Big Kahunas

[Wdtabor]

In article >, Frank > writes:

>
>As an example take the "sanctions" imposed on Iraq. Many scoff and say they
>didn't work and they are right. But we pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't
>work by not pressuring others to support them and turning a blind eye when
>we knew they were being violated. In other words, we weren't as committed
>to using our economic power as we are now to using our military. As a
>result we lost much of our moral high ground.
>

How, exactly, does one pressure France?

Short of standing on their border and shouting at them in German.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <d4RBb.29632$ZE1.26228@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>On 10 Dec 2003 19:14:07 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:
>
>> In article <kivBb.29415$ZE1.25509@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
>> > writes:
>>
>> >
>> >I think you don't know what some US corporations are doing in other
>> >"emerging" countries.
>>
>> Providing a means for them to emerge.
>
>
>I was talking about this emerge from the dictionary:
>"to rise from an obscure or inferior position or condition"
>
>So you assume that they are in an inferior position or condition
>and that's part of the problem. And you must assume no matter
>what the corporations to it's progress. But that's unfortunately
>not true.
>

Inferior is a loaded word.

Emerging nations and developed nations trade. They trade what they can do
better for what others do better.

We raise wheat better and develop technology better, they provide cheap labor
better.

We can't buy jet engines from or electric generators from emerging nations
because they don't sell them. We buy cheap labor from them because that is
what, for now, they have to offer. The alternative is to not buy what they have
to sell and let them do without our wheat and technology.

That isn't helping them.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <emRBb.29640$ZE1.24408@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>
>Those $5 picture frames will have a long term cost that cannot be paid back.
>
>

Those $5 picture frames are what those folks have to offer, for now.

WOuld you prefer we don't buy them and let them eat picture frames?

Or pay $10 for the same frame, and not have the other $5 to spend on something
else some other third world worker wants to sell us so He and his children can
starve?

No matter how good your intentions, you cannot overrule the free market. Every
time you try to distort the market to help some poor sap you can see, you hurt
some other poor sap you don't see.

The market allocates resources better than anyone in authority can, no matter
how wise and beneficent they think they are.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[R. Hubbell]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:15:45 GMT Bob Noel > wrote:

> In article >,
> (leslie) wrote:
>
> > Jay Honeck ) wrote:
> > : > I think you don't know what some US corporations are doing in other
> > : > "emerging" countries.
> > :
> > : Enlighten us, please.
> > :
> > http://www.globalexchange.org/economy/econ101/survey.html
> > : Globalization Survey Reveals U.S. Corporations Prefer Dictatorships
> >
> > "American businesses may say they believe in democracy, but they are
> > not putting their money where their mouth is, according to a report
> > by a Washington-based think tank..."
> >
> > Corporations have a similar management style.
>
> consumers in the US and across the world also have responsibility.


Bingo! Damn right. We have a throw away mentality here and it's not likely
to change and that effects the globe.


>
> --
> Bob Noel

[R. Hubbell]

On 11 Dec 2003 16:21:41 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <d4RBb.29632$ZE1.26228@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >On 10 Dec 2003 19:14:07 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <kivBb.29415$ZE1.25509@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> >> > writes:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I think you don't know what some US corporations are doing in other
> >> >"emerging" countries.
> >>
> >> Providing a means for them to emerge.
> >
> >
> >I was talking about this emerge from the dictionary:
> >"to rise from an obscure or inferior position or condition"
> >
> >So you assume that they are in an inferior position or condition
> >and that's part of the problem. And you must assume no matter
> >what the corporations to it's progress. But that's unfortunately
> >not true.
> >
>
> Inferior is a loaded word.


What's loaded about it?

>
> Emerging nations and developed nations trade. They trade what they can do
> better for what others do better.


But the process lays waste to the "emerging" nation in social costs and
environmental costs. But what do you care as long as you can buy your
goods cheaply. You don't have to look at the consequences.


>
> We raise wheat better and develop technology better, they provide cheap labor
> better.

No we subsidize our wheat farmers better and enforce higher tariffs on
competing technology better.



>
> We can't buy jet engines from or electric generators from emerging nations
> because they don't sell them. We buy cheap labor from them because that is
> what, for now, they have to offer. The alternative is to not buy what they have
> to sell and let them do without our wheat and technology.


See above.

>
> That isn't helping them.

So you think we're helping them and I don't think we're helping them.
They should be helping themselves but we're trying to drag them along
with us whether they want to come or not.



R. Hubbell
>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[R. Hubbell]

On 11 Dec 2003 16:21:42 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <emRBb.29640$ZE1.24408@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Those $5 picture frames will have a long term cost that cannot be paid back.
> >
> >
>
> Those $5 picture frames are what those folks have to offer, for now.


At least until all the forests are gone there, yes.


>
> WOuld you prefer we don't buy them and let them eat picture frames?


I would prefer that they realize that it would be better for them to
not bother trying to keep up with the Jones. The Jones might seem
happy but there is a high price to pay for that happiness and it's
essentially empty.


>
> Or pay $10 for the same frame, and not have the other $5 to spend on something
> else some other third world worker wants to sell us so He and his children can
> starve?

See above.


>
> No matter how good your intentions, you cannot overrule the free market. Every
> time you try to distort the market to help some poor sap you can see, you hurt
> some other poor sap you don't see.

See above.


>
> The market allocates resources better than anyone in authority can, no matter
> how wise and beneficent they think they are.


Look past the "market", move away the curtain and look what's really behind it
if you have the capacity to do so. The planet is not inexhaustible, unfortunately.


R. Hubbell
>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Jay Honeck]

> If you do a web search you'll see reports of between 200,000 to 500,000
> popular votes favoring Gore and of course an argument of what that really
> means.

C'mon, the USA Today election map at
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif clearly shows that the country
OVERWHELMINGLY supported Bush. The fact that the big cities happen to have
more dead voters just graphically illustrates who is GETTING the tax money,
versus who is PAYING it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Look past the "market", move away the curtain and look what's really
behind it
> if you have the capacity to do so. The planet is not inexhaustible,
unfortunately.

You know, your platitudes are getting tiresome.

We're all aware of the limitations and transitory hardships that trade can
impose, but -- at the moment -- no one has come up with a better economic
model. If you *truly* have a better alternative to the free market, tell
us.

If you don't, suck it up, quityerbitchin', realize that in this world there
are winners and losers, and try to improve things in your own neighborhood.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Oh yes, that's right. The "Thai (and Chinese) people are simply more
> dedicated to what they're trying to do economically than we are".
>
> Perhaps the fact that the workers are paid 24 cents an hour and work 84
> hours a week might have something to do with it. But who cares what the
> Chinese are paid. We get our toys dirt-cheap.

Okay, how else would YOU define "dedication"?

If these folks are willing to work 84 hours per week, for 24 cents per hour,
I'd say it's pretty obvious who is more devoted to what they're trying to do
economically. Would YOU work for that pay?

The obvious answer is "nope". Guess who is more dedicated?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Earl Grieda" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:cMMBb.302393$Dw6.1006170@attbi_s02...
> >
> > It's amazing, isn't it? I don't pretend to
> > understand how they can possibly make that stuff
> > in Thailand cheaper than we can make it here --
> > the shipping alone has to cost 50% or more of that
> > six bucks.
> >
> > I was just out shopping for my kid's Xmas presents.
> > On the shelf was a "real" "GI Joe", for $21.00. Next
> > to it was a knock-off that actually had MORE cool stuff,
> > for $4.99. Funny thing is, BOTH were made in China -- so
> > what's the difference? One said "Hasbro", and one was
> > "No Name" -- what do I care?
> >
> > I bought TWO of the No-Names...
> >
> > I'd guess that the Thai (and Chinese) people are simply
> > more dedicated to what they're trying to do economically
> > than we are...
> > --
>
> http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/7449186.htm
>
>
> Earl G.
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> How, exactly, does one pressure France?
>
> Short of standing on their border and shouting at them in German.

On the contrary, I believe we have found the PERFECT method of pressuring
the French (and other so-called "allies") -- we have quite simply
disqualified them from bidding on any reconstruction contracts in Iraq.

This has been "Big News" the last couple of days, as if it were somehow
revolutionary to exclude disloyal nations from reaping the benefits of our
labors. Personally, I call it "justice".

Money talks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig Giacona]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:kp1Cb.56$pY.17@fed1read04...

> Look past the "market", move away the curtain and look what's really
behind it
> if you have the capacity to do so. The planet is not inexhaustible,
unfortunately.
>
>
> R. Hubbell
> >

Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out. Trees can be
replanted and in a matter of years you can't tell they were ever gone.

We will not ever run out of oil. It will become more expensive but as it
does the motivation to create an alternative will increase.

That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause all
materials to be used for the most efficient use.

[Montblack]

Aviation related:
Passenger Pigeons comes to mind.

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif


"Gig Giacona"
> Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out. Trees can be
> replanted and in a matter of years you can't tell they were ever gone.

[Wdtabor]

In article <0l1Cb.55$pY.42@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>
>>
>> We can't buy jet engines from or electric generators from emerging nations
>> because they don't sell them. We buy cheap labor from them because that is
>> what, for now, they have to offer. The alternative is to not buy what they
>have
>> to sell and let them do without our wheat and technology.
>
>
>See above.
>

In other words, you have no answer.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <kp1Cb.56$pY.17@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>> > writes:
>>
>> >
>> >Those $5 picture frames will have a long term cost that cannot be paid
>back.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Those $5 picture frames are what those folks have to offer, for now.
>
>
>At least until all the forests are gone there, yes.
>


Uh huh, so you think they're going to deplete the rainforests making picture
frames.

So,you have no real answers, just leftist slogans.

Next come the accussations of greed.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <Co2Cb.502462$HS4.3878194@attbi_s01>, "Jay Honeck"
> writes:

>
>> How, exactly, does one pressure France?
>>
>> Short of standing on their border and shouting at them in German.
>
>On the contrary, I believe we have found the PERFECT method of pressuring
>the French (and other so-called "allies") -- we have quite simply
>disqualified them from bidding on any reconstruction contracts in Iraq.
>
>This has been "Big News" the last couple of days, as if it were somehow
>revolutionary to exclude disloyal nations from reaping the benefits of our
>labors. Personally, I call it "justice".
>
>Money talks.

Expect Bush to let them bid after they forgive all or part of the Iraqi debt.

Which should be called the Baathist debt since the Iraqi's never benefited from
it, and they should be collecting it from Saddam.

But still, when they make the cocession of forgiving that debt, Bush will let
them in .

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Gig Giacona"
> writes:

>
>That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause all
>materials to be used for the most efficient use.
>

Sadly, they never seem to let it alone, a clods like Jimmy Carter who think
they are smarter than the market cause havoc trying to "do good."


Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[G.R. Patterson III]

Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out.

Cuban mahogany. We will never, ever see marketable trees of this again as long
as the world lasts.

The list of extinct animals is a lot longer and growing all the time.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

ET wrote:
>
> Uh, last I checked, tree's are a crop....

That's like saying "plants are a crop", and is just as inaccurate. Nobody on
Earth is planting black walnut or black cherry trees. I doubt there will ever
come a time when people in the U.S. are willing to plant a crop that can't be
harvested for 150 years or so. Even with the slash pine, which is grown as a
crop in the south, the stuff being harvested today is junk compared to what I
used to be able to buy as 2x4s 30 years ago. Cuban mahogany (the stuff that
Chippendale worked) is extinct as a lumber tree.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Wdtabor wrote:
>
> Uh huh, so you think they're going to deplete the rainforests making picture
> frames.

The Indonesians are doing exactly that, and have been for at least 15 years.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Carl Ellis]

Statistics from the US government no less
http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm
Bush 47.87% (50,456,897) vs Gore 48.38% (50,999,897)

Doesn't look overwhelming to me.

You are misinterpretting the data that the map represents.

- Carl -

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ja2Cb.310866$Dw6.1046389@attbi_s02...
> > If you do a web search you'll see reports of between 200,000 to 500,000
> > popular votes favoring Gore and of course an argument of what that
really
> > means.
>
> C'mon, the USA Today election map at
> http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif clearly shows that the
country
> OVERWHELMINGLY supported Bush. The fact that the big cities happen to
have
> more dead voters just graphically illustrates who is GETTING the tax
money,
> versus who is PAYING it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003

[R. Hubbell]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:59:58 GMT ET > wrote:

> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in news:kp1Cb.56$pY.17
> @fed1read04:
>
> > At least until all the forests are gone there, yes.
> >
>
> Uh, last I checked, tree's are a crop....


I missed the point if it is here.


R. Hubbell


>
> --
> ET >:)
>
>
> "A common mistake people make when trying to design something
> completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
> fools."---- Douglas Adams

[R. Hubbell]

On 11 Dec 2003 21:09:35 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <kp1Cb.56$pY.17@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >> > writes:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Those $5 picture frames will have a long term cost that cannot be paid
> >back.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Those $5 picture frames are what those folks have to offer, for now.
> >
> >
> >At least until all the forests are gone there, yes.
> >
>
>
> Uh huh, so you think they're going to deplete the rainforests making picture
> frames.

You may not realize it but they are making much more than picture frames.
I came across a beautiful coat tree at an antique dealer, one of those
consigment places, and this coat tree was for sale with a price that an
antique would fetch. I almost bought it but didn't when on closer
inspection I realized it was made from tropical hardwood (not oak).
I didn't buy it because I wanted an antique. My point is that there
are so many thing made from tropical hardwoods you wouldn't even guess.

>
> So,you have no real answers, just leftist slogans.
>
> Next come the accussations of greed.


It seems you have run out of arguments. And now have resorted to circumstantial
ad hominem. This is a place for discourse.



R. Hubbell

>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[R. Hubbell]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:55:31 -0500 "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:

>
>
> Wdtabor wrote:
> >
> > Uh huh, so you think they're going to deplete the rainforests making picture
> > frames.
>
> The Indonesians are doing exactly that, and have been for at least 15 years.

Yes and I think a little more than 15, mid-80's or so.


R. Hubbell

>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
> hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[R. Hubbell]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:38:37 -0600 "Gig Giacona" > wrote:

>
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> news:kp1Cb.56$pY.17@fed1read04...
>
> > Look past the "market", move away the curtain and look what's really
> behind it
> > if you have the capacity to do so. The planet is not inexhaustible,
> unfortunately.
> >
> >
> > R. Hubbell
> > >
>
> Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out. Trees can be
> replanted and in a matter of years you can't tell they were ever gone.


The list is so long, if you want to know go to google.com and type extinct.

As for your tree theory, unfortunately you're wrong. New, fast grwoth trees
don't provide anywhere near the same quality of lumber that natural, old growth
does. For this reason more than a few companies have started to "mine" the
logs that became waterlogged during the boom time of logging. Those logs
sunk to the bottom of lakes (great lakes, et. al.) and fetch huge sums of
money for their high quality. Most are preserved perfectly.

>
> We will not ever run out of oil. It will become more expensive but as it
> does the motivation to create an alternative will increase


Depends on who you ask, never is a word to be used carefully. I don't think
many people actually care that we use up all the oil. The concern is what
the burning of hydrocarbons is doing to the atmosphere and to us. Check
out the rate of asthma in children in the L.A. basin. Tragic. So the
drive to produce alternates comes from people who really care. Check out
the Toyota Prius. They're selling like hotcakes even with high tariffs.

>
> That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause all
> materials to be used for the most efficient use.


Dream on. :)


R. Hubbell

>
>

[R. Hubbell]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:01:10 GMT "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Look past the "market", move away the curtain and look what's really
> behind it
> > if you have the capacity to do so. The planet is not inexhaustible,
> unfortunately.
>
> You know, your platitudes are getting tiresome.

Insults are a sign of a lack of an argument. Ad hominem.

>
> We're all aware of the limitations and transitory hardships that trade can
> impose, but -- at the moment -- no one has come up with a better economic

Clearly we all aren't aware of the limitations, but talking about it is a start.
Can you imagine selling your child forever to indentured servitude? That's
happening. Get your G.I. Joe for $4.95 but at least be aware that the low price
bares another social cost.


> model. If you *truly* have a better alternative to the free market, tell
> us.

And if I don't does that mean I the discussion is over? Come on, it's not
about a better model it's about being aware of the costs of the current model
and being aware that it's starting to creak and some of the rivets have
popped.


>
> If you don't, suck it up, quityerbitchin', realize that in this world there
> are winners and losers, and try to improve things in your own neighborhood.


It's important to know that what we do as a society effects the rest of
the globe. At least it's important to me. I am wiling to accept that
it is not important to others. But that doesn't change my stance.

Ponder this, 2.6 billion more souls will be added to the planet over the
next 50 years. Go ahead and concentrate on your neighborhood while all
around you there are bigger problems at hand. Either cause is good.
I'm choosing the larger cause. Although I do act locally as well.

R. Hubbell


> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Tom]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ja2Cb.310866$Dw6.1046389@attbi_s02...
> > If you do a web search you'll see reports of between 200,000 to 500,000
> > popular votes favoring Gore and of course an argument of what that
really
> > means.

Considering that an estimate 800K to 1.2M illegal aliens voted in the 2000
election, those numbers are dubious. And that's not to mention the several
states that had very quesionable vote totals...that all got lost in the
Florida flare-up.

>
> C'mon, the USA Today election map at
> http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif clearly shows that the
country
> OVERWHELMINGLY supported Bush. The fact that the big cities happen to
have
> more dead voters just graphically illustrates who is GETTING the tax
money,
> versus who is PAYING it.

Wasn't it LBJ that got more votes than there were live voters in his first
Senate run?


Not to mention colleges...like the one in Wisconsin where guys were voting
15, 20 time. One student bragged about casting 29 ballots...all right under
the noses of "impartial" voter boards.

[Tom]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Gh2Cb.310889$Dw6.1048047@attbi_s02...
> > Look past the "market", move away the curtain and look what's really
> behind it
> > if you have the capacity to do so. The planet is not inexhaustible,
> unfortunately.
>
> You know, your platitudes are getting tiresome.

And they're wrong, because while earth's resources may be finaite, human
creativity is not.

Just another example of the left's brain-dead mental process (and they claim
to be soooo superior).

[Tom]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8k2Cb.310897$Dw6.1047782@attbi_s02...
> > Oh yes, that's right. The "Thai (and Chinese) people are simply more
> > dedicated to what they're trying to do economically than we are".
> >
> > Perhaps the fact that the workers are paid 24 cents an hour and work 84
> > hours a week might have something to do with it. But who cares what the
> > Chinese are paid. We get our toys dirt-cheap.
>
> Okay, how else would YOU define "dedication"?
>
> If these folks are willing to work 84 hours per week, for 24 cents per
hour,
> I'd say it's pretty obvious who is more devoted to what they're trying to
do
> economically. Would YOU work for that pay?
>
> The obvious answer is "nope". Guess who is more dedicated?

And in China and the Far East, those are good conditions considering where
they've been until just a few years ago.

Hey...I thought Communism, ala China, was supposed to be the "workers
paradise"?? Meb'be not!

[Tom]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gig Giacona wrote:
> >
> > Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out.
>
> Cuban mahogany. We will never, ever see marketable trees of this again as
long
> as the world lasts.

So?

>
> The list of extinct animals is a lot longer and growing all the time.

And has been for over a billion years.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Carl Ellis" > writes:

> Statistics from the US government no less
> http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm
> Bush 47.87% (50,456,897) vs Gore 48.38% (50,999,897)
>
> Doesn't look overwhelming to me.
>
> You are misinterpretting the data that the map represents.

And that number for Gore is more people than have *ever* voted for
*any* candidate for public office in America.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[Earl Grieda]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8k2Cb.310897$Dw6.1047782@attbi_s02...
> > Oh yes, that's right. The "Thai (and Chinese) people are simply more
> > dedicated to what they're trying to do economically than we are".
> >
> > Perhaps the fact that the workers are paid 24 cents an hour and work 84
> > hours a week might have something to do with it. But who cares what the
> > Chinese are paid. We get our toys dirt-cheap.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/7449186.htm
>
> Okay, how else would YOU define "dedication"?

Well, there is the dictionary definition:

Main Entry: ded·i·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "de-di-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or rite of dedicating to a divine being or to a sacred use
2 : a devoting or setting aside for a particular purpose
3 : a name and often a message prefixed to a literary, musical, or artistic
production in tribute to a person or cause
4 : self-sacrificing devotion
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

However, when it comes to work I would define dedication to a job as loving
the job. In so far as these Chinese workers I would say they are exploited,
not dedicated. If you think that these people love working 84 hours a week
for 24 cents an hour then you really are in a fantasy world. And please
spare me the nonsense of its "the market and capitalism" at work, or how
much better off they are now than before they had these great jobs.

>
> If these folks are willing to work 84 hours per week, for 24 cents per
hour,
> I'd say it's pretty obvious who is more devoted to what they're trying to
do
> economically. Would YOU work for that pay?
>
> The obvious answer is "nope". Guess who is more dedicated?
> --

Of course I wouldn't work for that. Why should I? I give up, who is more
dedicated?

[Jay Honeck]

> 2 : a devoting or setting aside for a particular purpose

I'd say that just about covers it.

> However, when it comes to work I would define dedication to a job as
loving
> the job. In so far as these Chinese workers I would say they are
exploited,
> not dedicated.

They are only being "exploited" if they are being coerced into working long
hours for "low" pay. Is someone standing there with a gun at their heads?
Do they have better alternatives? Have they *ever* had better alternatives?

24 cents an hour is better than they have ever had before. Don't ask the
unemployed American steel worker what he thinks -- that's irrelevant.
Instead, ask the Chinese guy who was making 18 cents an hour five years ago
what *he* thinks -- I imagine he'll think a 33% wage increase looks pretty
darned good.

Everything is relative. Right now, I'm working 60+hours per week and
earning less than I used to pay my motor route newspaper drivers -- and
loving it. Would you do it? Only if you're "devoted" to achieving a goal,
like I am. The Chinese are no different.

> Of course I wouldn't work for that. Why should I? I give up, who is more
> dedicated?

Well, let me spell it out for you: The Chinese guy!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wdtabor]

In article <QjaCb.182$pY.74@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>
>Clearly we all aren't aware of the limitations, but talking about it is a
>start.
>Can you imagine selling your child forever to indentured servitude? That's
>happening. Get your G.I. Joe for $4.95 but at least be aware that the low
>price
>bares another social cost.
>

But you must also keep in mind that NOT buying that $4.95 action figure also
bears a social cost. Every choice has social costs for someone.

And, the free market makes those choices better than your social ideology.
Those third world laborers most willing to work for low wages are the ones most
desparately in need of employment.

If you really want to help them, get rich, get government out of everyone
else's way so they can get rich, balance environmental concerns with economic
concerns, here and abroad, so we get even richer, and we can afford LOTS of
picture frames and action figures.

And don't impose your value system and environmental concerns on those in
developing countries. To you, that mahogany rainforest in Sumatra might be most
valuable as orangutan housing, but to the people who live there, that
rainforest is capital they can convert into houses, schools and hospitals. If
you want it saved for the orangutans, then make it worth their while by
planning your vacation to include orangutan watching and spend lots of money
there.

But don't tell them that their children have to starve because you won't
purchase anything made of tropical hardwoods because the orangutans are more
important than their children.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <QjaCb.182$pY.74@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>>
>> You know, your platitudes are getting tiresome.
>
>Insults are a sign of a lack of an argument. Ad hominem.
>
>>

You're misusing Ad Hominem.

If I said, "Because Hubbell says X=1, X must equal something other than 1,"
that would be an Ad Hominem argument, that the statement is false simply
because of your advocacy of that position.

Ad Hominem would not include the statement "Hubbell is insufficiently grounded
in reality to determine the value of X." That would be a personal insult, but
not an Ad Hominem argument.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Earl Grieda"
> writes:

>
>However, when it comes to work I would define dedication to a job as loving
>the job. In so far as these Chinese workers I would say they are exploited,
>not dedicated. If you think that these people love working 84 hours a week
>for 24 cents an hour then you really are in a fantasy world. And please
>spare me the nonsense of its "the market and capitalism" at work, or how
>much better off they are now than before they had these great jobs.
>

Why would you want to be spared from the truth?

Were it your own family in question, would you rather work long hours at low
pay to feed them or be unemployed because you demanded a higher rate of pay,
and sit home to watch them starve to death at leisure?

Like it or not, those are the choices for much of the third world, and you
can't do anything about it by simply insisting that we pay more for our
products to support a higher wage.

First, paying more is unliklely to filter down to those workers when there are
plenty of others still willing to work for the lower wage, and more
importantly, we in the developed world have a limited amount of discretionary
income to spend on non-essentials like picture frames. Paying more for some
items means we buy less of others, and those workers making the other products
go back to starving.

If your heart really bleeds for those third world families, then the best thing
for you to do would be to work hard, be productive and earn a lot of money,
then give up expensive hobbies like flying and use your increased earnings and
savings to buy a lot of picture frames at the market price.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Carl Ellis]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:ja2Cb.310866$Dw6.1046389@attbi_s02...
> > > If you do a web search you'll see reports of between 200,000 to
500,000
> > > popular votes favoring Gore and of course an argument of what that
> really
> > > means.
>
> Considering that an estimate 800K to 1.2M illegal aliens voted in the 2000
> election, those numbers are dubious. And that's not to mention the several
> states that had very quesionable vote totals...that all got lost in the
> Florida flare-up.
>
Do you have a reference for those numbers? I would believe some, but that
is awfully large.

Well, then let's talk about the flawed voter roll purges that occured in
both Texas and Florida.
http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html

Or the shenanigans in Tennessee
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=10589

Plenty of dirt to go around.

But .... the original assertion was that an overwhelming number of Americans
voted for Bush.
Simply visit http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm and look at the
tabular data, you'll see the results.
Consider the Nader votes anti-Bush and Buchanan anti-Gore, add up the other
candidates if you like in a similar fashion. Nowhere near overwhelming and
the results seem to slightly favor Gore.



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[Carl Ellis]

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message >...
> Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out. Trees can be
> replanted and in a matter of years you can't tell they were ever gone.
>
> We will not ever run out of oil. It will become more expensive but as it
> does the motivation to create an alternative will increase.
>
> That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause all
> materials to be used for the most efficient use.

I think there some confusion about what the "most efficient use"
means.

It does not mean in the most conservative manner, or in a manner which
maximizes its use or availability or longevity, nor does it mean for
the higher good or best use, whatever that may be.

It means in a manner which maximizes the profit derived from its use.

- Carl -

[Frank]

Wdtabor wrote:

> In article >, Frank > writes:
>
>>
>>As an example take the "sanctions" imposed on Iraq. Many scoff and say
>>they didn't work and they are right. But we pretty much guaranteed they
>>wouldn't work by not pressuring others to support them and turning a blind
>>eye when we knew they were being violated. In other words, we weren't as
>>committed to using our economic power as we are now to using our military.
>>As a result we lost much of our moral high ground.
>>
>
> How, exactly, does one pressure France?
>
> Short of standing on their border and shouting at them in German.
>
LOL! Thanks for the chuckle....

Pressure in the context above could take many forms, including incentives
for future consideration. Most everyone wants/gets something from us we
could leverage. Of course promoting climates of cooperation among would go
a long way to eliminating the need for pressure.

--
Frank....H

[R. Hubbell]

On 12 Dec 2003 14:53:05 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <QjaCb.182$pY.74@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Clearly we all aren't aware of the limitations, but talking about it is a
> >start.
> >Can you imagine selling your child forever to indentured servitude? That's
> >happening. Get your G.I. Joe for $4.95 but at least be aware that the low
> >price
> >bares another social cost.
> >
>
> But you must also keep in mind that NOT buying that $4.95 action figure also
> bears a social cost. Every choice has social costs for someone.


No you're wrong it fuels the fire. You're making it clear to parents that
selling off their children into indentured servitude is worthwhile. They
think let's have another kid, let's sell them off too. And on and on.


>
> And, the free market makes those choices better than your social ideology.
> Those third world laborers most willing to work for low wages are the ones most
> desparately in need of employment.

Social ideology? It's a fact, if you want proof pick up last months Nat. Geo.
I had a hard time reading the whole thing. It's pretty shocking.


>
> If you really want to help them, get rich, get government out of everyone
> else's way so they can get rich, balance environmental concerns with economic
> concerns, here and abroad, so we get even richer, and we can afford LOTS of
> picture frames and action figures.


What a simplistic view. What you're talking about won't ever happen, you're
counting on many people to do the right thing. Not going to happen.
"get government out of everyone else's way" is not a panacea.
I can afford lots of picture frames, they cannot afford to cut their forests
bare.

BTW speaking of "get government out of everyone else's way" Dubya has yet
to turn down, in 3 years, one single spending bill. How's that for getting
government out of the way.

>
> And don't impose your value system and environmental concerns on those in
> developing countries. To you, that mahogany rainforest in Sumatra might be most

That mohogany forest can be their lifeline if they manage it properly but they
aren't manaing it properly. They're clear cutting it. Extincting species
along the way.

> valuable as orangutan housing, but to the people who live there, that
> rainforest is capital they can convert into houses, schools and hospitals. If
> you want it saved for the orangutans, then make it worth their while by
> planning your vacation to include orangutan watching and spend lots of money
> there.


Again a simplistic view of the problem not tempered with enough facts.
See above.

>
> But don't tell them that their children have to starve because you won't
> purchase anything made of tropical hardwoods because the orangutans are more
> important than their children.

The idea is to tell them that if they manage their resources much more carefully
then in the long haul they will be better off.


R. Hubbell

>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article >, Frank > writes:

>
>Pressure in the context above could take many forms, including incentives
>for future consideration. Most everyone wants/gets something from us we
>could leverage. Of course promoting climates of cooperation among would go
>a long way to eliminating the need for pressure.
>

OK, so instead of putting pressure on France, how do you promote a climate of
cooperation with France, given that they have been explicit that they will
oppose us for the simple reason of beign a "counterweight" to US power and
prestige?

They have admitted they will oppose us, just to oppose us, to prevent us from
being successful as a world leader. There is no way to find cooperation with
that mindset.

I think they're just still ****ed that the international language of ATC is
English instead of French.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[R. Hubbell]

On 12 Dec 2003 14:53:06 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <QjaCb.182$pY.74@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >>
> >> You know, your platitudes are getting tiresome.
> >
> >Insults are a sign of a lack of an argument. Ad hominem.
> >
> >>
>
> You're misusing Ad Hominem.
>
> If I said, "Because Hubbell says X=1, X must equal something other than 1,"
> that would be an Ad Hominem argument, that the statement is false simply
> because of your advocacy of that position.
>
> Ad Hominem would not include the statement "Hubbell is insufficiently grounded
> in reality to determine the value of X." That would be a personal insult, but
> not an Ad Hominem argument.


Actually you've got it wrong. But it doesn't change the fact that people
without an argument or no further thing to say will resort to insults.

Or they may try to steer the discussion away from the topic.

R. Hubbell

>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <JtmCb.2429$pY.219@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>
>>
>> But don't tell them that their children have to starve because you won't
>> purchase anything made of tropical hardwoods because the orangutans are
>more
>> important than their children.
>
>The idea is to tell them that if they manage their resources much more
>carefully
>then in the long haul they will be better off.
>
>

If you're so sure you can manage that forest better than them for the long
haul, then buy the forrests from them and manage them yourself, or through some
like minded organization. If you're right, you'll make a big profit and retire
rich.

But don't tell them to literally bet their lives your way is better while
absorbing none of the risk yourself.

The market will determine who was right in the long haul.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Frank]

Wdtabor wrote:

> In article <Co2Cb.502462$HS4.3878194@attbi_s01>, "Jay Honeck"
> > writes:
>
>>
>>> How, exactly, does one pressure France?
>>>
>>> Short of standing on their border and shouting at them in German.
>>
>>On the contrary, I believe we have found the PERFECT method of pressuring
>>the French (and other so-called "allies") -- we have quite simply
>>disqualified them from bidding on any reconstruction contracts in Iraq.
>>
>>This has been "Big News" the last couple of days, as if it were somehow
>>revolutionary to exclude disloyal nations from reaping the benefits of our
>>labors. Personally, I call it "justice".
>>
>>Money talks.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not really disagreeing with the principle. We
are certainly within our rights to dole out the spoils of war as we see
fit.

On the other hand we may have missed an opportunity to mend some fences and
change the perception that the war was really about enriching our economic
interests. Money talks indeed.

Regardless of whether it was the best policy choice or not, they have
botched it in the way it was handled. The timing was incredibly bad, coming
on the heels of another Halliburton scandal. And by trying to circumvent
our own trade aggreements in such a transparent manner we've negated most
of our own credibilty.

Policies driven by vindictiveness will hurt us more than help us. We ought
to above that sort of thing. Apparently we are not a superpower when it
comes to statesmanship.

> Expect Bush to let them bid after they forgive all or part of the Iraqi
> debt.
>
> Which should be called the Baathist debt since the Iraqi's never benefited
> from it, and they should be collecting it from Saddam.
>
> But still, when they make the cocession of forgiving that debt, Bush will
> let them in .

It might have worked that way, but I fear both sides have become entrenched
in childish contrariety.


--
Frank....H

[Gig Giacona]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:GZ9Cb.177$pY.171@fed1read04...
Check out
> the Toyota Prius. They're selling like hotcakes even with high tariffs.
>
> >
>GIG Wrote
> > That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause
all
> > materials to be used for the most efficient use.
>
>
> Dream on. :)

Your argument proves my point. If it becomes important enough the market
will deal with the problem. In this case the Toyota Prius. But I'd be
willing to bet they are not out selling SUVs.

[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
om...
> "Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
>...
> > Name one thing, of which, the planet has ever run out. Trees can be
> > replanted and in a matter of years you can't tell they were ever gone.
> >
> > We will not ever run out of oil. It will become more expensive but as it
> > does the motivation to create an alternative will increase.
> >
> > That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause
all
> > materials to be used for the most efficient use.
>
> I think there some confusion about what the "most efficient use"
> means.
>
> It does not mean in the most conservative manner, or in a manner which
> maximizes its use or availability or longevity, nor does it mean for
> the higher good or best use, whatever that may be.
>
> It means in a manner which maximizes the profit derived from its use.
>
> - Carl -


There is no confusion on my part you are exactly right.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that there will
> never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is sufficient
> demand.

No way. They only grow to marketable size and quality when surrounded by other
trees at least 60 feet tall. In other words, you would have to restore most of
the Cuban rainforests to restore the mahoganies. About 500 years *after* you
restore those forests, you can harvest your first Cuban mahogany.

There are similar problems with the pines. A tree growing up in a mature forest
grows slowly and keeps branches only near the top. This is what is meant by the
term "old growth tree". Such a tree is very hard for its species, has growth
rings that are closely spaced, and has very few knots. A pine grown this way
also takes over 60 years to reach marketable size. Commercially grown pines are
planted all at the same time. They get lots of sunlight and develop dense lower
branches. As the trees mature, the lower branches lose the light and die. Every
place there was a branch, there's a knot, and these knots go nearly to the
heart of the tree. The tree reaches marketable size in 20 years, but the wood is
relatively soft, the growth rings are far apart, and it's full of knots. As a
result of these defects, the stuff is far less stable (more prone to warp), and
larger timbers must be used to provide the support of older wood.

What's worse, the lumber companies clear-cut stands of hardwoods and replant
pines. There are still decent quantities of cherry, but American walnut will
probably be extinct within your lifetime. As I said, nobody is going to farm a
tree that takes 160 years or more to reach marketable size.

As far as southern pine is concerned, yes, your grandchildren could have the old
quality wood. All you have to do is use harvesting techniques that cost five
times as much as clear-cutting and harvest about 1/3 of the wood that Georgia
Kraft would harvest off the same acreage. Possible, yes. But you're an idiot if
you think it will ever happen.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Carl Ellis]

> Gig Giacona wrote:
> >
> > And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that there will
> > never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is sufficient
> > demand.
>


Yes, this is an argument that is often made, the market will save us all
with advances in technology and science and efficiency. The market serves
itself, what is good for the market is not necessarily good for the public.
Their interests may intersect but don't bet the farm on it.

- Carl -



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[Jay Honeck]

> Consider the Nader votes anti-Bush and Buchanan anti-Gore, add up the
other
> candidates if you like in a similar fashion. Nowhere near overwhelming
and
> the results seem to slightly favor Gore.

I call it as I see it. I don't care HOW many brainless knee-jerk Democrat
voter-drones live in the highest-population-density-inner-city cesspools --
this geographic map of the election results tells the tale:
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> well, there is international law and there are international treaties.
> ahhh, what the heck.

Heh.

The best line of the week was when President Bush, upon being told this same
line of bull, remarked dryly "International law? I better all my lawyer..."
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 03:08:29 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> well, there is international law and there are international treaties.
>> ahhh, what the heck.
>
>Heh.
>
>The best line of the week was when President Bush, upon being told this same
>line of bull, remarked dryly "International law? I better all my lawyer..."

ya mean this works both ways? as the USA obviously ignores international
law (as so often [sic!]) you wouldn't be insulted when the "rest" of the
world treats you as you deserve, err, I mean, ignoring intl. law?

Jay, apply for a passport and travel abroad. You'll be surprised (if you
ever can open your eyes and mind).

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "G.R. Patterson III"
> writes:

>Gig Giacona wrote:
>>
>> And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that there will
>> never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is sufficient
>> demand.
>
>No way. They only grow to marketable size and quality when surrounded by
>other
>trees at least 60 feet tall. In other words, you would have to restore most
>of
>the Cuban rainforests to restore the mahoganies. About 500 years *after* you
>restore those forests, you can harvest your first Cuban mahogany.
>

OK, the market will not provide real Cuban mahogany in our lifetimes, but if
the demand is there, it will provide some other material that will fill that
niche, in all but some very small esthetic differences.

Same is true for the ancient cypress lumber harvested in Louisiana. And lots of
other things that can only grow to maturity in a stone age economy.

The real questin is "Would you prefer the economic and technological realities
that existed before the Cuban Mahogany was harvested over he world today?"

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Carl Ellis]

"> I call it as I see it. I don't care HOW many brainless knee-jerk
Democrat
> voter-drones live in the highest-population-density-inner-city
cesspools --
> this geographic map of the election results tells the tale:
> http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif

Jay,

I am genuinely interested, what data on this map supports your assertion?

- Carl -



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[Gary L. Drescher]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
>
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ja2Cb.310866$Dw6.1046389@attbi_s02...
>>C'mon, the USA Today election map at
>>http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif clearly shows that the
country
>>OVERWHELMINGLY supported Bush.
>> ....
>
> I am genuinely interested, what data on this map supports your assertion?

Jay has apparently managed to convince himself that the extent of a
candidate's mandate is better measured by the number of *acres* that voted
for the candidate than by the number of *people* that voted for the
candidate. When he stays the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush, he's
referring to the country's landmass rather than its population.

--Gary

[Gary L. Drescher]

> When he stays the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush, he's

er, "stays" should be "says"

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:23:28 GMT, Gary L. Drescher wrote:

>Jay has apparently managed to convince himself that the extent of a
>candidate's mandate is better measured by the number of *acres* that voted
>for the candidate than by the number of *people* that voted for the
>candidate. When he stays the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush, he's
>referring to the country's landmass rather than its population.
>

"$%&$§!!!!
couldn't be brought down to 4 lines ... would be a great signature :-)

>--Gary

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[R. Hubbell]

On 12 Dec 2003 17:35:20 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <JtmCb.2429$pY.219@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >>
> >> But don't tell them that their children have to starve because you won't
> >> purchase anything made of tropical hardwoods because the orangutans are
> >more
> >> important than their children.
> >
> >The idea is to tell them that if they manage their resources much more
> >carefully
> >then in the long haul they will be better off.
> >
> >
>
> If you're so sure you can manage that forest better than them for the long
> haul, then buy the forrests from them and manage them yourself, or through some
> like minded organization. If you're right, you'll make a big profit and retire
> rich.

We would need to show them that managing their forest themselves is key.
Give people responsibiliy and they'll become responsible.

BTW retiring rich or poor is not for me. Seen too many people fall of the radar
forever after retiring. But yeah helping other countries manage their natural
resources wouldn't certainly be a welcome challenge for me. That's a great
idea. A steward for the planet.

>
> But don't tell them to literally bet their lives your way is better while
> absorbing none of the risk yourself.

They've already bet their lives on the current scheme and if they don't
turn back they will lose.


>
> The market will determine who was right in the long haul.

Maybe you have not noticed the "market" that you oversimplyfyingly refer to
has decided. It won't work, it doesn't work. But from your point of view
it seems to work great. You get your $5 dollar picture frame. The get a
barren landscape devoid of life and not useful to anyone.

R. Hubbell



>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[R. Hubbell]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:20:22 -0600 "Gig Giacona" > wrote:

>
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> news:GZ9Cb.177$pY.171@fed1read04...
> Check out
> > the Toyota Prius. They're selling like hotcakes even with high tariffs.
> >
> > >
> >GIG Wrote
> > > That is what an free market does. Left alone a free market will cause
> all
> > > materials to be used for the most efficient use.
> >
> >
> > Dream on. :)
>
> Your argument proves my point. If it becomes important enough the market
> will deal with the problem. In this case the Toyota Prius. But I'd be
> willing to bet they are not out selling SUVs.


Now I've got you! Mooohahaha. :) SUVs have been selling like hot cakes
because of at least two loopholes in the laws. One is how they are classified
and the other is a huge tax-break for businesses that buy them (a weight thing)

The "market" you lovingly cling to is once again artificially buoyed up
because it's rivets are popping and it's long in the tooth and creaking and
it's past TBO and it's ready to rest in Davey Jones' locker and it's ready
to go Tango Uniform and ....


Now the Prius has huge tariffs imposed by the US govt. and their are no
loopholes. (although I think in some states the state subsidizes a portion
of the cost, sort of like undoing the federally imposed tariffs)

>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Wdtabor wrote:
>
> OK, the market will not provide real Cuban mahogany in our lifetimes, but if
> the demand is there, it will provide some other material that will fill that
> niche, in all but some very small esthetic differences.

Right. It's nonsense to say that the market will provide if the demand is there.
What the market does is to manipulate the demand. The market says "You don't
*really* want *that*. Here's what you *really* want."

As far as a material that comes close to Cuban mahogany "in all but some very
small esthetic differences", you're dreaming. There's nothing on Earth that's
close. I expect there will be about the time someone discovers the philosopher's
stone.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "G.R. Patterson III"
> writes:

>Wdtabor wrote:
>>
>> OK, the market will not provide real Cuban mahogany in our lifetimes, but
>if
>> the demand is there, it will provide some other material that will fill
>that
>> niche, in all but some very small esthetic differences.
>
>Right. It's nonsense to say that the market will provide if the demand is
>there.
>What the market does is to manipulate the demand. The market says "You don't
>*really* want *that*. Here's what you *really* want."
>
Actually, what it says is that if you *really* want that, it will cost you
$$$$$. But if that is too much, we can provide this instead at $$$.

>As far as a material that comes close to Cuban mahogany "in all but some very
>small esthetic differences", you're dreaming. There's nothing on Earth that's
>close. I expect there will be about the time someone discovers the
>philosopher's
>stone.

I have life a long and happy life without knowingly owning anything made of
Cuban Mahogany, though I have some items made of other nice woods. There may be
some things about the CM that are in some small way superior, but nothing I
cannot pass up out of respect for the owner's of those forrests rights to use
their resources as they see fit.

No doubt there are some Cubans who could think of better uses for the resources
consumed to make your Maule. We don't let them deny you that choice either.

That mutual respect for each other's freedom is more precious than the
difference in the woods.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <jWHCb.382382$ao4.1274100@attbi_s51>, "Gary L. Drescher"
> writes:

>
>Jay has apparently managed to convince himself that the extent of a
>candidate's mandate is better measured by the number of *acres* that voted
>for the candidate than by the number of *people* that voted for the
>candidate. When he stays the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush, he's
>referring to the country's landmass rather than its population.
>

Actually, Jay's map does tell us a great deal about the vote.

Those areas that produce more than they consume and pay more in taxes than they
receive in federal funds voted for Bush and those that suck at the Federal teat
voted for Gore.

Big surprise.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <atICb.2786$pY.316@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>>
>> If you're so sure you can manage that forest better than them for the long
>> haul, then buy the forrests from them and manage them yourself, or through
>some
>> like minded organization. If you're right, you'll make a big profit and
>retire
>> rich.
>
>We would need to show them that managing their forest themselves is key.
>Give people responsibiliy and they'll become responsible.
>

In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property.
Traditionally, the way that is done is to conquer and colonize the land those
foolish and ignorant savages live on and take control of their lives away from
them. Ask the British about that, they have more experience at it than us.

>BTW retiring rich or poor is not for me. Seen too many people fall of the
>radar
>forever after retiring. But yeah helping other countries manage their
>natural
>resources wouldn't certainly be a welcome challenge for me. That's a great
>idea. A steward for the planet.
>

And in return for your wise and benevolent stewardship, all you ask is absolute
power over the lives and property of others.

>>
>> But don't tell them to literally bet their lives your way is better while
>> absorbing none of the risk yourself.
>
>They've already bet their lives on the current scheme and if they don't
>turn back they will lose.
>
Why, it worked for us?

We plundered the capital of the land and forrest to get our start and built on
that a nation that feeds and employs the world.

>
>>
>> The market will determine who was right in the long haul.
>
>Maybe you have not noticed the "market" that you oversimplyfyingly refer to
>has decided. It won't work, it doesn't work. But from your point of view
>it seems to work great. You get your $5 dollar picture frame. The get a
>barren landscape devoid of life and not useful to anyone.
>

They get a start toward what we have.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Carl Ellis]

>
> Actually, Jay's map does tell us a great deal about the vote.
>
> Those areas that produce more than they consume and pay more in taxes than
they
> receive in federal funds voted for Bush and those that suck at the Federal
teat
> voted for Gore.
>
> Big surprise.
>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

A strikingly bold statement backed by vague generalities.

- Carl -


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[Martin Hotze]

On 13 Dec 2003 22:41:09 GMT, Wdtabor wrote:

>>They've already bet their lives on the current scheme and if they don't
>>turn back they will lose.
>>
>Why, it worked for us?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>We plundered the capital of the land and forrest to get our start and built on
>that a nation that feeds and employs the world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Man, are you weired.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Gary L. Drescher]

"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> In article <jWHCb.382382$ao4.1274100@attbi_s51>, "Gary L. Drescher"
> > writes:
> >
> >Jay has apparently managed to convince himself that the extent of a
> >candidate's mandate is better measured by the number of *acres* that
voted
> >for the candidate than by the number of *people* that voted for the
> >candidate. When he says the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush,
he's
> >referring to the country's landmass rather than its population.
>
> Actually, Jay's map does tell us a great deal about the vote.

Yes, but not what he claims it tells us.

> Those areas that produce more than they consume and pay more in taxes than
they
> receive in federal funds voted for Bush and those that suck at the Federal
teat
> voted for Gore.

Yeah right. Seattle, New York, Boston, most of New England, and the coast
of California are notoriously unproductive areas. Why, the national economy
would scarcely notice if those places just disappeared.

[Jay Honeck]

> Actually, Jay's map does tell us a great deal about the vote.

First, it's not "Jay's map" -- it was published by USA Today.

> >Jay has apparently managed to convince himself that the extent of a
> >candidate's mandate is better measured by the number of *acres* that
voted
> >for the candidate than by the number of *people* that voted for the
> >candidate. When he stays the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush,
he's
> >referring to the country's landmass rather than its population.

The map shows many things. First, the vast majority of citizens with
old-fashioned American values voted for Bush. Having worked and lived in big
cities for the majority of my life, I can vouch for the fact that very
little of traditional America survives in the mindless, soulless wasteland
of the inner cities. The fact that these areas recurrently (and
dim-wittedly) vote for any Democrat that runs means little to me. Or to the
Electoral College. Or to the Supreme Court.

The vast majority of productive Americans voted for Bush.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[R. Hubbell]

On 13 Dec 2003 22:41:09 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <atICb.2786$pY.316@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >>
> >> If you're so sure you can manage that forest better than them for the long
> >> haul, then buy the forrests from them and manage them yourself, or through
> >some
> >> like minded organization. If you're right, you'll make a big profit and
> >retire
> >> rich.
> >
> >We would need to show them that managing their forest themselves is key.
> >Give people responsibiliy and they'll become responsible.
> >
>
> In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property.


No, not in other words, in those words. We teach them. You know
"give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him, he eats for a lifetime...."
Maybe useful to add... Teach him to manage the fishery and his children and
their children eat and so on and on.

> Traditionally, the way that is done is to conquer and colonize the land those
> foolish and ignorant savages live on and take control of their lives away from
> them. Ask the British about that, they have more experience at it than us.

Ok, I see now you're caught up in traditions. Well traditions don't fit anymore.

>
> >BTW retiring rich or poor is not for me. Seen too many people fall of the
> >radar
> >forever after retiring. But yeah helping other countries manage their
> >natural
> >resources wouldn't certainly be a welcome challenge for me. That's a great



*** Actually I meant "would certainly be a welcome challenge for me." ***



> >idea. A steward for the planet.
> >
>
> And in return for your wise and benevolent stewardship, all you ask is absolute
> power over the lives and property of others.

I ask for nothing in return, only the satisfaction of helping them achieve
ecological and economical balance. Costa Rica is a great example of that
right now.


>
> >>
> >> But don't tell them to literally bet their lives your way is better while
> >> absorbing none of the risk yourself.
> >
> >They've already bet their lives on the current scheme and if they don't
> >turn back they will lose.
> >
> Why, it worked for us?

But has it? It hasn't been long enough to tell for sure. In fact I think it's
long of tooth. Why else would we spend 85 billion in Iraq? Got to keep the
money moving through the economy somehow. A jobless recovery indeed. It's
jobless in the states but there'll be plenty of jobs in Iraq.


>
> We plundered the capital of the land and forrest to get our start and built on
> that a nation that feeds and employs the world.

Interesting view point. Lucklily there are enough people that care about the
land that we just might be able to save some of the ecosystem.

>
> >
> >>
> >> The market will determine who was right in the long haul.
> >
> >Maybe you have not noticed the "market" that you oversimplyfyingly refer to
> >has decided. It won't work, it doesn't work. But from your point of view
> >it seems to work great. You get your $5 dollar picture frame. The get a
> >barren landscape devoid of life and not useful to anyone.
> >
>
> They get a start toward what we have.


You mean the power to consume the world's resources at an alarming rate?
Not a very fulfilling goal.

So they can in turn exploit some other people of their natural resources
and culture? It's a cycle that they need to learn is not sustainable.
We should show them.


R. Hubbell

>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[R. Hubbell]

On 13 Dec 2003 22:41:09 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <jWHCb.382382$ao4.1274100@attbi_s51>, "Gary L. Drescher"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Jay has apparently managed to convince himself that the extent of a
> >candidate's mandate is better measured by the number of *acres* that voted
> >for the candidate than by the number of *people* that voted for the
> >candidate. When he stays the "country" overwhelmingly supported Bush, he's
> >referring to the country's landmass rather than its population.
> >
>
> Actually, Jay's map does tell us a great deal about the vote.
>
> Those areas that produce more than they consume and pay more in taxes than they
> receive in federal funds voted for Bush and those that suck at the Federal teat
> voted for Gore.

That's complete nonsense. Nice try. :)

Don't forget Dubya has yet to turn down a spending bill in his 3 years in office.
That sure doesn't jibe with your contention.

R. Hubbell

>
> Big surprise.
>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <oSTCb.3979$pY.3084@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>> In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property.
>
>
>No, not in other words, in those words. We teach them. You know
>"give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him, he eats for a lifetime...."
>Maybe useful to add... Teach him to manage the fishery and his children and
>their children eat and so on and on.
>

Wow! It must be nice to be so sure of your superiority.

But even if that were true, what gives you the right to direct their lives?

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <GmOCb.384252$ao4.1281670@attbi_s51>, "Gary L. Drescher"
> writes:

>> Those areas that produce more than they consume and pay more in taxes than
>they
>> receive in federal funds voted for Bush and those that suck at the Federal
>teat
>> voted for Gore.
>
>Yeah right. Seattle, New York, Boston, most of New England, and the coast
>of California are notoriously unproductive areas. Why, the national economy
>would scarcely notice if those places just disappeared.
>
>

What economic activity those cities have is the result of their being ports
that get their cut by shipping what the rest of the nation produces. They
produce very little and exist on banking, shipping and commerce of the goods
grown and produced elsewhere.

If they disappeared tomorrow, fell off into the sea, we would build new ports
and go on. If, instead, they were cut off from the rest of of the country,
people would be starving within a week.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Gary L. Drescher]

"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> In article <GmOCb.384252$ao4.1281670@attbi_s51>, "Gary L. Drescher"
> > writes:
>
> >> Those areas that produce more than they consume and pay more in taxes
than
> >they
> >> receive in federal funds voted for Bush and those that suck at the
Federal
> >teat
> >> voted for Gore.
> >
> >Yeah right. Seattle, New York, Boston, most of New England, and the
coast
> >of California are notoriously unproductive areas. Why, the national
economy
> >would scarcely notice if those places just disappeared.
>
> What economic activity those cities have is the result of their being
ports
> that get their cut by shipping what the rest of the nation produces. They
> produce very little and exist on banking, shipping and commerce of the
goods
> grown and produced elsewhere.

Uh, right. Banking, shipping and commerce are not productive activities.
Unlike farming, those endeavors just take advantage of nearby natural
resources. And the New England and West Coast's computer industry and
biotechnology industry (and the massive educational infrastructure needed to
support high tech) are not productive or economically significant.

It's astonishing what lengths some folks go to in order to try to make
reality fit their worldview.

--Gary

[Jay Honeck]

> Don't forget Dubya has yet to turn down a spending bill in his 3 years in
office.
> That sure doesn't jibe with your contention.

Well, now you're one a different subject entirely -- and one in which I
TOTALLY agree with you.

Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my
vote.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wdtabor]

>
>Well, now you're one a different subject entirely -- and one in which I
>TOTALLY agree with you.
>
>Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my
>vote.

To whom?

I am also disappointed that Bush has not held the line on domestic spending,
but is there any reason to believe that Dean will spend any less?

I will be speaking to Gary Nolan next weekend, the most likely Libertarian
candidate, but he is so far out on the War on Terror that I cannot support him
unless he moderates on that issue.

Don


--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose
my
> vote.

Mine, too, for several reasons. But who ya gonna vote for next time?
Dean? Ick!
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Carl Ellis]

> The map shows many things. First, the vast majority of citizens with
> old-fashioned American values voted for Bush.

Jay, once again. Other than there being more red than blue, how does this
map support that? You have taken an opinion and projected it onto data
which shows something else entirely. A true statement about that map
would be, a majority (not necessarily vast) of voters in a majority of
counties voted for Bush, no more, no less.



> Having worked and lived in big
> cities for the majority of my life, I can vouch for the fact that very
> little of traditional America survives in the mindless, soulless wasteland
> of the inner cities. The fact that these areas recurrently (and
> dim-wittedly) vote for any Democrat that runs means little to me. Or to
the
> Electoral College. Or to the Supreme Court.
>
> The vast majority of productive Americans voted for Bush.

Also, a conclusion that could be drawn from your observation is that you
believe that there are no Democrats in "middle America".

I have asked for facts, you have offered opinion. I expected more.

- Carl -

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[G.R. Patterson III]

Wdtabor wrote:
>
> >What the market does is to manipulate the demand. The market says "You don't
> >*really* want *that*. Here's what you *really* want."
> >
> Actually, what it says is that if you *really* want that, it will cost you
> $$$$$. But if that is too much, we can provide this instead at $$$.

Try to locate 1/2" plywood at any price in the U.S. Then take a look at how much
money the lumber industry spent lobbying Congress for the rules that prevent
Canadian companies from selling it to us. And if you don't think there's a
demand for it, bring the subject up in home repair and woodworking groups.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my
> vote.

Same here. If there's any decent alternative. So far, I don't see one.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:ja2Cb.310866$Dw6.1046389@attbi_s02...
> > > > If you do a web search you'll see reports of between 200,000 to
> 500,000
> > > > popular votes favoring Gore and of course an argument of what that
> > really
> > > > means.
> >
> > Considering that an estimate 800K to 1.2M illegal aliens voted in the
2000
> > election, those numbers are dubious. And that's not to mention the
several
> > states that had very quesionable vote totals...that all got lost in the
> > Florida flare-up.
> >
> Do you have a reference for those numbers? I would believe some, but that
> is awfully large.

It was derived from the numbers of illegals that apply for services divided
by high/low estimates from INS. I don't remember the exact source, but it
came out in May, 2001.

AAMOF, my M-I-L, who is 88, has voted in every election since 1936, after
coming over from Scotland when she was nine yers old, and has NEVER become a
US citizen (as she's now finding out the hard way as she applies for
assisted living for seniors).


> Well, then let's talk about the flawed voter roll purges that occured in
> both Texas and Florida.
> http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html

Really credible source, Salon is.

> Or the shenanigans in Tennessee
> http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=10589

UH HUH! Sounds like what Jessie Jackson was screeching about in Florida.

>
> Plenty of dirt to go around.

Better find something better than anecdote for sources.

>
> But .... the original assertion was that an overwhelming number of
Americans
> voted for Bush.
> Simply visit http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm and look at
the
> tabular data, you'll see the results.

The argument is AMERICANS...and that implies ONCE, LIVING, NOT A FELON...

> Consider the Nader votes anti-Bush and Buchanan anti-Gore, add up the
other
> candidates if you like in a similar fashion. Nowhere near overwhelming
and
> the results seem to slightly favor Gore.
>
I remember that in the first hours of the election returns Bush had a 54-46%
lead over Gore (at about the 35-45% of votes cast). Considering that rural
areas, Bush's strong points, are LATER in getting their numbers in,
something funky happened.

Recall the election messes that occurred in Pennsylvania, Iowa, Wisconsin,
Oregon, New Mexico, New York.

They never did look into the counties that had HUGH turnouts by dead people,
including several counties that Gore won that were very typical Bush
territory...even more votes cast than people living there (New York and
Penn.).

[R. Hubbell]

On 14 Dec 2003 11:48:12 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <oSTCb.3979$pY.3084@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >> In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property.
> >
> >
> >No, not in other words, in those words. We teach them. You know
> >"give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him, he eats for a lifetime...."
> >Maybe useful to add... Teach him to manage the fishery and his children and
> >their children eat and so on and on.
> >
>
> Wow! It must be nice to be so sure of your superiority.
>
> But even if that were true, what gives you the right to direct their lives?


I guess you're done since you don't have any counterpoint.


R. Hubbell

>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Carl Ellis]

>
> It was derived from the numbers of illegals that apply for services
divided
> by high/low estimates from INS. I don't remember the exact source, but it
> came out in May, 2001.
>
> AAMOF, my M-I-L, who is 88, has voted in every election since 1936, after
> coming over from Scotland when she was nine yers old, and has NEVER become
a
> US citizen (as she's now finding out the hard way as she applies for
> assisted living for seniors).
>

Until you have a reference and data it's supposition and unproven. It's a
pretty far stretch from applying for services to voting.


>
> > Well, then let's talk about the flawed voter roll purges that occured in
> > both Texas and Florida.
> > http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html
>
> Really credible source, Salon is.

Ok here are more references.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/3594763.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A99749-2001May30?language=printer
http://www.examiner.com/opinion/default.jsp?story=OPeditorial0522w


>
> The argument is AMERICANS...and that implies ONCE, LIVING, NOT A FELON...

A felony conviction does not permenantly remove your right to vote. If it
were I'm sure
Admiral Poindexter would be very disappointed. If you read the article you
would see that it's not just an issue with felons, it's also just the plain
sloppy job the company did, capturing people who had no conviction. Their
selection algorithm was just plain flawed.

> I remember that in the first hours of the election returns Bush had a
54-46%
> lead over Gore (at about the 35-45% of votes cast). Considering that rural
> areas, Bush's strong points, are LATER in getting their numbers in,
> something funky happened.

Again, just conjecture.

>
> They never did look into the counties that had HUGH turnouts by dead
people,

Data please.

> including several counties that Gore won that were very typical Bush
> territory

Not inconceivable.

> even more votes cast than people living there (New York and
> Penn.).
>

Live in one county, work and vote in another. References?





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[G.R. Patterson III]

Carl Ellis wrote:
>
> Live in one county, work and vote in another.

Everywhere I've lived, that was illegal.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "G.R. Patterson III"
> writes:

>Wdtabor wrote:
>>
>> >What the market does is to manipulate the demand. The market says "You
>don't
>> >*really* want *that*. Here's what you *really* want."
>> >
>> Actually, what it says is that if you *really* want that, it will cost you
>> $$$$$. But if that is too much, we can provide this instead at $$$.
>
>Try to locate 1/2" plywood at any price in the U.S. Then take a look at how
>much
>money the lumber industry spent lobbying Congress for the rules that prevent
>Canadian companies from selling it to us. And if you don't think there's a
>demand for it, bring the subject up in home repair and woodworking groups.
>

If you're looking for me to support import restrictions to protect domestic
industries, you'll be disappointed.

But that says nothing about the free market. On the contrary, unholy alliances
betwen industry and government to suppress free trade are one of the things we
Libertarians are most opposed to.

A free market must be free. And in the long run, it always punishes those who
try to interfere with it. Whatever jobs import restrictions save in one
industry are more than offset by jobs lost somewhere else because of higher
costs and pinched supplies.

So, again, the free market always wins, but we get slapped around a bit when we
try to outsmart it.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Wdtabor]

In article <qM0Db.5251$pY.2269@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> writes:

>On 14 Dec 2003 11:48:12 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:
>
>> In article <oSTCb.3979$pY.3084@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
>> > writes:
>>
>> >> In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property.
>> >
>> >
>> >No, not in other words, in those words. We teach them. You know
>> >"give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him, he eats for a
>lifetime...."
>> >Maybe useful to add... Teach him to manage the fishery and his children
>and
>> >their children eat and so on and on.
>> >
>>
>> Wow! It must be nice to be so sure of your superiority.
>>
>> But even if that were true, what gives you the right to direct their lives?
>
>
>
>I guess you're done since you don't have any counterpoint.
>

Sure I did, it just went over your arrogant head.

Your priorities for their land and lives are not theirs. You don't live there
and you bear no risk if your Pollyanna ideas of land use fail, but their
children die if they accept your advice and it is wrong.

So, unless you can, in some way, underwrite your plans for their resources and
lives, you have no right to impose your vision of land use on them.

So long as you do not share the risks of failure, you have no right to make
their choices for them.

So, as I said before, if you think you can manage their land better than they
can, organize a consortium of like minded individuals and BUY their land from
them so that you bear the risk if your ideas don't work instead of them.
Otherwise, I'm sure if they want your enlightened advice, they can ask for it.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Carl Ellis]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Carl Ellis wrote:
> >
> > Live in one county, work and vote in another.
>
> Everywhere I've lived, that was illegal.
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."


The working or the voting 8-).

I believe that in Oregon the out of district vote is treated like an
absentee vote. It is put aside, then residency is verified, then the vote
is counted. Of course you can't vote on local issues if you do this.

But I am not 100% positive on this.

- Carl -


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[Carl Ellis]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Carl Ellis wrote:
> > >
> > > Live in one county, work and vote in another.
> >
> > Everywhere I've lived, that was illegal.
> >
> > George Patterson
> > Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
> said is
> > "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."
>
>
> The working or the voting 8-).
>
> I believe that in Oregon the out of district vote is treated like an
> absentee vote. It is put aside, then residency is verified, then the vote
> is counted. Of course you can't vote on local issues if you do this.
>
> But I am not 100% positive on this.
>
> - Carl -
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003
>
>

Looks like it's possible in Oregon. There doesn't seem to be any rule
for verifying the reason for the absence from your county of residence. In
practice this looks like it it treated like a normal absentee ballot for
which no justification is required either.
http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/253.html
253.135 Special absent elector procedures. (1) An elector who, on the day of
an election, will be absent from the county in which the elector is
registered may vote at the elections office of any county clerk or at any
polling site in this state.

(2) An elector voting under this section shall complete and sign a voter
registration card.

(3) The elector shall insert the ballot into a small envelope provided by
the election board and then shall insert the small envelope into a larger
envelope. The larger envelope shall be deposited into the ballot box.

(4) A ballot cast under this section shall be forwarded to the county clerk
of the county in which the elector resides not later than the eighth day
after the election. The ballot shall be counted in the county in which the
elector resides if the elector is qualified to vote in that county. A vote
shall be counted only if the elector is qualified to vote for the particular
office or on the measure.


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[Jay Honeck]

> > Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my
vote.
>
> Mine, too, for several reasons. But who ya gonna vote for next time?
> Dean? Ick!

Good point. At this time, I see no viable alternative to GW.

And with today's momentous capture of Saddam, Bush is looking more and more
like a sure thing in 2004.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Eclipsme]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:SE3Db.550532$Fm2.519490@attbi_s04...
> > > Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose
my
> vote.
> >
> > Mine, too, for several reasons. But who ya gonna vote for next time?
> > Dean? Ick!
>
> Good point. At this time, I see no viable alternative to GW.
>
> And with today's momentous capture of Saddam, Bush is looking more and
more
> like a sure thing in 2004.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

I belong to the ABBA party.
Anybody But Bush Again! lol

Dean??? OK, if I have to...

Harvey

[R. Hubbell]

On 14 Dec 2003 18:32:45 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <qM0Db.5251$pY.2269@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > writes:
>
> >On 14 Dec 2003 11:48:12 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <oSTCb.3979$pY.3084@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> >> > writes:
> >>
> >> >> In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >No, not in other words, in those words. We teach them. You know
> >> >"give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him, he eats for a
> >lifetime...."
> >> >Maybe useful to add... Teach him to manage the fishery and his children
> >and
> >> >their children eat and so on and on.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Wow! It must be nice to be so sure of your superiority.
> >>
> >> But even if that were true, what gives you the right to direct their lives?
> >
> >
> >
> >I guess you're done since you don't have any counterpoint.
> >
>
> Sure I did, it just went over your arrogant head.


As I said before name calling means the argument is over. You had your chance.
And as you have done I wil repeat what I've said before.

>
> Your priorities for their land and lives are not theirs. You don't live there
> and you bear no risk if your Pollyanna ideas of land use fail, but their

Hardly "pollyanna", it's working in Gabon and it's working in Costa Rica and
elsewhere. IT's not working where we're buying $5 picture frames.


> children die if they accept your advice and it is wrong.

The children are dying with the current model.


>
> So, unless you can, in some way, underwrite your plans for their resources and
> lives, you have no right to impose your vision of land use on them.

It's not my plan it's a plan that's working. It has to be the one that they
see has an end game instead of the current game which does not.


>
> So long as you do not share the risks of failure, you have no right to make
> their choices for them.

It's not my choice we only have to show them that the current approach won't
last for them. Once the resources are depleted that's it. Manage and nurture
it and it will last for generations.

We all share the risks of failure, but you don't see that for some reason.
A narrow world view perhaps.

>
> So, as I said before, if you think you can manage their land better than they
> can, organize a consortium of like minded individuals and BUY their land from
> them so that you bear the risk if your ideas don't work instead of them.
> Otherwise, I'm sure if they want your enlightened advice, they can ask for it.


They only need to look at successful land management that doesn't require selling
picture frames.


R. Hubbell

>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[leslie]

G.R. Patterson III ) wrote:
:
:
: Jay Honeck wrote:
: >
: > Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my
: > vote.
:
: Same here. If there's any decent alternative. So far, I don't see one.
:

The Property Party (Democrats & Republicans) has sworn its allegiance
to India, Inc....

---------------<<<>>>---------------
JOB DESTRUCTION NEWSLETTER
by Rob Sanchez
www.ZaZona.com
---------------<<<>>>---------------

President Bush isn't a viable option for President if you want to save
American jobs. Bush supports unlimited H-1B visas, unlimited
guest-worker visas for blue-collar workers, and he recently proved that
he won't oppose the WTO's free-trade mandates to destroy our steel
industry. Simply put, Bush will continue to allow our industries to be
offshored and he will support the importation of cheap foreign labor to
take our jobs.

The logical alternative would be to vote for a Democrat for President,
but don't rush to their support quite yet! That's because every single
major candidate is kowtowing to India.

Democrats like the smell of Rupees as much as the Dollar. They recently
pledged their allegiance to India by writing letters of commitment to
the interests of USINPAC. You can see shortened versions of their
letters below, and there are links so that you can read their entire
letters of betrayal to the American workers who will be voting for
them. Preceding their letter summaries is an email that was sent out by
Sanjay Puri, the Executive Director of USINPAC. Sanjay is so proud of
the fact that he has all the major candidates under his thumb he
announced it to USINPAC members on 12/1/2003 via email.

The U.S. India Political Action Committee, or USINPAC, was formed by
Indian American owned IT businesses in order to use their political
clout to enhance offshoring to India, and of course to promote an
easing of any restrictions that H-1B and L-1 visas contain. They focus
on obtaining lucrative US government contracts.

USINPAC is registered with the Federal Election Commission in the state
of Virginia
see (http://www.fec.gov/).

USINPAC claims that they are a bunch of rich Indian Americans. They say
this so that they can get registered as a Political Action Committee,
but even on their own website they admit that their ties to India are
very strong. This organization is as smelly as curry-encrusted 2-Rupee
bill!

http://www.usinpac.com/240903_nr.asp

The US India Political Action Committee (USINPAC) is a
national, bipartisan political action committee of the
Indian American community. Based in Washington, DC, USINPAC
is a strong and clear voice on Capitol Hill. USINPAC's
mission is to impact policy on issues of concern to the
Indian American community.


Commending the efforts, and achievements of USINPAC, in the
short span of one year since its founding, the Prime Minister
promised support from Indian policy makers, and invited and
welcomed a USINPAC delegation to India in January 2004 to
mark the NRI Day celebrations. With the Indian Foreign
Secretary, Kanwal Sibal, the Indian Ambassador, Lalit Mansingh,
and the Joint Secretary, PM Office, P S Raghavan, also present,
the Prime Minister offered support to USINPAC's mission,
and encouraged USINPAC to continue its innovative efforts in
building closer strategic and economic ties between the US and
India, "The mission you have started," he said, "has to succeed."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^

Directly below you will see statements taken from the Democrats'
letters. In all cases they pledged to support the best interests of the
Indian economy. Candidates missing from this list include Rev. Al
Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich, and Carol Moseley Braun. Kucinich has
repeatedly said that he supports guest-worker visa programs and
endorsed the guest-worker/amnesty bill called "Border Security and
Immigration Improvement Act of 2003" that is sponsored by Sen. John
McCain, Rep. Jeff Flake, and Jim Kolbe.

All of this means that there are only two Democrats that might not have
been bought off yet - Al Sharpton and Mosely Braun. At this time I
don't have information on where Al Sharpton or Mosely Braun stand on
H-1B or guest-worker visas so I cannot endorse them yet.

DICK GEPHARDT

I have taken efforts to make the United States a better place to live
and work for the Indian-American community. In 2000, I negotiated an
agreement to increase the number of H-1B visas issued by the United
States. I also won bipartisan support for the H-1B visa increase by
including worker-training funds in the legislation. This was a huge
victory for Indians seeking to come to the United States to share their
tremendous talents.

JOE LIEBERMAN

Indian Americans must be in the forefront of shaping domestic and
international policy for the United States. They have earned a seat at
the policy table, and the country will be better off for their
participation in policy debates in Washington and beyond. I also oppose
any efforts to eliminate or diminish the H1-B visa program. Why do we
want to limit or otherwise handicap a community that has made such
significant and important contributions to this country? It is
counter-intuitive and counter-productive.

JOHN KERRY

I believe it is important, to both the United States and to India, that
the economic and military relationship between our two countries
continue to grow. ... I will work to cut the backlog of applications
pending with the Bureau for Citizenship and Immigration Services, speed
up the naturalization process and reduce the wait for family visas and
other important matters.

HOWARD DEAN

A few months ago, I had the pleasure of joining members of the US India
Political Action Committee in Washington, DC. America is an immigrant
nation and as President, I will recognize and respect the vital role
that all immigrants, including Indians, have played in building the
American community. For instance, I will work to end the backlogs in
processing visa applications and providing for family reunifications by
ensuring adequate funding for the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration
Services.

WESLEY CLARK

With the exception of the Native Americans among us, we are all
immigrants. A carefully calibrated H-1 visa program allows our nation
to continue to benefit from the skills of the global community.
Immigration and the ability to harness the talents of a connected
worlds, is crucial to our economic, cultural and political progression.
I'm proud to acknowledge that India has been a vibrant source of talent
for America.

JOHN EDWARDS

I applaud the work of the United States India Political Action
Committee (USINPAC) and believe that asking candidates to respond to
the concerns of your constituency is important. America works best when
each and every individual is engaged in civic participation and I look
forward to working with the Indian American community. Increased trade
with India could create many jobs in the United States.

------------------------------------

US India Political Action Committee

Welcome to Presidential Election Campaign 2004!

Message from USINPAC Executive director Sanjay puri

Dear Friends,

With the Presidential Election now less than a year away, campaigning
for the nomination among the Democrats is now in full swing. On the
Republican side, President Bush will be the nominee for re-election.
All of the candidates have been keenly seeking the support of the
Indian American community. Several have reached out actively to our
community.

The Indian American community has been increasingly active in public
affairs. In the last Presidential Election, we estimate that the
community contributed over $7 million to the various campaigns. This is
a very welcome development, indicating the growing political maturation
of the community. At the same time, it is unclear if this has as yet
resulted in any significant recognition of the community as a voting
block in either of the two parties. We still have far too little
visible presence of Indian Americans in the campaigns. USINPAC is
working to change this situation.

Consistent with this objective, USINPC has decided to provide an
opportunity to the Indian American community to find out by the various
candidates, particularly on issues important to us. We plan to make
this information available on our website, and we will continue to
update it periodically. We hope this information will be helpful to you
as you make up your mind about each of the candidates.

Support Groups are in the process of being formed. If you have an
interest, please contact Dr. Inder Sud at: who is
spearheading this effort for USINPAC.

Click here to read the rest of the message. Go to our Presidential
Elections 2004 site

Thank you,

Sanjay Puri

Executive Director

US India Political Action Committee

------------------------------------

Letter from Congressman Gephardt

Dear Friends:

I applaud the work of the United States India Political Action
Committee (USINPAC), and appreciate the opportunity to share my views
with you. Since its inception, USINPAC has encouraged Indian-Americans
to become politically active and strengthened Indian-American
communications at the federal, state and local levels. In May of this
year, I was honored to speak with members of USINPAC during their
Democratic Leadership Day to discuss issues that impact Indian-American
communities.

The United States and India have formed a bond over the years that
reflects our common interests. Since I was elected to Congress 27 years
ago, I have always been committed to issues that better the lives of
Indians and Indian-Americans. I welcome the opportunity to share with
you my views and strong record on these issues.

(To read the rest of letter, click here.)
http://www.usinpac.com/RichardGephardtPE2004.asp#dick

Best regards,

Congressman Richard A. Gephardt

------------------------------------

Letter from Senator Lieberman

Dear Friends:

The strength of the United States has always come from its diversity.
Its diversity comes from its immigrant communities. We are a strong
nation, a unified nation, because of our diversity.

One of our nation=92s most important and fastest growing immigrant
communities is the Indian American Community. It is two million plus
strong and growing. Approximately 10% of the medical students in this
country are Indian American. One out of four high tech businesses in
the San Francisco Bay Area is Indian American owned. The American
landscape is full of Indian entrepreneurs who create economic growth
and opportunity as small businessmen and -women. Indian Americans have
the highest per capita income of any ethnic minority at $68,000. In
short, Indian Americans are a success story.

(To read the rest of letter, click here.)
http://www.usinpac.com/JoeLiebermanPE2004.asp#joe

Sincerely,

Joe Lieberman

------------------------------------

Letter from Senator Kerry

Dear Friends:

I am delighted to have this opportunity to share my views and my vision
with the Indian-American community. The importance of this election
cannot be overstated. George Bush has taken our country down the wrong
path in nearly every conceivable way. As president, I will make America
safer, stronger and more prosperous. I will nurture the important
relationship between the United States and India and ensure that the
rights of Indian-Americans are protected here at home.

I have long supported a closer relationship between the United States
and India -- democracies that share many ideals, and face common
challenges. I believe it is important, to both the United States and to
India, that the economic and military relationship between our two
countries continue to grow. As President, I will continue the combined
naval and special forces exercises our governments have undertaken. The
threat of international terrorism affects both the United States and
India. And the fight against terrorism requires a mix of military,
diplomatic and law enforcement responses. I strongly believe that the
United States and India must continue to work together to bolster our
joint capacities. The development of bilateral and multilateral working
groups is crucial.

(To read the rest of letter, click here.)
http://www.usinpac.com/JohnKerryPE2004.asp#kerry

Sincerely,

John F. Kerry

------------------------------------

Letter from Governor Dean

Dear Friends,

A few months ago, I had the pleasure of joining members of the US
India Political Action Committee in Washington, DC, as part of your
Democratic Leadership Day. I would like to take this opportunity to
share with your entire membership why I am running for President of the
United States and how, as President, I will address some of the issues
that are important to the Indian American community.

I am running for President to restore the ideal of the American
community. Protecting our civil rights is fundamental to this ideal.
Whether you define community by geography, ethnicity, religion, or
shared experience, our democracy is built on a foundation of mutual
respect and equal opportunity for all our diverse populations. To
accomplish this goal, I will appoint an Attorney General who sees our
constitution not as a document to be manipulated, ignored, and
violated, but recognizes and respects it as the fabric that binds the
American community together. As President, I will implement measures
to remove the glass ceiling that impedes qualified men and women from
professional advancement because of race or national origin. I will
also direct my Attorney General to put an end to racial profiling
practices within the federal government and among federally funded
state and local law enforcement agencies. I will call for the rollback
of the Patriot Act and the overly broad investigative and surveillance
powers it gives to the government. I will also oppose any effort to
expand the powers authorized under the Act.

(To read the rest of letter, click here.)
http://www.usinpac.com/HowardDeanPE2004.asp#dean

Sincerely,

Howard Dean, M.D.

------------------------------------

Letter from Wesley K. Clark

Greetings USINPAC members:

Thank you for inviting me to share my views with you. I believe
America=92s true strength lies in its diversity, and the Indian-
American community is integral to the enrichment and prosperity of this
country. I commend the United States India Political Action Committee
(USINPAC) for being engaged in the kind of public discourse that makes
America great.

The relationship between the U.S. and India is rooted in our common
democratic ideals=97and it grows stronger everyday. As President I will
be committed to addressing the wide range of issues important to the
Indian-American community.

(To read the rest of letter, click here.)
http://www.usinpac.com/WesleyClerkPE2004.asp#wesley

Sincerely,

Wesley K. Clark

------------------------------------

Letter from Senator Edwards

Dear Members of the USINPAC:

I applaud the work of the United States India Political Action
Committee (USINPAC) and believe that asking candidates to respond to
the concerns of your constituency is important.

America works best when each and every individual is engaged in civic
participation and I look forward to working with the Indian American
community. The United States and India share many common strategic
interests. I agree with Prime Minister Vajpayee that as the world=92s
largest democracies, and with the values and principles that we share,
the U.S. and India are "natural allies." As natural allies, we should
continue to cooperate on a wide range of defense issues, including
joint military exercises and the sale of military equipment when this
enhances India's security and contributes to regional stability.

(To read the rest of letter, click here.)
http://www.usinpac.com/JohnEdwardsPE2004.asp#john

Sincerely,

John Edwards

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[Gig Giacona]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:MBICb.2788$pY.2535@fed1read04...
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:20:22 -0600 "Gig Giacona"
> wrote:
> >
> > Your argument proves my point. If it becomes important enough the market
> > will deal with the problem. In this case the Toyota Prius. But I'd be
> > willing to bet they are not out selling SUVs.
>
>
> Now I've got you! Mooohahaha. :) SUVs have been selling like hot cakes
> because of at least two loopholes in the laws. One is how they are
classified
> and the other is a huge tax-break for businesses that buy them (a weight
thing)

Keep in mind that the world and for that matter the USA is a very big place.
Not every state gives huge tax breaks for SUVs. And in most states the tax
goes up with the weight. BUT... for the sake of agument let's not even talk
about cars bought for business use... Just personal. I'd be will ing to bet
the Prius is still way behind the even Toyota's own SUV in sales.

>
> The "market" you lovingly cling to is once again artificially buoyed up
> because it's rivets are popping and it's long in the tooth and creaking
and
> it's past TBO and it's ready to rest in Davey Jones' locker and it's ready
> to go Tango Uniform and ....

And state controlled economies have just proven SOOOO successful.


>
>
> Now the Prius has huge tariffs imposed by the US govt. and their are no
> loopholes. (although I think in some states the state subsidizes a portion
> of the cost, sort of like undoing the federally imposed tariffs)
>

I have no idea what the tariff is on the Prius but from Toyota's own web
site there seems to be some sort of Federal Tax DEDUCTION for buying one.




Retail purchasers of a new Prius may be eligible for a federal tax deduction
of up to $2,000 for purchases completed during calendar year 2003. Details
are as follows:
How to Claim up to $2,000 Federal Tax Deduction

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) requires that purchasers retain normal
proof of purchase documentation as well as the Toyota Certification letter
and Internal Revenue Service Acknowledgement letter as substantiation for
the deduction.
For printable copies of both letters, click the icons below.
For further information from the IRS, see the IRS News Releases of October
6, 2003; August 12, 2003; and Revenue Procedure 2002-42.
Toyota Certification Letter - Model Years 2001, 2002 and 2003
Toyota Certification Letter - Model Year 2004
IRS Acknowledgement Letter - Model Years 2001, 2002 and 2003
IRS Acknowledgement Letter - Model Year 2004

Up to $2,000 Federal Tax Deduction Guidelines

The purchase of a new Prius (model years 2001, 2002, 2003 or 2004 only) must
be completed on or before December 31, 2003 for the $2000 deduction.
Vehicles purchased during calendar year 2004 may be eligible for a $1,500
tax deduction.
Before using this important federal tax deduction on your tax return, please
check with your tax advisor for possible additional state tax benefits and
for any changes in the federal tax laws that might occur after October 1,
2003.
The federal tax deduction is not available for Prius lessees or purchasers
of used Prius vehicles. To the extent applicable, this deduction is
available to Prius purchasers regardless of whether you itemize deductions
on your federal income tax return.
Your overall federal tax benefit will depend on your individual tax
situation, particularly if you claim depreciation deductions on your Prius.
See your tax advisor for more details.


> >

[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
> > Gig Giacona wrote:
> > >
> > > And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that there
will
> > > never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is sufficient
> > > demand.
> >
>
>
> Yes, this is an argument that is often made, the market will save us all
> with advances in technology and science and efficiency. The market
serves
> itself, what is good for the market is not necessarily good for the
public.
> Their interests may intersect but don't bet the farm on it.
>
> - Carl -
>
>
>

How about an example..

[Andrew Gideon]

Gig Giacona wrote:

> How about an example..

That's easy; straight out of any intro economics class.

For example, consider a factory. It has a choice of producing in an
environmentally friendly way at price X, or in an environmentally
unfriendly way at some fraction of X.

Even if we assume everyone operating with complete knowledge and
"enlightened self interest", if the market for the factory is sufficiently
larger than the population impacted by the pollution generated by the
factory, it is more "market friendly" (ie. more profitable) to operate in
an environmentally unfriendly way.

These are called "market failures". The term "failure" is based upon a
judgement against some ideal, which tells you that even economists have
aspirations that aren't market-driven <grin>.

It's been a while, but I think the definition of "market failure" is where
the market doesn't allocate resources to maximize consumer satisfaction.
In the above example, even if we assume people would be willing to pay a
higher cost for their products to maintain a clean environment for
themselves, this doesn't happen because most dollars spent would provide a
clean environment for someone other than the buyer.

That is, the consumers of a given factory's output aren't those that suffer
from the pollution from that factory.

It seems to me that whenever there is a cost paid by someone other than the
consumer, this type of situation can arise. I *think* this is what is
meant by an "externality", but I'm not sure (like I said: it's been a
while).

- Andrew

[R. Hubbell]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:01:22 -0600 "Gig Giacona" > wrote:

>
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> news:MBICb.2788$pY.2535@fed1read04...
> > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:20:22 -0600 "Gig Giacona"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Your argument proves my point. If it becomes important enough the market
> > > will deal with the problem. In this case the Toyota Prius. But I'd be
> > > willing to bet they are not out selling SUVs.
> >
> >
> > Now I've got you! Mooohahaha. :) SUVs have been selling like hot cakes
> > because of at least two loopholes in the laws. One is how they are
> classified
> > and the other is a huge tax-break for businesses that buy them (a weight
> thing)
>
> Keep in mind that the world and for that matter the USA is a very big place.
> Not every state gives huge tax breaks for SUVs. And in most states the tax

Neither lophole is a state loophole.


> goes up with the weight. BUT... for the sake of agument let's not even talk
> about cars bought for business use... Just personal. I'd be will ing to bet
> the Prius is still way behind the even Toyota's own SUV in sales.


You're missing one of the main points, the fact that SUVs are misclassified
allows people to buy them at a fraction of what they would cost if they
were classified properly. (don't have the details, I believe it hinges on
weight and safety ratings)

>
> >
> > The "market" you lovingly cling to is once again artificially buoyed up
> > because it's rivets are popping and it's long in the tooth and creaking
> and
> > it's past TBO and it's ready to rest in Davey Jones' locker and it's ready
> > to go Tango Uniform and ....
>
> And state controlled economies have just proven SOOOO successful.

And there lies the crux of the whole thing.
Define successful.

>
>
> >
> >
> > Now the Prius has huge tariffs imposed by the US govt. and their are no
> > loopholes. (although I think in some states the state subsidizes a portion
> > of the cost, sort of like undoing the federally imposed tariffs)
> >
>
> I have no idea what the tariff is on the Prius but from Toyota's own web
> site there seems to be some sort of Federal Tax DEDUCTION for buying one.


But that is still a fraction of the price reduction that SUVs enjoy.


R. Hubbell

>
>
>
>
> Retail purchasers of a new Prius may be eligible for a federal tax deduction
> of up to $2,000 for purchases completed during calendar year 2003. Details
> are as follows:
> How to Claim up to $2,000 Federal Tax Deduction
>
> The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) requires that purchasers retain normal
> proof of purchase documentation as well as the Toyota Certification letter
> and Internal Revenue Service Acknowledgement letter as substantiation for
> the deduction.
> For printable copies of both letters, click the icons below.
> For further information from the IRS, see the IRS News Releases of October
> 6, 2003; August 12, 2003; and Revenue Procedure 2002-42.
> Toyota Certification Letter - Model Years 2001, 2002 and 2003
> Toyota Certification Letter - Model Year 2004
> IRS Acknowledgement Letter - Model Years 2001, 2002 and 2003
> IRS Acknowledgement Letter - Model Year 2004
>
> Up to $2,000 Federal Tax Deduction Guidelines
>
> The purchase of a new Prius (model years 2001, 2002, 2003 or 2004 only) must
> be completed on or before December 31, 2003 for the $2000 deduction.
> Vehicles purchased during calendar year 2004 may be eligible for a $1,500
> tax deduction.
> Before using this important federal tax deduction on your tax return, please
> check with your tax advisor for possible additional state tax benefits and
> for any changes in the federal tax laws that might occur after October 1,
> 2003.
> The federal tax deduction is not available for Prius lessees or purchasers
> of used Prius vehicles. To the extent applicable, this deduction is
> available to Prius purchasers regardless of whether you itemize deductions
> on your federal income tax return.
> Your overall federal tax benefit will depend on your individual tax
> situation, particularly if you claim depreciation deductions on your Prius.
> See your tax advisor for more details.
>
>
> > >
>
>

[Bob Noel]

In article <SYpDb.12267$pY.8244@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> wrote:

> You're missing one of the main points, the fact that SUVs are
> misclassified
> allows people to buy them at a fraction of what they would cost if they
> were classified properly. (don't have the details, I believe it hinges on
> weight and safety ratings)

"a fraction"? how much? 1/10th? 1/2? 95%?

--
Bob Noel

[Carl Ellis]

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Gig Giacona wrote:
> > > >
> > > > And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that there
> will
> > > > never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is
sufficient
> > > > demand.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yes, this is an argument that is often made, the market will save us all
> > with advances in technology and science and efficiency. The market
> serves
> > itself, what is good for the market is not necessarily good for the
> public.
> > Their interests may intersect but don't bet the farm on it.
> >
> > - Carl -
> >
> >
> >
>
> How about an example..
>
>
>

ENRON




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[Carl Ellis]

Here's a thought.

A pure free market and communism have something in common. They can never
work. Why? Human greed, hunger for power, and fallibility.

It seems that there is some tension necessary for success. In the case of
our government it's the executive, judicial, and legislative branches, plus
the multi-party system. In the business world it's entrepreneurs,
corporations, government, and consumers.


- Carl -


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[Gig Giacona]

But how about an example from real life.

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> > How about an example..
>
> That's easy; straight out of any intro economics class.
>
> For example, consider a factory. It has a choice of producing in an
> environmentally friendly way at price X, or in an environmentally
> unfriendly way at some fraction of X.
>
> Even if we assume everyone operating with complete knowledge and
> "enlightened self interest", if the market for the factory is sufficiently
> larger than the population impacted by the pollution generated by the
> factory, it is more "market friendly" (ie. more profitable) to operate in
> an environmentally unfriendly way.
>
> These are called "market failures". The term "failure" is based upon a
> judgement against some ideal, which tells you that even economists have
> aspirations that aren't market-driven <grin>.
>
> It's been a while, but I think the definition of "market failure" is where
> the market doesn't allocate resources to maximize consumer satisfaction.
> In the above example, even if we assume people would be willing to pay a
> higher cost for their products to maintain a clean environment for
> themselves, this doesn't happen because most dollars spent would provide a
> clean environment for someone other than the buyer.
>
> That is, the consumers of a given factory's output aren't those that
suffer
> from the pollution from that factory.
>
> It seems to me that whenever there is a cost paid by someone other than
the
> consumer, this type of situation can arise. I *think* this is what is
> meant by an "externality", but I'm not sure (like I said: it's been a
> while).
>
> - Andrew
>

[Gig Giacona]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:SYpDb.12267$pY.8244@fed1read04...
Gig WROTE:
> > And state controlled economies have just proven SOOOO successful.
>
> And there lies the crux of the whole thing.
> Define successful.
>
> >

They didn't all implode over the last 15 years.

[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > Gig Giacona wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that
there
> > will
> > > > > never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is
> sufficient
> > > > > demand.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, this is an argument that is often made, the market will save us
all
> > > with advances in technology and science and efficiency. The market
> > serves
> > > itself, what is good for the market is not necessarily good for the
> > public.
> > > Their interests may intersect but don't bet the farm on it.
> > >
> > > - Carl -
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > How about an example..
> >
> >
> >
>
> ENRON
>

ENRON could have not have happened in a truly free market. It is an example
of what happens as a market is freed after a long period of artificial
control. Another example is the Russian Mafia.

[Carl Ellis]

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message >...
> "Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > > Gig Giacona wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that
> there
> will
> > > > > > never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is
> sufficient
> > > > > > demand.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, this is an argument that is often made, the market will save us
> all
> > > > with advances in technology and science and efficiency. The market
> serves
> > > > itself, what is good for the market is not necessarily good for the
> public.
> > > > Their interests may intersect but don't bet the farm on it.
> > > >
> > > > - Carl -
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > How about an example..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ENRON
> >
>
> ENRON could have not have happened in a truly free market. It is an example
> of what happens as a market is freed after a long period of artificial
> control. Another example is the Russian Mafia.

Deregulation simply gave ENRON the opportunity to game the system. It
all boils down to whether people want to play fair or not. Yes, in
the end the market punished them by dropping their stock price to zero
but only after the government opened investigations. People will
cheat if they believe they can get away with it. The "free market"
does not prevent this.

I believe a truly free market is unattainable - it's a utopian ideal.
Human nature will not allow it.


- Carl -

[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
om...
> "Gig Giacona" > wrote in message > > > ENRON
> > >
> >
> > ENRON could have not have happened in a truly free market. It is an
example
> > of what happens as a market is freed after a long period of artificial
> > control. Another example is the Russian Mafia.
>
> Deregulation simply gave ENRON the opportunity to game the system. It
> all boils down to whether people want to play fair or not. Yes, in
> the end the market punished them by dropping their stock price to zero
> but only after the government opened investigations. People will
> cheat if they believe they can get away with it. The "free market"
> does not prevent this.
>
> I believe a truly free market is unattainable - it's a utopian ideal.
> Human nature will not allow it.
>
>

You are giving too much credit to the government. ENRON's house of cards
would have failed and was in the process of doing so before the
investigation.

I'm not saying there should be know laws. Fraud, theft should be controlled
and punished by the government.

Let's just call it quits and talk about airplanes.

What kind do you have, Carl?

[Carl Ellis]

>
> Let's just call it quits and talk about airplanes.
>
> What kind do you have, Carl?
>
>

Good idea 8-).

1977 F-19 Taylorcraft. It has an O-200 and 1500 lbs gross. It's a real
performer.

- Carl -


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[Carl Ellis]

>
> Good idea 8-).
>
> 1977 F-19 Taylorcraft. It has an O-200 and 1500 lbs gross. It's a real
> performer.
>
> - Carl -

And you Gig?


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[R. Hubbell]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:57:13 -0600 "Gig Giacona" > wrote:

>
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> news:SYpDb.12267$pY.8244@fed1read04...
> Gig WROTE:
> > > And state controlled economies have just proven SOOOO successful.
> >
> > And there lies the crux of the whole thing.
> > Define successful.
> >
> > >
>
> They didn't all implode over the last 15 years.


But you still haven't defined successful. It's a relative term.
Your definition will be relative to your experience. Our economy is
state controlled it's just that you and many others can't see that it is.
Tariffs, subsidies, etc., etc.


R. Hubbell

>
>

[R. Hubbell]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:23:48 GMT Bob Noel > wrote:

> In article <SYpDb.12267$pY.8244@fed1read04>, "R. Hubbell"
> > wrote:
>
> > You're missing one of the main points, the fact that SUVs are
> > misclassified
> > allows people to buy them at a fraction of what they would cost if they
> > were classified properly. (don't have the details, I believe it hinges on
> > weight and safety ratings)
>
> "a fraction"? how much? 1/10th? 1/2? 95%?


I have heard that if SUVs were to have to meet safety requirements
imposed on PAX cars that their prices would be close to double.

PAX cars have more stringent requirements then trucks. Those requirements
alter the price considerably. e.g. trucks don't even have to have bumpers.

But we all know SUVs are PAX cars.

And my original point was that SUVs have been artificially bouyed up
by the govt. and the free market everyone loves to tout is not really
a free market. Our economy is indeed govt. run.


R. Hubbell


>
> --
> Bob Noel

[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > Good idea 8-).
> >
> > 1977 F-19 Taylorcraft. It has an O-200 and 1500 lbs gross. It's a real
> > performer.
> >
> > - Carl -
>
> And you Gig?
>
>

Building a Zenith 601XL.. You can see up to the minute photos of the under
taking at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

[Carl Ellis]

"> >
>
> Building a Zenith 601XL.. You can see up to the minute photos of the under
> taking at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>

That's a nice little airplane. I imagine you've had a chance to fly one?
What are your impressions?

- Carl -


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[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
>
> "> >
> >
> > Building a Zenith 601XL.. You can see up to the minute photos of the
under
> > taking at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
> >
> >
>
> That's a nice little airplane. I imagine you've had a chance to fly one?
> What are your impressions?
>
> - Carl -
>
>
I went through the new builder's workshop and test flew the plane in
September on 2002. When went up to the factory in Mexico MO I had never
seen one in person. I had already paid my $300 for the rudder kit and had 2
things I had to know before I left or else I wouldn't continue the project.

1. How did the plane fly? I didn't want an ultralight I wanted a small plane
that I could comfortably do x-country in and maybe even very light IFR.

Within 1 minute of take-off I was pretty sure the 601XL would fill the bill
on that. After 30 minutes I was sure.

2. Could I build the thing pretty much alone with my very limited skill set?

I felt obviously felt that I could. I've made a couple of mistakes along the
way but nothing a couple of hundred dollars of new parts wouldn't fix.

I also looked into the Sonex. For what I wanted the panel area looked a
little small and it's design was a kind of radical for my taste and it was a
much less proven design, especially at the time.

The RVs are great but I didn't feel like I could do enough of the work
without an extra set of hands.


Gig Giacona
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

[Carl Ellis]

> I also looked into the Sonex. For what I wanted the panel area looked a
> little small and it's design was a kind of radical for my taste and it was
a
> much less proven design, especially at the time.

Yes, the Sonex looks interesting but it is soooo funny looking!

>
> The RVs are great but I didn't feel like I could do enough of the work
> without an extra set of hands.
>

Did you consider a Murphy at all?

- Carl -


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[Gig Giacona]

"Carl Ellis" > wrote in message
...
> > I also looked into the Sonex. For what I wanted the panel area looked a
> > little small and it's design was a kind of radical for my taste and it
was
> a
> > much less proven design, especially at the time.
>
> Yes, the Sonex looks interesting but it is soooo funny looking!
>
> >
> > The RVs are great but I didn't feel like I could do enough of the work
> > without an extra set of hands.
> >
>
> Did you consider a Murphy at all?
>
> - Carl -
>

It is just a personal preference. I like low wings.

[Carl Ellis]

>
> It is just a personal preference. I like low wings.
>

Oh no, I hope this doesn't reignite the low wing vs high wing debate. 8-)

- Carl -


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[R. Hubbell]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:35:52 -0800 "Carl Ellis" > wrote:

> >
> > It is just a personal preference. I like low wings.
> >
>
> Oh no, I hope this doesn't reignite the low wing vs high wing debate. 8-)


No, but I'm sure someone out ther is wondering who has bigger cojones.

Low wingers or high wingers?


R. Hubbell

>
> - Carl -
>
>
> ---
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>
>