Logging x/c time and definition of landing

[Koopas Ly]

Howdy,

I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.

By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)

Of course, the catch is that:

To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
(except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)


Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
column, regardless of distance?

For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.

What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
you're persuing additional ratings.

Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
that count as a "landing"?

Alex

[rip]

In 20+ years, I've only logged flights over 50 nm (from T.O. to landing)
as cross country. Makes the record keeping easier.

Rip

Koopas Ly wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
>
> By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
> at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
> requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
>
> Of course, the catch is that:
>
> To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
> certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
> (except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
> at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
>
>
> Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
> commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
> landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
> column, regardless of distance?
>
> For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
> have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
> destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
> these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
> such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
>
> What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> you're persuing additional ratings.
>
> Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
> go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
> applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
> that count as a "landing"?
>
> Alex

[Dave S]

If its not 50 miles, then its not XC for the purpose of the ratings that
require XC defined by the distance of 50 miles.. Wether you land or
not makes no difference if its under 50. I would log every flight you
make, so you can use the time to your advantage.

Instead of flying up to Dillinham all the time, why dont you grab a life
jacket and do some island hopping to build up your XC time? I would LOVE
to live back over there in the islands and go flying around there all
the time.

Dave

Koopas Ly wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
>
> By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
> at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
> requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
>
> Of course, the catch is that:
>
> To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
> certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
> (except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
> at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
>
>
> Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
> commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
> landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
> column, regardless of distance?
>
> For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
> have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
> destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
> these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
> such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
>
> What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> you're persuing additional ratings.
>
> Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
> go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
> applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
> that count as a "landing"?
>
> Alex

[Matthew Waugh]

As best I can tell the "any airports a cross-country" is only useful for
qualifying for Part 135 PIC (and I guess Part 121 - never looked). So if you
plan to want to meet the 1200TT, 500XC for Part 135, start tracking.

If you plan to do much flying at all, get an electronic logbook. Insurance
companies, the FAA, employers all want time tracked in different and
byzantine ways and a paper logbook will never keep up, you'll always have to
go back and add up the numbers of hours you have in complex, high
performance aircraft within the past 90, 180 and 2000 days, or high
performance seaplane landings at night.

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Howdy,
>
> I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
>
> By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
> at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
> requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
>
> Of course, the catch is that:
>
> To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
> certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
> (except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
> at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
>
>
> Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
> commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
> landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
> column, regardless of distance?
>
> For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
> have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
> destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
> these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
> such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
>
> What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> you're persuing additional ratings.
>
> Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
> go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
> applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
> that count as a "landing"?
>
> Alex

[BTIZ]

I only log the sojourns to other airports as x-c if they are at least 50nm
from my starting point... I can hit 3 airports on the way to the distant
50nm airport.. and count it all.. if I turn back early,, or never land (T/G)
at the 50nm airport.. it don't count..

that way there are not any extraneous entries to "not add up" when computing
the requirement for additional ratings..

as far as the one wheel touch on a T/G.. I think it would count.. you did
alight one wheel to the ground..

by the same token, can you count a journey to a distant lake bed and landing
there as a cross country? It is not a designated "airport" or "landing area"
by any official governing entity.

yes you can
BT

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Howdy,
>
> I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
>
> By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
> at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
> requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
>
> Of course, the catch is that:
>
> To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
> certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
> (except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
> at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
>
>
> Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
> commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
> landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
> column, regardless of distance?
>
> For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
> have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
> destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
> these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
> such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
>
> What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> you're persuing additional ratings.
>
> Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
> go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
> applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
> that count as a "landing"?
>
> Alex

[BTIZ]

I did not notice the HNL remark before.. there are special considerations
for x-c in the islands.. check that out..

also.. a flight around the island may not count as x-c.. for us "main
landers" its the straight line shot to the distant airport that counts.. not
the zig-zag path we may take to get there.

BT

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Howdy,
>
> I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
>
> By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
> at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
> requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
>
> Of course, the catch is that:
>
> To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
> certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
> (except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
> at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
>
>
> Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
> commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
> landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
> column, regardless of distance?
>
> For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
> have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
> destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
> these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
> such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
>
> What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> you're persuing additional ratings.
>
> Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
> go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
> applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
> that count as a "landing"?
>
> Alex

[EDR]

Let's throw in another wrinkle...
Suppose you take off from the home drome, fly an hour in one direction,
look at something on the ground, turn around, fly back and land at the
home drome.
Your round trip flight has been 240 nm, but you did not land anywhere
else.
Is this a cross country flight?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Koopas Ly wrote:
>
> What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> you're persuing additional ratings.

I log a flight as cross-country only if the destination is at least 50 miles
away.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can be learned
no other way.

[ArtP]

On 24 Nov 2003 18:18:39 -0800, (Koopas Ly)
wrote:


>What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
>you're persuing additional ratings.

Until I got my commercial I only logged cross country for flights with
landings at an airport more than 50 miles from my point of departure.
Now I log any flight to a destination greater than 50 miles whether or
not I land as cross country.

[Peter Duniho]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:eJzwb.6346$ML6.6187@fed1read01...
> I did not notice the HNL remark before.. there are special considerations
> for x-c in the islands.. check that out..

Those are only considerations for the primary ratings. For instrument and
commercial ratings, normal XC regulations apply.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> Your round trip flight has been 240 nm, but you did not land anywhere
> else.
> Is this a cross country flight?

No, not for the purposes being asked about here (i.e. Part 61). A landing
is clearly stipulated in the regulations.

[Peter Duniho]

"ArtP" > wrote in message
...
> Until I got my commercial I only logged cross country for flights with
> landings at an airport more than 50 miles from my point of departure.
> Now I log any flight to a destination greater than 50 miles whether or
> not I land as cross country.

Why the change after you got your Commercial certificate? It's not like
further ratings don't require landings. Not planning on getting any
additional ratings?

[Gerald Sylvester]

What electronic logbook do you recommend? I'm taking my checkride in
a couple of weeks for my PPL and would like to log my time easily from
the get go before I start racking up thousands of hours :)

Gerald



Matthew Waugh wrote:

> As best I can tell the "any airports a cross-country" is only useful for
> qualifying for Part 135 PIC (and I guess Part 121 - never looked). So if you
> plan to want to meet the 1200TT, 500XC for Part 135, start tracking.
>
> If you plan to do much flying at all, get an electronic logbook. Insurance
> companies, the FAA, employers all want time tracked in different and
> byzantine ways and a paper logbook will never keep up, you'll always have to
> go back and add up the numbers of hours you have in complex, high
> performance aircraft within the past 90, 180 and 2000 days, or high
> performance seaplane landings at night.
>
> Mat
>
> --
> Matthew Waugh
> Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
> http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm
>
> "Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Howdy,
>>
>>I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
>>
>>By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
>>at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
>>requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
>>
>>Of course, the catch is that:
>>
>>To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
>>certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
>>(except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
>>at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
>>
>>
>>Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
>>commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
>>landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
>>column, regardless of distance?
>>
>>For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
>>have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
>>destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
>>these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
>>such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
>>
>>What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
>>you're persuing additional ratings.
>>
>>Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
>>go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
>>applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
>>that count as a "landing"?
>>
>>Alex
>
>
>

[ArtP]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:48:26 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:


>Why the change after you got your Commercial certificate? It's not like
>further ratings don't require landings. Not planning on getting any
>additional ratings?

The only other rating that I know of that requires cross country in an
airplane is the ATP and those trips don't require a landing at another
airport.

[Cub Driver]

>should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
>landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
>column, regardless of distance?

To me, the XC entry means that I had to do some navigating. Given that
50 miles is a significant jump in a Cub, and ought to involve
refueling, I am not meticulous about distance or even landing. Good
grief, I know how to land the Cub! If I fly to a airport 50 miles
off, look it over, and decide not to land because I'm behind schedule,
I'll log that as XC. If I fly around Lake Winnipesaukee and land two
airports, neither of them more than 45 miles from home, I'll log that
as XC.

But then I'm not going for any further ratings. The XC is purely for
my own interest and satisfaction. I find that it keeps me traveling,
as opposed to playing around the home field all the time.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Peter Duniho]

"ArtP" > wrote in message
...
> The only other rating that I know of that requires cross country in an
> airplane is the ATP and those trips don't require a landing at another
> airport.

Right. I missed the exception in (iv) when I looked up the definition
before. Still, seems to me if you're going to start logging flights 50NM
but without landings, then you ought to go back and figure out which flights
already exist in your log book that meet the same criteria.

That's just me though. It's hard enough keeping track of all the different
variations of kinds of flight time as it is, without adding an additional
level of complication, IMHO. For me personally, the number of flights I
make 50 NM out but don't land are minimal and 500 hours XC even only for
those flights with a landing is not very far away. I'll reach that
comfortably before I reach 1500 hours. Obviously, for other pilots, the
situation may well be exactly reversed.

One thing that's bugging me: didn't the ATP requirement not have any
distance requirement, but DID have a landing requirement? For some reason,
the current reg looks exactly opposite from what I remember, semantically
speaking.

Pete

[Matthew Waugh]

If you were at some point more than 50NM from your "home drome" then it's a
cross-country flight for the purposes of counting it towards an ATP
certificate.

So it is relevant to 14 CFR Part 61.

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> Let's throw in another wrinkle...
> Suppose you take off from the home drome, fly an hour in one direction,
> look at something on the ground, turn around, fly back and land at the
> home drome.
> Your round trip flight has been 240 nm, but you did not land anywhere
> else.
> Is this a cross country flight?

[Matthew Waugh]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
link.net...
> What electronic logbook do you recommend? I'm taking my checkride in

*I* use Aerolog Pro - but I'd be lieing if I said I'd done an exhaustive
study of the marketplace before settling on that. Lots of people say good
things about Logbook Pro - but as I recall when I tried their demo I didn't
like the interface much (but that may just be me, probably is).

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm

[ArtP]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 03:52:41 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

> Still, seems to me if you're going to start logging flights 50NM
>but without landings, then you ought to go back and figure out which flights
>already exist in your log book that meet the same criteria.

When I got my commercial I had the minimum number of cross country
hours and all of my flights were all designed to count toward the
cross country. I can only remember 1 were I flew more than 50 miles
but turned back because of the weather, so it is not worth the trouble
of keeping a spinate log (I have them logged by date (every cross
country before my commercial had a landing).

When I was younger I used to drive around the beltway for fun (70
miles), now I fly around the Washington ADIZ and restricted areas for
fun (450 nm). That is almost a 4 hour cross country without a
landing.

[Brad Z]

Call me uninspired, but I use Excel as my electronic logbook. It serves as
a back-up to my physical logbook.

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
link.net...
> What electronic logbook do you recommend? I'm taking my checkride in
> a couple of weeks for my PPL and would like to log my time easily from
> the get go before I start racking up thousands of hours :)
>
> Gerald
>
>
>
> Matthew Waugh wrote:
>
> > As best I can tell the "any airports a cross-country" is only useful for
> > qualifying for Part 135 PIC (and I guess Part 121 - never looked). So if
you
> > plan to want to meet the 1200TT, 500XC for Part 135, start tracking.
> >
> > If you plan to do much flying at all, get an electronic logbook.
Insurance
> > companies, the FAA, employers all want time tracked in different and
> > byzantine ways and a paper logbook will never keep up, you'll always
have to
> > go back and add up the numbers of hours you have in complex, high
> > performance aircraft within the past 90, 180 and 2000 days, or high
> > performance seaplane landings at night.
> >
> > Mat
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Waugh
> > Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
> > http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm
> >
> > "Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >>Howdy,
> >>
> >>I was reading a short article on AOPA regarding logging x/c time.
> >>
> >>By definition, cross-country time includes any flight with a landing
> >>at any airport other than the departure airport; there is no distance
> >>requirement. Reference: FAR 61.1(b)(3)
> >>
> >>Of course, the catch is that:
> >>
> >>To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft) for a private
> >>certificate, a commercial certificate, and the instrument rating
> >>(except instrument-helicopter), cross-country time requires a landing
> >>at least 50 nm from the point of departure. FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)
> >>
> >>
> >>Since I will probably go for an instrument rating soon, and then
> >>commercial, should I indeed refrain from logging ALL flights with a
> >>landing at an airport other than the departure airport in the x/c
> >>column, regardless of distance?
> >>
> >>For instance, I can't do touch and go's at my home airport (HNL), and
> >>have to go to a nearby Class D airport to shoot landings. The
> >>destination airport is definitely within 50 nm of HNL. Technically,
> >>these flights count as x/c, even though I've never logged them as
> >>such. Likewise, I've flown to airports only 47 nm away.
> >>
> >>What do you guys/gals do? I guess it would depend on whether or not
> >>you're persuing additional ratings.
> >>
> >>Another question would be: what qualifies as a landing? A touch and
> >>go is a landing, from experience. What about touching one wheel,
> >>applying full power, and climbing away never to be seen again? Would
> >>that count as a "landing"?
> >>
> >>Alex
> >
> >
> >
>

[Todd Pattist]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

>For me personally, the number of flights I
>make 50 NM out but don't land are minimal and 500 hours XC even only for
>those flights with a landing is not very far away. I'll reach that
>comfortably before I reach 1500 hours. Obviously, for other pilots, the
>situation may well be exactly reversed.

As it is for me (reversed , that is). I've got hundreds of
hours more than 50 nm away without a landing. I can think of
two flights totaling over 20 hours and 1400 miles in that
category. It's tough to get back home in a glider if you
land somewhere. Most of the time, when I log XC, it's a
failure.

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
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