Flight Simulator for Real Pilots

[Charles Talleyrand]

Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
their Garmin 430, or what not?

Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
pilots?

[BTIZ]

I have used MS Flight Sim and IFR OnTop programs.. not so much for the
"stick and rudder" IFR cross checks.. but I use them to study / practice
difficult IFR approaches, radio set up, turns and headings... etc.. I set it
up and let the autopilot fly the approach, or I command heading changes..
while working the radio stack and HSI/VOR intercept problems..

my set up does not allow me to "log the time" for currency.. but it does
prepare me for the sessions in the local flight school FRASCA 142 IFR
simulator. That way I get more out of the SIM.

BT

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
om...
> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> their Garmin 430, or what not?
>
> Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> pilots?

[Yossarian]

I use it quite a bit to practice emergency stuff. I have flights saved in
my local practice area, and on final to my airport to practice things like
spin recovery, engine failures, and go-arounds. I use it to practice heavy
crosswind takeoffs and landings too.


"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
om...
> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> their Garmin 430, or what not?
>
> Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> pilots?

[Jim]

I'm sure you'll have a lot of responses that list:
Situational awareness
Procedure practice
Practicing Fun and difficult approaches
Advanced radio work with the ability to "pause"
"Next 2 things" practice.

Most all of this type of practice happens in your head and FS is great for
making you think ahead and keeping track of where you are and what needs to
happen next. The flight model of the airplanes isn't as good as some of the
other Sim programs and the "realistic" weather settings cause mostly
"unreal" gyrations so I typically set them to "easy". Other than that, use
it to train your brain rather than to simulate actual flight.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply
"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
om...
> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> their Garmin 430, or what not?
>
> Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> pilots?

[Verbs Under My Gel]

(Charles Talleyrand) wrote in message >...
> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> their Garmin 430, or what not?
>
> Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> pilots?

<snip>

IMHO, X-Place is a _much_ better sim, and has FAA approval for
training toward the ATP cert., FWIW.

[John Harlow]

> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot?

I have been playing with FS2004 lately. I have the yoke and rudder pedals,
and 2 monitors (the one on my left is for my base to final leg ;) and I must
say the realism is incredible. All phases of flying are very, very
realistic to me.

I *highly* recommend checking out the new FS programs if you haven't in
awhile. Have Rod Machado help you through flying lessons. Fly down the
coastline and see the waves lapping against the shore. See and avoid other
traffic. Communicate (well, sorta) with ATC. See what's it's like to fly
in a thunderstorm or heavy snow. Fly with others over the internet. And
try out many, many different types of aircraft. There's more too!

The only downside is having to endure John and Martha King's dry humor! ;)

[Jim]

I agree.
Do you know of a Garmin 430 insert available for it?
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Verbs Under My Gel" > wrote in message
om...
> (Charles Talleyrand) wrote in message
>...
> > Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> > better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> > use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> > their Garmin 430, or what not?
> >
> > Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> > pilots?
>
> <snip>
>
> IMHO, X-Place is a _much_ better sim, and has FAA approval for
> training toward the ATP cert., FWIW.

[[email protected]]

>"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
om...
>> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
>> better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
>> use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
>> their Garmin 430, or what not?
>>
>> Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
>> pilots?
>

I frequently practice using FS2004 and a few days ago renewed my IMC
rating (UK basic IFR). After it was all over I said I had not flown at
al for 2 months so was out of practice. The CFI said 'whatever I was
doing just keep doing it'.

I use it for some VFR practice too but best for IFR procedures.




E-mail (Remove Space after pilot): pilot

[Rod Madsen]

How do you do "spin recoveries"? i.e., how do you get it to spin?

rod
"Yossarian" > wrote in message
t...
> I use it quite a bit to practice emergency stuff. I have flights saved in
> my local practice area, and on final to my airport to practice things like
> spin recovery, engine failures, and go-arounds. I use it to practice
heavy
> crosswind takeoffs and landings too.
>
>
> "Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> > better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> > use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> > their Garmin 430, or what not?
> >
> > Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> > pilots?
>
>

[Rod Madsen]

I has to be supervised by a flight instructor though, doesn't it?

Rod
"Verbs Under My Gel" > wrote in message
om...
> (Charles Talleyrand) wrote in message
>...
> > Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> > better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> > use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> > their Garmin 430, or what not?
> >
> > Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> > pilots?
>
> <snip>
>
> IMHO, X-Place is a _much_ better sim, and has FAA approval for
> training toward the ATP cert., FWIW.
>

[Robert Moore]

(Verbs Under My Gel) wrote

> IMHO, X-Place is a _much_ better sim, and has FAA approval for
> training toward the ATP cert., FWIW.

BUT......Only when used with a Mega-Buck full motion platform
and only when the training is done in a Flight Training Center
by an Authorized Instructor....AND we understand that you are
using the word "sim" to mean a "PCATD", not a "flight simulator".

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[Jay Honeck]

> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot?

Just a data point: The University of Iowa, in conjunction with
Rockwell-Collins, has a full-sized Boeing 737 simulator here in Iowa City.
They are using it to evaluate human reactions and "highway in the sky"
instrument approaches (The kind where you simply fly through boxes all the
way to the runway...)

I flew it a few weeks ago, and the realism was stunning. (And, boy, is a
737 a pig to fly...)

Imagine my surprise to find out that the underlying flight sim was Microsoft
FS 2002. They write their software to work as an "over-lay" on top of the
sim.

According to the director of the team, there is simply nothing better
currently available.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:6Sqwb.290477$HS4.2604909@attbi_s01...
> According to the director of the team, there is simply nothing better
> currently available.

At the price, maybe. Especially if you're mainly talking about visuals.
However, obviously a custom-designed full-motion 737 simulator is "better"
in many other (probably more important) respects. Even within the
under-$500 simulator market (or the under-$100 market, for that matter)
there is considerable debate regarding which simulator is "best".

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> At the price, maybe. Especially if you're mainly talking about visuals.
> However, obviously a custom-designed full-motion 737 simulator is "better"
> in many other (probably more important) respects. Even within the
> under-$500 simulator market (or the under-$100 market, for that matter)
> there is considerable debate regarding which simulator is "best".

Agreed. However, the director of the team (a well-respected Swede who owns
the gorgeous V-tailed Bonanza in the hangar next to ours) apparently decided
FS2002 was his most cost-effective "solution".

All I know is this: With video screens out each "window", working
instrumentation, and an authentic flight deck, the realism is stunning.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Snowbird]

(Charles Talleyrand) wrote in message >...
> Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> their Garmin 430, or what not?

> Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> pilots?

I basically use MSFS to drill procedures and practice instrument
approaches (full approach only, no ATC). Used '98 now 2002 after the
kind gift of someone upgrading to 2004.

I find it helpful. It is useful to set up different wind conditions,
instrument failures etc but it's most useful to me just for drilling
procedures. I use the same mneumonics checklists timer etc as I
do when I fly.

I still can't land MSFS worth a darn. Whatever sensory cues I use
to land, they aren't there in "as real as it gets".

[Yossarian]

I can get the 172 to do pretty good spins by stalling and holding full
rudder.

"Rod Madsen" > wrote in message
. ..
> How do you do "spin recoveries"? i.e., how do you get it to spin?
>
> rod
> "Yossarian" > wrote in message
> t...
> > I use it quite a bit to practice emergency stuff. I have flights saved
in
> > my local practice area, and on final to my airport to practice things
like
> > spin recovery, engine failures, and go-arounds. I use it to practice
> heavy
> > crosswind takeoffs and landings too.
> >
> >
> > "Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> > > better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> > > use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> > > their Garmin 430, or what not?
> > >
> > > Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> > > pilots?
> >
> >
>
>

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:58:14 +0000, Yossarian wrote:

> spin recovery, engine failures, and go-arounds. I use it to practice heavy
> crosswind takeoffs and landings too.

What are you using for controllers? I've got the CH Products Yoke and
rudder and this setup with FS9 is the most unrealistic thing I've ever
seen for crosswind practice.

If you're using the same, what are your settings? I've looked for months
to find something usable and finally gave up on anything approaching
reality, and I'd like to. In other words, what did you do to make the 172
fly like a 172?

[Justin Maas]

> They are using it to evaluate human reactions and "highway in the sky"
> instrument approaches (The kind where you simply fly through boxes all
the
> way to the runway...)


Any interesting findings concerning this?

[Aviv Hod]

> Agreed. However, the director of the team (a well-respected Swede who
owns
> the gorgeous V-tailed Bonanza in the hangar next to ours) apparently
decided
> FS2002 was his most cost-effective "solution".

Jay, Tom is Swiss, not Swedish... He is very well funded, and making quite
a name for himself in his field. That's how he gets to run three separate
sims (at my last count) and fly around the country in his Bonanza on
business. Having Rockwell Collins right there in Cedar Rapids is sweet
because Tom's OPL gets to run and test Rockwell's future highway in the sky
interfaces.

It was fun to be a subject for a study he was running a few months ago. I
had to go through training and do 32 complex approaches, which took five
hours. It was draining, but fun, and I go the satisfaction of having helped
out research on future systems. And a cool OPL (operater performance lab)
patch :-)

More information about his lab:
http://opl.ecn.uiowa.edu/

> All I know is this: With video screens out each "window", working
> instrumentation, and an authentic flight deck, the realism is stunning.

They've done a really great job with it. Tom has a reputation for being a
bit of a slavedriver, but he produces some great work with his students.

-Aviv

[Cub Driver]

>How do you do "spin recoveries"? i.e., how do you get it to spin?

I've spun a Cub and a Great Lakes Trainer. In both, you stall the
aircraft nose-high, then with the first shudder you stomp on the left
rudder pedal.

In the Lakes, you can also stomp on the right pedal. I assume the same
is true of the Cub, but we aren't allowed to spin them. (That first
spin was with a CFI who taught out of his own rule-book.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>I have been playing with FS2004 lately. I have the yoke and rudder pedals,
>and 2 monitors (the one on my left is for my base to final leg ;) and I must
>say the realism is incredible. All phases of flying are very, very
>realistic to me.

That's good to know. (The lefthand monitor -- that's a hoot! Great
idea.)

I tried it once when I was learning to fly. The model for the J-3 was
all but unflyable, and of course I couldn't see anything to either
side, so that was ridiculous. But even the landscape was unreal. It
was full of landmarks I'd never seen, in the form of cell-phone
towers, and the landmarks I actually depended on (Hampton water tower,
North Hampton tennis court) were altogether absent.

(I'm looking to my left and wondering if I could put a monitor there
.....)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Harry Gordon]

I'm glad to here that I am not the only person that can't land worth a grain
of sand on the MSFS :-). In fact, I stopped flying it for that reason. I
think what I am going to do is just use it for VOR training and when I get
to my destination just recycle the flight, not even try to land.

I am still using the 2002 version. My PC won't handle the 2004 version.

Harry
PP-ASEL

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> (Charles Talleyrand) wrote in message
>...
> > Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> > better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> > use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> > their Garmin 430, or what not?
>
> > Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> > pilots?
>
> I basically use MSFS to drill procedures and practice instrument
> approaches (full approach only, no ATC). Used '98 now 2002 after the
> kind gift of someone upgrading to 2004.
>
> I find it helpful. It is useful to set up different wind conditions,
> instrument failures etc but it's most useful to me just for drilling
> procedures. I use the same mneumonics checklists timer etc as I
> do when I fly.
>
> I still can't land MSFS worth a darn. Whatever sensory cues I use
> to land, they aren't there in "as real as it gets".

[Richard Russell]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:18:52 -0600, "Matthew P. Cummings"
> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:58:14 +0000, Yossarian wrote:
>
>> spin recovery, engine failures, and go-arounds. I use it to practice heavy
>> crosswind takeoffs and landings too.
>
>What are you using for controllers? I've got the CH Products Yoke and
>rudder and this setup with FS9 is the most unrealistic thing I've ever
>seen for crosswind practice.
>
>If you're using the same, what are your settings? I've looked for months
>to find something usable and finally gave up on anything approaching
>reality, and I'd like to. In other words, what did you do to make the 172
>fly like a 172?

I don't normally fly the default planes. The best that I've found for
spins and slips is the 172 that is available for download and
www.realairsimulations.com. The download is free.
Rich Russell

[Jim]

control/performance works best to land MSFS. just set the power and trim
the pitch for a nice gradual descent and don't touch it. it will squeek 'em
on.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Harry Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> I'm glad to here that I am not the only person that can't land worth a
grain
> of sand on the MSFS :-). In fact, I stopped flying it for that reason. I
> think what I am going to do is just use it for VOR training and when I get
> to my destination just recycle the flight, not even try to land.
>
> I am still using the 2002 version. My PC won't handle the 2004 version.
>
> Harry
> PP-ASEL
>
> "Snowbird" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Charles Talleyrand) wrote in message
> >...
> > > Does anyone here use Microsoft Flight Simulator to help them become a
> > > better pilot? I already know it can be used for fun, but does anyone
> > > use it to help them on their IFR landings, or to become familiar with
> > > their Garmin 430, or what not?
> >
> > > Basically, anyone have any Microfost Flight Simulator tips for actual
> > > pilots?
> >
> > I basically use MSFS to drill procedures and practice instrument
> > approaches (full approach only, no ATC). Used '98 now 2002 after the
> > kind gift of someone upgrading to 2004.
> >
> > I find it helpful. It is useful to set up different wind conditions,
> > instrument failures etc but it's most useful to me just for drilling
> > procedures. I use the same mneumonics checklists timer etc as I
> > do when I fly.
> >
> > I still can't land MSFS worth a darn. Whatever sensory cues I use
> > to land, they aren't there in "as real as it gets".
>
>

[John Harlow]

> control/performance works best to land MSFS. just set the power and trim
> the pitch for a nice gradual descent and don't touch it. it will squeek
'em
> on.

I'm surprised to hear people have trouble landing in FS. Maybe it's the way
I have things setup, but it seems to be about as easy (or difficult) as in
meatspace. Perhaps the 3ghz computer with hardware video acceleration makes
the difference.

[Harry Gordon]

Perhaps the 3ghz computer with hardware video acceleration makes
> the difference.
>
Yea, fine, go ahead and rub it in. See if I care :-))))).

Harry

[Yossarian]

That is a pretty good 172, thanks. Much less twitchy than the default one.

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:18:52 -0600, "Matthew P. Cummings"
> > wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:58:14 +0000, Yossarian wrote:
> >
> >> spin recovery, engine failures, and go-arounds. I use it to practice
heavy
> >> crosswind takeoffs and landings too.
> >
> >What are you using for controllers? I've got the CH Products Yoke and
> >rudder and this setup with FS9 is the most unrealistic thing I've ever
> >seen for crosswind practice.
> >
> >If you're using the same, what are your settings? I've looked for months
> >to find something usable and finally gave up on anything approaching
> >reality, and I'd like to. In other words, what did you do to make the
172
> >fly like a 172?
>
> I don't normally fly the default planes. The best that I've found for
> spins and slips is the 172 that is available for download and
> www.realairsimulations.com. The download is free.
> Rich Russell
>

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Snowbird wrote:
> I find it helpful. It is useful to set up different wind conditions,
> instrument failures etc but it's most useful to me just for drilling
> procedures. I use the same mneumonics checklists timer etc as I
> do when I fly.
>
> I still can't land MSFS worth a darn. Whatever sensory cues I use
> to land, they aren't there in "as real as it gets".

On the subject of MSFS takeoffs and landings, I did an interesting
experiment a while ago with FS98 and the Cessna 182. My goal was to see
how recoverable total engine failures at 50-100' AGL were, depending on
the type of departure. I believe the results are reasonably reliable
(judging by reading NTSB reports).

In summary, the takeoff and climbout at Vx is almost unrecoverable in a
sudden engine stoppage below about 100 feet - even with a very quick
recovery, you don't have the energy to flare and you smash into the
runway. A quick recovery results in survivable crash forces - a delayed
recovery of the "magic two seconds" that supposedly is the delay that
most people have in reacting to a sudden engine stoppage results in what
I would expect to be a fatal or serious injury crash.

Going off on a tangent, I'm not so sure that the "two seconds reaction
time" is all that accurate for a properly trained pilot - I've had power
failures on takeoff, and my recovery action was instant. I had a launch
failure whilst taking a winch launch recently in a glider. When winch
launching, you are pitched up at about 50 degrees nose up, and any delay
in recovery will result in a stall (the recovery is immediately push the
stick ALL THE WAY forward until you are in an attitude a bit steeper
than normal glide, and wait until the airspeed reaches normal flying
speed, then recover to normal glide attitude). When the cable
backreleased at around 800 feet, I didn't waste *any* time shoving the
stick all the way forward. I've also had cases of a C-85 engine
momentarily stopping altogether at 40' AGL on normal climbout due to a
stuck valve - my recovery action was immediate and I landed on the
remaining runway.
In winch launching gliders, cable failures aren't all that uncommon, and
all the people I've witnessed suffering launch failures have taken
immediate recovery action (good job too, because one I saw recently at a
glider club over in the UK was at an altitude that any delay in recovery
would have resulted in a probable fatal crash).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:13:08 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>In article >, Snowbird wrote:
>> I find it helpful. It is useful to set up different wind conditions,
>> instrument failures etc but it's most useful to me just for drilling
>> procedures. I use the same mneumonics checklists timer etc as I
>> do when I fly.
>>
>> I still can't land MSFS worth a darn. Whatever sensory cues I use
>> to land, they aren't there in "as real as it gets".
>
>On the subject of MSFS takeoffs and landings, I did an interesting
>experiment a while ago with FS98 and the Cessna 182. My goal was to see
>how recoverable total engine failures at 50-100' AGL were, depending on
>the type of departure. I believe the results are reasonably reliable
>(judging by reading NTSB reports).
>
>In summary, the takeoff and climbout at Vx is almost unrecoverable in a
>sudden engine stoppage below about 100 feet - even with a very quick
>recovery, you don't have the energy to flare and you smash into the
>runway. A quick recovery results in survivable crash forces - a delayed
>recovery of the "magic two seconds" that supposedly is the delay that
>most people have in reacting to a sudden engine stoppage results in what
>I would expect to be a fatal or serious injury crash.
>
I'm not sure about 100ft but I have twice done a practice PFL on
take-off with a PA28 from 200ft. Landed and took off again within
6000ft. Only one onboard and real life not FS! The only thing to watch
is lateral drift with a crosswind as the runway moves sideways -:)




E-mail (Remove Space after pilot): pilot

[Dylan Smith]

In article >,
wrote:
> I'm not sure about 100ft but I have twice done a practice PFL on
> take-off with a PA28 from 200ft. Landed and took off again within
> 6000ft. Only one onboard and real life not FS! The only thing to watch
> is lateral drift with a crosswind as the runway moves sideways -:)

At Vx or Vy though? In my flight sim tests, a complete engine stoppage
at 50', climbing out at Vy was easily recoverable with a normal landing.
At Vx though, a crash was the normal outcome.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"