Tow Pilot Rand/Question

[Dan Marotta]

This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow in
800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.

It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll take
a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the pilot
will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink
and hit the magic 3,000' and release!

I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -
even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.

Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice
maueuvers?"

Rant over...

[T[_2_]]

On May 10, 7:34*am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
> from tow release to landing. *The pilot stated that he released from tow in
> 800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.
>
> It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll take
> a tow to 3,000 feet." *Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the pilot
> will hang on to the rope. *He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink
> and hit the magic 3,000' and release!
>
> I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
> operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -
> even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.
>
> Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
> objectives of the flight." *I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
> judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice
> maueuvers?"
>
> Rant over...

Hopefully if you were in sink, you were attempting to turn back to the
lift when the glider released?
Many times the instructor will want straight tows with shallow turns
to accomplish training, slack line, box wake etc. and then the tow
pilot should be free to return to a known lift area.

You did not say if this was an instructional flight, solo student or
rated pilot.
I've had pilots tell me.. straight out.. into the wind. They get off
when they are ready. It is a currency flight for them, not interested
in soaring.

At the end of the day... it's still the customers dollars..

T

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 14:34 10 May 2012, Dan Marotta wrote:
>This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink

>from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow
in
>
>800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.
>
>It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll
take
>
>a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the
pilot
>
>will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink

>and hit the magic 3,000' and release!
>
>I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
>operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -

>even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.
>
>Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
>objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
>judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice

>maueuvers?"
>
>Rant over...


>
>ahh the barametric release system, works well for the accounts department
when all the release hights are the same.In reallity if its a trial
flight you give them what they have paid for if you are paying you you
release as soon as your confidence exceeds your lack of same.

[Walt Connelly]

This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow in
800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.

It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll take
a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the pilot
will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink
and hit the magic 3,000' and release!

I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -
even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.

Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice
maueuvers?"

Rant over...

Feel free to rant away. I made the observation of encountering 800 fpm of sink upon release. My point was that these things occur on occasion and if not handled quickly and appropriately it might result in being low in the pattern resulting in the crash that occurred. I was relatively inexperienced at the time (and by some standards may well still be) but recognized that the circumstances might well preclude my ability to return to the airport and land safely if I didn't get ahead of the situation. Fortunately I received my glider training from two old buzzards with thousands of hours of experience and benefited from listening to their advice. I usually take a tow to 3000 feet but on occasion will release if I encounter exceptional lift. Too often though one flys thru lift, turns and can't find said lift again. Often times it's a 50/50 chance of turning in the right direction and when wrong it requires some searching to find adequate lift to climb. The bottom line is that with an extra 1000 feet prior to release one has that extra opportunity. I learned to fly gliders in November and December in Florida and don't once remember encountering lift while flying with an instructor. Most days were cold, wet and dreary with heavy overcast. I'm sure that most instructors will release in lift to give their student the opportunity to thermal to altitude. I'm just glad that it was drilled into me to err on the side of caution and insure that I had sufficient altitude to fly a reasonable pattern, maintain adequate airspeed and land safely. That's what it's all about.

Walt Connelly
Commercial Pilot/Airplanes and Gliders
and still learning

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:34:53 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
> from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow in
> 800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.
>
> It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll take
> a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the pilot
> will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink
> and hit the magic 3,000' and release!
>
> I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
> operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -
> even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.
>
> Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
> objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
> judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice
> maueuvers?"
>
> Rant over...

I learned to release in lift early in my training (probably first page in
the logbook). I'd try releasing and going back to the thermal we'd hit
earlier, but could never find it. The instructor told me to release in lift
instead.

Last year I was climbing nicely in our house thermal. One of our rated (ATP!)
pilots was on tow going by me. The tow pilot pointed me out. He stayed on
for a couple more minutes, released, and tried to go back to my thermal.
I took pity on him, pulled spoilers, and tried to show him the lift. Twice.
I climbed up from 1100 AGL finally, and he had a 15 minute flight.

It did make for a good ground lesson afterwards...

-- Matt

[rlovinggood]

At contests that I attend, we have pre-paid for 2,000' agl tows. Why get off any lower? There's a chance of getting off lower and missing the thermal, then having to work like crazy to get back up to release height, all before the gate has opened. I don't want to have to work before the gate opens; I just want to relax a little and save my concentration to spot the other gliders that are out there. They are marking thermals, so there isn't a need to pull the release below the 2,000' agl mark.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Dan Marotta]

No disrespect meant, Walt.

My point was that you should get off in lift, not in sink. If there was
sink at your planned release altitude, you should stay on until you get into
lift. Of course, if there's no lift, you have to do what you have to do.

By convention, you have to turn right when you release (in the USA, at
least). If you know the lift is to your left, you can make your right turn
to clear the rope and then immediately turn left into the lift.
Alternatively, you can make a right 270 and you should hit the lift.


"Walt Connelly" > wrote in message
...
>
> Dan Marotta;814591 Wrote:
>> This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high
>> sink
>> from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow
>> in
>> 800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.
>>
>> It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll
>> take
>> a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the
>> pilot
>> will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through
>> sink
>> and hit the magic 3,000' and release!
>>
>> I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
>> operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift
>> -
>> even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.
>>
>> Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
>> objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
>> judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to
>> practice
>> maueuvers?"
>>
>> Rant over...
>
> Feel free to rant away. I made the observation of encountering 800 fpm
> of sink upon release. My point was that these things occur on occasion
> and if not handled quickly and appropriately it might result in being
> low in the pattern resulting in the crash that occurred. I was
> relatively inexperienced at the time (and by some standards may well
> still be) but recognized that the circumstances might well preclude my
> ability to return to the airport and land safely if I didn't get ahead
> of the situation. Fortunately I received my glider training from two
> old buzzards with thousands of hours of experience and benefited from
> listening to their advice. I usually take a tow to 3000 feet but on
> occasion will release if I encounter exceptional lift. Too often though
> one flys thru lift, turns and can't find said lift again. Often times
> it's a 50/50 chance of turning in the right direction and when wrong it
> requires some searching to find adequate lift to climb. The bottom line
> is that with an extra 1000 feet prior to release one has that extra
> opportunity. I learned to fly gliders in November and December in
> Florida and don't once remember encountering lift while flying with an
> instructor. Most days were cold, wet and dreary with heavy overcast.
> I'm sure that most instructors will release in lift to give their
> student the opportunity to thermal to altitude. I'm just glad that it
> was drilled into me to err on the side of caution and insure that I had
> sufficient altitude to fly a reasonable pattern, maintain adequate
> airspeed and land safely. That's what it's all about.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Commercial Pilot/Airplanes and Gliders
> and still learning
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

[John[_30_]]

I thought this maybe had something to do with RAND Baldwin.

J4

[Dan Marotta]

Nah... It's my typing (and lack of proof reading).

RANT, RANT, RANT...


"John" > wrote in message
...
>I thought this maybe had something to do with RAND Baldwin.
>
> J4

[Dan Marotta]

I turn all the time when I'm towing, both to the right and to the left. If
I know the glider pilot can handle it, I'll turn tighter and keep him in the
thermal. Then there are training flights where the instructor wants me to
fly straight so they can box the wake.

It's the lesser experienced glider pilots who, during their training, always
released at 3,000 ft or at pattern altitude. I think it gets instilled in
them to release at 3,000 and not a foot lower, and there's no thought of air
movement.


"Muttley" > wrote in message
news:7337340.620.1336666327242.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbez18...
>A good tow pilot should be able to exploit the lift
> he is flying through by turning in it. Do not understand
> why tow pilots insist on flying straight all the time.

[Dan Marotta]

What started me ranting are low time glider pilots (licensed) who tell me
they will release at a particular altitude, generally 3,000 feet, and then
do exactly that. I try to keep them in lift but they don't have the
experience to stay with me if I turn too tightly. The problem is that, I
may be going up like gang busters at 2,800 ft and they'll hang on and, at
3,000 ft, when I'm in sink and turning back towards the lift, they release
in the sink rather than wait another minute.

I was hoping to spark a discussion and it appears that I've done just that.


"T" > wrote in message
...
On May 10, 7:34 am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
> from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow in
> 800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.
>
> It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll
> take
> a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the pilot
> will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink
> and hit the magic 3,000' and release!
>
> I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
> operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -
> even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.
>
> Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
> objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
> judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice
> maueuvers?"
>
> Rant over...

Hopefully if you were in sink, you were attempting to turn back to the
lift when the glider released?
Many times the instructor will want straight tows with shallow turns
to accomplish training, slack line, box wake etc. and then the tow
pilot should be free to return to a known lift area.

You did not say if this was an instructional flight, solo student or
rated pilot.
I've had pilots tell me.. straight out.. into the wind. They get off
when they are ready. It is a currency flight for them, not interested
in soaring.

At the end of the day... it's still the customers dollars..

T

[Dan Marotta]

You missed the point entirely, Ray.


"rlovinggood" > wrote in message
news:7768138.164.1336763933565.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynff7...
At contests that I attend, we have pre-paid for 2,000' agl tows. Why get
off any lower? There's a chance of getting off lower and missing the
thermal, then having to work like crazy to get back up to release height,
all before the gate has opened. I don't want to have to work before the
gate opens; I just want to relax a little and save my concentration to spot
the other gliders that are out there. They are marking thermals, so there
isn't a need to pull the release below the 2,000' agl mark.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Dan Marotta]

It's a good challenge and I really try, but starting at 6,200' MSL (8,500'
density altitude), it's a good struggle for a normally aspirated tug.

And, still, the point is about releasing in sink just because you're at a
preplanned altitude. Was that point not clear?


"Ventus2NZ" > wrote in message
...
>I am a tow pilot and fly competitions.
>
> As a tow pilot the challenge is to plan your flight path to drop the
> glider in lift at their release altitude.

[rlovinggood]

On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 10:58:30 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You missed the point entirely, Ray.
>
>
That's my standard operating procedure...

Ray

[Ramy]

On Friday, May 11, 2012 12:18:53 PM UTC-7, rlovinggood wrote:
> At contests that I attend, we have pre-paid for 2,000' agl tows. Why get off any lower? There's a chance of getting off lower and missing the thermal, then having to work like crazy to get back up to release height, all before the gate has opened. I don't want to have to work before the gate opens; I just want to relax a little and save my concentration to spot the other gliders that are out there. They are marking thermals, so there isn't a need to pull the release below the 2,000' agl mark.
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

1500' agl in lift is much better place to release than 2000' agl in sink...

Ramy