Where to get Winched?

[Walt Connelly]

Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch endorsement? ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate winch launch? What might the minimum runway length be?

Walt

[Bill D]

On Jun 6, 5:38*am, Walt Connelly
> wrote:
> Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

You can expect to achieve a height of a little less than half the
runway length - more if launching into a headwind. This assumes a
glider with > 30:1 and a modern winch.

You might try contacting the Carolina Soaring Association.

[Chris]

Walt Connelly wrote:

> ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> winch launch? What might the minimum runway length be?

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.
Chris

[Markus Graeber]

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 6:38:19 AM UTC-5, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> endorsement? ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> winch launch? What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

I think the Aussies set the minimum at 1200 meters available for a winch operation, otherwise you need a special permit since safety becomes much more critical in case of a launch failure. I learned in Germany on an 800 m strip but we had fields available to the side past the end of the grass runway for straight ahead emergency landings past the winch. With the steel cable we used you more or less had one quick try at a thermal otherwise you were back down, we also entered a close traffic at something like 600 - 700 ft to buy us some time, normally you'd enter at 800 or 1000 ft...

Here in Colombia I do not bother about locations with less than 1200 m, just too much trouble and very short flights (likely less than 8 min depending on alt, wind etc.)

Markus

[Bill D]

The good news for winch launch is GA activity is WAAAY down at more
remote airports. If the airport manager still has a job, he's
watching every months activity report with dread. Ask for permission
to winch launch and be sure to mention how many flights you'll be
making. The higher the number, the brighter his face will be.



On Jun 6, 4:15*pm, Markus Graeber > wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 6:38:19 AM UTC-5, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> > endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> > winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> > Walt
>
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> I think the Aussies set the minimum at 1200 meters available for a winch operation, otherwise you need a special permit since safety becomes much more critical in case of a launch failure. I learned in Germany on an 800 m strip but we had fields available to the side past the end of the grass runway for straight ahead emergency landings past the winch. With the steel cable we used you more or less had one quick try at a thermal otherwise you were back down, we also entered a close traffic at something like 600 - 700 ft to buy us some time, normally you'd enter at 800 or 1000 ft...
>
> Here in Colombia I do not bother about locations with less than 1200 m, just too much trouble and very short flights (likely less than 8 min depending on alt, wind etc.)
>
> Markus

[J.D. Barron]

If you are wanting to get ground launch endorsement then an auto will
do the same thing.
Of course you can get more altitude from a good winch, but you can get
enough atlitude for a circuit.
Now where can I get a self launching checkride?

[Bill D]

On Jun 6, 6:21*pm, "J.D. Barron" > wrote:
> If you are wanting to get ground launch endorsement then an auto will
> do the same thing.
> Of course you can get more altitude from a good winch, but you can get
> enough atlitude for a circuit.
> Now where can I get a self launching checkride?

For the Part 61.31(j)) endorsement either auto tow or winch will do.
While they are similar, some aspects are actually very different. For
your safety, I'd recommend a good checkout on each.

[toad]

On Jun 6, 7:38*am, Walt Connelly
> wrote:
> Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

The only place that I have ever found advertising an endorsement
training was a soaring club in Houston. If there are any other
operations that will train a new pilot to winch launch, I have not yet
found them. They may exist, but they don't advertise.

The difficulty of finding training and the price of land might be why
there are such limited numbers of winch operations around in the US.

Todd

[Bill D]

On Jun 7, 6:05*am, toad > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 7:38*am, Walt Connelly
>
> > wrote:
> > Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> > endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> > winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> > Walt
>
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> The only place that I have ever found advertising an endorsement
> training was a soaring club in Houston. *If there are any other
> operations that will train a new pilot to winch launch, I have not yet
> found them. *They may exist, but they don't advertise.
>
> The difficulty of finding training and the price of land might be why
> there are such limited numbers of winch operations around in the US.
>
> Todd

There's Cross Country Soaring in Faribault, MN

[GC[_2_]]

On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:

> We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
> 1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
> (~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
> club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

Yes. Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. 1 for 3 is about what I'd
expect with a nil to light wind.

> It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
> and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
> certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
> cable and moderate headwind.
>
> There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
> heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.
>
> To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
> reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. It's a very flexible launching system.

GC
> Chris

[Bill D]

If you're only getting 33% of the rope length, yours is a low
performance winch operation. If you optimize it, 45% or so is
achievable in no-wind conditions. A 10 knot wind can boost that over
50%. Again, I'm saying this is for gliders with better than 30:1 and
rope tensions equal to the weight of the glider. Below 30:1, achieved
height falls off a lot.

On Jun 7, 7:51*am, GC > wrote:
> On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:
>
> > We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
> > 1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
> > (~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
> > club charges 4,- ? for a launch.
>
> Yes. *Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. *1 for 3 is about what I'd
> expect with a nil to light wind.
>
> > It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
> > and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
> > certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
> > cable and moderate headwind.
>
> > There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
> > heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.
>
> > To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
> > reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.
>
> The length you need is wire length - not runway length. *The ground run
> for a launch is barely 100 yards. *Any more is for landing, launch
> emergencies, etc. *Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
> upwind runway threshold. *It's a very flexible launching system.
>
> GC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Chris

[Bill D]

On Jun 7, 7:51*am, GC > wrote:
> On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:
>
> > We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
> > 1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
> > (~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
> > club charges 4,- ? for a launch.
>
> Yes. *Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. *1 for 3 is about what I'd
> expect with a nil to light wind.
>
> > It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
> > and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
> > certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
> > cable and moderate headwind.
>
> > There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
> > heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.
>
> > To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
> > reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.
>
> The length you need is wire length - not runway length. *The ground run
> for a launch is barely 100 yards. *Any more is for landing, launch
> emergencies, etc. *Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
> upwind runway threshold. *It's a very flexible launching system.
>
> GC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Chris

100 yards for acceleration is way too long. A 1G acceleration will
get a glider to 40 knots liftoff speed in 71 feet.

[Marc]

On Jun 7, 5:05*am, toad > wrote:
> The only place that I have ever found advertising an endorsement
> training was a soaring club in Houston. *If there are any other
> operations that will train a new pilot to winch launch, I have not yet
> found them. *They may exist, but they don't advertise.

AGCSC down in southern California runs periodic weekend winch launch
training sessions:

http://www.agcsc.org/

We're putting the finishing touches on a winch that will be used for
training at Crazy Creek in northern California...

Marc

[soartech[_2_]]

I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 12:26:55 PM UTC-4, soartech wrote:
> I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
> Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

We have not experienced this at PGC, however, we do not have SSA insurance. I suspect that the carrier's knowledge--or should I say lack of knowledge--may have a lot to do with this.

Skip

[Chris]

GC wrote:

> The length you need is wire length - not runway length. The ground run
> for a launch is barely 100 yards. Any more is for landing, launch
> emergencies, etc. Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
> upwind runway threshold. It's a very flexible launching system.

While this is true, there is another reason for a 3000 feet runway: safety.
You need to be prepared for a cable break at any time. Up to 300 feet you
can land straight ahead, if there is enough runway left. If the cable breaks
at a higher altitude, you can do a full circle or a short pattern. If the
runway is too short, you can get in a situation where both options do not
apply.

I guess that you refer to this scenario when you talk about launch
emergency. My opinion is that a cable break is no emergency, but is part of
the procedure. It must be trained well, but if the pilot is prepared for a
break, this is no emergency. You can expect a cable break in one of 100
launches.

BTW, my last break on the winch was in 120m. Too high to land straight, so I
initiated a 180 for a short pattern. After that turn, my altimeter showed
150m. I decided to do a full circle and got 200m. Now I continued and got
1300m in the end. This was fun while the guys below had to fix the cable :-)
Chris

[Tom Nau]

On Jun 6, 6:38*am, Walt Connelly
> wrote:
> Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

Come over to San Antonio Soaring Society, our club located at Boerne
Stage airport (5C1). We winched last weekend and plan to do it once a
month this summer. You can get an endorsement with our CFIG.
Tom

[Paul Tribe[_2_]]

At 02:42 08 June 2012, Tom Nau wrote:
>On Jun 6, 6:38=A0am, Walt Connelly
> wrote:
>> Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch
launch
>> endorsement? =A0ALSO, in general how much runway is
needed for an
>adequat=
>e
>> winch launch? =A0What might the minimum runway length
be?
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> --
>> Walt Connelly
>
>Come over to San Antonio Soaring Society, our club located at
Boerne
>Stage airport (5C1). We winched last weekend and plan to do
it once a
>month this summer. You can get an endorsement with our
CFIG.
>Tom
>

I applaud your efforts to promote winching, coming from a UK
club with no current aerotow option, winching is my usual (and
cost effective) way into the sky.
This BGA leaflet is essential reading:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/documents/safewinchbr
ochure-0210.pdf
If you ask them nicely, I expect they'd have no objections to
clubs on your side of the pond printing them off for circulation.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:26:55 AM UTC-6, soartech wrote:
> I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
> Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

Winch liability insurance was split off from premises liability under the SSA plan. Winch hull insurance is also a separate product. The advantage is that the 3rd party liability now allows operation away from home base. So yes, it did increase the fixed cost of operating a winch and included a restriction against using steel wire or steel wire rope.

[GC[_2_]]

On 8/06/2012 03:50, Chris wrote:
> GC wrote:
>
>> The length you need is wire length - not runway length. The ground run
>> for a launch is barely 100 yards. Any more is for landing, launch
>> emergencies, etc. Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
>> upwind runway threshold. It's a very flexible launching system.
>
> While this is true, there is another reason for a 3000 feet runway: safety.
> You need to be prepared for a cable break at any time. Up to 300 feet you
> can land straight ahead, if there is enough runway left. If the cable breaks
> at a higher altitude, you can do a full circle or a short pattern. If the
> runway is too short, you can get in a situation where both options do not
> apply.
>
> I guess that you refer to this scenario when you talk about launch
> emergency.

Well, yes I do.

My opinion is that a cable break is no emergency, but is part of
> the procedure. It must be trained well, but if the pilot is prepared for a
> break, this is no emergency. You can expect a cable break in one of 100
> launches.

Ok, call it 'launch failures'. Whatever floats your boat.

My actual point was that winching is very flexible. On Long Mynd, a
launch emergency (or failure) high enough for a circuit sometimes means
landing at right angles to the takeoff direction. The actual length
requirement is ONLY for ground over which the wire can be laid out. A
winch operation - unlike aerotow - doesn't necessarily require a single
continuous runway.

GC

> BTW, my last break on the winch was in 120m. Too high to land straight, so I
> initiated a 180 for a short pattern. After that turn, my altimeter showed
> 150m. I decided to do a full circle and got 200m. Now I continued and got
> 1300m in the end. This was fun while the guys below had to fix the cable :-)
> Chris

[GC[_2_]]

On 8/06/2012 00:37, Bill D wrote:
> If you're only getting 33% of the rope length, yours is a low
> performance winch operation. If you optimize it, 45% or so is
> achievable in no-wind conditions. A 10 knot wind can boost that over
> 50%. Again, I'm saying this is for gliders with better than 30:1 and
> rope tensions equal to the weight of the glider. Below 30:1, achieved
> height falls off a lot.

I didn't say it was "my" operation and I don't mind your 'low
performance' putdown, Bill. I've been involved in eight different winch
operations and my judgment overall is, like Chris said - 400m from
1200m, about 1:3 is a normal nil to light wind figure. I've read
previous posts on this from you. I think your 45% minimum is optimistic
and you do winching no favours making those promises.

1. The vast majority of winch operations are hand to mouth. Old
winches launching old gliders. Most of us can't afford professional
winches costing the price of 2 Pawnees. Most winches (outside Europe)
are medium- to low-powered. About 1:3 is what they'll get. An aerotow
operation converting to a winch probably won't be a prosperous, thriving
club setting out buy a $100,000 Skylaunch.

2. The vast majority (ALL, in my experience) of winch operations are
optimistic in their claimed launch heights. "He's not a very
experienced driver". "There must be a tailwind at height". "This is
not our best launching direction". "The engine is due to be serviced".
"The wire's a bit shorter than we usually have". I've heard them all
- including (just now) "...if you optimize it...".

I believe YOUR operation will routinely achieve a little better than 1:3
but will rarely exceed 2:5. :)

GC

[150flivver]

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 6:38:19 AM UTC-5, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
> endorsement? ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
> winch launch? What might the minimum runway length be?
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

1:3 jibes with what we get at Boerne Stage (5C1) doing winch launches off 4300 runway.
1400 feet AGL is the common height achieved for the Grob 103.