The wrong signals to send to young visitors.

[Larry Dighera]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html


Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit

By Jacqueline Trescott
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01


Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
logos from a historic aerobatics plane.

In a letter sent this week to Smithsonian Secretary Lawrence M. Small,
the congressmen said the Loudenslager Stephens Akro Laser 200, which
won several U.S. aerobatics titles as well as the 1980 World Aerobatic
Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
wrong signals to send to young visitors.

"The display of the plane with the Bud Light logos would needlessly
commercialize the plane's exhibition while marginalizing its true
historical significance. The logos are nothing more than an
advertisement that would constitute an implicit endorsement of Bud
Light by the Smithsonian Institution," wrote the members of Congress.

"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
visitors who will be under the legal drinking age. As you may know,
alcohol is the leading drug problem among American youth. . . .

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum

So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
kids that Nazism is cool?




--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?"
- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:06:12 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote in Message-Id: >:

>In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
>>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
>>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
>
>So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
>kids that Nazism is cool?

History is appropriate for a museum; marketing messages are not.


--

The true Axis Of Evil in America is our genious at marketing
coupled with the stupidity of our people. -- Bill Maher

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
>On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:06:12 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
>Tomblin) wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
>>>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
>>>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
>>
>>So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
>>kids that Nazism is cool?
>
>History is appropriate for a museum; marketing messages are not.

The history of that plane is that it was painted with Bud Lite logos when
it was making history. Remove them, and you're removing history. Might
as well remove the name "Vin Fiz" from the plane that flew across the
country.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"It's 106 light-years to Chicago, we've got a full chamber of anti-matter,
a half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing visors."
"Engage."

[Lynn Melrose]

x-no-archive: yes
Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:06:12 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
> Tomblin) wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
> >In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
> >>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> >>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> >
> >So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
> >kids that Nazism is cool?
>
> History is appropriate for a museum; marketing messages are not.

By your reasoning, should the Smithsonian Institution's Museum of American
History remove its copious displays of marketing messages? History
includes marketing messages.

[Chuck]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> By Jacqueline Trescott
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01
>
>
> Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
> museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
> logos from a historic aerobatics plane.
>

<snip>

Get real!!!

If the "Bud Light" markings were on the plane when it made history, they
should stay! If they put the "Bud Light" markings on the plane AFTER it made
history, pull 'em off.

[Tony Cox]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
> "The display of the plane with the Bud Light logos would needlessly
> commercialize the plane's exhibition while marginalizing its true
> historical significance. The logos are nothing more than an
> advertisement that would constitute an implicit endorsement of Bud
> Light by the Smithsonian Institution," wrote the members of Congress.
>
> "Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> visitors who will be under the legal drinking age. As you may know,
> alcohol is the leading drug problem among American youth. . . .
>


Bud Light has alcohol in it? Well, fancy that.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Ron Natalie]

"Chuck" > wrote in message link.net...

>
> If the "Bud Light" markings were on the plane when it made history, they
> should stay! If they put the "Bud Light" markings on the plane AFTER it made
> history, pull 'em off.
>
The Smithsonian doesn't change the appearance of it's artifacts (other than to clean
them up). Both Loundenslager's plane and Faucett's balloon capsule bear the logos
they had when used when they were being flown. More congressional grandstanding
and interference. By the way both artifact's have been at the downtown museum for
a couple of years. These particular skoodges couldn't have been bothered to learn
something about aviation when they only had to walk about three blocks from their
office to the main musueum and now they're so concerned about the Udvar-Hazy center
out at Dulles?

Of course, most of the artifacts that were part of air commerce bear some commercial
markings.

They should be more concerned about the museum's selling out to McDonalds for
it's food concession.

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Larry Dighera wrote:
> Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
> Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
> wrong signals to send to young visitors.

Aaah, the good 'ol "Will someone think of the children, please?" gambit.
If the plane had the Bud Light ad when it was making history, it
should retain them.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Montblack]

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
<snips>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit

> In a letter sent this week to Smithsonian Secretary Lawrence M. Small,
> the congressmen said the Loudenslager Stephens Akro Laser 200, which
> won several U.S. aerobatics titles as well as the 1980 World Aerobatic
> Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
> Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
> wrong signals to send to young visitors.


In a follow-up letter, these same [idiots] suggested changing the name
of The Spirit Of St. Louis to Shiny Plane.

Spirit of St. Louis makes it sound as if the museum is supporting the
idea that other cities might have *less* spirit. This sends the wrong
signal to young museum visitors - that the Smithsonian endorses the idea
of one city having more spirit than another.

More historic cleansing is expected soon - The Columbus exhibit will
feature references to The Nina, The Pinta, and that 3rd big, slow,
ship. The museum does not want to send the wrong message to the youth of
America, that it supports, or condones, religious names in their
exhibits.

--
Montblack

[Bob Fry]

(Paul Tomblin) writes:

> In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
> >On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:06:12 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
> >Tomblin) wrote in Message-Id: >:
> >>In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
> >>>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> >>>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> >>
> >>So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
> >>kids that Nazism is cool?
> >
> >History is appropriate for a museum; marketing messages are not.
>
> The history of that plane is that it was painted with Bud Lite logos when
> it was making history. Remove them, and you're removing history. Might
> as well remove the name "Vin Fiz" from the plane that flew across the
> country.

Wonder what they would say if Pushy Galore ended up in a museum?

[Bob Gardner]

Darn tootin'. Make the kids stay home and watch sports on TV...that will
keep them away from beer ads.

Bob Gardner

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> By Jacqueline Trescott
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01
>
>
> Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
> museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
> logos from a historic aerobatics plane.
>
> In a letter sent this week to Smithsonian Secretary Lawrence M. Small,
> the congressmen said the Loudenslager Stephens Akro Laser 200, which
> won several U.S. aerobatics titles as well as the 1980 World Aerobatic
> Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
> Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
> wrong signals to send to young visitors.
>
> "The display of the plane with the Bud Light logos would needlessly
> commercialize the plane's exhibition while marginalizing its true
> historical significance. The logos are nothing more than an
> advertisement that would constitute an implicit endorsement of Bud
> Light by the Smithsonian Institution," wrote the members of Congress.
>
> "Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> visitors who will be under the legal drinking age. As you may know,
> alcohol is the leading drug problem among American youth. . . .
>
>
>

[Cub Driver]

>>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
>>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
>
>So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
>kids that Nazism is cool?

This is a significant point. Still, one could argue that the swastika
isn't a commercial advertisement.

I wonder: does NASM (Pensacola, Wright-Patt, whatever) show tits & ass
in its WWII bomber nose art?

Do they allow such poetry as Slap the Jap?

And I wonder: how do German air museums handle this little problem of
the swastika or hakenkruez? Nazi symbols carry more baggage in that
country than they do in the U.S. For example, the Bodenweiler(?) March
is banned in Germany but not in the U.S.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Cub Driver > said:
>And I wonder: how do German air museums handle this little problem of
>the swastika or hakenkruez? Nazi symbols carry more baggage in that
>country than they do in the U.S. For example, the Bodenweiler(?) March
>is banned in Germany but not in the U.S.

German air museums paint out the swastika because it's illegal to display
it in public. Or at least they did before reunification - I'm not sure if
it's changed.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a
battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
- Calvin discovers Usenet

[g n p]

You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> By Jacqueline Trescott
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01

[Anonymous]

Bob Fry wrote:

> Pushy Galore

Hmmm... that's not the name I remember from James Bond...

--
Peter










----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[Bob Fry]

Anonymous <Nobody> writes:

> Bob Fry wrote:
>
> > Pushy Galore
>
> Hmmm... that's not the name I remember from James Bond...

"Pushy Galore is a purpose-built experimental for time-to-climb
competitions. It is the holder of several records."

WARNING: The following airplane photo contains MAREKETING TRADEMARKS.
Children under 18 not allowed--adults only!

http://www.russellw.com/museums/oshkosh/photo_enlargement.asp?PicID=14

[vincent p. norris]

>..... they said the Bud Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
>> wrong signals to send to young visitors.

Doesn't the NASM sell alcoholic beverages in the cafeteria? Doesn't
that corrupt children?
>
>In a follow-up letter, these same [idiots] suggested changing the name
>of The Spirit Of St. Louis to Shiny Plane.

I always assumed that the "Spirit" of St. Louis referred to some kind
of booze distilled in that town.

vince norris

[Brian Burger]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, g n p wrote:

> You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a symptom of mistaking Bud Light for actual beer, I'm afraid. :)

Even by the usual standards of grandstanding idiot political
creatures, this is a new standard of silliness...

Brian.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "H.J." > said:
>Wrong Larry.
>Those logos are authentic and accurate historical markings. If your kid cant
>handle the concept, keep him the hell out of the museum.

And restaurants, sports venues, etc. Don't let him watch TV or read
magazines, either. Oh, and the newspapers are full of accurate depictions
of reality, some of which might involve beer.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
- Donald Knuth

[H.J.]

Why can't an adult just say: "Those are 'beeer' logos on that wing, son -
adults drink it sometimes."



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> By Jacqueline Trescott
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01
>
>
> Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
> museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
> logos from a historic aerobatics plane.
>
> In a letter sent this week to Smithsonian Secretary Lawrence M. Small,
> the congressmen said the Loudenslager Stephens Akro Laser 200, which
> won several U.S. aerobatics titles as well as the 1980 World Aerobatic
> Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
> Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
> wrong signals to send to young visitors.
>
> "The display of the plane with the Bud Light logos would needlessly
> commercialize the plane's exhibition while marginalizing its true
> historical significance. The logos are nothing more than an
> advertisement that would constitute an implicit endorsement of Bud
> Light by the Smithsonian Institution," wrote the members of Congress.
>
> "Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> visitors who will be under the legal drinking age. As you may know,
> alcohol is the leading drug problem among American youth. . . .
>
>
>

[H.J.]

Wrong Larry.
Those logos are authentic and accurate historical markings. If your kid cant
handle the concept, keep him the hell out of the museum.


"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:06:12 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
> Tomblin) wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
> >In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
> >>"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> >>misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> >
> >So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
> >kids that Nazism is cool?
>
> History is appropriate for a museum; marketing messages are not.
>
>
> --
>
> The true Axis Of Evil in America is our genious at marketing
> coupled with the stupidity of our people. -- Bill Maher

[Morgans]

"g n p" > wrote in message
...
> You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>

It's 'cause our gas is sooooo much cheaper than yours! ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "g n p" > said:
>You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And after you drink a Bud Lite, you'll know why they're full of gas.
Over-carbonated, under-flavoured freezing cold **** water.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I tried staying in during a fire alarm some years ago. Unfortunately the
fire warden wouldn't accept 'A real hacker goes down with his newsfeed'
as an excuse. -- Peter Gutman

[H.J.]

Who cares about a bunch of freakin Germans. They were cold-blooded murderers
in WWII - fully documented. They made the swastika illegal to display AFTER
we kicked them to hell. It would only be a meaningful gesture if they had
made the swastika illegal back in 1937. Once hitler committed suicide and
the US and Russia owned germany, it didnt matter if the swastikas were
illegal to display or not since it was the symbol of a cowardly and toppled
organization. They should still use it as the symbol on their flag to remind
them of what *******s they were.



"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Cub Driver > said:
> >And I wonder: how do German air museums handle this little problem of
> >the swastika or hakenkruez? Nazi symbols carry more baggage in that
> >country than they do in the U.S. For example, the Bodenweiler(?) March
> >is banned in Germany but not in the U.S.
>
> German air museums paint out the swastika because it's illegal to display
> it in public. Or at least they did before reunification - I'm not sure if
> it's changed.
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction
into a
> battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
> - Calvin discovers Usenet

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:23:44 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>And I wonder: how do German air museums handle this little problem of
>the swastika or hakenkruez? Nazi symbols carry more baggage in that
>country than they do in the U.S. For example, the Bodenweiler(?) March
>is banned in Germany but not in the U.S.

In the Airship museum at Friedrichshafen, where Graf von Zeppelin
tested his airships, they just blot out the Nazi markings whereever
they're found.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[Earl Grieda]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> By Jacqueline Trescott
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01
>
>
> Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
> museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
> logos from a historic aerobatics plane.
>

Are these the same yahoos who, in an insanely patriotic (or just insane)
moment, changed the names of French Fries to Freedom Fries?

Earl G

[Jim Weir]

When we did the engine instrumentation warning circuits for Voyager, we
nicknamed it "Voyager Instrumentation Official Little Engine Thingey". (Read
"VIOLET"). When the red light came on and the fit hit the shan, That was OUR
light.


We put VIOLET on the instrument. It is VIOLET in the Smithsonian and in the
mockup at EAA.


HOWEVER...

Dick asked us to do a tank timer based on a West Bend kitchen egg timer. We did
that and called it Tank Interval Timer To Insure Engine Success (TITTIES)

The Smithsonian has our original TITTIES timer hanging with the airplane.

The EAA's mockup didn't have the cojnones to put "titties";' they blurred the
word on the display.

Talk about no guts at all...

Jim


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Javier Henderson]

Larry Dighera > writes:

> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
>
>
> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> By Jacqueline Trescott
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01
>
>
> Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
> museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
> logos from a historic aerobatics plane.
>
> In a letter sent this week to Smithsonian Secretary Lawrence M. Small,
> the congressmen said the Loudenslager Stephens Akro Laser 200, which
> won several U.S. aerobatics titles as well as the 1980 World Aerobatic
> Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
> Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
> wrong signals to send to young visitors.
>
> "The display of the plane with the Bud Light logos would needlessly
> commercialize the plane's exhibition while marginalizing its true
> historical significance. The logos are nothing more than an
> advertisement that would constitute an implicit endorsement of Bud
> Light by the Smithsonian Institution," wrote the members of Congress.
>
> "Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
> visitors who will be under the legal drinking age. As you may know,
> alcohol is the leading drug problem among American youth. . . .

This is a joke, right?

You are joking, right? You made that clipping up, right?

Right? Yeah, this is a joke. I know it. It must be. It can't not be.

-jav

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "g n p" > said:
>>You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> And after you drink a Bud Lite, you'll know why they're full of gas.
> Over-carbonated, under-flavoured freezing cold **** water.

We don't even call it "beer" here, it comes under the term "lager"
which is thought of as a completely different kind of beverage to beer.

A Bushy's advertisment in one of their pubs sums it up:

What you worried about, lager boy?
Frightened you'll taste something?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[g n p]

Yup, your gallon to our liter.......
Rats.........


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "g n p" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> >
>
> It's 'cause our gas is sooooo much cheaper than yours! ;-)
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:39:33 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin wrote:

>German air museums paint out the swastika because it's illegal to display
>it in public. Or at least they did before reunification - I'm not sure if
>it's changed.

the reunification changed nothing in this respect.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Mackfly]

>From: Larry Dighera

>Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit

Oh sob, sob, someone is less than PC--What a bunch of wimps we are producing
in this country. I will say "sh_t" if I find it on my upper lip and PC be
damned!
old time mac

[H.J.]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 19:58:14 -0700, "H.J." >
> wrote:
>
> >They should still use it as the symbol on their flag to remind
> >them of what *******s they were.
>
> !!
>
> Virtually none of those people are alive today to be reminded, and
> their children are taught none of it, anyway.
>
> Rob
>

Wrong.
Millions of both victims and perpetrators are still alive. I have seen
current interviews of German soldiers and citizens who were directly
involved in horrible acts who have no remorse whatsoever. They still live
good lives while their victims died eons ago. I'm not talking about one or
two ringleaders hiding out in argentina, I'm talking about throngs of 'men'
who still live in Germany enjoying life's good things who performed inhumane
and cruel acts of all types..

There are still rape victims alive today. There are still orphans, amputees,
and millions of other victims alive today.

I know, this is all off topic... keep the beer logo anyway.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:04:55 -0700, H.J. wrote:

>Millions of both victims and perpetrators are still alive. I have seen
>current interviews of German soldiers and citizens who were directly
>involved in horrible acts who have no remorse whatsoever.

wow, -you_ sure are the guy who throws the first stone.

>I know, this is all off topic... keep the beer logo anyway.

Please show some respect to Darwin and prove he's right. Thank you.

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[H.J.]

NO, these are the guys who insanely tried to hide the Enola Gay because it
dropped a - gulp - atomic bomb.

What's insane about Freedom fries???



"Earl Grieda" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59369-2003Nov18.html
> >
> >
> > Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
> >
> > By Jacqueline Trescott
> > Washington Post Staff Writer
> > Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page C01
> >
> >
> > Just weeks before the opening of the Smithsonian's new aviation
> > museum, 20 House members have asked the Smithsonian to remove beer
> > logos from a historic aerobatics plane.
> >
>
> Are these the same yahoos who, in an insanely patriotic (or just insane)
> moment, changed the names of French Fries to Freedom Fries?
>
> Earl G
>
>

[Dave S]

Amen

Dave

Dylan Smith wrote:

> In article >, Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>>Championship, deserved to be in the museum. However, they said the Bud
>>Light emblems were an advertisement and an inducement to drink -- the
>>wrong signals to send to young visitors.
>
>
> Aaah, the good 'ol "Will someone think of the children, please?" gambit.
> If the plane had the Bud Light ad when it was making history, it
> should retain them.
>

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Robert Perkins at
wrote on 11/22/03 7:44 PM:

> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:23:44 -0500, Cub Driver
> > wrote:
>
>> And I wonder: how do German air museums handle this little problem of
>> the swastika or hakenkruez? Nazi symbols carry more baggage in that
>> country than they do in the U.S. For example, the Bodenweiler(?) March
>> is banned in Germany but not in the U.S.
>
> In the Airship museum at Friedrichshafen, where Graf von Zeppelin
> tested his airships, they just blot out the Nazi markings whereever
> they're found.
>
> Rob

It's not that I miss the Swastika or anything, but I think it's possible to
take this sort of thing too far. The other day I saw a local high school
production of "The Diary of Anne Frank". At the end, when the Nazi SS men
stormed in and took everyone away, I noticed an interesting thing--their
uniforms were accurate in every particular except that they bore no
Swastikas.

So let me get this straight--you put on a play about the Holocaust, you
refer to Hitler and the Nazis by name at least a dozen times, but showing a
Swastika is too sensitive?

[John T]

"Mackfly" > wrote in message

>
> I will say "sh_t" if I find it on my upper lip and PC be damned!

You'll say what? :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
____________________

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Mackfly at
wrote on 11/23/03 8:48 AM:

>> From: Larry Dighera
>
>> Legislators Protest Beer Logos on Museum Exhibit
>
> Oh sob, sob, someone is less than PC--What a bunch of wimps we are producing
> in this country. I will say "sh_t"

Speaking of PC wimps, what's wrong with simply typing "****"?

[Steve DeMoss]

"g n p" > wrote in message
...
> You Americans are a gas......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, after I've consumed a few Bud Lights, I *do* get rather gaseous .
.. . but I would never demonstrate this in a museum, in order to protect the
children. (Didn't someone say that there's a McDonald's in the museum? Come
to think of it, eating at McDonald's produces the same effect. I guess I'd
better not visit the museum at all!)

Seriously, this is typical political grandstanding as another poster pointed
out. As such, it represents yet another reason not to take much in the news
too seriously these days. The logo should stay.

SD

[Cub Driver]

>So let me get this straight--you put on a play about the Holocaust, you
>refer to Hitler and the Nazis by name at least a dozen times, but showing a
>Swastika is too sensitive?

That's not the logic of banning the swastika and other Nazi symbols.
Nobody worries that they'll *upset* people. Quite the contrary! When
these laws were passed in the 1950s, they were intended to head off a
resurgence of the Nazi party and mentality.

If in 1958 (I happened to be living in Frankfurt then) a gang of
former Hitler Jugend had goose-stepped down the street to the
Bodenweiler? March, wearing swastika armbands, the police could and
would have arrested them on two felony charges. There was no problem
about proving intent, party membership, whatever. They'd broken two
laws, and that was an end to it.

Today the Hitler Jugend are in their seventies and no threat to
anyone. But it would be a brave legislator who voted to repeal those
laws.

(Lessee, how can I bring this back on topic? Oh yes, I know! There was
a former Hitler Jugend working for us in Frankfurt as a motorcycle
messenger. He said he was assigned to an anti-aircraft gun outside
Frankfurt. When the American planes came over, he said the battery
commander instructed them: "If you don't shoot at the Amis, boys, they
won't shoot at you!")


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Deep Darr]

Swastika is used by many cultures and religions in the world. It has
been used by Hindus and Buddhists way before the Nazis adopted it.

It is a deeply revered symbol of progress & continuity of life.
Associating it with evil is only a sign of ignorance.

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message >...
> In a previous article, Larry Dighera > said:
> >"Having a historic plane covered in gratuitous beer advertising sends
> >misleading and dangerous messages to the millions of annual museum
>
> So, do all those World War II German planes with swastikas on them tell
> kids that Nazism is cool?

[John T]

"Deep Darr" > wrote in message
om
>
> Swastika is used by many cultures and religions in the world. It has
> been used by Hindus and Buddhists way before the Nazis adopted it.

Even Native Americans...

> It is a deeply revered symbol of progress & continuity of life.
> Associating it with evil is only a sign of ignorance.

True. It's a shame that such symbols are perverted by those adopting them
for their own ends, but we have to live with the fact that "perception is
reality" and most people "perceive" the swastika as a symbol of evil. There
are other very visible examples of this...misperception.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "John T" > said:
>"Deep Darr" > wrote in message
om
>> It is a deeply revered symbol of progress & continuity of life.
>> Associating it with evil is only a sign of ignorance.
>
>True. It's a shame that such symbols are perverted by those adopting them
>for their own ends, but we have to live with the fact that "perception is
>reality" and most people "perceive" the swastika as a symbol of evil. There
>are other very visible examples of this...misperception.

It would be pretty god damned stupid to argue that a swastika on a World
War II German plane was a "deeply revered symbol of progress & continuity
of life" - iin that context it was a symbol of Naziism, and nothing more.
Since I was referring to their use on German planes, I don't see how this
could possibly be "misperception".


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
QUOTE OF THE DAY:

`

[John T]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message

>
> It would be pretty god damned stupid to argue that a swastika on a
> World
> War II German plane was a "deeply revered symbol of progress &
> continuity
> of life" -

I guess it's a good thing I wasn't making that argument.

> iin that context it was a symbol of Naziism, and nothing
> more. Since I was referring to their use on German planes, I don't
> see how this could possibly be "misperception".

Since I wasn't referring to you, I don't see how the misperception I spoke
of was yours. :)

Wasn't the swastika a symbol of the state building the aircraft (just like
the white star on blue field for US planes or the "bullseye" for British
planes)? Does your argument mean that the "circled star" is a symbol of
republicanism?

As for markings on historic aircraft, my opinion is the aircraft should be
displayed as nearly as possible to how they appeared at the time they
achieved historic status. That includes symbols currently deemed offensive
and even advertising logos.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Deep Darr]

I agree with you John, except the "most" part in your email. If you
meant most in the sense of who is talking, may be you are correct, but
in the sense of majority (given the Hindu and Buddhist population
around the world "most" people perceive the Swastika as good.

The absence of proselytism in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and other
variants makes the followers keep their affairs to themselves. This
has the undesired side effect that when a part of the world starts to
see their symbol as evil, they do not step up to drive the ignorance
away.

Sad.
Deep

"John T" > wrote in message m>...
> "Deep Darr" > wrote in message
> om
> >
> > Swastika is used by many cultures and religions in the world. It has
> > been used by Hindus and Buddhists way before the Nazis adopted it.
>
> Even Native Americans...
>
> > It is a deeply revered symbol of progress & continuity of life.
> > Associating it with evil is only a sign of ignorance.
>
> True. It's a shame that such symbols are perverted by those adopting them
> for their own ends, but we have to live with the fact that "perception is
> reality" and most people "perceive" the swastika as a symbol of evil. There
> are other very visible examples of this...misperception.

[John T]

"Deep Darr" > wrote in message
om
>
> I agree with you John, except the "most" part in your email. If you
> meant most in the sense of who is talking, may be you are correct, but
> in the sense of majority (given the Hindu and Buddhist population
> around the world "most" people perceive the Swastika as good.

Good catch. I was using the term (admittedly narrowly) in reference to
Americans and Europeans - most of whom seem to link the swastika with
nothing but Nazi Germany.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
____________________

[Robert Perkins]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:37:26 GMT, "John T" > wrote:

>Good catch. I was using the term (admittedly narrowly) in reference to
>Americans and Europeans - most of whom seem to link the swastika with
>nothing but Nazi Germany.

The Nazi context is the only context I'd seen the swastika in for the
first 25 years of my life. If there are other contexts, they're not
widely known in the U.S.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

[K. Ari Krupnikov]

"H.J." > writes:

> Wrong Larry.
> Those logos are authentic and accurate historical markings. If your kid cant
> handle the concept, keep him the hell out of the museum.

It's not the *kid* who can't handle the concept.

Ari.

Incidentally, some countries do prohibit Swastikas -- Germany, for
example. Ever bought a German-made plastic scale aircraft kit? No
Swastikas on the decal sheet, historic accuracy or not. Hasegawa, a
Japanese company, used to print Swastika decals in two separate
pieces, split down the diagonal -- if you wanted the historic
accuracy, you put it back together again, if you didn't, you didn't
have to look at the symbol.

My German friends who have been to the US are genuinely surprised that
it is legal to print Swastikas here and how often one sees them.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

[Cub Driver]

>It is a deeply revered symbol of progress & continuity of life.
>Associating it with evil is only a sign of ignorance.

Your post is a sign of ignorance. Something like thirty million people
died because Germany followed the swastika. A fair number of them were
Indians.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Wasn't the swastika a symbol of the state building the aircraf

No, it was the symbol of the NSDP, the Nazi party. The state symbol
was the teutonic cross. Indeed, if you look at an authentic German
warplane of the era, you will notice that the swastika is fairly
unimportant, as compared to the cross, and sometimes is missing
altogether.

Interestingly, the hakristi -- a blue bent-leg cross -- was the symbol
of the Finnish air force, and shows much more prominently on Finnish
aircraft. If Pensacola ever succeeds in acquiring the Brewster Buffalo
recovered several years ago from Russia --
www.warbirdforum.com/372.htm -- there will presumably be a blue
"swastika" on display at the naval air museum.

That the symbol was used (sometimes facing to the left) by Finland,
Indians, Native Americans, and the publishers of Rudyard Kipling's
books doesn't alter in the slightest that for anyone alive in the
mid-twentieth century it is first of all the mark of an insane,
murderous cult that ruled Germany for twelve years and led the world
into the greatest man-made calamity in all of history.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[John T]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message

>
> Your post is a sign of ignorance. Something like thirty million people
> died because Germany followed the swastika. A fair number of them were
> Indians.

Picking nits: They didn't "follow the swastika". They followed Hitler who
used the symbol. There's a difference.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Deep Darr]

Thanks for your post, Robert. This is exactly the point I was making
-The narrow-minded and shallow thinking of the European culture.

For just this example, the Nazis adopted the Swastika in the 20th
century while it has been a symbol of "good," not bad, for at least 3
millennia on this planet.

For the inquisitive minds, just do a search on "Swastika" on google
and you'll find more depth than the street knowledge of "bad stuff".
You'll still be just scratching the surface of the good heritage of
old civilization that gave the world a lot of invaluable things like
meditation, yoga and more.

Peace,
Deep.



Robert Perkins > wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:37:26 GMT, "John T" > wrote:
>
> >Good catch. I was using the term (admittedly narrowly) in reference to
> >Americans and Europeans - most of whom seem to link the swastika with
> >nothing but Nazi Germany.
>
> The Nazi context is the only context I'd seen the swastika in for the
> first 25 years of my life. If there are other contexts, they're not
> widely known in the U.S.
>
> Rob

[Deep Darr]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
>
> Your post is a sign of ignorance. Something like thirty million people
> died because Germany followed the swastika. A fair number of them were
> Indians.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford


Dan,

I knew that someone will include this in their post. This is not the
point I was making. My wife is Jewish and I know well about Holocaust.

The point I was making is that if an evil organization adopted a
symbol a 100 years ago, and that the symbol had been representing good
for millennia before that, then representing only the evil association
of the symbol is ignorance at best.

It is evident from the common observation (as another poster testified
as well) that people do not know about any other association but the
100 year old mentioned above. Do you see the problem?

I think I made my point clear in the previous post and in the above
paragraphs.
It was not my intent to call you or Robert ignorant so please do not
take offence at that.

Peace,
Deep

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:48:00 GMT, "John T" > wrote:

>They didn't "follow the swastika". They followed Hitler who
>used the symbol. There's a difference.

Not much. That difference and a dime would buy you an ice cream cone
in 1945.

Plonk!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>It is evident from the common observation (as another poster testified
>as well) that people do not know about any other association but the
>100 year old mentioned above. Do you see the problem?

No, I don't see the problem. If people do not know about the good
association, then I think you should take it as a given thatfor those
people--the vast majority likely to be posting here--the swastika is a
symbol of evil. It is to me, even though I know perfectly well about
its other uses, and evidently it is to most people, as you have just
indicated.

The Hell's Angels motorcycle gang doesn't fancy swastika tattoes
because it means nice things to Native Americans and some Asian
cultures. They adopt them because it is a symbol of evil.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Deep Darr]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
>
> If people do not know about the good
> association, then I think you should take it as a given thatfor those
> people--the vast majority likely to be posting here--the swastika is a
> symbol of evil. It is to me, even though I know perfectly well about
> its other uses, and evidently it is to most people, as you have just
> indicated.
>
> The Hell's Angels motorcycle gang doesn't fancy swastika tattoes
> because it means nice things to Native Americans and some Asian
> cultures. They adopt them because it is a symbol of evil.

Exactly my point. The "if" in the above post is what I am trying to
highlight. The history is known and if people chose to ignore it (i.e.
"if people do not know about the good association...") then it is
ignorance isn't it? A deliberate ignorance at that.

Let's assume that al-qaeda (sp?) uses a cross (or imagine your
favorite symbol here) in some evil operation as their symbol. Would
you start associating it with evil or would you look at the bigger
picture?

peace,
Deep