Flarm Audio and Towplanes

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

Question: How have Flarm users around the world handled the lack of
audio intercom output in the standard Flarm unit when installed in
towplanes?

Is the simple visual LED output on the Flarm display adequate, or have
you had to add auxiliary audio intercom capability to the Flarm for
your towplanes?

As we in the U.S. prepare to deploy PowerFlarm into our fleet, we will
have to deal with this installation issue into our towplanes.

In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
"portable".

We are faced with the decision to either use the brick in our
towplanes with no audio alert, or integrate the portable model, having
to add external displays and antenna to this otherwise self-contained
unit.

What have others found regarding the need for an auxiliary headset
audio output when towing with the Flarm?

Thanks

Bob

[kd6veb]

Hi Bob
Motorgliders and tow planes need to have the PowerFlarm audio signal
spliced into into the cable to the headset otherwise the audio warning
signals from the PowerFlarm unit are too low to be heard. I have been
through this exercise with the portable unit. You cannot just parallel
drive the headset with the PowerFlarm and radio. If you do that you
will have a conflict with the output of the radio diminishing both the
volume and the distortion (Becker Radio). What you need to do is to
put a 51 ohm resistor in series with the output of the PowerFlarm to
the headset. This negates the conflict and allows compatibility
between the audio levels of the radio and Power Flarm. Why?
My PowerFlarm resets itself every time I press the starter motor
button. In resetting the alarm audio level defaults to maximum volume
which is much louder than the radio using the headset. The 51 ohm
resistor sets the volume perfectly for me.
PowerFlarm is still a work in progress. One would have hoped that
they by now would have fixed the teething problems. But no. Maybe
sometime in the future? Good luck.
Dave



On Jun 7, 6:07*pm, Bob Gibbons > wrote:
> Question: How have Flarm users around the world handled the lack of
> audio intercom output in the standard Flarm unit when installed in
> towplanes?
>
> Is the simple visual LED output on the Flarm display adequate, or have
> you had to add auxiliary audio intercom capability to the Flarm for
> your towplanes?
>
> As we in the U.S. prepare to deploy PowerFlarm into our fleet, we will
> have to deal with this installation issue into our towplanes.
>
> In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
> from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
> "portable".
>
> We are faced with the decision to either use the brick in our
> towplanes with no audio alert, or integrate the portable model, having
> to add external displays and antenna to this otherwise self-contained
> unit.
>
> What have others found regarding the need for an auxiliary headset
> audio output when towing with the Flarm?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob

[bumper[_4_]]

Bob,

I did a post on this earlier. I use my PowerFlarm portable in both my glider and Husky tow plane. I installed a plug-in super bright LED that attaches to the side of the PF with Velcro. It plugs into the audio out and the coaxial power jack on the PF, so is easy to remove. It uses the PF audio out to bias a transistor driver for the alarm LED - - bright enough to get your attention even in full sunlight.

One can also wire the PF audio out directly to the headset jack in the aircraft. Even though the PF has menu adjustable audio out level, depending on audio levels desired, you may need to install a series dropping resistor of 50 ohms or more to lower the audio to a reasonable level.

bumper

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 6/8/2012 10:01 AM, bumper wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I did a post on this earlier. I use my PowerFlarm portable in both my
> glider and Husky tow plane. I installed a plug-in super bright LED
> that attaches to the side of the PF with Velcro. It plugs into the
> audio out and the coaxial power jack on the PF, so is easy to remove.
> It uses the PF audio out to bias a transistor driver for the alarm
> LED - - bright enough to get your attention even in full sunlight.
>
> One can also wire the PF audio out directly to the headset jack in
> the aircraft. Even though the PF has menu adjustable audio out
> level, depending on audio levels desired, you may need to install a
> series dropping resistor of 50 ohms or more to lower the audio to a
> reasonable level.

An alternative for towplanes with an intercom (separate box or built
into the radio) is to have the PowerFlarm audio output connect to one of
the intercom inputs. That will bring it to the pilot's headset without
any conflicts.

Some newer radios, like the MGL Avionics V6 I just installed, also have
dedicated audio inputs for warning devices like the PowerFlarm.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, June 8, 2012 11:32:59 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 6/8/2012 10:01 AM, bumper wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > I did a post on this earlier. I use my PowerFlarm portable in both my
> > glider and Husky tow plane. I installed a plug-in super bright LED
> > that attaches to the side of the PF with Velcro. It plugs into the
> > audio out and the coaxial power jack on the PF, so is easy to remove.
> > It uses the PF audio out to bias a transistor driver for the alarm
> > LED - - bright enough to get your attention even in full sunlight.
> >
> > One can also wire the PF audio out directly to the headset jack in
> > the aircraft. Even though the PF has menu adjustable audio out
> > level, depending on audio levels desired, you may need to install a
> > series dropping resistor of 50 ohms or more to lower the audio to a
> > reasonable level.
>
> An alternative for towplanes with an intercom (separate box or built
> into the radio) is to have the PowerFlarm audio output connect to one of
> the intercom inputs. That will bring it to the pilot's headset without
> any conflicts.
>
> Some newer radios, like the MGL Avionics V6 I just installed, also have
> dedicated audio inputs for warning devices like the PowerFlarm.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

Many newer aviation headsets have a direct audio input designed for iPods/MP3 players or cell phones. e.g. The Clarity Alofts I use in the ASH-26E do....

Darryl

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jun 7, 6:07*pm, Bob Gibbons > wrote:
It's interesting that of all the replies so far everyone has ignored
the issue you raised.

> In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
> from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
> "portable".


Andy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 6/8/2012 1:45 PM, Andy wrote:

I ignored it because I couldn't find a full specification or manual for
the brick; however, I'd be surprised if it doesn't have the audio output
port, as it would seem to be even more useful on the brick than on the
portable. Perhaps the audio port is available on a remote display? Just
guessing, since I did not find the specifications

> On Jun 7, 6:07 pm, Bob > wrote:
> It's interesting that of all the replies so far everyone has ignored
> the issue you raised.
>
>> In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
>> from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
>> "portable".
>
>
> Andy


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jun 8, 2:53*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 6/8/2012 1:45 PM, Andy wrote:
>
> I ignored it because I couldn't find a full specification or manual for
> the brick; however, I'd be surprised if it doesn't have the audio output
> port, as it would seem to be even more useful on the brick than on the
> portable. Perhaps the audio port is available on a remote display? Just
> guessing, since I did not find the specifications
>

I reviewed the brick preliminary user manual. It makes no mention of
an audio output port. There is no audio output connector shown in the
pictures and no mention of audio output in any of the connector pin
outs. I couldn't even find any mention of audio alarms. The manual
is preliminary though.

It is my understanding that the alarm audio is provided by the
rectangular display that is an option with the brick. If that's true
then the audio alert is probably encoded in the serial data output(s)
of the brick. I am not aware that this display provides an audio
jack.

Andy

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

Just to clarify, the replies on how to integrate the PowerFlarm's
portable audio port into a headset are interesting.

However, what I really wanted to know is the operating experience of
non-US towplane operators using the classic PowerFlarm (which does not
have audio).

Has this proven to be a serious deficiency, or have your tow pilots
managed to manage with the purely visual threat warnings from the
display itself?

Bob


On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 20:07:33 -0500, Bob Gibbons >
wrote:

>
>Question: How have Flarm users around the world handled the lack of
>audio intercom output in the standard Flarm unit when installed in
>towplanes?
>
>Is the simple visual LED output on the Flarm display adequate, or have
>you had to add auxiliary audio intercom capability to the Flarm for
>your towplanes?
>
>As we in the U.S. prepare to deploy PowerFlarm into our fleet, we will
>have to deal with this installation issue into our towplanes.
>
>In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
>from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
>"portable".
>
>We are faced with the decision to either use the brick in our
>towplanes with no audio alert, or integrate the portable model, having
>to add external displays and antenna to this otherwise self-contained
>unit.
>
>What have others found regarding the need for an auxiliary headset
>audio output when towing with the Flarm?
>
>Thanks
>
>Bob

[Three Uniform]

I highlighted that already in the original thread when the Brick
manuals became available:
https://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/browse_thread/thread/c0114b3301830fb3/458775b7bdd8ba1b#458775b7bdd8ba1b

It might have to do with the system architecture, where the brick does
the calculations, but the display needs to take care of the
presentation of the data to the user, visual as well as audio.

On the other hand, the Garrecht Brick TRX-1500 does have an audio
output (and an additional serial interface) in the D-Sub15HD
connector.
http://garrecht.com/index.php/en/ads-b/trx-1500.

It is indeed a bummer that the PowerFlarm brick does not have this
feature.
As Eric said, most newer radios have great features to input audio
from other sources (and mix/switch it properly)

Now, I still have some hope:
In the current published PowerFlarm Brick documentation, on the DB9
connector, pins 1, 4 and 6 have not been described.
I am keeping my fingers crossed.
Hopefully someone from the Flarm team can shed a light.

3U

[Hagbard Celine]

"Hopefully someone from the Flarm team can shed a light."

Yeah, that would be a welcome and refreshing change!

[GC[_2_]]

On 9/06/2012 08:49, Bob Gibbons wrote:
> Just to clarify, the replies on how to integrate the PowerFlarm's
> portable audio port into a headset are interesting.
>
> However, what I really wanted to know is the operating experience of
> non-US towplane operators using the classic PowerFlarm (which does not
> have audio).
>
> Has this proven to be a serious deficiency, or have your tow pilots
> managed to manage with the purely visual threat warnings from the
> display itself?

OzFlarms destined for tugs were modded by Nigel with an audio output to
be wired into the headset.

Without that the normal audio is useless in a tug.

GC


>
> Bob
>
>
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 20:07:33 -0500, Bob >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Question: How have Flarm users around the world handled the lack of
>> audio intercom output in the standard Flarm unit when installed in
>> towplanes?
>>
>> Is the simple visual LED output on the Flarm display adequate, or have
>> you had to add auxiliary audio intercom capability to the Flarm for
>> your towplanes?
>>
>> As we in the U.S. prepare to deploy PowerFlarm into our fleet, we will
>> have to deal with this installation issue into our towplanes.
>>
>> In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
>>from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
>> "portable".
>>
>> We are faced with the decision to either use the brick in our
>> towplanes with no audio alert, or integrate the portable model, having
>> to add external displays and antenna to this otherwise self-contained
>> unit.
>>
>> What have others found regarding the need for an auxiliary headset
>> audio output when towing with the Flarm?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Bob

[Matt McKrell]

On Jun 9, 7:13*am, GC > wrote:
> On 9/06/2012 08:49, Bob Gibbons wrote:
>
> > Just to clarify, the replies on how to integrate the PowerFlarm's
> > portable audio port into a headset are interesting.
>
> > However, what I really wanted to know is the operating experience of
> > non-US towplane operators using the classic PowerFlarm (which does not
> > have audio).
>
> > Has this proven to be a serious deficiency, or have your tow pilots
> > managed to manage with the purely visual threat warnings from the
> > display itself?
>
> OzFlarms destined for tugs were modded by Nigel with an audio output to
> be wired into the headset.
>
> Without that the normal audio is useless in a tug.
>
> GC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bob
>
> > On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 20:07:33 -0500, Bob >
> > wrote:
>
> >> Question: How have Flarm users around the world handled the lack of
> >> audio intercom output in the standard Flarm unit when installed in
> >> towplanes?
>
> >> Is the simple visual LED output on the Flarm display adequate, or have
> >> you had to add auxiliary audio intercom capability to the Flarm for
> >> your towplanes?
>
> >> As we in the U.S. prepare to deploy PowerFlarm into our fleet, we will
> >> have to deal with this installation issue into our towplanes.
>
> >> In an unfortunate decision (my opinion), Flarm has opted to delete
> >>from the "brick" model the intercom audio output that is part of the
> >> "portable".
>
> >> We are faced with the decision to either use the brick in our
> >> towplanes with no audio alert, or integrate the portable model, having
> >> to add external displays and antenna to this otherwise self-contained
> >> unit.
>
> >> What have others found regarding the need for an auxiliary headset
> >> audio output when towing with the Flarm?
>
> >> Thanks
>
> >> Bob

The only connection to the display units is the 6 pin RJ45 cable from
the FLARM unit.
There aren't any lines available for audio. The Butterfly display
manual refers to an
internal audio unit. The mounting for the rectangular display only
lists a single small square
hole for the RJ45. It really looks like a dead end without a physical
redesign of
the unit. The only way to get separate audio output is to install the
portable.

-- Matt

[bumper[_4_]]

On Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:13:13 AM UTC-7, GC wrote:
> >
> Without that the normal audio is useless in a tug.
>
> GC
>

I'd say it's far from useless. I fly a Pawnee without audio connected and simply include the PowerFlarm in my scan. It gives valuable information, though I agree connecting the audio is better - - and we plan to do that.

The PF is my Husky has a super bright LED as an alarm annunciator, which for me is just as good as an audio alarm.

bumper

[GC[_2_]]

On 10/06/2012 13:04, bumper wrote:
> On Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:13:13 AM UTC-7, GC wrote:
>>>
>> Without that the normal audio is useless in a tug.
>>
>> GC
>>
>
> I'd say it's far from useless. I fly a Pawnee without audio
> connected and simply include the PowerFlarm in my scan. It gives
> valuable information, though I agree connecting the audio is better -
> - and we plan to do that.
>
> The PF is my Husky has a super bright LED as an alarm annunciator,
> which for me is just as good as an audio alarm.
>
> bumper

I said the AUDIO was useless, not Flarm.

Scanning the PF and adding big LEDs is visual, not audible and neither
is 'just as good' as having it fed into your headset. The OP asked if
the built-in Flarm audio was useful in a tug and that's what I replied
to. Our Club's experience is that it's not.

I'd also repeat the bit you deleted. OzFlarms intended for tugs were
modded by their manufacturer (using a soldering iron) to have a lead to
feed the audio into the headset. Surely if it can be done this far from
civilisation, something similar can be arranged in the centre of the
known world without everyone having to whine at the designer.

I'd also say that that was about 5 years ago. Flarmboy (Nigel) got a
licence, got the radio approvals locally and manufactured and sold them
himself. Most Oz gliders have had Flarm for several years. I'd guess
that something similar could have been done by an enterprising person in
the US but...? :)

GC