilots Association. Talk about a ruined lunch!
I thank my aching back and years of hard work every time *I* fly.

Blue Skies
Art @HTH
N5217D

[John Harlow]

> My Dad's advice for me has always been (he's an agnostic) "If you want to
> remain friends with someone, never discuss religion or politics."

And of course don't forget the "Great Pumpkin!" ;-)

[C J Campbell]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
|
| Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
| every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
| enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
| rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers.

Well, speaking as a 'religious fanatic,' which apparently means anyone whose
religious views differ from yours, I would have to observe that pilots on
the whole are extremely gullible and even superstitious.

I have had pilots try to peddle to me everything from magnetic healing
devices to fraudulent investments to legal protection plans (see AOPA, for
an example of a legal services plan that covers almost nothing) to broken
down airplanes.

Gullibility is not reduced by greater intelligence. In fact, I think it
takes a certain minimum intelligence to be fooled.

Of course, if you want to just mess with people's minds, you can offer them
the Consolation of Haldane as Carl Sagan put it: "in an infinitely old
universe with an infinite number of appearances of galaxies, stars, planets,
and life, an identical Earth must reappear on which you and all your loved
ones will be reunited. I'll be able to see my parents again and introduce
them to the grandchildren they never knew. And all this will happen not
once, but an infinite number of times....there will be universes, indeed an
infinite number of them, in which our brains will have full recollection of
many previous rounds." Of course, in infinite numbers of universes Hitler
(and even worse!) will arise again and work their horrors upon humanity.

But then (I modestly call this Campbell's corollary to Haldane's
Consolation), in infinite numbers of universes, there must also arise
infinite numbers of beings that basically have all the characteristics
ascribed to God -- and not just the Judeo/Christian God, but all the gods
ever imagined, as well as all the devils, fairies, demons, angels, balrogs,
whatever, as well as beings capable of moving between these universes,
soooooo...... somewhere there really is an Oz, a Middle Earth, or a Narnia,
and in an infinite number of these places there is a guy named Jay Honeck
who runs a hotel.

[C J Campbell]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
| and in an infinite number of these places there is a guy named Jay Honeck
| who runs a hotel.
|

And the hotel will be full of Gideon Bibles. In fact, there will be an
infinite number of Jay Honecks that are Gideons, an infinite number of Jay
Honecks that are Jehovah's Witnesses, and an infinite number of Jay Honecks
that are Mormons.

So be nice to those missionaries. The person you are being polite to might
just be yourself. :-)

[Jim]

CJ, you're starting to scare me :)
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Jim Weir]

P: Introibo ad altari dei

A: Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meum

(shall I continue?)


Jim



"Jay Honeck" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Of course, I'll bet you can't recite the 1963 version of the Catholic mass
->aloud...so nyah! :-)

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim]

Oh great, now I'm getting "join your local church" and prayer spam email.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Blanche Cohen]

I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
on that assumption.

[Blanche Cohen]

42, None of the Above, Order N log N, and only if there's chocolate.

That pretty well sums up most questions of life as well as
Computer Science PhD exams.

[Brian Cox]

Hi Jay,
Like you, I was raised Hyper-Catholic in Iowa. I'm honored to
stay that I am a Christian and still Catholic. My bride is Protestant
and also devoutly Christian. I must honestly say that I still
struggle on a daily basis as much as any person who doesn't claim
strong religious convictions. I'm flawed because I'm human. I
personally feel uncomforable with being so overt that I appear to be
pushing my own beliefs and practices on others. Everyone is different
and their methods of evangalism reflect their own personalities. I'd
just like to try and explain your lunch companions' actions as I
understand them.
They feel a strong conviction to share the Lord's message with
folks who don't believe. They are going to a casino rather than a
church just as Jesus hung out with tax collectors and other 'sinners'
that the organized religious leaders viewed as not worthy. I imagine
that your lunch companions felt the same way about talking to you
about Christ as they would about warning you to prevent you from
accidentally stepping into traffic. You may not see it that way, and
most of the other poster's either.
I don't intend to pass judgement on others, as I fail on a pretty
regular basis. However, I also don't think I should avoid telling
others that I am a Christian for fear that they might be offended.
Don't be surprized if someday your own children are plying you with
the same style evangalism you experienced in the casino. God works in
ways we don't often understand.

Brian Cox
Pilot, and (I guess) Bible Beater

[C J Campbell]

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
| CJ, you're starting to scare me :)
| --

I trust that the Middle Earth Jay Honeck will be somwhat more competent than
Butterbur. :-)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
> hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
> on that assumption.
>

There is damn little in religion that can be proved or disproved.

[Blanche Cohen]

These days I'm practicing Zen Judaism.

You sit zazen and kvetch all the time.

[Ron Natalie]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
> > hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
> > on that assumption.
> >
>
> There is damn little in religion that can be proved or disproved.
>
>
According to the Hitchhiker's Guide, the Babel fish was put forth as an example for the non-existence of God:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so
therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D.."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra
crossing.

[Ben Dover]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:00:56 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> > wrote:
>
> >That was the case in the vast majority of wars, I would say. Of course,
> >in most, religion was just a cover for power mongering - but that seems
> >to be common in religion anyway.
>
> Given that power mongering exists with or without religion (unless the
> last 100 years of secular democracies descending into fascist or
> communist dictatorships is supposed to be set aside?), it seems
> particularly fallacious to suppose that because many religions contain
> power mongerers, that it is the cause of the belief system that they
> monger power.
>
> Rob
>

Bulls*it. The belief system is all about power whether it is religious or
secular, Christian or Communist. You have one group of people who KNOW they
are right and therefore KNOW they have the authority because they are right
to try and impose their beliefs on others.

[Blanche Cohen]

At this point I think the issue is less of "witnessing" or
prostelyzing (sp? can't find it in my dictionary) and more an
issue for Miss Manners. I was brought up *never* to discuss
religion with strangers. I consider people who want to foster
their ideas and beliefs upon me to be rude and ill-mannered. Jay
was being more than gracious by being polite and considerate.
The lunch companions were being rude when Jay made it clear
that he was uncomfortable with the topics.

Of course there are times when it's perfectly permissable to
just say "You are ruining my delightful day with my wife, and
ruining my lunch" then go to another table.

[Blanche Cohen]

There's a car in the local complex that has the bumper sticker
"My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter".

I keep wanting to go up them and ask if they work for
Morrie Goldstein.

(*chortle*)

[Windecks]

I hate to resort to name calling, but you asked for it. What a
self-righteous ass you are.

There are many beliefs in this world, and thank whatever supreme being there
may well be that we live in a country where you can choose to follow
whatever faith (including none) you want.

I don't have the patience or good manners of Mr. Honeck; after a polite
explanation to any bible thumpers in mid-proselytize, if they persisted I
would tell them to f-off.


"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to
it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how
being
> raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
> Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the
good
> news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
> you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
> and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
> hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
> casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
> they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are
people
> there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important,
not
> the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
> its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your
choice.
> It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever
religion
> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should
have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
> children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
> If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
> good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has
provided
> some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look
like,
> where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
> living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
> and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance
in
> your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real
POH.
> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept.
From
> the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
> exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes
each
> of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
> entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and
Him,
> nobody else. What is it going to be ?
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Sometimes it's the funnest part of my day.

You're not a well man, Jim.

'Course, that's why I like you! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blanche Cohen]

Jim explains

>Can I leave my card?
> "No, did I mention that you are on private property?"
>What do you mean?
> "This is private property, you weren't invited, so you're traspassing"
>Huh?
> "Do you have a village solicitation permit?"
>Huh?
> "Did you see the sign on the edge of town that says permit required for
>solicitation?"

I do that to the Witnesses & the Mormons. I ask if they were invited
to the complex by a homeowner. Of course they always answer NO. Then
I inform them of the trespassing laws and as soon as I close the door
I'm calling the cops.

I guess my address is now on their "Do No Call" list. The Witnesses
were here yesterday but no one came to my door.

[Blanche Cohen]

Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>
>"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
>>
>> I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
>> hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
>> on that assumption.
>
>There is damn little in religion that can be proved or disproved.

I rest my case.

[Jay Honeck]

> Raised Catholic but will die free.
> Watched people build a congregation so a priest could tear it down.
> Watched Bishops sell the churches out from under the people then rape
their
> pocketbooks for new ones.
> Watched priests come and go but never stay, only milking the community for
> all it was worth before deserting them.
> Watched priests give parish funds to drug dealers.
> Watched priests sell parish property against parishioners wishes.
> Watched priests refuse to marry or baptize "certain" people of the parish.
> ....and on and on and on
> God has no religion, people create religion for their own gain.
> God doesn't ruin religion, people ruin religion.

Wow, Jim -- I didn't know you attended the same church I went to as a boy!
;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[One's Too Many]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04>...
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

I was raised with a Catholic mother and a Baptist father and while
moderately religous myself, I do not like to be preached at like that
at all. I usually look them straight in the eye and tell them I am
Jewish. That usually shuts them up instantly.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
> I rest my case.
>

On what?

[Jay Honeck]

> Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
> misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
> lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
> scripture I know about, *including* the Bible.

What do you think about the Baha'i faith?

It addresses this very notion that no one religion (or book) captures the
spirit of God. I've found their theory of "Progressive Revelation" (in
short: All religions reveal a little piece of God, in their time) to be one
of the most logical approaches to religion.

Sadly, it's weighted down with a cult of personality toward its founder that
makes it all too familiar to a fallen-away Catholic.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Harlow]

> But what you've probably seen here, since it's very similar to many of
> the atheist missives I've seen trying to steer people clear of the
> Bible through a combination of out-of-context quoting and the fallacy
> of misleading vividness, is paraphrased from something that's been
> around for a long, long time.

Lol - then set us straight! What is one to think when they see such things
as the value of human life literally expressed in dollars (well, ok,
shekels) - and women being worth half that of men? Is there some underlying
message I'm missing?

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, if you were going about your business and they stopped you on the
> street, I'd see your point. But you voluntarily joined a couple of
> complete strangers for lunch.

True, but they were pilots. How many times have you joined a couple of
pilots for a (beer, lunch, dinner, pool party, fill in the blank) and had a
WONDERFUL time?

IMHO, these guys were nothing more than shills, masquerading as pilots.

> My guess is that they got you
> thinking about something you don't want to deal with.

Well, you're almost right. Religion is not something I want to deal with
when I'm eating lunch in a casino, any more than it's something I want to
read about on the bumper of the car ahead of me in traffic.

I'll never understand why anyone feels compelled to advertise their religion
in such tacky and disrespectful ways.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So be nice to those missionaries. The person you are being polite to might
> just be yourself. :-)

Augh! Paradox! Illogic!

Must...sterilize...sterilize...sterilize...

I.....AM.....NOMAD.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim]

That reminds me of an instance when Dave Obey came back to our home town
from Washington to walk in the annual parade. He stepped up on our porch
and asked me for his support and I quickly told him I was proud to be
Canadian (I'm not Canadian) but it shut him up in a hurry.

--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"One's Too Many" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:<Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04>...
> >
> > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> I was raised with a Catholic mother and a Baptist father and while
> moderately religous myself, I do not like to be preached at like that
> at all. I usually look them straight in the eye and tell them I am
> Jewish. That usually shuts them up instantly.

[Jim]

I once had a friend (he's dead now) that would call me up when he got a
"cold-caller" phone call, he'd put the salesman on conference call with both
of us and we'd rake the guy over the coals. One time it was a woman and my
friend and I acted like we were taking auditions for a 1-900 phone sex
company. I'll give the girl credit, she had a great sense of humor and
played along.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2Msvb.268634$Fm2.281926@attbi_s04...
> > Sometimes it's the funnest part of my day.
>
> You're not a well man, Jim.
>
> 'Course, that's why I like you! :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Gilles KERMARC]

Blanche Cohen wrote:
> At this point I think the issue is less of "witnessing" or
> prostelyzing (sp? can't find it in my dictionary)

Proselytise.

While we're on the topic of spelling : Jay, it's Prairie du Chien (not
Chein).

[Montblack]

> Brian Cox
> Pilot, and (I guess) Bible Beater

Bible Beaters are fine.

It's the Floor Floppers who are a pain. But, whatever floats their Ark.

--
Montblack

[Montblack]

("Robert Perkins" wrote)
<snip>
> I think if Thomas is willing to *say* "Oops" at that moment, that'll
> speak very favorably to him.


Me? I plan on pulling Buck Henry and James Mason aside and saying - Hey,
you guys made a mistake!

Heaven Can Wait (1978)

--
Montblack
"I like to watch"

[Chris W]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > So be nice to those missionaries. The person you are being polite to might
> > just be yourself. :-)
>
> Augh! Paradox! Illogic!
>
> Must...sterilize...sterilize...sterilize...
>
> I.....AM.....NOMAD.

That's my favorite episode :)



--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Montblack]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C1BB21B96
NETSCAN REPORT ....for rec.aviation.piloting.
Results for the year of 2003, up to 9/30/2003

--
Montblack


("Tony Cox" wrote)
> Oh boy is this one going to run and run...
> What's the betting we'll get more posts than the
> JFK thread??

[Randy Wentzel]

> According to the Hitchhiker's Guide, the Babel fish was put forth as an
example for the non-existence of God:
> "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and
without faith I am nothing."
> "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not
have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so
> therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D.."
> "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in
a puff of logic.
> "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that
black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra
> crossing.


42?

--Randy

[Jim Weir]

I tried using that argument that as a Math atheist I ought to be excused from
math homework and exams.

It didn't fly.


Jim



(Blanche Cohen)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
->hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
->on that assumption.



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim]

"Steven P. McNicoll"
> There is damn little in religion that can be proved or disproved.

Did God create the Big Bang or was the Big Bang created by God? And was
God's first attempt at man a dinosaur? Surely God didn't screw up the first
time, throw it all away, take a million year nap and decide to start over?
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Tom S.]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> |
> | Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> | every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
> smart
> | enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> | rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers.
>
> Well, speaking as a 'religious fanatic,' which apparently means anyone
whose
> religious views differ from yours, I would have to observe that pilots on
> the whole are extremely gullible and even superstitious.
>
> I have had pilots try to peddle to me everything from magnetic healing
> devices to fraudulent investments to legal protection plans (see AOPA, for
> an example of a legal services plan that covers almost nothing) to broken
> down airplanes.
>
> Gullibility is not reduced by greater intelligence. In fact, I think it
> takes a certain minimum intelligence to be fooled.
>
> Of course, if you want to just mess with people's minds, you can offer
them
> the Consolation of Haldane as Carl Sagan put it: "in an infinitely old
> universe with an infinite number of appearances of galaxies, stars,
planets,
> and life, an identical Earth must reappear on which you and all your loved
> ones will be reunited. I'll be able to see my parents again and introduce
> them to the grandchildren they never knew. And all this will happen not
> once, but an infinite number of times....there will be universes, indeed
an
> infinite number of them, in which our brains will have full recollection
of
> many previous rounds." Of course, in infinite numbers of universes Hitler
> (and even worse!) will arise again and work their horrors upon humanity.
>
> But then (I modestly call this Campbell's corollary to Haldane's
> Consolation), in infinite numbers of universes, there must also arise
> infinite numbers of beings that basically have all the characteristics
> ascribed to God -- and not just the Judeo/Christian God, but all the gods
> ever imagined, as well as all the devils, fairies, demons, angels,
balrogs,
> whatever, as well as beings capable of moving between these universes,
> soooooo...... somewhere there really is an Oz, a Middle Earth, or a
Narnia,
> and in an infinite number of these places there is a guy named Jay Honeck
> who runs a hotel.
>
And let's not get into the infinite regression that a concept of "god"
requires.

[Jay Honeck]

> P: Introibo ad altari dei
>
> A: Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meum

Ah, another abused child! :-)

I personally recall the English version better, so that must have been
post-Vatican II. So I'm probably remembering the 1965-ish version...

Remember what a thrill it was to actually SEE the priest, facing the
congregation?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:udtvb.268751$Fm2.281695@attbi_s04...
> > So be nice to those missionaries. The person you are being polite to
might
> > just be yourself. :-)
>
> Augh! Paradox! Illogic!
>
> Must...sterilize...sterilize...sterilize...
>
> I.....AM.....NOMAD.

I have taken much from the other!!

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:udtvb.268751$Fm2.281695@attbi_s04...
> > So be nice to those missionaries. The person you are being polite to
might
> > just be yourself. :-)
>
> Augh! Paradox! Illogic!
>
> Must...sterilize...sterilize...sterilize...
>
> I.....AM.....NOMAD.
> --
Hey, Jay...put copies of "Atlas Shrugged" in the drawers next to the Gideon
Bibles; that'll freak 'em out.

[Jay Honeck]

> They feel a strong conviction to share the Lord's message with
> folks who don't believe. They are going to a casino rather than a
> church just as Jesus hung out with tax collectors and other 'sinners'

The funny thing is, neither Mary nor I gamble. We ONLY go to the casino
because:

a) They pick us up for free
b) The buffet is great! (And cheap!)

Once I told the Real Estate guy that fact, he seemed quite gratified. It
did not, however, sate his desire to preach.

Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate it
to organized criminals.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> While we're on the topic of spelling : Jay, it's Prairie du Chien (not
> Chein).

Thanks. I tend to spell it interchangeably, since my chell specker doesn't
recognize it!

I prefer to refer to it as "PDC".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > I.....AM.....NOMAD.
>
> That's my favorite episode :)

Mine, too -- although the special effects look so bad now, it's hard to
watch it without laughing.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John T]

"Tom S." > wrote in message

>
> Hey, Jay...put copies of "Atlas Shrugged" in the drawers next to the
> Gideon Bibles; that'll freak 'em out.

....and quickly put them to sleep.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Jay Honeck]

> Oh great, now I'm getting "join your local church" and prayer spam email.

Guess they've given up on me... ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Jim,

> Did God create the Big Bang or was the Big Bang created by God?
>

As I said in another post: I don't know! There is nothing to support
the God theory. There is nothing to disprove it. That's typical for any
theory made up without any basis in observation. So, with our present
knowledge, the only possible answer to "Who or what started the Big
Bang?" is "I don't know!". Some might add "but I believe it was...",
but that's not knowledge. Everything bakc to the Big Bang is - based on
theories correlating well with and explaining observation. Basic
science. Religion isn't.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Robert,

> including atheisms and agnosticisms, t
>

Those are not belief systems. Calling them "non-belief" systems might
be more accurate. And that's the whole point.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jim Buckridge]

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:

> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers
> in every walk of life EXCEPT aviation.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Yes, fairly early in my aviation "career". It took my by surprise as
well. I wasn't prepared to discuss the matter, but I managed to get
out of the situation pretty quickly. If it comes up again I'll make
it clear that I do not care to discuss such matters, just like I don't
want to discuss my finances.

I still don't understand how people who consider themselves true
followers of Christ rationalize spending money on frivolous flight.
Just getting the PPL costs over $5K. That money would have gone a
long long way to feeding hungry people, or paying the way for
missionaries to spread the word.... or (if you're Catholic) paying for
lawyers to defend your local priest.

[Tony Cox]

Not even in the top 40! I'm shocked!

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?C1BB21B96
> NETSCAN REPORT ....for rec.aviation.piloting.
> Results for the year of 2003, up to 9/30/2003
>
> --
> Montblack
>
>
> ("Tony Cox" wrote)
> > Oh boy is this one going to run and run...
> > What's the betting we'll get more posts than the
> > JFK thread??
>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-21 12:45:01 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > said

> Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate i
> to organized criminals

Oh, give it a rest already, Jay. Just because a few big names have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, you think that every church in the world is an organization of criminals? Gimme a break

And you know, if this is the worst thing that's ever happened to you (and you seem to act as if it was), then your life could be a whole lot worse

[Jim]

Jay,
It might be a bit further, but check out the casino and buffet at
Baraboo/Dells. They pick you up at the airport also.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:hPuvb.69669$Dw6.355695@attbi_s02...
> > They feel a strong conviction to share the Lord's message with
> > folks who don't believe. They are going to a casino rather than a
> > church just as Jesus hung out with tax collectors and other 'sinners'
>
> The funny thing is, neither Mary nor I gamble. We ONLY go to the casino
> because:
>
> a) They pick us up for free
> b) The buffet is great! (And cheap!)
>
> Once I told the Real Estate guy that fact, he seemed quite gratified. It
> did not, however, sate his desire to preach.
>
> Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate it
> to organized criminals.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Chris W]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > > I.....AM.....NOMAD.
> >
> > That's my favorite episode :)
>
> Mine, too -- although the special effects look so bad now, it's hard to
> watch it without laughing.

My favorite scene is where Nomad is on the bridge and Uhura is singing,
then Nomad zaps her. Later Kirk asks Nomad what it did to Uhura and
Nomad says "That unit is defective it's thoughts are chaotic. . ."
Spock says "That unit is a woman."
Then Nomad says "A mass of conflicting impulses."


--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Jim Weir]

Dunno. I was wearing one of those black dresses with the white blouse at the
time. I always saw him from the front {;-)


Jim



"Jay Honeck" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Remember what a thrill it was to actually SEE the priest, facing the
->congregation?

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim]

Hey Jay,
You suppose that Mooney was donated to that group of monks that is always
advertising for people to give them their airplanes? Wow! Guaranteed not
to get one from me! Plug that into your weight and balance for Atlas....
how many holy rollers can you legally carry? :)
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[EDR]

In article >, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

> Those are not belief systems. Calling them "non-belief" systems might
> be more accurate. And that's the whole point.

It's not a the belief, it's the faith.

[EDR]

In article >, Larry Fransson
> wrote:

> On 2003-11-21 12:45:01 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > said:>
> Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate it>
> to organized criminals.

> Oh, give it a rest already, Jay. Just because a few
> big names have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, you think that
> every church in the world is an organization of criminals? Gimme a break.And
> you know, if this is the worst thing that's ever happened to you (and you
> seem to act as if it was), then your life could be a whole lot worse.

Who said he was referring to a religion?
He's talking about the government.

[Jim]

Gees, you too? Back in my dress wearing days, I got the great pleasure
(not) of training the son of the nuttiest church lady you'd ever want to
meet. Ewwwwwwwwww!!! Man talk about child abuse!
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> Dunno. I was wearing one of those black dresses with the white blouse at
the
> time. I always saw him from the front {;-)
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> "Jay Honeck" >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->Remember what a thrill it was to actually SEE the priest, facing the
> ->congregation?
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:47 GMT, Randy Wentzel wrote:

>42?

42!

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-21 06:45:46 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > said

> > My goodness, Jay. Get a grip
>
> Discussing whacko pilots isn't appropriate in a piloting newsgroup

They hardly seemed like "whacko" pilots from your description. They seemed like sincere individuals with a message they thought they should share with you. I'll agree that they really should have quit when you resisted, but you really didn't need to go on about it as if it were the worst thing that's ever happened to you. Was it the worst thing that has ever happened to you

> I'm sincerely afraid to share the airspace with guys wh
> think someone Else is steering..

Then you really should quit flying

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-21 06:16:52 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > said

> ...I would be interested to hear another pilot...give a cogent, logical
> scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs
>
> Is that possible

C. S. Lewis was neither a pilot nor a scientist, but he does a good job of
explaining things starting from a common reference point that has nothing to do
with God or any kind of religion in his book, _Mere Christianity_

[Mike Beede]

In article <MEpvb.267465$Fm2.280789@attbi_s04>, Jay Honeck > wrote:

> I think it was the utter "out of left field" nature of these guys that
> caught us both off guard. We were feeling really good about ourselves, and
> the day, and the flight, and all the sudden *wham!* -- we found ourselves
> knee-deep in a religious debate neither of us expected.

I have a description of this effect. You're talking to someone and holding a
seemingly-meaningful conversation, and suddenly they start quacking like
a duck. They clearly still *think* you're having a conversation, but you're
not.... This seems to manifest itself mostly in the realm of religion, but
sometimes you see the effect with conspiracy theory people too.

Mike Beede

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-21 13:26:58 -0800, EDR > said

> Who said he was referring to a religion
> He's talking about the government

Oops, my bad. I see that now. But I don't think he's talking about the government. He gives his money to the government whether he wants to or not. I think he was referring to the casino...

[Sridhar Rajagopal]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
<title></title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Jay, Jay, Jay! Look at the hornet's nest you have stirred up!
Interesting post, and one that I can relate to, except it wasn't in a
casino by an airport, but at the front door of my own home! I guess I
got a Book of Mormon out of the whole deal (and not much more), so it
wasn't so bad! Of course, they were back for a follow up session a few
days later, and the chicken that I am, I got my roommate to tell them
that I wasn't there (and he told them that he was not interested)! Ah
well .....<br>
<br>
Reading Scet's post below, I must saw that I thought differently too. I
had seen some of your conservative views (especially after 9/11), and
so was all the more surprised by your post. I guess&nbsp; conservative, and
religious don't necessarily go in the same sentence! :-) What do you
know - you learn something new everyday!<br>
<br>
-Sridhar<br>
<br>
Scet wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" ">
<pre wrap=""><!---->To be perfectly honest with you Jay, most of my colleagues and myself
are/were under the impression that most Americans are very religious, you
know God bless America and all that stuff, where it is the opposite in
Australia. In saying that, it surprises me that you aren't. I am not
religious myself.

When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but to
"debate" if you like, the existance of God and the hipocracy of the various
churches around the world. I don't let it become personal or childish but it
invariably ends in the religious person having no answer but the old
"Because it is Gods way/wish" or what ever. But that's just me Jay, there
are times when I'll be straight to the point and say I'm not interested
thank you, and adopt the speak to the hand pose. I think they should be
treated like telemarketers. Keep it short and straight to the point, but
give it to them right back, it's your free time and if your like me, they
don't come very often, don't let it be spoiled by misdirected people. If
they stop talking and the silence is awkward, let them know that you won't
be offended if they move to another table.

Scet
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-21 13:03:41 -0800, (Jim Buckridge) said:

> I still don't understand how people who consider themselves true
> followers of Christ rationalize spending money on frivolous flight.
> Just getting the PPL costs over $5K. That money would have gone a
> long long way to feeding hungry people, or paying the way for
> missionaries to spread the word....

I know one guy who was getting flight training just so that he could go and fly for one of the missionary flight organizations - MAF, I think. I also work with a guy who took a year off from flying professionally to go fly for a missionary organization in Central America.

[Gilles KERMARC]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Thanks. I tend to spell it interchangeably, since my chell specker doesn't
> recognize it!
>
> I prefer to refer to it as "PDC".

Come over here : we'll do some flying and you'll learn some french.

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
>>> that it is the cause of the belief system that they
>>> monger power.
>>
>>I can't see that I said that.
>
>You didn't. It's either a strawman (my bad) or (IME) the place people
>who don't like churches usually go next.

To my mind it's not so much that power corrupts, and absolute power
corrupts absolutely. So much as corrupt people do corrupt things; and
corrupt people with power do really corrupt things. Religion has long
been (one way) for people to gain power. A large number of whom have been
corrupt. There are any number of secular bad guys out there as well.

I think the main difference is that the secular power hungry guys do not
normally claim to be ethical/moral. Myself (and others I'm told) have
problems when a group claims to stand for moral principles not only
because they are good and just, but also the word/law of god. Then lie,
cheat and steal while the cover up the crimes of others, for example child
molestation and the catholic church). The actually number of pedophiles
within the church does no difference statistically from the general
population. However the general population does not claim to hold itself
to a high moral standard either.

So it's not so much that some of us 'don't like churches' as we don't like
the hypocrisy rampant in many religions. Then again that might just be me
:)

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
>> > Is that possible?
>>
>> Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
>> The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
>> it all up.
>
>yep. I agree. 42.
>
>perfect :-))

IIRC it's actually 48, some time traveling aliens screwed it up (Q:
what is 6x8). Although I did think Gods final message to man was good
stuff...

[Jay Honeck]

> > Oh, give it a rest already, Jay. Just because a few
> > big names have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, you think
that
> > every church in the world is an organization of criminals? Gimme a
break.And
> > you know, if this is the worst thing that's ever happened to you (and
you
> > seem to act as if it was), then your life could be a whole lot worse.

Dude, I was talking about the *casino*...

Sheesh...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Come over here : we'll do some flying and you'll learn some french.

Um, first you better tell me where "here" is...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Harlow]

> > Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate
it
> > to organized criminals.
>
> Oh, give it a rest already, Jay. Just because a few big names have been
caught with their hands in the cookie jar, you think that every church in
the world is an organization of criminals? Gimme a break.

L O ****ing L! You assumed he was talking about the church too, eh? <:-D

[John Harlow]

So, Jay, why DO you have bibles in your hotel rooms? Why not leftover AOPA
Pilot mags instead? Spread the *good* word! ;)

[Chris W]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate it
> to organized criminals.

Would that be the organized criminals that run the casino or the ones that run
the church ;)

Actually I am a religious church goer, but I realize that there are a lot of
"churches" out there that are more interested in your wallet than your soul.
That is why I believe that no one should be compensated for their service in
the church. In the church I belong to that is the way it is. I also strongly
believe in sharing my religious beliefs with those I know, but there is a time
and a place for everything. What the two guys that you encountered were doing
isn't exactly what I would classify as "sharing" beliefs. I also don't think
that setting was the time or place, not even close.

--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Richard Hertz]

and which hypothesis in mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is
the basis for all other math?


"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
> I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
> hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
> on that assumption.
>

[Ron Natalie]

"John Harlow" > wrote in message ...
> So, Jay, why DO you have bibles in your hotel rooms? Why not leftover AOPA
> Pilot mags instead? Spread the *good* word! ;)
>
I believe he provides GANews/Flyer's.

[Richard Hertz]

I think he is right - you should know better than to start basically a
religious debate on a pilot newsgroup. It is also a bit arrogant to
consider yourself more right about religion than those folks who you
couldn't seem to figure out how to say goodbye to. The original responder
(Ian I believe) did a good job.

I certainly don't agree with the religious folks (I am the son of a Lutheran
Pastor) but I have the good manners not to poke fun at people.

I enjoy a good debate the Jehovah's Witnesses who make the mistake of coming
to my door too, but I don't start flapping about it in a piloting newsgroup.


"Afraid to share the airspace with guys who thins someone Else is steering?"

Come on now, your turn to get a grip.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:uypvb.265962$Tr4.822228@attbi_s03...
> > My goodness, Jay. Get a grip.
>
> Discussing whacko pilots isn't appropriate in a piloting newsgroup?
>
> Get a grip, Larry. I'm sincerely afraid to share the airspace with guys
who
> think someone Else is steering...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
Richard Hertz > wrote:
>> I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
>> hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
>> on that assumption.
>
>and which hypothesis in mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is
>the basis for all other math?

Some would state that the heart of mathmatics is made of truisms. I
disagree but it's a common view.

[mike regish]

You were WAY more polite than I would have been. I let people like that know
right off the bat that I'm an athiest and that I welcome their company as
long as they can deal with that. The minute they try to start converting me,
I walk away. I feel no need to be polite about it.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
> Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
> all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
> was off to...where?
>
> Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
> Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
> riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
> So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
> Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
> the way!
>
> Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
> 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
> To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
> apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.
>
> After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
> bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
> next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
> really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
> gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
> called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
> back and all rode over together.
>
> The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
> turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
> in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
> the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
> developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
> we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.
>
> In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
> bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
> Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
> allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
> wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.
>
> Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
> was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
> frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
> affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
> about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
> glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.
>
> It was not to be.
>
> As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
> school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
> church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
> question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
> there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
> church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
> hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
> religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
> religion when they reached the age of reason.
>
> This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
> waters.
>
> The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
> had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
> I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
> various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
> their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
> remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
> Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.
>
> This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
> didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
> Koran.
>
> Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
> how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
> heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
> incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
> feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
> tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
> disbelief.
>
> Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
> I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
> didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
> had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
> Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
> prayer aloud with him?"
>
> The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
> casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
> someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
> on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
> with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
> way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.
>
> Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
> bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
> felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
> no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
> from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
> income to the church...
>
> At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
> up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
> life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
> "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.
>
> Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
> driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
> pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
> he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
> that made us laugh out loud.
>
> We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
> risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
> radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
> to go back to the airport" when he got back.
>
> His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
> was *our* turn to laugh!
>
> Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
> uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
> shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
> tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
> experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.
>
> Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
> every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
> enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
> rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
> hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
> but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
> thing.
>
> Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[mike regish]

See Jay? They're everywhere!

mike regish

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to
it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how
being
> raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
> Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the
good
> news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
> you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
> and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
> hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
> casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
> they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are
people
> there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important,
not
> the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
> its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your
choice.
> It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever
religion
> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should
have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
> children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
> If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
> good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has
provided
> some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look
like,
> where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
> living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
> and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance
in
> your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real
POH.
> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept.
From
> the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
> exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes
each
> of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
> entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and
Him,
> nobody else. What is it going to be ?
>
>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-21 14:42:49 -0800, "John Harlow" > said

> You assumed he was talking about the church too, eh? <:-

That is what the thread has been all about, so yeah, I missed the shift

[mike regish]

No they won't. They'll start debating.

mike regish

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:IZhvb.119$ML6.95@fed1read01...
> when ever approached... be more zealous then they area.. be affirmative..
> and try to convert them to your beliefs.. they'll run away.. or stop
> talking..
>

[Montblack]

("Jim" wrote)
> It might be a bit further, but check out the casino and buffet at
> Baraboo/Dells. They pick you up at the airport also.

I just ran across that airport on some website ...

Found it http://www.aya.org/aya2004/

Big Grumman fly-in.
2004 American Yankee Association International Convention

Monday-Thursday
July 5-8

Baraboo, Wisconsin

--
Montblack

[Andrew Gideon]

Montblack wrote:


> "Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back..."
> That was almost Marty, Marty, Marty funny. <g>

I think it poor taste in an aviation group to discuss Pathfinder worship.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Ben Dover wrote:

> Bulls*it. The belief system is all about power whether it is religious or
> secular, Christian or Communist. You have one group of people who KNOW
> they are right and therefore KNOW they have the authority because they are
> right to try and impose their beliefs on others.

What astounds me is that, at the same time as we deal with religious zealots
elsewhere in the world, our own zealots are trying to penalize couples
eager to commit to a life of togetherness and love in MA.

Why do most people not simply laugh these zealots off the stage?

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Robert Perkins wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson" >
> wrote:
>
>>Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
>>religion?
>
> People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
> religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
> not to kill for the first time.

If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.

- Andrew

[EDR]

Back in the 80's when people were forming churches for the tax
deductions, a couple pilot friends discussed forming the Church of
Whats Happening Now. Their airplanes were to be donated to the church
so that all their fuel and flying could be deducted as church business.

[mike regish]

A couple of years back there was a fuel exhaustion crash. Both pax were
pilots and they were both some religion or other. Both said it was the grace
of god and their prayers before the flight that saved them. All I could
think was that if they were checking the fuel instead on on their knees
praying, the crash likely would have never happened.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:uypvb.265962$Tr4.822228@attbi_s03...
> > My goodness, Jay. Get a grip.
>
> Discussing whacko pilots isn't appropriate in a piloting newsgroup?
>
> Get a grip, Larry. I'm sincerely afraid to share the airspace with guys
who
> think someone Else is steering...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[mike regish]

And another...

mike regish

"Steve Robertson" > wrote in message
...
> Jay,
>
> I'm not going to pile on here (really!), but I think Ian has a point.
>
> When I read your missive, I immediately had the same initial reaction as
Ian
> apparently had. That is, perhaps you were uncomfortable with the
conversation
> not so much because you were offended, but because it made you suddenly
aware of
> "unfinished business" in your spiritual life.
>
> I grew up in neither a Catholic nor a "Bible thumper" household. As such,
I
> don't carry much baggage, for better or for worse. I find some major
problems to
> the point of corruption with both extremes. When I read the Bible, I find
no
> mention of a pope/venal sins/mortal sins/purgatory/limbo/private
> confessional/etc. Nor do I find it written that it is necessary to attend
church
> twice on Sunday and again on Wednesday, speak in tongues, claim to be
"born
> again", or not allowed to drink/gamble/swear/etc. Also, I haven't read
anywhere
> in the Bible that one cannot lead a moral life or enter the Kingdom (of
heaven)
> without being a practicing Jew or Christian (not that the word Christian
appears
> in the Bible that I'm aware of). All of this stuff that one camp or
another
> places emphasis on is just window dressing. The Bible is written in plain
enough
> language for one to understand what the point is.
>
> The point is ... The only way to ENSURE that one enters the Kingdom is
through
> the grace of God, which for Christians is conveyed by belief in Jesus as
Savior.
> EVERYTHING else is secondary. Now, one can read the Old Testament or the
Gospels
> and find where the Lord want us to lead what can only be termed a moral
life.
> Mostly follow the "golden rule" if you distill it right down to dregs.
Most all
> of us were given free will to make our own decisions. Some of us are evil
and
> some are not. But we all are sinners and most of us can and should try do
> better. But (and I can't quote chapter and verse) one cannot be asssured
of
> entering the Kingdom though good works alone.
>
> Now most of us have heard that the Lord works in mysterious ways. I
believe
> that. I have never witnessed any miracles. Never had any "revelations". I
don't
> aurally hear the Lord speaking to me. Never had a vision. Never spoke in
> tongues. I don't see an image of Mother Teresa in baked goods nor Jesus in
the
> shadow thown by a bug zapper (not that anybody after His time knows what
He
> looked like). But I find that I am occasionally moved to do something or
make a
> particular decision by a force that just comes out of nowhere. And every
time
> that has happend and I "listened", the result has been a blessing to me or
to
> someone I've helped. I can't igore that this is how the Lord nudges me to
do His
> work from time to time. My taking time to write this rant is the result of
one
> of these nudges. I hope it somehow provides a blessing to you or someone
else
> who might read this. In any case, please consider the possibility that
your
> encounter and the feelings it rasied a nudge you are getting from Him.
>
> My advice is this: Put aside all the Catholic guilt trip and your reaction
to
> it. Pick up one of those Gideon King James Bibles you have at the hotel
(or
> better yet, get a modern translation), and read the Gospels again. After
that,
> decide one way or another what it's going to be for you. Get your
spiritual
> house in order - stop sitting on the fence. Once you've done that, you
won't
> feel so uncomfortable the next time you get suckered into a dialouge with
> someone trying to spread whatever message that have.
>
> Disclaimer: I'm not a theologian, preacher, priest, elder, deacon,
minister,
> pastor, or rabbi. Just a sinner and sheep in His flock.
>
> Required aviation content: The existence of flying machines just points
out to
> me that the laws of physics are just too complicated and amazing to have
been
> left to chance.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Robertson
> N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24
>
> Ian wrote:
>
> > > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> >
> > <snip!>.
>
> > Your rejection of the message does not diminish its truth.
>

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> I personally recall the English version better, so that must have been
> post-Vatican II. So I'm probably remembering the 1965-ish version...
>
> Remember what a thrill it was to actually SEE the priest, facing the
> congregation?


A friend used to listen to the early Sunday morning Latin Mass, *Live*,
on a local AM radio station - this was in the early 90's. After about a
year of this he decided to pay the (radio broadcast) Latin Mass
congregation a visit. The priest with the booming voice, the one doing
the 8:00am (Pre-Vatican II) Latin Mass every week, was a young, 5 ft
tall, Vietnamese fellow.

--
Montblack

[mike regish]

I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god, but why
do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"

mike regish

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:16:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down
an
> >off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
> >assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
> >scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.
> >
> >Is that possible?
>
> About the only thing I could accomplish on those terms is to relegate
> all belief systems, including atheisms and agnosticisms, to the
> logical scrap heap.
>
> Except *mine*, of course, since *mine* makes perfect sense to *me*.
> (Except where it doesn't, but like many believers I usually don't
> worry that I have all the answers to all the questions.) But you've
> defined away (maybe) the possibility of accepting premises you're not
> willing to accept, the effort is probably fruitless.
>
> BTAIM, the central notion in my own belief system is that no matter
> what else, prayer works. I'm not talking about this or that form of
> prayer. I'm not talking about asking for any old thing from God and
> getting it. There's no magic set of words, and the conclusion is not
> based on one lightning moment of conversion, it's based on a lifetime
> of doing it. I'm talking about building a relationship with a real
> person.
>
> Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
> misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
> lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
> scripture I know about, *including* the Bible. He hasn't invested
> Godlike Flawlessness in any man, to lead us all to Heaven, though I do
> not deny the notion that He inspires men, and even organizes them,
> when He has something He wants to show us all.
>
> I know that's not much to go on, but personally I don't have
> stewardship over any other adult's decisions. Can't make you do
> anything. Can't prove God exists or doesn't exist, since the only
> experimentation I know about depends very unscientifically on the
> motivations of the experimenter. The results manifest not in physical
> phenomena, but in feeling coupled with clear thinking. If it improves
> the quality of your life and becomes precious to you, God is the
> source of it.
>
> Sorry.
>
> Rob
>
> --
> [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
> ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
> educate themselves.
>
> -- Orson Scott Card

[mike regish]

I like that.

mike regish

"Brian Cox" > wrote in message
om...

> tax collectors and other 'sinners'

> Brian Cox
> Pilot, and (I guess) Bible Beater

[mike regish]

I think he was talking about the casino owners.

A lil touchy...no?

mike regish
"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
...
> On 2003-11-21 12:45:01 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
said:
>
> > Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate
it
> > to organized criminals.
>
> Oh, give it a rest already, Jay. Just because a few big names have been
caught with their hands in the cookie jar, you think that every church in
the world is an organization of criminals? Gimme a break.
>
> And you know, if this is the worst thing that's ever happened to you (and
you seem to act as if it was), then your life could be a whole lot worse.
>

[Chris W]

mike regish wrote:

> A couple of years back there was a fuel exhaustion crash. Both pax were
> pilots and they were both some religion or other. Both said it was the grace
> of god and their prayers before the flight that saved them. All I could
> think was that if they were checking the fuel instead on on their knees
> praying, the crash likely would have never happened.

God helps those who help themselves, some times he even helps those who are too
stupid to help themselves :)


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City, OK

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:56:55 -0500, Andrew Gideon >
wrote:

>If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
>the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.

How? Marxist Communism was supposed to be free of religion. Hundreds
of millions died or were oppressed anyway. Doesn't seem to me that
there's much of a difference between a secular tyranny and one based
on a religion (unless you're willing to come along with me and call
atheism a religion).

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:54:42 GMT, "Richard Hertz"
> wrote:

>and which hypothesis in mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is
>the basis for all other math?

"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

Every pilot knows the shortest distance is a circle, and a great one
at that. But it's probably safer to fly VOR to VOR if you don't have a
GPS on board.

Rob, attempting topicality. :-D

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Montblack]

("mike regish" wrote)
> I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god,
but why
> do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"


I often capitalize Church ....just to be safe. :-)

--
Montblack

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:35:15 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
>> misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
>> lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
>> scripture I know about, *including* the Bible.
>
>What do you think about the Baha'i faith?

I think they take their notions too far, (from the couple of brochures
I've received from them; they had a table in the mall a couple of
years ago) and you're right about the cult of personality thing.

But most young religions tend towards founder worship, if only a
little bit.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:18:27 GMT, "mike regish" >
wrote:

>I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god, but why
>do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"

Because the grammatical rules of Standard American English call for
it, Mike.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:02:47 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Robert,
>
>> including atheisms and agnosticisms, t
>>
>
>Those are not belief systems. Calling them "non-belief" systems might
>be more accurate. And that's the whole point.

Oy. We could go in circles around that one all day.

If it's an "-ism", then it's got unprovable premises. Man ain't the
fount of all wisdom, thatsfersure.

Rob


--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:40:45 -0500, "John Harlow"
> wrote:

>Lol - then set us straight! What is one to think when they see such things
>as the value of human life literally expressed in dollars (well, ok,
>shekels) - and women being worth half that of men? Is there some underlying
>message I'm missing?

Some things are worth my time, some are not. My standoffishness stems
from past attempts to explain context to people. You'll believe what
you want, no matter what I say, so what would be the point of a long
fruitless conversation?

Someone I respect put it this way: It takes much longer to answer a
complex lie than it does to tell it. I may not believe what Catholics
or Protestants do about the Bible, but I think I know when something
is being used in a fallacy.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[G.R. Patterson III]

Blanche Cohen wrote:
>
> At this point I think the issue is less of "witnessing" or
> prostelyzing (sp? can't find it in my dictionary) and more an
> issue for Miss Manners. I was brought up *never* to discuss
> religion with strangers.

Yep. That and politics.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[G.R. Patterson III]

mike regish wrote:
>
> The minute they try to start converting me, I walk away. I feel no need to be
> polite about it.

That's pretty much the case here. I would've been asking the waiter for another
table in short order. On the other side of the room, if you please.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[Jay Honeck]

> It might be a bit further, but check out the casino and buffet at
> Baraboo/Dells. They pick you up at the airport also.

You name the day, and we'll be there!

(Of course, the aviation-evangelists -- should we call them "Mooneys"? --
are from somewhere around there, so beware! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > So, Jay, why DO you have bibles in your hotel rooms? Why not leftover
AOPA
> > Pilot mags instead? Spread the *good* word! ;)
> >
> I believe he provides GANews/Flyer's.

Yep, every suite has the latest GA News. And a guy from Smithsonian Air &
Space just mailed me a ton of old issues, so those will be in there, too.

This solves one of my biggest pet peeves about hotels: There's never any
good "bathroom reading material" in them! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mike regish]

I never got taught that in grammar. "He" is only capitalized if it's the
first word of a sentence or in a title.

mike regish

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:18:27 GMT, "mike regish" >
> wrote:
>
> >I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god, but
why
> >do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"
>
> Because the grammatical rules of Standard American English call for
> it, Mike.
>
> Rob
>
> --
> [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
> ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
> educate themselves.
>
> -- Orson Scott Card

[Rosspilot]

Jay, no matter WHAT, you are still the all-time champion of this NG when it
comes to starting long threads. When I logged on (after an incredible 2.3 hr
photo flight today) there were 178 posts in this thread. Unbelievable!


www.Rosspilot.com

[Pixel Dent]

In article <0Zuvb.269248$Fm2.282647@attbi_s04>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Oh great, now I'm getting "join your local church" and prayer spam email.
>
> Guess they've given up on me... ;-)

They're just afraid you'll take them up on it ;-)

[Richard Hertz]

That does not answer my question.


"'Vejita' S. Cousin" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Richard Hertz > wrote:
> >> I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
> >> hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
> >> on that assumption.
> >
> >and which hypothesis in mathematics can't be proven or shown false that
is
> >the basis for all other math?
>
> Some would state that the heart of mathmatics is made of truisms. I
> disagree but it's a common view.

[Richard Hertz]

You're kidding right?


"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:54:42 GMT, "Richard Hertz"
> > wrote:
>
> >and which hypothesis in mathematics can't be proven or shown false that
is
> >the basis for all other math?
>
> "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line."
>
> Every pilot knows the shortest distance is a circle, and a great one
> at that. But it's probably safer to fly VOR to VOR if you don't have a
> GPS on board.
>
> Rob, attempting topicality. :-D
>
> --
> [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
> ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
> educate themselves.
>
> -- Orson Scott Card

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, no matter WHAT, you are still the all-time champion of this NG when
it
> comes to starting long threads. When I logged on (after an incredible 2.3
hr
> photo flight today) there were 178 posts in this thread. Unbelievable!

Yeah, well, talk about "damned with faint praise". I'd rather have been on
that flight with you! :-)

Speaking of which, last night it was still 70+ degrees at sunset. As we were
preparing a cookout (in November!) at our hangar (did I mention this is late
NOVEMBER?), the sun was going down and I remarked to Mary that "we really
should take her around the patch on a gorgeous night like this..."

She kind of rolled her eyes, and said "I'm in the middle of making dinner --
why don't you take Becca?" Usually my ten year old is lukewarm toward
flying, but this night the thought of flying in the front seat with Dad (and
getting out of doing her math homework!) made her enthusiastic.

After a short pre-flight, we were soon at the end of RWY 25, facing the inn,
and doing our run-up. There were two students working the pattern in 152s,
so we had a minute to bask in the ambience of our toasty warm, good smelling
(new leather, mmmmmm :-) plane, listening to the reassuring thrum of those
six cylinders while watching the first student flounder from base to final.
After observing a passable bounce and go, we trundled out onto the runway
for departure.

Once the 152 was out to a reasonable distance, I gradually pushed in the
throttle, enjoying the sights, sounds, and feel of a fine machine
transforming from earth to sky. The power of those 235 horses never fails
to satisfy, and with just Becca in the right seat we fairly leapt off the
runway! Within moments we were climbing at 1200+ feet per minute, right
through 500 AGL, and rapidly over-taking the 152 ahead.

Extending my pattern, and throttling waaaay back, we fell into line behind
the little Cessna. The lights below were just twinkling on, as the sun was
rapidly sinking below the horizon. My daughter sat entranced, her nose up
against the window, enjoying the sight of her hometown unrolling beneath
her...

Flying a 747 pattern, allowing for the much slower 152s to do their touch
and goes, we gradually came around on final. The air was still now, like
molasses, and Atlas slid down the glideslope as if on invisible rails.
Touching down EVER so gently, first left, than right, chirping, I added just
enough power to prevent the nosewheel from touching.

Doing a wheelie for 2000 feet, I gradually added power and we arched back up
into the sky, only to do it all over again...

What a great night to be alive!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > > Oh great, now I'm getting "join your local church" and prayer spam
email.
> >
> > Guess they've given up on me... ;-)
>
> They're just afraid you'll take them up on it ;-)

How's that go: "I wouldn't want to belong to any church that would have me
as a member."?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[L Smith]

Goedel (I think) has proven that in any rational system there will be
true statements that
cannot be proven by recourse only to that system. Put another way, there
are questions
that God doesn't know the answer to.

Rich Lemert

Richard Hertz wrote:

>and which hypothesis in mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is
>the basis for all other math?
>
>
>"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>I've long equated Religion with Mathematics. Each begins with a
>>hypothesis that cannot be proved or disproved, and everything builds
>>on that assumption.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Wdtabor wrote:

> >
> >Get a grip, Larry. I'm sincerely afraid to share the airspace with guys who
> >think someone Else is steering...
> >--
>
> My sister-in-law had one of those "God is my co-pilot" bumper stickers. She got
> really ****ed when I pointed out that if God wrapped it around a tree, he'd be
> back in three days but she would not.

"God was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat
Him."

I've actually seen this on stuff online - tshirts, stickers, something
like that. It suits me!

Brian.

[Don Tuite]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:22:32 -0800, Jim Weir > wrote:

>Dunno. I was wearing one of those black dresses with the white blouse at the
>time. I always saw him from the front {;-)

Maybe at the Lavabo. But you had to be behind him to hold up the
chasuble and tinkle the bell.

Don

[StellaStar]

> in any rational system there will be
>true statements that
>cannot be proven by recourse only to that system. Put another way, there
>are questions
>that God doesn't know the answer to.

Isaac Asimov, a very smart man, said "I prefer rationalism to atheism. The
question of God and other objects-of-faith are outside reason and play no part
in rationalism, thus you don't have to waste your time in either attacking or
defending."

Since I was told the books placed in motel rooms are free for the taking for
those who wish to read them, I have a Book of Mormon. And a Talmud, and a
Koran, several books on comparative religion, and several Bibles including a
Catholic Bible (which has different Commandments, BTW) I read in one that you
are to pray at home in private. I tell people that when they wish to bother me
with their versions of faith.

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Tom S. wrote:

>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:udtvb.268751$Fm2.281695@attbi_s04...
> > > So be nice to those missionaries. The person you are being polite to
> might
> > > just be yourself. :-)
> >
> > Augh! Paradox! Illogic!
> >
> > Must...sterilize...sterilize...sterilize...
> >
> > I.....AM.....NOMAD.
> > --
> Hey, Jay...put copies of "Atlas Shrugged" in the drawers next to the Gideon
> Bibles; that'll freak 'em out.

Nope, do the same with an English translation of the Koran. That'll
*REALLY* get people excited.

Or be fair: equal numbers of KJV Bibles, translated Korans, Torahs, and
one or two others; guests take potluck on what religious propaganda
they've got in their rooms!

Hey, I'm an agnostic, they'll all equally unprovable!

Brian.

[Richard Hertz]

>>>>
Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

>>>>

"smart enough to get a pilot's certificate?"

Who says you have to be smart to get that piece of paper?

Not sure how rude it was - you were certainly free to walk away. It doesn't
seem to be rude to me. I would take more offense at people smoking near me
or not thanking me for holding a door open.

According to their beliefs they were doing the right thing - at least they
were practicing what they believed. I can't imagine it harmed you in any
way.

Good thing you didn't drink the cool aid with them though.

[StellaStar]

>Search engines.

http://www.biblegateway.com/ offers two search windows, in which you can put a
chapter and verse, or a phrase. Take “pray on the street corner.” Input
those words and the program gives you Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not
be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on
the street corners to be seen by men.”

[Brian Burger]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Robert Perkins wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:35:15 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
> >> Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
> >> misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
> >> lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
> >> scripture I know about, *including* the Bible.
> >
> >What do you think about the Baha'i faith?
>
> I think they take their notions too far, (from the couple of brochures
> I've received from them; they had a table in the mall a couple of
> years ago) and you're right about the cult of personality thing.
>
> But most young religions tend towards founder worship, if only a
> little bit.

Well, there's also a whole crop of roughly 2000 year old religions based
largely on founder worship, right?

But I agree with the above about the Baha'i. Interesting concept, anyway.

Brian.

[Teacherjh]

>>
Nope, do the same with an English translation of the Koran. That'll
*REALLY* get people excited.

Or be fair: equal numbers of KJV Bibles, translated Korans, Torahs, and
one or two others; guests take potluck on what religious propaganda
they've got in their rooms!

Hey, I'm an agnostic, they'll all equally unprovable!
<<

Put the Feynmann Lecturs on Physics in the drawer and be done with it. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Dave S]

Ian..Its pretty arrogant and elitist to assume that your religious point
of view is "the one true belief" and trumps all others.

It should be plainly obvious that religion is a creation of man, and not
of a supreme being... because there are too many different flavors.
Hindu, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish and the hundred versions of
protestantism that exist out there..

Jay... my advice is next time... simply say.. "I prefer not to discuss
religion". If that doesnt work, then politely excuse yourself and say,
Im sorry... "But I asked not to talk about this".. and leave. Part of
their game is playing on the "polite obligation" that is part of good
manners. Wether they come knocking on your door in pairs, or flying in
by Mooney, you have no obligation to listen to their proselytic drivel.

Dave

Ian wrote:

>>>Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how being
> raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
> Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the good
> news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
> you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
> and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
> hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
> casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
> they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are people
> there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important, not
> the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
> its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your choice.
> It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever religion
> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
> children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
> If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
> good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has provided
> some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look like,
> where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
> living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
> and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance in
> your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real POH.
> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept. From
> the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
> exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes each
> of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
> entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and Him,
> nobody else. What is it going to be ?
>
>

[Greg Burkhart]

Aviation is a religion...

Our Bethleham is Kitty Hawk
FAA is our Pope
ATC are the priests

and Oshkosh is our Mecca!

[John Ousterhout]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
>how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the
>heathen gods of the other religions.

I can't help but recalling Mel Brooks as Moses (History of the World,
part 1 -- not one of Brooks best films as director).

Moses walks down the hill holding three stone tablets:
"The lord has given me these fifteen..."
he stumbles, drops one tablet, which shatters.
"... these... ah... these TEN Commandments!"

- John (wondering about the other five) Ousterhout -

[Sven]

Heaven is Oshkosh!
Airports and runways are the churches and alters
Communion is Avgas (or mogas!)

We fly to be closer to /our/ God...


> Aviation is a religion...
>
> Our Bethleham is Kitty Hawk
> FAA is our Pope
> ATC are the priests
>
> and Oshkosh is our Mecca!
>
>

[H. Adam Stevens]

Ah I see the Pope is still an idiot in a funny hat.

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Greg Burkhart" wrote)
> > Aviation is a religion...
> >
> > Our Bethleham is Kitty Hawk
> > FAA is our Pope
> > ATC are the priests
> >
> > and Oshkosh is our Mecca!
>
>
> NASA ......................Scientology
> FAR ..........................Bible
> Wine ........................ Wine
>
> Easter Morning .......The day after your annual <g>
>
> --
> Montblack
>
>
>
>
>

[Montblack]

("Greg Burkhart" wrote)
> Aviation is a religion...
>
> Our Bethleham is Kitty Hawk
> FAA is our Pope
> ATC are the priests
>
> and Oshkosh is our Mecca!


NASA ......................Scientology
FAR ..........................Bible
Wine ........................ Wine

Easter Morning .......The day after your annual <g>

--
Montblack

[C J Campbell]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
|
| >
| And let's not get into the infinite regression that a concept of "god"
| requires.
|

No, let's not. After all, I personally am very religious. Worse, in the eyes
of many here, I am a Mormon. My concept of God does not require infinite
regression. However, I have no interest in any serious discussion of
religious belief in this forum. (Some would argue that I have no interest in
serious discussion of any topic.) :-)

[smackey]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04>...
> > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Jay,

I always tell my clients that the easiest thing to do is to simply
tell the truth. This is sometimes so easy and obvious that people
just overlook it. Next time something like this occurs, simply say:

I understand your feelings about this, but discussing religion is
not something I want to do. I met you guys at the airport and
recognized a common interest in flying. That's why we sat down here.
So, tell me about that nice Mooney you have... .


BTW, I got a big laugh out of the story; I could just hear these
guys, and feel your discomfort.

Steve M

[Jim Weir]

We served from the side.


Jim




Don Tuite >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:22:32 -0800, Jim Weir > wrote:
->
->>Dunno. I was wearing one of those black dresses with the white blouse at the
->>time. I always saw him from the front {;-)
->
->Maybe at the Lavabo. But you had to be behind him to hold up the
->chasuble and tinkle the bell.
->
->Don

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[C J Campbell]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
| >>
| Nope, do the same with an English translation of the Koran. That'll
| *REALLY* get people excited.
|
| Or be fair: equal numbers of KJV Bibles, translated Korans, Torahs, and
| one or two others; guests take potluck on what religious propaganda
| they've got in their rooms!
|
| Hey, I'm an agnostic, they'll all equally unprovable!
| <<
|
| Put the Feynmann Lecturs on Physics in the drawer and be done with it. :)
|

I personally would prefer Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" or anything by
James Randi. Or even Hawking's book "An Illustrated History of Time."

After all, us religious fanatics like to carry our scriptures around in our
PDA.

[Jim Weir]

The best one I've ever heard about was the "Sacred Church Of Larry's Bar And
Grill" down in the Los Angeles area.

Larry's Bar and Grill had topless waitresses. Some of them began to have less
clothes than that. The California ABC moved to shut down the place.

They closed for two weeks. They reopened as the "Sacred Church..." with all the
appropriate paperwork and such. Now the "vestal virgins" can wear anything or
nothing, as they see fit. The holy sacrament of beer is free. However, you had
damned well better "tithe" for your beer or the "holy monks" will take you
outside and cleanse you of your bad habits.

And, the whole damn thing is tax deductible.

Jim



EDR >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->
->Back in the 80's when people were forming churches for the tax
->deductions, a couple pilot friends discussed forming the Church of
->Whats Happening Now. Their airplanes were to be donated to the church
->so that all their fuel and flying could be deducted as church business.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Chris W]

Sven wrote:

> Heaven is Oshkosh!

No, no, no. . . Heaven is Oshkosh where all the vendors have an
unlimited supply of free samples :)


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City, OK

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Montblack]

("C J Campbell" wrote)
>
> No, let's not. After all, I personally am very religious. Worse, in
the eyes
> of many here, I am a Mormon. My concept of God does not require
infinite
> regression. However, I have no interest in any serious discussion of
> religious belief in this forum. (Some would argue that I have no
interest in
> serious discussion of any topic.) :-)


Hey Homie .....or should I say Mormie <g>

When you say *For the Homeland* ...you mean Minnesota too - not just the
Great Salt Lake basin, right?

BTW. Why don't we ever get the Marie Osmond kind of Mormons coming to
the door? You know - cute!!

--
Montblack
Catholic, with a shotgun under my matress. Waiting for marching orders
from The Pope.

[Verbs Under My Gel]

"Ian" > wrote in message >...
> > > Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
>
> All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
> politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to it.
>
> It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how being
> raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
> Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the good
> news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
> you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
> and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
> hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
> casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
> they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are people
> there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important, not
> the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
> its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your choice.
> It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever religion
> you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
> judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should have
> listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
> this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
> children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
> If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
> right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
> good person, then you've got it all backwards.
>
> Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has provided
> some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look like,
> where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
> living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
> and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance in
> your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real POH.
> It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
> that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
> inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept. From
> the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
> exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes each
> of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
> entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and Him,
> nobody else. What is it going to be ?

OK, I'll admit it...I'm confused. Who's trolling, Jay or Ian? For
the love of the Golden Calf, this is an _aviation_ newsgroup!

[Verbs Under My Gel]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message >...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> >
> > ???
> >
> > What chip am I carrying?
>
> Re-read your own post. The whole tone is one of over-reaction. Granted,
> these guys were obnoxiously intrusive, no excuse, but you do sort of carry
> on about them. From the time they said Grace before lunch, you took
> thirteen paragraphs to relate something that could have been told in three
> or four. I think you really *wanted* to rant. Clearly, evangelizing
> organized religion is a hot-button with you.
>
> >And how have they ruined more than my lunch?
> >
>
> By your own account, you and Mary rehashed the event all the way home. I'm
> betting the subject wasn't dropped on arrival back at Iowa City, either.
> And the following day you were still incensed enough to post a rather
> lengthy message to the NG. So, these guys had you locked and stressed for a
> day and a half, anyway.
>
> Jay, I'm no missionary, but I'm not an atheist or agnostic, either. There
> are whackos everywhere, in all walks of life. There are guys I know in
> airline cockpits I wouldn't want moving into my neighborhood! You just
> can't let them get you wired like this!
>
> That's all I meant.
>
> JG

Who hit a "hot button" with whom?

[Blanche Cohen]

I'm reminded of Shakespeare at this time, and one of the many
great lines, this one from the comedy As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143)

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players."

And if the Reviews don't get better, She's going to close the show!

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Wdtabor wrote:

> >
> >Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> >--
>
> Well, when the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses come to my door, I find it works
> well to ask them to come back at a time when my wife and my Mistress can both
> be present to hear them.

That's nasty. I like it.

Next time either mob arrives at my door, I'm going to ask for the address
of their nearest meeting place, and the time of the next weekend service.
I'm sure they'll smell a convert...

Then I'll tell them that I'll arrive about 30 minutes after the service
starts with an armful of National Geographic & New Scientist, hammer on
the door until someone answers, and harangue them about evolution and the
scientific method.

Hey, if they can bang on my door, what goes around comes around... :)

Brian.

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Larry Fransson wrote:

> On 2003-11-21 13:03:41 -0800, (Jim Buckridge) said:
>
> > I still don't understand how people who consider themselves true
> > followers of Christ rationalize spending money on frivolous flight.
> > Just getting the PPL costs over $5K. That money would have gone a
> > long long way to feeding hungry people, or paying the way for
> > missionaries to spread the word....
>
> I know one guy who was getting flight training just so that he could go and fly for one of the missionary flight organizations - MAF, I think. I also work with a guy who took a year off from flying professionally to go fly for a missionary organization in Central America.


You know, this is about the only reason I can think of to get religion.
Those missionary pilots do some seriously interesting flying, into places
nobody else goes. The amount of social/medical aid they deliver *might*
even outweigh the damage they do by bringing actual missionaries in.

Are there any secular groups that do this sort of humanitarian flying in
the developing world?

Brian.

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Robert Perkins wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
> >>religion?
> >
> > People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
> > religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
> > not to kill for the first time.
>
> If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
> the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.

That's more or less what Richard Dawkins said just after Sept 11/01:

http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html

Brilliant guy. Thanks to whoever posted the FfRF URL earlier in this
thread!

Brian.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 11/20/03 7:21 PM:

> He
> allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an observation
> that made us laugh out loud.

They were probably meeting William Bennett.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 11/20/03 7:21 PM:

> We
> realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps removed
> from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
> only difference being their hair style and their dogma.

What, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson gloating after 9-11 that we " got what
we had coming " didn't tip you off?

[C J Campbell]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| Hey Homie .....or should I say Mormie <g>
|
| When you say *For the Homeland* ...you mean Minnesota too - not just the
| Great Salt Lake basin, right?

Well, since I am not from the Great Basin area I don't regard Salt Lake as
any kind of 'home.' However, after the 2002 Winter Olympics and its flight
restrictions I figure we got as many homeland types there as there are in
DC.

|
| BTW. Why don't we ever get the Marie Osmond kind of Mormons coming to
| the door? You know - cute!!
|

I will see what I can do. Or would you prefer Buffy?

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:05:52 -0800, Brian Burger
> wrote:

>> If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
>> the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.
>
>That's more or less what Richard Dawkins said just after Sept 11/01:
>
>http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html

It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but
Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist
belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've
proven to have behaved.

In harping on "religion", he misses that point, and so I don't care
what his letters and credentials are, he's demagoguing.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:46:10 GMT, "Richard Hertz"
> wrote:

>You're kidding right?

Well, first of all, you're mixing terms. "Hypothesis" is a term used
in scientific method, to propose something that is observed, but isn't
proven consistent. It doesn't exist in mathematics; proposals of
mathematic properties are called "theorems". But I set that aside;
this is casual conversation, after all.

Bear with me here, everyone. I'm going to make a pretty good point or
two, in my opinion.

Mathematical fundaments are composed of "Postulates", such as "A point
is defined as a location in space", "A line is defined as the
one-dimensional measure of distance between two points", and, "The
shortest distance between two points is a line".

Those are "postulates", specifically of Euclidean geometry. "Theorems"
arise from logical conclusions of the interactions of the postulates.
The ideas that triangles have certain properties, such as the sum of
their angles equalling pi radians, are "theorems".

Casually, these are sometimes called "laws", as in the "Law of
Cosines". Non-Euclidean geometries, necessary for doing things like
traversing the surface of a sphere (and none of us have *ever* done
that, oh, no!), does *not* have, as a postulate, that the shortest
distance between two points is a straight line; there are *no*
straight lines in spherical geometries.

For natural philosophers, people like physicists and mathemeticians,
the discovery (or rediscovery) of alternate but valid geometric
rulesets has resulted in several very useful discoveries, one of which
being Einstein's body of thought on relativity, flawed as we now know
it to be (but haven't come up with an all-encompassing replacement).

One other result of the re-examination of Euclidean thinking has been
the formulation of Theorems which deny the principal assumption of
great works like the _Principia Mathematica_, Goedel's Theorem
probably the most popular among them.

The upshot of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem is mathematical proof
that "any self-consistent axiomatic system powerful enough to describe
integer arithmetic will allow for propositions about integers that can
neither be proven nor disproven from the axioms." [from the Wikipedia
article on Goedel]

Euclidean geometry is more powerful than integer arithmetic.

That is, logical systems powerful enough to be useful will contain
unprovable axioms. So the question, "Which [axiom or theorem] in
mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is the basis for all
other math?" is simply an utterly unanswerable question, given a
powerful enough system. Goedel proved it years ago. What *can* be said
is that "some axioms are unprovable, which doesn't mean they're false
or true."

Mathematics itself is today in a state alongside physics and most
natural science, of great uncertainty about the "Great Unknowables",
therefore, while depending on mathematical fundamentals will be
remarkably and consistently useful (can't compute a weight and balance
and then observe performance, or watch your climb rate go down as
altitude goes up, without noticing that), you just never know if your
system will stand up to new stuff.

Kind of like religion, that way, which works for most people. Until it
doesn't. Except for mine, of course. :-)

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:24:57 GMT, "mike regish" >
wrote:

>I never got taught that in grammar. "He" is only capitalized if it's the
>first word of a sentence or in a title.

I attribute that more to the paucity of grammar teaching in schools
these days, than to what is actually correct. I was taught to
capitalize the pronouns for God in 1982, in the ninth grade, in public
school.

For example:

http://www.montanalife.com/writing/Capitalization.html

"Note: Capitalize God only when it refers to the Christian God; also
capitalize all nouns and personal pronouns when they refer to God."

....is consistent with what I was taught.

Rob

>
>mike regish
>
>"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:18:27 GMT, "mike regish" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god, but
>why
>> >do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"
>>
>> Because the grammatical rules of Standard American English call for
>> it, Mike.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> --
>> [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
>> ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
>> educate themselves.
>>
>> -- Orson Scott Card
>


--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:15:29 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>I personally would prefer Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" or anything by
>James Randi. Or even Hawking's book "An Illustrated History of Time."
>
>After all, us religious fanatics like to carry our scriptures around in our
>PDA.

Hear hear! The day I moved to Pocket PC my load at church meetings
dropped from bag full o books to pocket full o PDA. Now I help carry
my kids.

I'm still looking for good freeware W&B and E6B calculators for Pocket
PC 2002. Anyone know of any?

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:47:12 -0600, "Montblack"
> wrote:

>Hey Homie .....or should I say Mormie <g>

<g>

I go to CJ's Church, too.

>When you say *For the Homeland* ...you mean Minnesota too - not just the
>Great Salt Lake basin, right?

I think he's from Washington State. So am I, for that matter.

>BTW. Why don't we ever get the Marie Osmond kind of Mormons coming to
>the door? You know - cute!!

They assign them all to the visitor's centers! You have to go to
*them*. Otherwise you get your lessons from the young men, y'know! :-)

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Happy Dog]

"Brian Burger" > wrote in message

> Are there any secular groups that do this sort of humanitarian flying in
> the developing world?

No. Just secular pilots who put up with the bull**** to get a job.

erf

[Happy Dog]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message

> >http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html
>
> It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but
> Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist
> belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've
> proven to have behaved.

Nope. That isn't a conclusion of the preceding material. And, where did
you get that reference from?

mo

rd

[Happy Dog]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message

> The upshot of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem is mathematical proof
> that "any self-consistent axiomatic system powerful enough to describe
> integer arithmetic will allow for propositions about integers that can
> neither be proven nor disproven from the axioms." [from the Wikipedia
> article on Goedel]
>
> Euclidean geometry is more powerful than integer arithmetic.

Interesting POV. I gather that you're not a physicist. Empirical experiment
is still the gold standard. You haven't identified which parts of SR fall
falt under this type of confrontation. You haven't identified *any* current
physical models which whither under the light of empirical testing.
>
> That is, logical systems powerful enough to be useful will contain
> unprovable axioms. So the question, "Which [axiom or theorem] in
> mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is the basis for all
> other math?" is simply an utterly unanswerable question, given a
> powerful enough system. Goedel proved it years ago. What *can* be said
> is that "some axioms are unprovable, which doesn't mean they're false
> or true."
>
> Mathematics itself is today in a state alongside physics and most
> natural science, of great uncertainty about the "Great Unknowables",
> therefore, while depending on mathematical fundamentals will be
> remarkably and consistently useful (can't compute a weight and balance
> and then observe performance, or watch your climb rate go down as
> altitude goes up, without noticing that), you just never know if your
> system will stand up to new stuff.

That's the same as saying that you'll never know anything. About anything.
Your musings about science today being in a state of great unknowing ignores
most of recent scientific history. (When *everything* was unknown.)
>
> Kind of like religion, that way, which works for most people. Until it
> doesn't. Except for mine, of course. :-)

Nothing like religion at all. You haven't made any case for that statement.

le moo

[Ben Dover]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:18:27 GMT, "mike regish" >
> wrote:
>
> >I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god, but
why
> >do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"
>
> Because the grammatical rules of Standard American English

Now that is an oxymoron if ever there was

[Thomas Borchert]

Andrew,

> Why do most people not simply laugh these zealots off the stage?
>

Because they're the administration? <gd&r>

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Chris,

> some times he even helps those who are too
> stupid to help themselves :)
>

and that really messes up Darwinism ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:hPuvb.69669$Dw6.355695@attbi_s02...
>
> Personally, I feel that we work too damned hard for our money to donate it
> to organized criminals.

Are you referring to congresscritters, or preachers?

[Richard Hertz]

Hose****.

> >You're kidding right?
>
> Well, first of all, you're mixing terms. "Hypothesis" is a term used
> in scientific method, to propose something that is observed, but isn't
> proven consistent. It doesn't exist in mathematics; proposals of
> mathematic properties are called "theorems". But I set that aside;
> this is casual conversation, after all.

I did not mix terms - I used the term that someone else used and asked for
elaboration. Not my confusion.

>
> Bear with me here, everyone. I'm going to make a pretty good point or
> two, in my opinion.

Can't wait...

>
> Mathematical fundaments are composed of "Postulates", such as "A point
> is defined as a location in space", "A line is defined as the
> one-dimensional measure of distance between two points", and, "The
> shortest distance between two points is a line".
>
> Those are "postulates", specifically of Euclidean geometry. "Theorems"
> arise from logical conclusions of the interactions of the postulates.
> The ideas that triangles have certain properties, such as the sum of
> their angles equalling pi radians, are "theorems".
>
> Casually, these are sometimes called "laws", as in the "Law of
> Cosines". Non-Euclidean geometries, necessary for doing things like
> traversing the surface of a sphere (and none of us have *ever* done
> that, oh, no!), does *not* have, as a postulate, that the shortest
> distance between two points is a straight line; there are *no*
> straight lines in spherical geometries.

Um, but the shortest distance between two points is STILL a stright line...
Unfortunately you can't travel through the earth.


>
> For natural philosophers, people like physicists and mathemeticians,
> the discovery (or rediscovery) of alternate but valid geometric
> rulesets has resulted in several very useful discoveries, one of which
> being Einstein's body of thought on relativity, flawed as we now know
> it to be (but haven't come up with an all-encompassing replacement).
>
> One other result of the re-examination of Euclidean thinking has been
> the formulation of Theorems which deny the principal assumption of
> great works like the _Principia Mathematica_, Goedel's Theorem
> probably the most popular among them.
>
> The upshot of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem is mathematical proof
> that "any self-consistent axiomatic system powerful enough to describe
> integer arithmetic will allow for propositions about integers that can
> neither be proven nor disproven from the axioms." [from the Wikipedia
> article on Goedel]
>
> Euclidean geometry is more powerful than integer arithmetic.
>
> That is, logical systems powerful enough to be useful will contain
> unprovable axioms. So the question, "Which [axiom or theorem] in
> mathematics can't be proven or shown false that is the basis for all
> other math?" is simply an utterly unanswerable question, given a
> powerful enough system. Goedel proved it years ago. What *can* be said
> is that "some axioms are unprovable, which doesn't mean they're false
> or true."

I asked for which basic tenet was unprovable. My point was that the
original poster of this math == religion thread was not making sense.
There is nothing similar about them. Goedel (and Turing's equivalent with
the halting problem) have nothing to do with this conversation. You still
haven't answered the question - you have just tried to make the whole bit
sound more complicated than it is. And I am sure we are all impressed with
the disussion or Euclid, Theorems, incompleteness, etc.


>
> Mathematics itself is today in a state alongside physics and most
> natural science, of great uncertainty about the "Great Unknowables",
> therefore, while depending on mathematical fundamentals will be
> remarkably and consistently useful (can't compute a weight and balance
> and then observe performance, or watch your climb rate go down as
> altitude goes up, without noticing that), you just never know if your
> system will stand up to new stuff.
>
> Kind of like religion, that way, which works for most people. Until it
> doesn't. Except for mine, of course. :-)
>

I still don't see how that is anything like religion.

[Judah]

Thomas Borchert > wrote in
:

> Of course, if indeed I should end up standing in front of St. Peter or
> Jesus on Judgement Day, it will be a major "Oops"-moment. ;-)

Nah - you have nothing to worry about... I have it on good authority that
the Jews were right anyway.

[Tom S.]

I draw a chalk outline of a body on the front steps and toss religious tracts around it. Works really well at keeping 'em away.
"Sridhar Rajagopal" > wrote in message ...
Jay, Jay, Jay! Look at the hornet's nest you have stirred up! Interesting post, and one that I can relate to, except it wasn't in a casino by an airport, but at the front door of my own home! I guess I got a Book of Mormon out of the whole deal (and not much more), so it wasn't so bad! Of course, they were back for a follow up session a few days later, and the chicken that I am, I got my roommate to tell them that I wasn't there (and he told them that he was not interested)! Ah well .....

[Thomas Borchert]

Judah,

> Nah - you have nothing to worry about... I have it on good authority that
> the Jews were right anyway.
>

Oh really? I thought it was Buddha.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

>Reading Scet's post below, I must saw that I thought differently too. I had
seen some of your conservative views (especially after 9/11), and so was all
the
> more surprised by your post. I guess conservative, and religious don't
necessarily go in the same sentence! :-) What do you know - you learn
something new > everyday!

Which is why we desperately need a third political party in the U.S.. IMHO,
"my" Republican Party -- the "Alex Keaton Conservtive Party" of the 1980s--
has withered and died under the acidic influence of the Religious Right.

Worse, Republicans are no longer fiscally conservative by any stretch of the
imagination.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Sven wrote:
>
> Heaven is Oshkosh!

Lessee here - your idea of heaven is a place where force 8 T-storms blow through
without warning, it's 110 degrees one day and brass monkeys the next, and you
need replacement feet every night? Yet another religion I'll pass up.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[G.R. Patterson III]

John Ousterhout wrote:
>
> - John (wondering about the other five) Ousterhout -

Well, you can find them in Levitticus. There are actually something like 116
commandments. They're usually called the "law of Moses". There's a section in
the New Testament in which Jesus says that a man should do his best to obey all
of the commandments, but under no circumstances should he violate the ten that
he felt were most important. This has been corrupted by Christian leaders to
the concept that there are only ten commandments.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

[Jim]

Larry truly was a visionary. Hail Larry!! May your congregation grow and
your church spread through out the land!! ;)
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> The best one I've ever heard about was the "Sacred Church Of Larry's Bar
And
> Grill" down in the Los Angeles area.
>
> Larry's Bar and Grill had topless waitresses. Some of them began to have
less
> clothes than that. The California ABC moved to shut down the place.
>
> They closed for two weeks. They reopened as the "Sacred Church..." with
all the
> appropriate paperwork and such. Now the "vestal virgins" can wear
anything or
> nothing, as they see fit. The holy sacrament of beer is free. However,
you had
> damned well better "tithe" for your beer or the "holy monks" will take you
> outside and cleanse you of your bad habits.
>
> And, the whole damn thing is tax deductible.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> EDR >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->
> ->Back in the 80's when people were forming churches for the tax
> ->deductions, a couple pilot friends discussed forming the Church of
> ->Whats Happening Now. Their airplanes were to be donated to the church
> ->so that all their fuel and flying could be deducted as church business.
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim]

Amen!
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:dGKvb.273791$HS4.2421772@attbi_s01...
>
> Which is why we desperately need a third political party in the U.S..
IMHO,
> "my" Republican Party -- the "Alex Keaton Conservtive Party" of the
1980s--
> has withered and died under the acidic influence of the Religious Right.
>
> Worse, Republicans are no longer fiscally conservative by any stretch of
the
> imagination.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jim]

Better yet, when they hand you a copy of Lighthouse or what ever they call
it, offer them a copy of the Adam and Eve sex toy catalog.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Brian Burger" > wrote in message
ia.tc.ca...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Wdtabor wrote:
>
> > >
> > >Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
> > >--
> >
> > Well, when the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses come to my door, I find it
works
> > well to ask them to come back at a time when my wife and my Mistress can
both
> > be present to hear them.
>
> That's nasty. I like it.
>
> Next time either mob arrives at my door, I'm going to ask for the address
> of their nearest meeting place, and the time of the next weekend service.
> I'm sure they'll smell a convert...
>
> Then I'll tell them that I'll arrive about 30 minutes after the service
> starts with an armful of National Geographic & New Scientist, hammer on
> the door until someone answers, and harangue them about evolution and the
> scientific method.
>
> Hey, if they can bang on my door, what goes around comes around... :)
>
> Brian.

[Thomas Borchert]

G.R.,

> This has been corrupted by Christian leaders
>

I must say: I am shocked! Shocked!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[David Hill]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Reading Scet's post below, I must saw that I thought differently too. I had
>
> seen some of your conservative views (especially after 9/11), and so was all
> the
>
>>more surprised by your post. I guess conservative, and religious don't
>
> necessarily go in the same sentence! :-) What do you know - you learn
> something new > everyday!
>
> Which is why we desperately need a third political party in the U.S.. IMHO,
> "my" Republican Party -- the "Alex Keaton Conservtive Party" of the 1980s--
> has withered and died under the acidic influence of the Religious Right.

We've got a third party already -- The Libertarian Party.
<http://www.libertarianism.com/>

When I was young and idealistic, I swore I would never vote a straight
party ticket, that I would always vote for or against individuals. Now
that I'm old and cynical, if there's a Libertarian running, I vote for
him/her.

There are still some things about Libertarian philosophy I'm not sure
will work, but I figure if only 90% of what they espouse sounds good to
me, that's way better than the 10% the Republicrats score.

Oh, BTW, growing up in the Bible Belt, I learned early how to deal with
people trying to convert me. My best friend in high school ended up
being a missionary. We used to get into some fine arguments, er,
discussions. He learned more bible verses from me than I learned from
him.

In the end, as adults, he was the one who couldn't handle talking to me
any more. Especially after I said something about starting a "Bikers
for Buddha" club.

--
David Hill, Buddhist
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

filters, they're not just for coffee anymore

[Blanche Cohen]

CoPilot.

Check out Handango.

W&B, E6B, other great stuff.

[Greg Burkhart]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Sven wrote:
> >
> > Heaven is Oshkosh!
>
> Lessee here - your idea of heaven is a place where force 8 T-storms blow
through
> without warning, it's 110 degrees one day and brass monkeys the next, and
you
> need replacement feet every night? Yet another religion I'll pass up.

Oshkosh is then aviation's religion version of Hell or purgatory?

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:26:14 -0500, "Happy Dog"
> wrote:

>"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
>
>> >http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html
>>
>> It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but
>> Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist
>> belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've
>> proven to have behaved.
>
>Nope. That isn't a conclusion of the preceding material. And, where did
>you get that reference from?

The reference came from two posts up. As for your rejoinder, Dawkins
wrote:

"The human psyche has two great sicknesses: the urge to carry vendetta
across generations, and the tendency to fasten group labels on people
rather than see them as individuals. Abrahamic religion gives strong
sanction to both--and mixes explosively with both."

(In his sidebar, he ranted it.)

This opens up a serious hole in all his reasoning, because at the very
least the texts of *two* of the three Abrahamic religions he cites
deny its followers any excuse to answer the urges of vendetta and
racism or theism at all.

The Law of Moses' "Eye for eye" rule is one: it's a *retreat* from
multi generational vendetta, and a demand that the followers of the
Mosaic covenant consider individual wrongdoing to the exclusion of
group wrongdoing. [1]

The central Christian law is "Love God, Love Your Neighbor". "Bless
those that curse you. Do good to those who despitefully use you and
persecute you." "Don't take revenge, vengeance is God's" Long letters
about personal and institutional charity, without which the Christian
is nothing at all, and God cannot save him. Also individualistic. Also
a denial of the impulse to vendetta and racism.

I don't know much about Islamic doctrine, but *all* of the Muslims
I've ever met have been remarkably tolerant and peaceful people living
in a mixed culture of many religions. They live a denial of the
impulse to vendetta and racism. (And have historically, as a *whole*
done a relatively better job of it than Christians ever did.)

The centers of these belief systems direct individual behavior. It's
only to the extent that thugs and demagogues use sophistry within
those systems that we come out with the warped abuses which produce
"fundamentalists" (even that appellation is a lie; Judeochristian
fundamentals don't permit aggressive warmaking) of all stripes.

I agree with the author that religion is in the mix, but natural human
impulses, not religion, are at the root of the violent organized
murder of the last 100 years, almost all of which were undertaken
without "religion" as the root excuse. World Communism, as
implemented, murdered 100,000,000 people. No "religion" there! Since
other "non-religious" philosophies have mixed "explosively" with the
sicknesses of the human psyche, his case is not made.

Sky god indeed. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and could
probably benefit from a look at all the "Christian" nations which now
live nominally in *peace* with one another, having overthrown their
own thugs in favor of implementing the individualistic fundaments of
that Judeochristian ethical center. He could also benefit from an
objective look at Leviticus.

Rob
[1] And if you look closely at what Israel does to its enemy
neighbors, you'll see that its behavior is virtually always
retaliatory self-defense. Israelis target the badguys "eye for eye",
hitting innocents only when the thugs hide behind them or among them.

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:dGKvb.273791$HS4.2421772@attbi_s01...
> Which is why we desperately need a third political party in the U.S..
IMHO,
> "my" Republican Party -- the "Alex Keaton Conservtive Party" of the
1980s--
> has withered and died under the acidic influence of the Religious Right.
>
> Worse, Republicans are no longer fiscally conservative by any stretch of
the
> imagination.

So it seems. It is looking more and more that they are a single issue
(religion) party. I was reading recently how stock markets always do better
under DEMOCRATIC administrations. Weird, huh? If that is indeed true (and
not due to timing coincidences, etc) then maybe it has to do with
interference with the free marketplace by excessive catering to inefficient
special corporate interests (good for their friends but bad for the economy
in general). But, what are we to do now? Both the Democratic and the
Republican parties have serious shortcomings, yet there is no current viable
alternative. Maybe we should be allowed to vote for more than one party;
that way a new party could be nurtured into existence without unduly
influencing the current balance.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> Lessee here - your idea of heaven is a place where force 8 T-storms blow
through
> without warning, it's 110 degrees one day and brass monkeys the next, and
you
> need replacement feet every night? Yet another religion I'll pass up.

You mean it's like that all every year there?

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:41:20 GMT, "Richard Hertz"
> wrote:

>Hose****.

Starting with fallacy. Not a good sign...

>I did not mix terms - I used the term that someone else used and asked for
>elaboration. Not my confusion.

OK, Usenet attribution mea culpa.

>Um, but the shortest distance between two points is STILL a stright line...
>Unfortunately you can't travel through the earth.

....thus necessitating the use of non-Euclidean geometries. Don't
forget that the point of philosophy really is to come up with useful
stuff.

>I asked for which basic tenet was unprovable. My point was that the
>original poster of this math == religion thread was not making sense.
>There is nothing similar about them.
[...]
>I still don't see how that is anything like religion.

The single undeniable similarity between math and religion is that
they are both philosophical systems, based on unproved (and maybe
unprovable) axioms and definitions.

Math: "A 'point' is defined as..."
Math: "The set of 'Integers' is defined as..."

(Aristotlean) Religion: "'God' is defined as..."
(Aristotlean) Religion: "'Sin' is defined as..."

You're right, of course, if you want to say that the similarity ends
there. But IMO involving the Incompleteness Theorem when talking about
complex axiomatic[1] systems is perfectly valid. The systems are
axiomatic and complex, whether you use the language of religion or the
language of mathematics to describe them. *Especially* orthodox
Christianity, whose apologist Thomas Aquinas (I'm told), made enough
of a significant case for basing scriptural understanding on
Aristotlean philosophical underpinnings that the comparison is
unavoidable.

Mathematics is also based on Euclidean rules of reasoning, the same
rules Aristotle used to build his thoughts. Therefore comparing the
two is not invalid.

>you have just tried to make the whole bit
>sound more complicated than it is.

So I have. It's because I believe that it is a far more complicated
problem than a blanket dismissal of "religion" can solve.

> And I am sure we are all impressed with
>the disussion or Euclid, Theorems, incompleteness, etc.

I hope so! It was more than a little bit of work.

Rob
[1] In theology I suppose they'd call it "dogmatic"

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Jim Weir]

Yes, an aviation newsgroup replete with newbies that haven't FREAKIN' LEARNED
HOW TO SNIP.


Jim




(Verbs Under My Gel)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->
->OK, I'll admit it...I'm confused. Who's trolling, Jay or Ian? For
->the love of the Golden Calf, this is an _aviation_ newsgroup!



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:33:39 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Judah,
>
>> Nah - you have nothing to worry about... I have it on good authority that
>> the Jews were right anyway.
>>
>
>Oh really? I thought it was Buddha.

He was right, too. Except where he wasn't.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:47:37 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>
>Which is why we desperately need a third political party in the U.S.. IMHO,
>"my" Republican Party -- the "Alex Keaton Conservtive Party" of the 1980s--
>has withered and died under the acidic influence of the Religious Right.
>
>Worse, Republicans are no longer fiscally conservative by any stretch of the
>imagination.

Lost to them as they picked up Centrist notions. The Democrats lobbed
their disenchanted over the walls of the Republican fortress.

I'd be in favor of *four* major political parties. One each for the
hard lefties and righties, and two centrist parties who can focus more
or less on term-to-term tactical issues.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:58:05 -0500, Andrew Gideon >
wrote:

>That's not quite my point, though. Yes, there are various means whereby one
>can oppress. But Rob had written that religion can be used "to break down
>a person's natural inclination not to kill for the first time."
>
>Can Marxist Communism be used that way?

Yes! It's still being used that way!

>Still...that just means that the disarming needs to go beyond religions.

Yes! But what it *doesn't* mean is that there is any need to tear
apart the philosophical underpinnings of the billions of people who
*don't* abuse religious notions to foment tyranny.

>It can be practiced as such, I expect.

Yes!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card