Video of using up ALL of the runway on a wet aero tow

[Bruno[_2_]]

This was my first time taking off with a decent amount of water (30
gallons) in my 27B at Cedar Valley, Utah. We normally take off to the
south with a longer runway but the winds from a storm shifted the
winds to the northeast (quartering crosswind). I told the tow pilot to
hold the 182 on the ground to build up as much speed as possible. He
did what I asked! :)

Wasn't even close to being a problem - we had at least 5 feet cleared
over the ditch at the end of the runway. ;) All kidding aside, had
there been an issue of not being able to take off at the end either
one of us could have released the rope causing him to take off and me
to land in the field straight ahead so it wasn't that big of a deal
but is exciting to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsjSt2Mjc4

Thanks for watching and commenting.
Bruno - B4

[T[_2_]]

On Jun 3, 10:21*am, Bruno > wrote:
> This was my first time taking off with a decent amount of water (30
> gallons) in my 27B at Cedar Valley, Utah. We normally take off to the
> south with a longer runway but the winds from a storm shifted the
> winds to the northeast (quartering crosswind). I told the tow pilot to
> hold the 182 on the ground to build up as much speed as possible. *He
> did what I asked! :)
>
> Wasn't even close to being a problem - we had at least 5 feet cleared
> over the ditch at the end of the runway. ;) All kidding aside, had
> there been an issue of not being able to take off at the end either
> one of us could have released the rope causing him to take off and me
> to land in the field straight ahead so it wasn't that big of a deal
> but is exciting to watch.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsjSt2Mjc4
>
> Thanks for watching and commenting.
> Bruno - B4

Good takeoff with no tendency to drop a wing, great wing runner. Any
idea what the airspeed was when the c182 finally broke ground? What
was the tow speed once over the fence?

Noting the water hitting the windshield I thought it may have been
starting to rain, which could mean taking off with a down draft. But
then I saw what looked like water being kicked up off the runway by
the tow?

T

[cfinn]

One thing I see wrong Bruno is asking the tow plane to stay on the
ground as long as possible. It would be better if he had lifted off
and stayed 2 to 3 feet AGL. The tow plane would have accelerated much
faster. No ground resistance from the wheels. Of course, if the tow
plane accelerated faster, you would also. That's from experience in
the tow plane.

Charlie

[Bruno[_2_]]

On Jun 3, 8:05*pm, T > wrote:
> On Jun 3, 10:21*am, Bruno > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This was my first time taking off with a decent amount of water (30
> > gallons) in my 27B at Cedar Valley, Utah. We normally take off to the
> > south with a longer runway but the winds from a storm shifted the
> > winds to the northeast (quartering crosswind). I told the tow pilot to
> > hold the 182 on the ground to build up as much speed as possible. *He
> > did what I asked! :)
>
> > Wasn't even close to being a problem - we had at least 5 feet cleared
> > over the ditch at the end of the runway. ;) All kidding aside, had
> > there been an issue of not being able to take off at the end either
> > one of us could have released the rope causing him to take off and me
> > to land in the field straight ahead so it wasn't that big of a deal
> > but is exciting to watch.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsjSt2Mjc4
>
> > Thanks for watching and commenting.
> > Bruno - B4
>
> Good takeoff with no tendency to drop a wing, great wing runner. Any
> idea what the airspeed was when the c182 finally broke ground? What
> was the tow speed once over the fence?
>
> Noting the water hitting the windshield I thought it may have been
> starting to rain, which could mean taking off with a down draft. But
> then I saw what looked like water being kicked up off the runway by
> the tow?
>
> T

I broke ground at 48 knots and the tow plane broke ground at 62 knots
per my instruments. We were probably 65 knots over the fence.

Yes, it had just rained a little bit and was still sprinkling just a
bit. They were not perfect conditions but was not gusty. When I was
getting the glider ready the wind was stronger down the runway. Once
I was ready for takeoff it had calmed a bit and was more cross. This
made the takeoff roll longer unfortunately than what I thought it
would be. Not happy cutting it so close. Lesson learned.

Thanks for watching,
Bruno - B4

[Bruno[_2_]]

On Jun 3, 8:22*pm, cfinn > wrote:
> One thing I see wrong Bruno is asking the tow plane to stay on the
> ground as long as possible. It would be better if he had lifted off
> and stayed 2 to 3 feet AGL. The tow plane would have accelerated much
> faster. No ground resistance from the wheels. Of course, if the tow
> plane accelerated faster, you would also. That's from experience in
> the tow plane.
>
> Charlie

You know what Charlie - you are absolutely correct! I completely
forgot about hearing that technique in the past. That said, this tow
pilot was pretty green and hasn't towed much so I was really worried
about him ballooning up on takeoff. My good friend TT had that happen
to him at Moriarty and he was barely able to release and make the ship
come to a stop before the end of the runway. 20 seconds later in this
video after I cut it the tow plane slowed to 55 knots indicated for
about 10 seconds and it got pretty scary with the glider shuddering
and feeling like it was about to depart at any second 200 feet above
the ground. Speed is so crucial on a heavy wet aero tow! Thanks for
the advice and we will do that next tow.

Regards,
Bruno - B4

[cfinn]

> You know what Charlie - you are absolutely correct! I completely
> forgot about hearing that technique in the past. *That said, this tow
> pilot was pretty green and hasn't towed much so I was really worried
> about him ballooning up on takeoff. *My good friend TT had that happen
> to him at Moriarty and he was barely able to release and make the ship
> come to a stop before the end of the runway. *20 seconds later in this
> video after I cut it the tow plane slowed to 55 knots indicated for
> about 10 seconds and it got pretty scary with the glider shuddering
> and feeling like it was about to depart at any second 200 feet above
> the ground. *Speed is so crucial on a heavy wet aero tow! *Thanks for
> the advice and we will do that next tow.
>
> Regards,
> Bruno - B4

A few years ago, I was towing a water heavy ship during the region V
contest at Cordelle. I was airborne in about 2,000 feet. I was
indicating around 85 knots, when he finally lifted off about 4,500
feet down a 5,000 runway with tress at the end. Much longer and he
would have been by himself. I wasn't too keen on flying into the trees
at 3 feet AGL! Must say, it can get hot in southern GA, during the
contest months. Last year I was flying my HP. The actual temperature
was 104.

Charlie

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 10:21:17 AM UTC-7, Bruno wrote:
> This was my first time taking off with a decent amount of water (30
> gallons) in my 27B at Cedar Valley, Utah. We normally take off to the
> south with a longer runway but the winds from a storm shifted the
> winds to the northeast (quartering crosswind). I told the tow pilot to
> hold the 182 on the ground to build up as much speed as possible. He
> did what I asked! :)
>
> Wasn't even close to being a problem - we had at least 5 feet cleared
> over the ditch at the end of the runway. ;) All kidding aside, had
> there been an issue of not being able to take off at the end either
> one of us could have released the rope causing him to take off and me
> to land in the field straight ahead so it wasn't that big of a deal
> but is exciting to watch.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsjSt2Mjc4
>
> Thanks for watching and commenting.
> Bruno - B4

Nothing can match the excitement of a fully loaded ASW22 going off the end of the runway at Ely with 5ft clearance on a 95f day.

Followed by the turn over middle of Ely town so low folks could wave up at you as you slosh by.

Cheers

Al

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

> Yes, it had just rained a little bit and was still sprinkling just a
> bit. *They were not perfect conditions but was not gusty. *When I was
> getting the glider ready the wind was stronger down the runway. *Once
> I was ready for takeoff it had calmed a bit and was more cross.

Today's airfoils are less sensitive to rain/bugs than the older
sections. But I would still think long and hard before launching with
raindrops on the wing...especially if it were still sprinkling
rain...especially heavy...especially with what could have been a
marginal towplane...especially with a green towpilot...especially on
what was apparently a shorter, unpaved strip...especially with a
crosswind instead of a headwind...especially on a hot day...especially
if it were my first time carrying a lot of water.

Maybe I'm just getting old and overly cautious. I have plenty of
"there I was at 100 ft. over the trees with the stick in my lap
watching the towplane climbing away from me" stories. I don't need any
more.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Bruno[_2_]]

On Jun 11, 10:34*pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:
> > Yes, it had just rained a little bit and was still sprinkling just a
> > bit. *They were not perfect conditions but was not gusty. *When I was
> > getting the glider ready the wind was stronger down the runway. *Once
> > I was ready for takeoff it had calmed a bit and was more cross.
>
> Today's airfoils are less sensitive to rain/bugs than the older
> sections. But I would still think long and hard before launching with
> raindrops on the wing...especially if it were still sprinkling
> rain...especially heavy...especially with what could have been a
> marginal towplane...especially with a green towpilot...especially on
> what was apparently a shorter, unpaved strip...especially with a
> crosswind instead of a headwind...especially on a hot day...especially
> if it were my first time carrying a lot of water.
>
> Maybe I'm just getting old and overly cautious. I have plenty of
> "there I was at 100 ft. over the trees with the stick in my lap
> watching the towplane climbing away from me" stories. I don't need any
> more.
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"
> U.S.A.

Chip,
I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately I didn't think of all of these
things you pointed out until after the takeoff. Fortunately it worked
out in this instance. I definitely have learned a lot from this one
tow and from the helpful comments, including yours, that have
followed. This is one of the reasons why I love making these videos
showing both good and bad, land outs and successes. Post-flight igc
review, video analysis and 3rd party feedback are all quite helpful
for improving your own skills and safety once you develop a thicker
skin and know that they might not always be flattering. Thanks for
the comments. :)

Bruno - B4

[Mike Oliver]

Bruno,

Great video as usual. I have some hours on in the 27 its a beautiful
glider.

My only comment is that I close the brakes immediately the tug is rolling
and there is no risk of running over the rope and keep my hand very close
to the release in case of a wing drop, especially with water and especially
with a X wind!

Believe me its amazing how fast it can start to go round if the wing goes
down and digs in.

This experience cost me no more than a bit of pride but had i had to move
my hand from brakes to release it might have been different.

Looking forward to the next Vid!

Mike

[Mike Oliver]

Bruno,

Great video as usual. I have some hours on in the 27 its a beautiful
glider.

My only comment is that I close the brakes immediately the tug is rolling
and there is no risk of running over the rope and keep my hand very close
to the release in case of a wing drop, especially with water and especially
with a X wind!

Believe me its amazing how fast it can start to go round if the wing goes
down and digs in.

This experience cost me no more than a bit of pride but had i had to move
my hand from brakes to release it might have been different.

Looking forward to the next Vid!

Mike

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Jun 13, 5:13*am, Mike Oliver >
wrote:
> Bruno,
>
> Great video as usual. I have some hours on in the 27 its a beautiful
> glider.
>
> My only comment is that *I close the brakes immediately the tug is rolling
> and there is no risk of running over the rope and keep my hand very close
> to the release in case of a wing drop, especially with water and especially
> with a X wind!
>
> Believe me its amazing how fast it can start to go round if the wing goes
> down and digs in.
>
> This experience cost me no more than a bit of pride but had i had to move
> my hand from brakes to release it might have been different.
>
> Looking forward to the next Vid!
>
> Mike

Actually I find that on the 27 as with many other gliders, half
airbrake substantially improves aileron authority. So I keep half
brake out until I'm really sure I have aileron control, then close and
lock the brakes, move my hand to flaps and transition from flap 2
(which gives best aileron control) to flap 4 and take off. I know
exactly where the release is and how to get there, of course. And
since your hand is on the airbrake, it is impossible to take off with
brakes open.

Also from experience -- one day I closed the spoiler just a little too
soon, lost aileron control, a wing went down and I got to use that
release in front of a whole contest grid! Good thing it was a big
grass field.

Needless to say, making sure the ballast is sloshed so the wings are
balanced, the upwind wing is held a little low, and the wing runner is
an olympic sprinter helps too. I recently couldn't persuade a wing
runner to hold the upwind wing low with predictable consequences.

John Cochrane

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

Uk Open nationals. Robin Dr400 with a cruise prop + nearly full Nimbos 4t.
Both just off the ground at 3/4 runway when the Robin had a bird stike on
the prop. It got a bit interesting for a few seconds. Well done to both
pilots.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jun 13, 6:31*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> Needless to say, making sure the ballast is sloshed so the wings are
> balanced, the upwind wing is held a little low, and the wing runner is
> an olympic sprinter helps too. I recently couldn't persuade a wing
> runner to hold the upwind wing low with predictable consequences.

John,

Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. With
the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
than have the wing low.

If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
need for balance and a fast run.

What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?

Andy

[Mike the Strike]

Discus 2 requires level wings with partial ballast. A lowered wing just thuds into the ground the moment the wing-runner lets go! The nose hook eliminates all but the worst cross-wind problems.

Mike

[BobW]

On 6/13/2012 12:45 PM, Andy wrote:
> On Jun 13, 6:31 am, John >
> wrote:
>> Needless to say, making sure the ballast is sloshed so the wings are
>> balanced, the upwind wing is held a little low, and the wing runner is
>> an olympic sprinter helps too. I recently couldn't persuade a wing
>> runner to hold the upwind wing low with predictable consequences.
>
> John,
>
> Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
> water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. With
> the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
> than have the wing low.
>
> If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
> the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
> work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
> need for balance and a fast run.
>
> What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?
>
> Andy

Zuni experience, ~48 gallons max (more than I could ever effectively use),
integral tanks with internal baffles, tailwheel, nose hook, negative
flaps...my experience with (any, mostly partial) ballast was inertia was your
friend in every case/situation...hence my vote in that ship was for max
wingtip clearances. In every case, beginning the run with negative flaps, I
obtained aileron control before any wingtip dropped.

I always instructed my wingrunners to level the wings, remove their hands to
*show* me wing weights were really equalized, and give me the longest run they
could without holding back on the tip. (Once the water was equally
distributed, I preferred to have them rest the wing bottom surface on the flat
of their palm, & explicitly said I did NOT want them wrapping their fingers
around the leading edge...simply run/sprint until the tug outsped their best
effort. Obviously, gusty crosswinds dictated some degree of non-level-ness,
but "close enough to level for practical purposes" was always the goal.)

No connecting of rope until the glider was perfectly aligned with the runway.

Elaborating briefly on the "never had any aileron control issues" claim, that
was true even behind a 180 HP Super Cub at 5300' msl from a 4,400' strip. I
*did* swear off any more fully ballasted T.O.'s from the strip behind that tug
after my only fully ballasted takeoff there...non-existent fully-ballasted
PTTT options prior to being able to execute a downwind return, and WAY too
long 'in the crash zone' below return height.

I should note my ship had the original stalky gear, which put a LOT of weight
on the tailwheel (relative to many 15-meter ships), further making the ship
less prone to weathervane in any event.

YMMV,

Bob W.

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

>
> John,
>
> Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
> water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. *With
> the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
> than have the wing low.
>
> If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
> the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
> work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
> need for balance and a fast run.
>
> What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?
>
> Andy

No, I am of the school that puts in exactly the amount of ballast I
want for the day rather than takeoff full and dump. I like to really
know what I have and get the tail tank ballast just right. Dealing
with partially full tanks on a ship with tanks -- baffles -- is not as
much of a problem as it is with bags. Also, there are times when it's
much harder to get off the ground with full water than with half
water.

In 99% of conditions, I agree -- sloshing the tanks so that there is
no pressure is the right thing to do, no matter what the wind. This is
especially true with the most common trouble scenario, high altitude,
hot temperature, contest, weak towplane, cross-downwind but they don't
want to change runways. Hobbs and Tonopah have been memorable. If it's
balanced, you can get past the zone of no control more quickly.

The 1% problem is a really strong crosswind. Then, getting the wing
runner to first slosh and balance, then lower the tip a bit just when
starting the run will help. Lack of aileron authority isn't so much of
a problem, but avoiding a strong wind-driven force in the wrong
direction is. Better to be slightly heavy in the upwind side. Maybe
that just ensures that it's NOT banked in the wrong direction. Mifflin
on a really strong ridge day is an example.

Wing runners often don't realize when wings are level or not --
winglets seem to confuse them, as does a cross-runway slope at the
takeoff point. The difference between gliders with lots of dihedral
(duo) and none (27) confuses them, as they get used to holding the tip
in the same place on their bodies. They won't understand sloshing the
water to get it through the baffles, and the importance of taking off
with no pressure on the wing unless this is explained. And they often
don't understand the importance of running, hard, in a low or downwind
situation with full water. Without pulling or pushing on the tip.
Many get used to what works with no water and headwind at the home
airport, and don't adapt. And it's hard to explain all this, quickly
and politely, on a contest grid.

Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
glider.

John Cochrane

[BobW]

On 6/13/2012 2:18 PM, John Cochrane wrote:

<Snip...>

>
> Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
> towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
> off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
> ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
> inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
> else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
> stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
> trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
> glider.

Bemused Question (from a non-contest pilot):

John's complaint about 'not dialed in' contest tuggies is a recurring theme in
my years of reading contest reports, RAS, engaging in BS sessions, etc.

I've long been puzzled why this should be so. Let's assume everything John
posits above is spot-on.

Where's the breakdown? Failure to communicate to tuggies in pre-contest
briefings? Idiot towpilots? Something(s) else?

I realize all it takes is for one tuggie to make one bad tow for it to become:
a) a life-threatening problem; b) majorly gripeworthy, and c) highly 'O
Beer-thirty' worthy. Item a) by itself would seem sufficient justification for
contest organizations to 'work really hard' to ensure the problem doesn't
happen. Further, it's not as if this is a new situation, after all. The
problem certainly shouldn't be endemic, or untreatable? What am I missing?

Just curious...

Bob W.

P.S. I've never seen this same situation even remotely approach 'an endemic
situation' at beaucoup 'semi-watered' camps I've attended over the years,
where volunteer club tuggies are the norm.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jun 13, 5:58*pm, BobW > wrote:

Please don't change the "Subject" of a thread. It makes the original
thread disappear and can be confusing/irritating to those that
participate by using Gooogle Groups.

thanks

Andy

[Tim Taylor]

On Jun 13, 6:58*pm, BobW > wrote:
> On 6/13/2012 2:18 PM, John Cochrane wrote:
>
> <Snip...>
>
>
>
> > Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
> > towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
> > off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
> > ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
> > inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
> > else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
> > stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
> > trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
> > glider.
>
> Bemused Question (from a non-contest pilot):
>
> John's complaint about 'not dialed in' contest tuggies is a recurring theme in
> my years of reading contest reports, RAS, engaging in BS sessions, etc.
>
> I've long been puzzled why this should be so. Let's assume everything John
> posits above is spot-on.
>
> Where's the breakdown? Failure to communicate to tuggies in pre-contest
> briefings? Idiot towpilots? Something(s) else?
>
> I realize all it takes is for one tuggie to make one bad tow for it to become:
> a) a life-threatening problem; b) majorly gripeworthy, and c) highly 'O
> Beer-thirty' worthy. Item a) by itself would seem sufficient justification for
> contest organizations to 'work really hard' to ensure the problem doesn't
> happen. Further, it's not as if this is a new situation, after all. The
> problem certainly shouldn't be endemic, or untreatable? What am I missing?
>
> Just curious...
>
> Bob W.
>
> P.S. I've never seen this same situation even remotely approach 'an endemic
> situation' at beaucoup 'semi-watered' camps I've attended over the years,
> where volunteer club tuggies are the norm.

Bob,

I think is is mostly a matter of habit with tow pilots. I have had a
few close calls with tow pilots that don't pay attention. When I am
loaded I tell them on the radio and confirm that they know I am full
of water. As Bruno said in one of the origional posts I had a tow
pilot after I told him I was heavy climb to about 50 feet and hold 60
while I sat in the ground and watched the runway being eaten up. I
finally had to release and almost didn't get stopped before the end of
the runway. On the following tow he apologized for not flying faster
for my 30 gallons of water. My response was I had 50 gallons on and
his only response was "oh". More common is for tow pilots that are
used to pulling up in lift to do it with a heavy glider. It is a habit
you can do with light glider, but a loaded glider starts to wallow
like a pig. Very few tow pilots have flown a loaded glider or they
would never fly slow with one.

[Ron Gleason]

On Wednesday, 13 June 2012 14:18:14 UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
> > water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. *With
> > the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
> > than have the wing low.
> >
> > If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
> > the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
> > work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
> > need for balance and a fast run.
> >
> > What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?
> >
> > Andy
>
> No, I am of the school that puts in exactly the amount of ballast I
> want for the day rather than takeoff full and dump. I like to really
> know what I have and get the tail tank ballast just right. Dealing
> with partially full tanks on a ship with tanks -- baffles -- is not as
> much of a problem as it is with bags. Also, there are times when it's
> much harder to get off the ground with full water than with half
> water.
>
> In 99% of conditions, I agree -- sloshing the tanks so that there is
> no pressure is the right thing to do, no matter what the wind. This is
> especially true with the most common trouble scenario, high altitude,
> hot temperature, contest, weak towplane, cross-downwind but they don't
> want to change runways. Hobbs and Tonopah have been memorable. If it's
> balanced, you can get past the zone of no control more quickly.
>
> The 1% problem is a really strong crosswind. Then, getting the wing
> runner to first slosh and balance, then lower the tip a bit just when
> starting the run will help. Lack of aileron authority isn't so much of
> a problem, but avoiding a strong wind-driven force in the wrong
> direction is. Better to be slightly heavy in the upwind side. Maybe
> that just ensures that it's NOT banked in the wrong direction. Mifflin
> on a really strong ridge day is an example.
>
> Wing runners often don't realize when wings are level or not --
> winglets seem to confuse them, as does a cross-runway slope at the
> takeoff point. The difference between gliders with lots of dihedral
> (duo) and none (27) confuses them, as they get used to holding the tip
> in the same place on their bodies. They won't understand sloshing the
> water to get it through the baffles, and the importance of taking off
> with no pressure on the wing unless this is explained. And they often
> don't understand the importance of running, hard, in a low or downwind
> situation with full water. Without pulling or pushing on the tip.
> Many get used to what works with no water and headwind at the home
> airport, and don't adapt. And it's hard to explain all this, quickly
> and politely, on a contest grid.
>
> Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
> towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
> off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
> ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
> inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
> else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
> stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
> trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
> glider.
>
> John Cochrane

Gee John, maybe the travelling band of 'getting rich off the contest pilots' wing runners and tow pilots have not made it to the contests you are flying 8-) I do not disagree with your desires and the requirements you present however most contests are lucky to enough tow planes and scrounge for wing runners.

Maybe you can sit out a round and perform the tasks of educating the 'high paid' help on the ground and show everyone how it is done. Better yet, maybe a written manual for all the volunteers clamoring to assist at contests. That's it, create a badge for ground crew and make sure it is a pre-req.

Ron 'tongue in cheek' Gleason

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

>
> Gee John, maybe the travelling band of 'getting rich off the contest pilots' wing runners and tow pilots have not made it to the contests you are flying 8-) *I do not disagree with your desires and the requirements you present however most contests are lucky to enough tow planes and scrounge for wing runners.
>
> Maybe you can sit out a round and perform the tasks of educating the 'high paid' help on the ground and show everyone how it is done. *Better yet, maybe a written manual for all the volunteers clamoring to assist at contests. *That's it, create a badge for ground crew and make sure it is a pre-req.
>
> Ron 'tongue in cheek' Gleason

You're right, and I wasn't clear enough how much I as a contest pilot
appreciate all the help I get from the dedicated volunteers. Which, in
a sense, contributes to the problem -- I'm not the type to bark orders
at someone who spends the whole day hanging around on a hot airport
for the great privilege of hooking me up, running my wing, or towing
me sometimes more than once.

Still, we do have to get the word out. There is a substantially
different technique needed to run a wing of a full glider in a cross-
downwind on a hot day at a contest than to run the wing of the club
ASK21; there is a different tow technique needed to get the same
glider safely off the ground and in the air than to tow the club
ASK21.

John Cochrane