DUI's and flying?

[Part86]

I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career as a
pilot. My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that effects my
opportunities. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? I'm 23 years old
and I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to fly.
Thanks

[BTIZ]

two strikes against you in a three strikes your out world..

you can fly.. you have to stay stone sober clean...

obviously you have shown that you have no control when drinking..

hopefully these are far into the past.. but at 23.. only two years of legal
aged drinking and two DUIs.. do not hold much promise..

it's hard to say either way.. the only way to tell is to try and get a Class
III student medical certificate.. and make sure you list your past
convictions... it's better you fess up.. then for them to find it later on
their own..

BT
"Part86" > wrote in message
...
> I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career as
a
> pilot. My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that
effects my
> opportunities. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? I'm 23
years old
> and I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to
fly.
> Thanks

[Jay Honeck]

> My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that effects my
> opportunities. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? I'm 23
years old
> and I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to
fly.

If you are still a practicing alcoholic, the answer is "no".

However, even if you're now sober, I suspect you'll have a hard time getting
your 3rd Class Medical approved.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rob Perkins]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:00:36 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>If you are still a practicing alcoholic, the answer is "no".
>
>However, even if you're now sober, I suspect you'll have a hard time getting
>your 3rd Class Medical approved.

What do you suppose will happen if they ever change the health rules
for Private privileges to "driver's license" medicals?

Rob

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:35 +0000, Rob Perkins wrote:

> What do you suppose will happen if they ever change the health rules
> for Private privileges to "driver's license" medicals?

We'll have a bunch of drunks with a ticker about to expire flying?

[Koopas Ly]

(Part86) wrote in message >...
> I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career as a
> pilot... I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to fly.
> Thanks

To persue some kind of career as a pilot, you need to be a commercial pilot.

Alex

[tony roberts]

> I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career as a
> pilot. My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that effects
> my opportunities.

You "may" get the medical, and then the training, and pass the exams.
Now you have invested many thousands of dollars but don't have a job.
For every low time pilot job vacancy there are LOTS of suitable and well
qualified candidates.
If you were in charge of recruitment, would you hire someone with 2
DUI's? That is whatyou need to consider before you invest the bucks.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[BTIZ]

that's for the sport pilot or recreational rating.. not private..

BT

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:00:36 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
> >If you are still a practicing alcoholic, the answer is "no".
> >
> >However, even if you're now sober, I suspect you'll have a hard time
getting
> >your 3rd Class Medical approved.
>
> What do you suppose will happen if they ever change the health rules
> for Private privileges to "driver's license" medicals?
>
> Rob

[Richard Hertz]

Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
("practicing" or not)

You can "self certify" yourself if you want to fly gliders if you are unable
to get a medical or if the FAA won't grant the certificate.

(I am assuming "he")

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:osQxb.341166$Tr4.1030000@attbi_s03...
> > My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that effects my
> > opportunities. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? I'm 23
> years old
> > and I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to
> fly.
>
> If you are still a practicing alcoholic, the answer is "no".
>
> However, even if you're now sober, I suspect you'll have a hard time
getting
> your 3rd Class Medical approved.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[JSF]

Actually the airlines have quite a number of alcoholic piltos...American
sent their problem drinkers to Hazleton Minnesota to a treatment center for
years and may still do so...
As to what this aspiring pilot can expect a lot depends on the timing of
the DUI's...If it's been a number of years ago that would work in his
favor...If it was 2 episodes close together at age 21 (or before) and he's
been sober since, that would be favorable togetting a medical
certificate....He should go the medical aviation examiner, complete the form
and DON'T LIE ! The examiner will take all the data and likely defer the
issuance to the FAA.
They will review it - it would expedite their handling of it if he has a
consulatation report from a alcohol/drug abuse counselor showing his
temperance and also participation in a 12 step or other "after-care"
program. If however there are ongoing issues, it would be more of a problem
in getting a medical certificate!
Anyone with a medical who gets convicted of DUI must notify the FAA as
well.
As for jobs - yes, the airlines and others are choosing from pools of
applicants...any blemish makes it more difficult...but entry level jobs-
cargo dogs, flight instructors, smaller corporate flight departments are
more commonly filled by personal recommendations and frequently
who-do-you-know and how well do they know you...so starting small, busting
your hump and staying sober will go a long way....eventaually as he has
hours and experience time will have passed... and his driving record may
have been cleanesed...can be done in some states after a period of
years...or governor's clemency (read political donation!) ...anyway, the
airlines generally only ask if you've had a DUI in the past X number of
years..generally 5 - 10...some sin committed in his youth and not repeated
in past 5 - 10 years may not be considered real relevant.
I know of someone who had 3 DUI's in his youth - saw the light, and now is
a first officer for a major carrier...it can happen - but it isn't easy!!
"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7A690D.19315328112003@shawnews...
> > I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career
as a
> > pilot. My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that
effects
> > my opportunities.
>
> You "may" get the medical, and then the training, and pass the exams.
> Now you have invested many thousands of dollars but don't have a job.
> For every low time pilot job vacancy there are LOTS of suitable and well
> qualified candidates.
> If you were in charge of recruitment, would you hire someone with 2
> DUI's? That is whatyou need to consider before you invest the bucks.
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Almost Instrument :)
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[S. Ramirez]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message
. ..
> Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> ("practicing" or not)

How else would you label him?

Simon

[Part86]

>Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
>("practicing" or not)
>

Thank you! I am by no means an alcoholic! That is a ridiculous assumtion to
make. I'm 23 and yes I made some really stupid choices but I'm not an
alcoholic. I got them at ages 19 and 21 when I was in a college town partying.

[Part86]

>Actually the airlines have quite a number of alcoholic piltos...American
>sent their problem drinkers to Hazleton Minnesota to a treatment center for
>years and may still do so...
> As to what this aspiring pilot can expect a lot depends on the timing of
>the DUI's...If it's been a number of years ago that would work in his
>favor...If it was 2 episodes close together at age 21 (or before) and he's
>been sober since, that would be favorable togetting a medical
>certificate....He should go the medical aviation examiner, complete the form
>and DON'T LIE ! The examiner will take all the data and likely defer the
>issuance to the FAA.
>They will review it - it would expedite their handling of it if he has a
>consulatation report from a alcohol/drug abuse counselor showing his
>temperance and also participation in a 12 step or other "after-care"
>program. If however there are ongoing issues, it would be more of a problem
>in getting a medical certificate!
> Anyone with a medical who gets convicted of DUI must notify the FAA as
>well.
> As for jobs - yes, the airlines and others are choosing from pools of
>applicants...any blemish makes it more difficult...but entry level jobs-
>cargo dogs, flight instructors, smaller corporate flight departments are
>more commonly filled by personal recommendations and frequently
>who-do-you-know and how well do they know you...so starting small, busting
>your hump and staying sober will go a long way....eventaually as he has
>hours and experience time will have passed... and his driving record may
>have been cleanesed...can be done in some states after a period of
>years...or governor's clemency (read political donation!) ...anyway, the
>airlines generally only ask if you've had a DUI in the past X number of
>years..generally 5 - 10...some sin committed in his youth and not repeated
>in past 5 - 10 years may not be considered real relevant.
> I know of someone who had 3 DUI's in his youth - saw the light, and now is
>a first officer for a major carrier...it can happen - but it isn't easy!!

This is encouraging advice, thanks. I didn't expect to get so many replies. I
think I will take a couple lessons and see if it's truly something I want to
dedicate myself to (if I love it), and if I want it badly enough I will
overcome the added challenge. If I'm not that passionate about it then it
doesn't make sense for me to persue it. I figure by the time I am elligable for
a job as a pilot for an airline, it will be about 6 years since my last dui and
I can try and make some friends and connections in that time. What do you
think?

[Montblack]

("S. Ramirez" wrote)
> > Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> > ("practicing" or not)
>
> How else would you label him?


I was 23 .....20 years ago.
(Don't make me go back to 1983. Please!!)

I have NEVER been pulled over ......on a "DWI".
I have NEVER had to put DUI on any paperwork.

I was (way way) stupid, too many times back in those days - and lucked out.

He got caught.

I'm here to tell you, being an idiot doesn't automatically make you an
alcoholic.


Now, stop being an idiot and go take some lessons. <g>

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif

[Richard Hertz]

I wouldn't. Why the alcoholic label?


"S. Ramirez" > wrote in message
...
> "Richard Hertz" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> > ("practicing" or not)
>
> How else would you label him?
>
> Simon
>
>

[Richard Hertz]

Now you've gone and done it. They are going to jump all over you.
According to the "experts" on "alcoholism" denial is a sure giveaway.

(sorry to be so cavalier about your predicament)

"Part86" > wrote in message
...
> >Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> >("practicing" or not)
> >
>
> Thank you! I am by no means an alcoholic! That is a ridiculous assumtion
to
> make. I'm 23 and yes I made some really stupid choices but I'm not an
> alcoholic. I got them at ages 19 and 21 when I was in a college town
partying.

[Craig Prouse]

"Part86" wrote:

> I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career as a
> pilot. My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that effects
> my opportunities.

Check this out if you need some inspiration:

http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182955-1.html

[Barry]

Anyone applying for a medical certificate from the FAA who has a history of
DUI's will have to disclose and comply with the following FAA Guidelines
(see below). Even though it wouldn't seem so, according to the FAA, having
2 DUI's is a history of potential abuse (they don't take DUI's lightly). I
have seen a couple of aspiring airmen overcome this hurdle. The FAA will
have you get an assessment as per the the attached FAA check list and have
the physician, psychologist or licensed drug/alcohol counselor send the
report to the FAA for review and final decision. A young man in your exact
same situation (couple of DUI's while a student at a party college) recently
got his FAA 2nd Class medical after undergoing the required assessment and
is now taking lessons. Go ahead and apply, it'll just take a while to go
through the paperwork. Good luck. Tailwinds.
____________ SNIP ________________

GUIDELINES FOR INITIAL ASSESSMENT OF AIRMEN WTH HISTORY OF MISUSE OF DRUGS
OR ALCOHOL

When the presence of a drug or alcohol problem is in question in an
applicant for airman medical certification, it is the responsibility of the
Office of Aviation Medicine to determine whether a history of substance
abuse or dependence does exist; and if it does, whether there is
satisfactory evidence of recovery.

If it is determined that a problem does exist, the Federal Aviation
administration requires that the applicant submit an evaluation by a
professional who has had special training in diagnosis and/or treatment of
addiction. This would include certified substance abuse counselors,
psychologists or psychiatrists, other physicians with special training in
addictive disorders, and members of ASAM (American Society of Addiction
Medicine).

The report should contain adequate information to determine whether a
problem exists, including significant negatives. This should include, though
not necessarily be restricted to the following information that may be
related to substance misuse.

PERSONAL:
Anxiety, depression, insomnia
Suicidal thoughts or attempts
Personality changes (argumentative, combative)
Loss of self esteem
Isolation

SOCIAL:
Family problems
Separation
Divorce
Irresponsibility
Abuse, Child/Spousal

LEGAL:
Alcohol-related traffic offenses
Public intoxication
Assault and battery

OCCUPATIONAL:
Absenteeism or tardiness at work
Reduced productivity
Demotions
Frequent job changes
Loss of job

MEDICAL:
Blackouts
Memory problems
Stomach, liver or cardiovascular problems
Sexual dysfunction

ECONOMIC:
Frequent financial crises
Bankruptcy
Loss of home
Lack of credit

INTERPERSONAL ADVERSE AFFECTS:
Separation from family, friends, associates, etc.

ADDITIONAL FACTORS:
Tolerance
Withdrawal
Loss of control
Preoccupation with use
Continued use despite consequences

When appropriate, specific information about the quality of recovery should
be provided, including the period of total abstinence. Summary, appraisal,
etc., with final diagnoses in accordance with standard nomenclature is of
particular significance.

Further information may be required, including treatment and traffic
records, psychological testing, as well as other medical and laboratory
records (random drug testing, liver profile, etc.). It may be appropriate
for the evaluator to interview or contact a significant other in the process
of this evaluation.

[Jay Honeck]

> Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> ("practicing" or not)

Harsh, I know -- but here's how I figure this.

1. In younger days, I drove under the influence too many times myself.
2. I am not a "knee-jerk prohibitionist" when it comes to alcohol. At 45, I
still occasionally drive home after a few beers. Anyone who goes to a bar
with friends does, too.
3. My father-in-law and uncle were alcoholics. My sister is an alcoholic.
I have observed these people drink themselves into oblivion. I know for a
fact that all of them got behind the wheel occasionally when they should not
have.
4. None of them was ever convicted of ANY DUI tickets.

Given my background, I think I am at least semi-qualified to say the
following:

1. Part86 has TWO DUI tickets.
2. He/she's either incredibly unlucky, or he/she has managed to drive while
drunk worse than the three most hard-core, practicing alcoholics I know.

Perhaps the law enforcement folks just have it in for Part86 -- but I doubt
it. One conviction could happen to anyone -- but I think it's pretty safe
to say that anyone with TWO DUI convictions is a practicing alcoholic, and
needs to walk away from booze, pronto.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Thank you! I am by no means an alcoholic! That is a ridiculous assumtion
to
> make. I'm 23 and yes I made some really stupid choices but I'm not an
> alcoholic. I got them at ages 19 and 21 when I was in a college town
partying.

Listen, Part -- I live in a college party town. Every football weekend the
jails are chock-full of drunks, and I occasionally have to deal with the
results of their partying in my hotel.

Despite this, given the huge number of students involved (35,000 students),
the odds of any one person getting TWO DUIs around here are almost
unimaginably small. One conviction could happen to almost anyone -- but
two?

You may not be an alcoholic -- you may just be an unlucky party boy. Either
way, I sincerely hope you've learned to take it easy -- for everyone's sake.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mike regish]

I've got to rebut this one. I had 2 dui's about 16 years ago. I wasn't then,
nor am I now, an alcoholic. I still have an ocassional beer, but since I've
been married and had kids I hardly ever go out, and then it's either a Xmas
party or rock concert. I still have about a 6 pack left from a case in the
fridge from my son's birthday party in October (early). Most of the ones
gone, I didn't even drink. When I got the DUI's I was single and going out a
couple of nights a week to play pool and socialize. You can't spend time in
a bar and stay under the legal limit.

I know the drunk driving school I went to also uses the "You're in trouble
from drinking, therefore you're an alcoholic" theory, and it may be true in
most cases, but it is certainly not a rule without exceptions. According to
tthem, I should be dead by now, or at least back in jail since I haven't
totally sworn off drinking. Yet I'm not either. I'm going on 20 years at the
same job (ugh), have a modest home and a wonderful wife and kids. I also
have a plane of my own. I can honestly say I've never been happier, yet I
can still enjoy an ocassional beer. All after 2 dui convictions.

Also, I had to get rides to work when I lost my license. One of my regular
rides would pick up a six pack and four nips at lunchtime. He drank 3 beers
adn 2 nips at lunch, 2 nips during work and downed the other 3 beers on the
way home. Ironically, I was never the least bit concerned with his driving.
My father, however, who hasn't drunk in decades, made me a nervous wreck.

Cleaning up my desk just now, I found the letter from the FAA after applying
for my first Class 3 medical. It says:

Our review of your medical records has established that you are eligible for
a Third Class medical certificate. You are cautioned that further alcohol
related offenses, or evidence of alcohol abuse may require re-evaluation of
your medical certification.

So, even after 11 years, it was a factor to them. I think part86 may have to
jump through a few hoops for a while, but it is certainly doable. I'd
recommend getting the medical up front, just so you know wether it's worth
going for now or waiting a few years.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:1D3yb.153952$Dw6.618565@attbi_s02...
> > Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> > ("practicing" or not)
>
> Harsh, I know -- but here's how I figure this.
>
> 1. In younger days, I drove under the influence too many times myself.
> 2. I am not a "knee-jerk prohibitionist" when it comes to alcohol. At 45,
I
> still occasionally drive home after a few beers. Anyone who goes to a bar
> with friends does, too.
> 3. My father-in-law and uncle were alcoholics. My sister is an alcoholic.
> I have observed these people drink themselves into oblivion. I know for a
> fact that all of them got behind the wheel occasionally when they should
not
> have.
> 4. None of them was ever convicted of ANY DUI tickets.
>
> Given my background, I think I am at least semi-qualified to say the
> following:
>
> 1. Part86 has TWO DUI tickets.
> 2. He/she's either incredibly unlucky, or he/she has managed to drive
while
> drunk worse than the three most hard-core, practicing alcoholics I know.
>
> Perhaps the law enforcement folks just have it in for Part86 -- but I
doubt
> it. One conviction could happen to anyone -- but I think it's pretty
safe
> to say that anyone with TWO DUI convictions is a practicing alcoholic, and
> needs to walk away from booze, pronto.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-28 18:53:32 -0800, (Koopas Ly) said:

> To persue some kind of career as a pilot, you need to be a commercial pilot.

Trust me on this - when most people think of "commercial" pilots, they are thinking
"airline pilots". I know this because I get this all the time. I'm talking to friends or
relatives who know I fly for a living, or I'm introduced to someone who has just
learned that I fly for a living. Someone will invariably ask if I plan to "go commercial"
eventually. I've given up trying to explain that what I'm doing *is* commercial flying.
I just say, "Yes, I'm working on getting an airline job." I have learned that *that* is
the question they're asking.

[Gene Seibel]

And then you'll need to get your strength to resist up when you attend
any gathering of pilots.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




> two strikes against you in a three strikes your out world..
>
> you can fly.. you have to stay stone sober clean...
>
> obviously you have shown that you have no control when drinking..
>
> hopefully these are far into the past.. but at 23.. only two years of legal
> aged drinking and two DUIs.. do not hold much promise..
>
> it's hard to say either way.. the only way to tell is to try and get a Class
> III student medical certificate.. and make sure you list your past
> convictions... it's better you fess up.. then for them to find it later on
> their own..
>
> BT
> "Part86" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career as
> a
> > pilot. My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that
> effects my
> > opportunities. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? I'm 23
> years old
> > and I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to
> fly.
> > Thanks

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rob Perkins wrote:
>
> What do you suppose will happen if they ever change the health rules
> for Private privileges to "driver's license" medicals?

The ice skating rink in Hell will open up the next day.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Part86 wrote:
>
> This is encouraging advice, thanks. I didn't expect to get so many replies. I
> think I will take a couple lessons and see if it's truly something I want to
> dedicate myself to (if I love it), and if I want it badly enough I will
> overcome the added challenge. If I'm not that passionate about it then it
> doesn't make sense for me to persue it. I figure by the time I am elligable for
> a job as a pilot for an airline, it will be about 6 years since my last dui and
> I can try and make some friends and connections in that time. What do you
> think?

Sounds like the right approach to me.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Richard Hertz]

Listen, Jay-- It sounds like you have issues with people who drink alcohol.
Your rants about drinking have no bearing on this person's question.
Instead of keeping quiet you chose to jump all over him.

I sincerely hope you learn to take it easy posting to this board -- for
everyone's sake.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:VK3yb.351564$Tr4.1044549@attbi_s03...
> > Thank you! I am by no means an alcoholic! That is a ridiculous
assumtion
> to
> > make. I'm 23 and yes I made some really stupid choices but I'm not an
> > alcoholic. I got them at ages 19 and 21 when I was in a college town
> partying.
>
> Listen, Part -- I live in a college party town. Every football weekend
the
> jails are chock-full of drunks, and I occasionally have to deal with the
> results of their partying in my hotel.
>
> Despite this, given the huge number of students involved (35,000
students),
> the odds of any one person getting TWO DUIs around here are almost
> unimaginably small. One conviction could happen to almost anyone -- but
> two?
>
> You may not be an alcoholic -- you may just be an unlucky party boy.
Either
> way, I sincerely hope you've learned to take it easy -- for everyone's
sake.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Richard Hertz]

I figured there was some story about you and drinking and alcoholics - Any
time there is such a reaction (just like your Bible beater issue)

On this I will have to say you are full of crap. You know nothing about the
circumstances and should not venture to say that you know what this person
should do about drinking or not drinking.

that is the problem with the internet. Everyone is "semi-qualified" to say
anything - whether it is a rant about religion or politics or drinking -
even on an aviation newsgroup.

For someone in the services industry you seem to be a little too intolerant.



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:1D3yb.153952$Dw6.618565@attbi_s02...
> > Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> > ("practicing" or not)
>
> Harsh, I know -- but here's how I figure this.
>
> 1. In younger days, I drove under the influence too many times myself.
> 2. I am not a "knee-jerk prohibitionist" when it comes to alcohol. At 45,
I
> still occasionally drive home after a few beers. Anyone who goes to a bar
> with friends does, too.
> 3. My father-in-law and uncle were alcoholics. My sister is an alcoholic.
> I have observed these people drink themselves into oblivion. I know for a
> fact that all of them got behind the wheel occasionally when they should
not
> have.
> 4. None of them was ever convicted of ANY DUI tickets.
>
> Given my background, I think I am at least semi-qualified to say the
> following:
>
> 1. Part86 has TWO DUI tickets.
> 2. He/she's either incredibly unlucky, or he/she has managed to drive
while
> drunk worse than the three most hard-core, practicing alcoholics I know.
>
> Perhaps the law enforcement folks just have it in for Part86 -- but I
doubt
> it. One conviction could happen to anyone -- but I think it's pretty
safe
> to say that anyone with TWO DUI convictions is a practicing alcoholic, and
> needs to walk away from booze, pronto.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Morgans]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote

> On this I will have to say you are full of crap.

\Perhaps he has a problem with people who have so little control, that they
continue to drink and drive.

You know nothing about the
> circumstances and should not venture to say that you know what this person
> should do about drinking or not drinking.

YES, HE CAN VENTURE TO SAY THAT HE SHOULD NOT DRINK AND DRIVE!

One DUI is a mistake.
Two, is an indication of a person without self discipline, or very
immature, or an indication of a person with an alcohol problem.

> For someone in the services industry you seem to be a little too
intolerant.

Perhaps his position lets him see many too many people with alcohol
problems.

Where have you been the last decade or so? Have you not realized that there
is little tolerance for people who drink and drive?

To the original poster: Go ahead and try to do the flying thing. Be aware,
that if you did not change your ways, you will eventually screw up, and be
slapped backwards, all the way to yesterday, if there is another DUI.

I sincerely wish you good luck!
--
Jim in NC

[Part86]

I didn't intend to have my post fuel an argument about alcoholism but some of
the responses have been really ignorant.

If you think it's logical to associate how many times someone has been caught
drinking while driving with how much they actually do it then you have a
serious judgement problem.

My friend IS an alcoholic. He drives drunk every night after 5 shots minimum.
He's been pulled over 4 times and been let go. He has no DUI's. Now that is
good luck. I have the opposite luck. My second dui was the first and only time
I drank before driving since my first one. The cop was waiting in the parking
lot of teh bar for it to close (can you say entrapment?).

**** happens sometimes! I drink maybe once every two weeks. Maybe some may
consider that alcohol abuse but I don't.

Thanks to those who stayed on topic and gave me some helpful advice I
appreciate it.

[Part86]

>Check this out if you need some inspiration:
>
>http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182955-1.html

Thanks!

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:11:27 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>If I'm not that passionate about it then it doesn't make sense
>for me to persue it.


If you can even think, yet alone utter that sentence, you probably
will be unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices.

[Jay Honeck]

> **** happens sometimes! I drink maybe once every two weeks. Maybe some may
> consider that alcohol abuse but I don't.

Agree with you on both counts. I drink at least that much, at least as
often, and I don't consider myself to be an alcoholic.

Of course, this leaves several alternatives, not the least likely is that
you are just incredibly unlucky.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Richard Hertz]

I did not defend drinking and driving - that is clearly a no no. My issue
is with the labeling the poster an alcoholic, then the continued posts of
that nature with a number of faulty assumptions. The intolerance I
mentioned was thrown in regarding Jay's views on a few issues he seems to
think are appropriate for an aviation group. Instead of answering the
person's questions about FAA issues and commercial ratings Jay, among
others, chose to chastise the person. We come to find out later that Jay
readily admits to still driving after a few drinks!?!?! What is that all
about? A little but of hypocrisy I think.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Richard Hertz" > wrote
>
> > On this I will have to say you are full of crap.
>
> \Perhaps he has a problem with people who have so little control, that
they
> continue to drink and drive.
>
> You know nothing about the
> > circumstances and should not venture to say that you know what this
person
> > should do about drinking or not drinking.
>
> YES, HE CAN VENTURE TO SAY THAT HE SHOULD NOT DRINK AND DRIVE!
>
> One DUI is a mistake.
> Two, is an indication of a person without self discipline, or very
> immature, or an indication of a person with an alcohol problem.
>
> > For someone in the services industry you seem to be a little too
> intolerant.
>
> Perhaps his position lets him see many too many people with alcohol
> problems.
>
> Where have you been the last decade or so? Have you not realized that
there
> is little tolerance for people who drink and drive?
>
> To the original poster: Go ahead and try to do the flying thing. Be
aware,
> that if you did not change your ways, you will eventually screw up, and be
> slapped backwards, all the way to yesterday, if there is another DUI.
>
> I sincerely wish you good luck!
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Part86 > wrote:
>My second dui was the first and only time
>I drank before driving since my first one. The cop was waiting in the parking
>lot of teh bar for it to close (can you say entrapment?).

"Entrapment" must be second only to "ironic" on the list of words that
people misuse.

Anyway, if you do someday find yourself in an interview for a flying job
you'd better be willing to take responsibility for your actions when they
ask about the DUI.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Jay Honeck]

> We come to find out later that Jay
> readily admits to still driving after a few drinks!?!?! What is that all
> about? A little but of hypocrisy I think.

Apparently my point was too subtle -- let me spell it out more clearly. I
mentioned that I drive home after drinking fairly regularly -- anyone who
goes to a bar with friends, by definition, must -- for a very specific
reason.

Here it is: If I can spend the last 27 years drinking socially in bars, and
driving home, WITHOUT getting a DUI, does it not seem to highlight a problem
when a guy gets busted TWICE for DUI by age 23? As I've repeatedly stated,
he's either incredibly unlucky -- or he's got a problem knowing when to
quit.

As for this being off-topic, HE'S the one who came here, looking for advice
about whether he can fly with two DUIs. As many have already stated, I'd
say he should be able to fly -- but who the heck is going to hire him? In
a highly competitive job market, employers are just looking for ways to
"weed out" applicants.

What chance would he have, when there's 25 guys WITHOUT a DUI conviction
begging for the job?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Part86]

>If you can even think, yet alone utter that sentence, you probably
>will be unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices.

What does that mean?

[Part86]

>"Entrapment" must be second only to "ironic" on the list of words that
>people misuse.

your right I did misuse it. I wasn't lured into the crime although I was
specifically profiled in order to obtain a desired arrest and conviction
without showing signs of driving impaired.

[Peter Duniho]

"Part86" > wrote in message
...
> >"Entrapment" must be second only to "ironic" on the list of words that
> >people misuse.
>
> your right I did misuse it. I wasn't lured into the crime although I was
> specifically profiled in order to obtain a desired arrest and conviction
> without showing signs of driving impaired.

The "profiling" was no more egregious than a speed trap along a section of
road known to have a high rate of speeders.

The posts accusing you of being an alcoholic were uncalled for, and are
particular ridiculous since this issue had just been hashed out a month or
so ago with all the same "DUI equals alcoholic" silliness. However, I will
agree with those who suggest you need to completely own up to your DUI
arrests.

The police are not to blame, and were simply doing their job. Any comment
that suggests otherwise, however subtly, just isn't going to be productive
in a job interview situation. Since such comments would be untrue anyway,
you should just accept that and stop worrying about whether your arrest was
fair.

Pete

[Montblack]

("Part86" wrote)
> >"Entrapment" must be second only to "ironic" on the list of words that
> >people misuse.
>
> your right I did misuse it. I wasn't lured into the crime although I was
> specifically profiled in order to obtain a desired arrest and conviction
> without showing signs of driving impaired.


As far as the cop goes, that's a GREAT place to be. Just like fishing, you
wants to be where the fish are. Until you've had someone close to you, wiped
off the face of the earth by a drunk driver, you'll probably see the cop's
role in drinking / driving / bar-close / etc as adversarial. It ain't.

Your above reply is an example of why some people, with decades worth of
observations, seem to be under-sold on your ....explanation.

I wasn't going to jump in here tonight, but your above response had me
shaking my head. I am rooting for you, but you are so not getting it with
that mindset.

So, are you taking (flying) lessons this winter? :-)

Keep us posted.

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:15:57 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>At 45, I
>still occasionally drive home after a few beers. Anyone who goes to a bar
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>with friends does, too.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

NO! absolutely not.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:27:13 GMT, mike regish wrote:

>You can't spend time in
>a bar and stay under the legal limit.

You _can't_?

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[mike regish]

Or he rides a Harley. That was my undoing. Our town has 3 bars and a package
store in spitting distance of the police station. One bar right across the
street and the packy right next door. Even I see the same cars parked there
every night and I know for a fact that these people drink to beyond the
legal limit, get in their cars and drive home, right under the noses of the
cops. I can't imagine that they don't notice this adn also know. I don't
know anybody that can go into a bar and drink, then come out under the legal
limit. You can hit .08 just sniffing the stuff.

Anyway, if he drank like he says he did, then he's just unlucky or he ****ed
off some cop somehow.

As for getting a job, if he stays out of trouble long enough and shows some
talent for flying and is willing to put in the time to prove himself, I can
see him eventually getting hired. I'd rather hire a pilot with some real
talent and ability with a couple of distant dings in his record than some
clean cut preppy sho just hinks flying will get him chicks.

I also agree with Peter's statement, though. If he has to ask himself the
question about being passionate enough about it, he probably isn't. Doesn't
mean he shouldn't try, though. Could just be being objective with himself.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:I0fyb.165419$Dw6.652425@attbi_s02...

> As I've repeatedly stated,
> he's either incredibly unlucky -- or he's got a problem knowing when to
> quit.
>
> As for this being off-topic, HE'S the one who came here, looking for
advice
> about whether he can fly with two DUIs. As many have already stated, I'd
> say he should be able to fly -- but who the heck is going to hire him?
In
> a highly competitive job market, employers are just looking for ways to
> "weed out" applicants.
>
> What chance would he have, when there's 25 guys WITHOUT a DUI conviction
> begging for the job?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[mike regish]

Well, maybe not *can't*, but I've never seen anybody who did more than stop
for one beer do it. The .08 limit seems to be more of an arbitrary limit
that has more to do with how much and often you drink than how it affects
your ability to function. The guy I used to ride with was probably at a
constant level well over .1, but you'd never know it without smelling his
breath. I never saw him noticeably drunk. Not saying that's a good thing. He
was killing his body, but he was a safe and competent driver and he never
got a single DUI.

What gets me is how so many people *don't* get busted since bars with full
parking lots make such obviously rich "fishing grounds."

I remember a movie we saw in drunk driving school (they have schools for
that?!) where people were in a controlled setting with a breathalyzer. They
would drink measured drinks and take breathalyzer tests. One guy, kind of
small, who didn't drink much could barely talk and was obviously impaired at
..14. Another, slightly larger, who drank regularly was basically sober as a
judge (another expression I've never understood) at .14. What this was
supposed to demonstrate to us is still unclear to me. What I got from it is
what I wrote above.

mike regish

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:27:13 GMT, mike regish wrote:
>
> >You can't spend time in
> >a bar and stay under the legal limit.
>
> You _can't_?
>
> #m
> --
> http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
> http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:10:46 GMT, mike regish wrote:

>
>What gets me is how so many people *don't* get busted since bars with full
>parking lots make such obviously rich "fishing grounds."

Whenever I am away and using my car (and this is mostly always) I have a
very limited tolerance regarding alcohol. Maybe a glass of wine for dinner.
Or 1 beer or so. Or a small aperitif. I can sozialise even while 'only'
drinking soft drinks.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:42:48 GMT, mike regish wrote:

>I'd rather hire a pilot with some real
>talent and ability with a couple of distant dings in his record than some
>clean cut preppy sho just hinks flying will get him chicks.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey! NOW we are ON TOPIC. Flying and chicks! *hehe*

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Jay Honeck]

> Hey! NOW we are ON TOPIC. Flying and chicks! *hehe*

Didja ever notice, no matter how sober (sorry!) the topic, it *always* comes
back to this?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mike regish]

In a bar? Sure a lot of people drink like that in a restaurant. They're just
drinking-and socializing-in bars. Maybe some beer nuts and pretzels, but
that's about it. And for the most part, they're staying significantly longer
than diners do.

mike regish

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:10:46 GMT, mike regish wrote:
>
> >
> >What gets me is how so many people *don't* get busted since bars with
full
> >parking lots make such obviously rich "fishing grounds."
>
> Whenever I am away and using my car (and this is mostly always) I have a
> very limited tolerance regarding alcohol. Maybe a glass of wine for
dinner.
> Or 1 beer or so. Or a small aperitif. I can sozialise even while 'only'
> drinking soft drinks.
>
> #m
>
> --
> http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
> http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[G.R. Patterson III]

mike regish wrote:
>
> You can't spend time in a bar and stay under the legal limit.

That's funny. I was always able to do so.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[mike regish]

For how long? I tried the "one beer an hour" thing once. I wouldn't have
wanted to take a breathalyzer after that. Plus, the beer got warm. I don't
think you can seriously claim that somebody who goes into a bar at 8 pm and
comes out at 1:30 am will be below the legal limit after drinking for that
entire time, no matter how slowly he drinks. I've never seen anybody in a
bar who doesn't have a drink in front of him to him at all times.

mike regish

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> mike regish wrote:
> >
> > You can't spend time in a bar and stay under the legal limit.
>
> That's funny. I was always able to do so.
>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they
really
> hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy
lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:11:27 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> > wrote in Message-Id:
> >:
>
> >If I'm not that passionate about it then it doesn't make sense
> >for me to persue it.
>
> If you can even think, yet alone utter that sentence, you probably
> will be unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices.

I did not say that.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

mike regish wrote:
>
> For how long? I tried the "one beer an hour" thing once. I wouldn't have
> wanted to take a breathalyzer after that. Plus, the beer got warm. I don't
> think you can seriously claim that somebody who goes into a bar at 8 pm and
> comes out at 1:30 am will be below the legal limit after drinking for that
> entire time, no matter how slowly he drinks. I've never seen anybody in a
> bar who doesn't have a drink in front of him to him at all times.

In my 20s, I used to hit the Lighthouse in Atlanta about 8:00 and leave about
midnight. Maybe earlier if I met someone who wanted to get cuddly. I drank
three beers a night.

I got pulled over in Knoxville at 2 am once. I had had 4 beers in 5 hours. I
tested .03 on the breathalyzer.

Back then, I weighed in around 135 pounds. These days I hit the scales at 175
and drink wine instead. I still make three glasses last all night, but I no
longer hang around bars.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Bob Fry]

"mike regish" > writes:

> clean cut preppy who just thinks flying will get him chicks.

That's almost as bad as the computer nerd who thinks girls are
interested in programming.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:58:28 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>
>
>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:11:27 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
>> > wrote in Message-Id:
>> >:
>>
>> >If I'm not that passionate about it then it doesn't make sense
>> >for me to persue it.
>>
>> If you can even think, yet alone utter that sentence, you probably
>> will be unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices.
>
>I did not say that.
>

I agree. I don't know how that misattribution occurred. Sorry.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:35:15 GMT, mike regish wrote:

>In a bar?

yes.
what's the problem of drinking a good cup of tea or coffee [1]. Or a coke.

> Sure a lot of people drink like that in a restaurant. They're just

not only there.

>drinking-and socializing-in bars. Maybe some beer nuts and pretzels, but
>that's about it. And for the most part, they're staying significantly longer
>than diners do.

I know. And I have to drink beer only because I sit in the same place for 5
hours?

#m

[1] well, therefore you need _good_ tea and coffee ...
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:25:36 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> Hey! NOW we are ON TOPIC. Flying and chicks! *hehe*
>
>Didja ever notice, no matter how sober (sorry!) the topic, it *always* comes
>back to this?
>
>:-)

no way that you can come from Shrub to chicks. :-))

well, maybe ... his twin girls must be of legal age and not that bad
looking .... :-)) (but chances are high that they are of a similar mindset
like their daddy)

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[mike regish]

And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing the same
thing, right?

mike regish

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> mike regish wrote:
> >
> > For how long? I tried the "one beer an hour" thing once. I wouldn't have
> > wanted to take a breathalyzer after that. Plus, the beer got warm. I
don't
> > think you can seriously claim that somebody who goes into a bar at 8 pm
and
> > comes out at 1:30 am will be below the legal limit after drinking for
that
> > entire time, no matter how slowly he drinks. I've never seen anybody in
a
> > bar who doesn't have a drink in front of him to him at all times.
>
> In my 20s, I used to hit the Lighthouse in Atlanta about 8:00 and leave
about
> midnight. Maybe earlier if I met someone who wanted to get cuddly. I drank
> three beers a night.
>
> I got pulled over in Knoxville at 2 am once. I had had 4 beers in 5 hours.
I
> tested .03 on the breathalyzer.
>
> Back then, I weighed in around 135 pounds. These days I hit the scales at
175
> and drink wine instead. I still make three glasses last all night, but I
no
> longer hang around bars.
>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they
really
> hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy
lifting".

[mike regish]

You don't have to do a damned thing. People who go to bars to drink tea
belong in teahouses. Don't know where you're from, but if you asked for tea
in an American bar, you'd probably get beat up.

mike regish

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:35:15 GMT, mike regish wrote:
>
> >In a bar?
>
> yes.
> what's the problem of drinking a good cup of tea or coffee [1]. Or a coke.
>
> > Sure a lot of people drink like that in a restaurant. They're just
>
> not only there.
>
> >drinking-and socializing-in bars. Maybe some beer nuts and pretzels, but
> >that's about it. And for the most part, they're staying significantly
longer
> >than diners do.
>
> I know. And I have to drink beer only because I sit in the same place for
5
> hours?
>
> #m
>
> [1] well, therefore you need _good_ tea and coffee ...
> --
> http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
> http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Martin Hotze > writes:

> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:15:57 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >At 45, I
> >still occasionally drive home after a few beers. Anyone who goes to a bar
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >with friends does, too.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> NO! absolutely not.

True; more often I go home after a few gin-and-tonics, not being very
fond of beer.

Or after a few Cokes, if I'm the driver that night.

But I can have several drinks over the course of the evening and still
be *far* below the blood alcohol content required for a DUI
conviction.

The more interesting question, of course, is whether my driving is
enough impaired to worry about. At the levels I do it these days, I
don't believe it is.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Martin Hotze > writes:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:25:36 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >> Hey! NOW we are ON TOPIC. Flying and chicks! *hehe*
> >
> >Didja ever notice, no matter how sober (sorry!) the topic, it *always* comes
> >back to this?
> >
> >:-)
>
> no way that you can come from Shrub to chicks. :-))
>
> well, maybe ... his twin girls must be of legal age and not that bad
> looking .... :-)) (but chances are high that they are of a similar mindset
> like their daddy)

Trouble is, they seem to have drinking problems -- to loop back *again*.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"mike regish" > writes:

> For how long? I tried the "one beer an hour" thing once. I wouldn't have
> wanted to take a breathalyzer after that. Plus, the beer got warm. I don't
> think you can seriously claim that somebody who goes into a bar at 8 pm and
> comes out at 1:30 am will be below the legal limit after drinking for that
> entire time, no matter how slowly he drinks. I've never seen anybody in a
> bar who doesn't have a drink in front of him to him at all times.

I've done it frequently. I don't make the drink last the whole hour,
I just don't order a new one until then. And I order soft drinks
sometimes.

I'm sure if you go there *to drink* you'll drink more than this. But
if you go there to see friends, or to hear the band, it often works
out differently.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"mike regish" > writes:

> And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing the same
> thing, right?

The personal examples are to refute the claim that it's *impossible*
to spend the night in the bar without getting drunk. I think it's
been pretty thoroughly refuted at this point.

Now you're changing the question -- is it common? No, not terribly.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[mike regish]

If you read back some-you *can* do that can't you-you'll see I already
confessed that "can't" wasn't the right word.

Now I want you to tell me, honestly mind you, that you believe that the
majority of people who spend several hours in a bar drink 3 drinks or less.

mike regish

"David Dyer-Bennet" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > writes:
>
> > And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing the
same
> > thing, right?
>
> The personal examples are to refute the claim that it's *impossible*
> to spend the night in the bar without getting drunk. I think it's
> been pretty thoroughly refuted at this point.
>
> Now you're changing the question -- is it common? No, not terribly.
> --
> David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
> RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
> Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots:
<www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[mike regish]

I'm restating the question to make it understandable to those who feel the
need to nitpick rather than give a straight answer to a reasonably
straightforward question.

mike regish

"David Dyer-Bennet" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > writes:
>
> > And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing the
same
> > thing, right?
>
> The personal examples are to refute the claim that it's *impossible*
> to spend the night in the bar without getting drunk. I think it's
> been pretty thoroughly refuted at this point.
>
> Now you're changing the question -- is it common? No, not terribly.
> --
> David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
> RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
> Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots:
<www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[Peter Duniho]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:d6tyb.373432$Fm2.374121@attbi_s04...
> Now I want you to tell me, honestly mind you, that you believe that the
> majority of people who spend several hours in a bar drink 3 drinks or
less.

What's that got to do with anything? The prevalence of drunk drivers
doesn't make it any less abhorrent.

Your original statement was completely false, and your modified version is
irrelevant. It's true that getting a DUI in no way implies one is an
alcoholic, but it's completely false that there's any good excuse for
getting a DUI.

Pete

[mike regish]

My original point was that if the police really wanted to do something about
DUI, they'd wait outside the bars. Any car that has been sitting there for
more than a couple of hours likely has a drunk driver aboard. I suppose
that's wrong too, because there are exceptions, right?

There's no good excuse for getting a DUI, but getting one, or even 2 doesn't
make an alcoholic. I believe that the vast majority of alcoholics never get
DUI's. Of people who get DUI's, probably a majority are alcoholics, but not
by much of a majority I bet. They might even be the minority since a
hardcore alcoholic can function quite normally with a pretty high BAC just
due to the developed tolerance. Light drinkers who go out infrequently are
more likely to be obviously impaired.

I know it;s a benchmark that the FAA uses, and understandably so, but
without more information it's not a real ironclad assumption. People here
who say to hang up any idea of a flying career based on 2 DUI's of a 23 year
old aren't justified. Even the FAA will eventually recognize that people can
change and that maybe there are such things as bad luck, being in the wrong
place at the wrong time or having a cop with a hardon for you.

mike regish

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:d6tyb.373432$Fm2.374121@attbi_s04...
> > Now I want you to tell me, honestly mind you, that you believe that the
> > majority of people who spend several hours in a bar drink 3 drinks or
> less.
>
> What's that got to do with anything? The prevalence of drunk drivers
> doesn't make it any less abhorrent.
>
> Your original statement was completely false, and your modified version is
> irrelevant. It's true that getting a DUI in no way implies one is an
> alcoholic, but it's completely false that there's any good excuse for
> getting a DUI.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Part86]

>The police are not to blame, and were simply doing their job. Any comment
>that suggests otherwise, however subtly, just isn't going to be productive
>in a job interview situation. Since such comments would be untrue anyway,
>you should just accept that and stop worrying about whether your arrest was
>fair.
>
>Pete

I completely agree with you about owning up and I take full responsisbility.
The only reason I mentioned the circumstance was to illustrate the fact that I
wasn't drinking and driving all the time or wrecklessly like one might assume
if I was in fact an alcoholic.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

[top-posting fixed]

"mike regish" > writes:

> "David Dyer-Bennet" > wrote in message
> ...

> > "mike regish" > writes:

> > > And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing
> > > the same thing, right?

> > The personal examples are to refute the claim that it's *impossible*
> > to spend the night in the bar without getting drunk. I think it's
> > been pretty thoroughly refuted at this point.

> > Now you're changing the question -- is it common? No, not terribly.

> If you read back some-you *can* do that can't you-you'll see I already
> confessed that "can't" wasn't the right word.

> Now I want you to tell me, honestly mind you, that you believe that the
> majority of people who spend several hours in a bar drink 3 drinks or less.

Um, already did essentially that, in the message you're responding
to. See that quote up there?
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[Part86]

Another thing to point out is that after you have one dui there is absolutely
NO tolerance as far as blood alcohol level goes. You can't have ANY alcohol in
your blood not .001 or its another dui.

This is another reason someone with multiple duis may not be an alcoholic. A
lot of second dui arrests occur the next morning from the residual alcohol left
in the blood stream. Again, I'm not supporting drinking and driving just
showing that 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 in this case, and there are MANY
multiple dui offenders who aren't sunstance abusers.

[Part86]

>>
>>What gets me is how so many people *don't* get busted since bars with full
>>parking lots make such obviously rich "fishing grounds."

because legally, police aren't supposed to do this. It is frowned upon, but
more importantly, it presents more of a legal problem for prosecution when it
goes to court and has a likely chance of being thrown out.

[Rob Perkins]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:16:53 GMT, "mike regish" >
wrote:

>You don't have to do a damned thing. People who go to bars to drink tea
>belong in teahouses. Don't know where you're from, but if you asked for tea
>in an American bar, you'd probably get beat up.

Don't know where _you're_ from, but every bar in America I've ever
been to has been remarkably accommodating to guys like me who never
order alcohol.

Rob

[MRQB]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:1D3yb.153952$Dw6.618565@attbi_s02...
> > Nice. He says he has two DUIs and you label him as an alcoholic.
> > ("practicing" or not)
>
> Harsh, I know -- but here's how I figure this.
>
> 1. In younger days, I drove under the influence too many times myself.
> 2. I am not a "knee-jerk prohibitionist" when it comes to alcohol. At 45,
I
> still occasionally drive home after a few beers. Anyone who goes to a bar
> with friends does, too.

Not true. I go out to the bar with friends but we all take a cab to the bar
and take cab's home. It costs $5 to $30.00 each way. Idd rather pay that
then face court time, attorney's fees, evaluations, fines, loss of license,
loss of job, embarrassment, killing someone, ect.



The question is how much do you want to spend? $5,000 for dui or $30.00 for
a cab or if your to far away from home get have some one drop you off at a
motel and take a cab from there. If you cannot afford a cab or motel then
you should not be drinking. I don't feel sorry anyone that has got a DUI it
is there fault for making the drive don't drive decision. I my self will
take the lowest cost method.

[Rob Perkins]

On 30 Nov 2003 06:42:39 GMT, (Part86) wrote:

>>If you can even think, yet alone utter that sentence, you probably
>>will be unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices.
>
>What does that mean?

What it means is that you've got to have more determination than the
sentence suggests in order to get through the rough spots of flight
training.

I was disillusioned at least once in basic flight training, once in
cross countries, and three times during test prep, all points where
the only thing that got me past them was my Missouri ancestry. Put
another way, I was too stubborn to quit.

You make this a goal, you're going to have to see it through no matter
how your passion for it waxes or wanes.

Rob

[mike regish]

"Well, maybe not *can't*, but I've never seen anybody who did more than stop
for one beer do it. The .08 limit seems to be more of an arbitrary limit
that has more to do with how much and often you drink than how it affects
your ability to function. The guy I used to ride with was probably at a
constant level well over .1, but you'd never know it without smelling his
breath. I never saw him noticeably drunk. Not saying that's a good thing. He
was killing his body, but he was a safe and competent driver and he never
got a single DUI."

Quoted from several messages back.

Try a little harder next time.

mike regish

"David Dyer-Bennet" > wrote in message
...
>
> Um, already did essentially that, in the message you're responding
> to. See that quote up there?
> --
> David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
> RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
> Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots:
<www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[mike regish]

That's one I've never heard. What state?

mike regish

"Part86" > wrote in message
...
> Another thing to point out is that after you have one dui there is
absolutely
> NO tolerance as far as blood alcohol level goes. You can't have ANY
alcohol in
> your blood not .001 or its another dui.
>
> This is another reason someone with multiple duis may not be an alcoholic.
A
> lot of second dui arrests occur the next morning from the residual alcohol
left
> in the blood stream. Again, I'm not supporting drinking and driving just
> showing that 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 in this case, and there are MANY
> multiple dui offenders who aren't sunstance abusers.

[mike regish]

Well, I'm from Mass. There are ocassional coffee pots, but not often. I can
honestly say that in all my years of bar hopping, I've never seen anybody
drinking tea. And most of the people drinking coffee or soda are recovering
alcoholics who can't give up the bar life.

mike regish

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:16:53 GMT, "mike regish" >
> wrote:
>
> >You don't have to do a damned thing. People who go to bars to drink tea
> >belong in teahouses. Don't know where you're from, but if you asked for
tea
> >in an American bar, you'd probably get beat up.
>
> Don't know where _you're_ from, but every bar in America I've ever
> been to has been remarkably accommodating to guys like me who never
> order alcohol.
>
> Rob

[Rob Perkins]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:37:26 GMT, Martin Hotze >
wrote:

>Hey! NOW we are ON TOPIC. Flying and chicks! *hehe*

It takes an awful lot of high quality feed before chicks are large
enough to kill and eat. Doesn't seem like motivation enough to get a
pilot's license to *me*.

;-)

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> Not true. I go out to the bar with friends but we all take a cab to the
bar
> and take cab's home. It costs $5 to $30.00 each way. Idd rather pay that
> then face court time, attorney's fees, evaluations, fines, loss of
license,
> loss of job, embarrassment, killing someone, ect.

If I feel impaired, I do just that.

However, unlike my in long-past college days, I no longer drink "for
effect"... Nowadays I would rather have three really good beers, than ten
really cheap beers.

However, I'm not sure if the .08 Iowa blood alcohol limit would allow me to
feel impaired. I suppose that's a valid question I should be asking, and
testing. Anyone got a breath-alyzer I can borrow :-)?

(I can just see this one: "Honest, Mary -- I'm drinking for *science*!")
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

mike regish wrote:
>
> And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing the same
> thing, right?

Of course not, but the people at *my* table usually behaved in roughly the same
way.

Seems to me that the difference between you and me in this matter is that I like
to drink. Drinking to you, however, is simply an unavoidable process you have to
go through to get drunk.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Part86 wrote:
>
> your right I did misuse it. I wasn't lured into the crime although I was
> specifically profiled in order to obtain a desired arrest and conviction
> without showing signs of driving impaired.

If you actually were over the limit, you have no idea whether or not you were
showing signs of driving impaired.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Peter Duniho]

"Part86" > wrote in message
...
> because legally, police aren't supposed to do this.

Why not?

> It is frowned upon,

I can believe that. But people usually frown upon actions that get them
into trouble. No big surprise there.

> but
> more importantly, it presents more of a legal problem for prosecution when
it
> goes to court and has a likely chance of being thrown out.

How so? I see no legality that would get a DUI case thrown out of court
just because a police officer was waiting for a drunk person to come out of
a bar and then get into a car.

If the officer pulled over the person *solely* because they saw that person
come out of a bar, that's one thing (and probably is illegal). But
presumably, an office would note other signs of inebriation in the suspect,
while they are walking to their car, when they try to unlock the car, as
they start it, and then finally as they drive off. Those are all solid
reasons for an arrest, regardless of where the officer was sitting or where
the suspect was when they first saw the suspect.

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, I'm from Mass. There are ocassional coffee pots, but not often. I
can
> honestly say that in all my years of bar hopping, I've never seen anybody
> drinking tea. And most of the people drinking coffee or soda are
recovering
> alcoholics who can't give up the bar life.

I'm with Mike on this one. Order tea in a bar around here, and you'll get
some mighty strange looks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mike regish]

You need to read more and better. Would you like me to use smaller words?

mike regish

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> mike regish wrote:
> >
> > And you noticed the vast majority of patrons in those bars doing the
same
> > thing, right?
>
> Of course not, but the people at *my* table usually behaved in roughly the
same
> way.
>
> Seems to me that the difference between you and me in this matter is that
I like
> to drink. Drinking to you, however, is simply an unavoidable process you
have to
> go through to get drunk.
>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they
really
> hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy
lifting".

[mike regish]

Oh, puhleeze.

mike regish

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Part86 wrote:
> >
> > your right I did misuse it. I wasn't lured into the crime although I was
> > specifically profiled in order to obtain a desired arrest and conviction
> > without showing signs of driving impaired.
>
> If you actually were over the limit, you have no idea whether or not you
were
> showing signs of driving impaired.
>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they
really
> hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy
lifting".

[mike regish]

What are you smoking?

mike regish

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Seems to me that the difference between you and me in this matter is that
I like
> to drink. Drinking to you, however, is simply an unavoidable process you
have to
> go through to get drunk.
>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they
really
> hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy
lifting".

[Rob Perkins]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:26:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>I'm with Mike on this one. Order tea in a bar around here, and you'll get
>some mighty strange looks.

Hmm. Maybe it's 'cause I usually order a soft drink, and not tea. And
I never go to a bar unless there's a restauraunt attached as well,
even if I do order the soft drinks from the bar from time to time.

I dunno. I've just never been particularly persecuted for not
drinking. Got teased a bit by collegues that were, but nothing not
good-natured.

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> I dunno. I've just never been particularly persecuted for not
> drinking. Got teased a bit by collegues that were, but nothing not
> good-natured.

You *never* drink? Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?

Just curious, but why not?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>I dunno. I've just never been particularly persecuted for not
>>drinking. Got teased a bit by collegues that were, but nothing not
>>good-natured.
>
>
> You *never* drink? Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
> peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?

Why ruin a perfectly good cup of cocoa? Or for that matter, why let good
grape juice spoil? It made sense in the days before refrigeration was
available, but is hardly necessary anymore. :)

[Part86]

>How so? I see no legality that would get a DUI case thrown out of court
>just because a police officer was waiting for a drunk person to come out of
>a bar and then get into a car.

Are you a lawyer? My lawyer said it's illegal.

>If the officer pulled over the person *solely* because they saw that person
>come out of a bar, that's one thing

That's the one thing I'm talking about. It shows that the officer had an
agenda. My friend just got pulled over on the way home from a bar because he
had no front plate. The cop had him do a field sobriety test. You think the
plate was the real reason? I don't know if you are just nieve or have too much
faith in the integrity of all police officers.

[Part86]

>>>If you can even think, yet alone utter that sentence, you probably
>>>will be unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices.
>>
>>What does that mean?
>
>What it means is that you've got to have more determination than the
>sentence suggests in order to get through the rough spots of flight
>training.
>
>I was disillusioned at least once in basic flight training, once in
>cross countries, and three times during test prep, all points where
>the only thing that got me past them was my Missouri ancestry. Put
>another way, I was too stubborn to quit.
>
>You make this a goal, you're going to have to see it through no matter
>how your passion for it waxes or wanes.
>
>Rob

I agree, but I posted that I have never been in a small aircraft or flown a
plane so I meant that I need to at least be up in the air before I can make
that determination.

[Part86]

>That's one I've never heard. What state?
>
California, and believe me it's true. The second dui here requires an 18 month
dui program and I know everything there is to know at this point.

Some other interesting bits of information for you. You can get a dui in CA if
you are sleeping in your car, in the back seat. You can get one if you go in
the passenger side to get cigarettes out of the glove box. You can get a dui on
skates, skate board, bycicle. If the keys are on your possession or within
300ft of you and you are in or near your car drunk they can charge you with
dui. This is the case of a few people I talked I actually talked to. They
pulled over to sleep and sober up and a cop came to the car knocked on the
window and gave them a dui. I guess the reasoning is that you must have been
drunk when you drove there. Some of you will think this is craziness and I'm
lying but I swear to you I am not. They are trying to pass laws that make it
possible for you to get another dui if you are a PASSENGER in someone's car who
is driving. This will most likely never pass but in CA you never know.

>mike regish
>
>"Part86" > wrote in message
...
>> Another thing to point out is that after you have one dui there is
>absolutely
>> NO tolerance as far as blood alcohol level goes. You can't have ANY
>alcohol in
>> your blood not .001 or its another dui.
>>
>> This is another reason someone with multiple duis may not be an alcoholic.
>A
>> lot of second dui arrests occur the next morning from the residual alcohol
>left
>> in the blood stream. Again, I'm not supporting drinking and driving just
>> showing that 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 in this case, and there are MANY
>> multiple dui offenders who aren't sunstance abusers.
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Part86" > wrote in message
...
> Are you a lawyer? My lawyer said it's illegal.

But he didn't get you an acquittal. I'd say he was probably wrong.

> That's the one thing I'm talking about. It shows that the officer had an
> agenda.

The officer had *better* have an agenda. That's the whole point of his job.
His agenda is to arrest people who drink too much and then get behind the
wheel of a car.

> My friend just got pulled over on the way home from a bar because he
> had no front plate. The cop had him do a field sobriety test. You think
the
> plate was the real reason?

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. Your friend was in violation of at least
two laws, one that the officer could easily perceive before the arrest, and
possibly two.

Why do YOU think your friend got pulled over?

> I don't know if you are just nieve or have too much
> faith in the integrity of all police officers.

The word is "naive". As for "all police officers", what's that got to do
with anything? The only thing at question here are the police officers
waiting outside of bars, for drunks to get into their cars.

Just how much integrity does a person have if they get behind the wheel
drunk? Less than a police officer waiting outside a bar, that's for sure.

Pete

[Peter]

>>"Part86" > wrote in message
...

>>>Another thing to point out is that after you have one dui there is
>>>absolutely NO tolerance as far as blood alcohol level goes. You can't
>>>have ANY alcohol in your blood not .001 or its another dui.

>>That's one I've never heard. What state?
>>
>
> California, and believe me it's true. The second dui here requires an 18 month
> dui program and I know everything there is to know at this point.

I don't see any such provision in the California statutes - could you cite
a section of the Vehicle Code or other official document? At least one of
your DUIs came when you were under 21 and current CA law specifies a BAC of
..01% for minors (VC 23136) as compared to the .08% level for adults, but
that's independent of any prior DUI convictions. The penalties go up for
repeat offenders (VC 23560) but I have never heard of any zero tolerance
policy specifically for those with a previous conviction.

[Montblack]

("Peter" wrote)
> > You *never* drink? Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
> > peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?

> Why ruin a perfectly good cup of cocoa? Or for that matter, why let good
> grape juice spoil? It made sense in the days before refrigeration was
> available, but is hardly necessary anymore. :)


I'm with Peter on this one - if you change it to never drink coffee.

Never-never ever-ever touch the stuff. I like all the things they put into
coffee - just leave out the coffee please. I might have sipped 4oz, or
maybe even 6oz, of the sludge in the past 30 years - total.

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif

[Rob Perkins]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 04:01:39 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> I dunno. I've just never been particularly persecuted for not
>> drinking. Got teased a bit by collegues that were, but nothing not
>> good-natured.
>
>You *never* drink?

Not alcohol. In fact, when eating out, I usually order water.
Restaurants tend to overcharge for soft drinks and fruit juice. I like
cranberry juice at home; the flavor is good and it's said to be a
natural diuretic.

> Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
>peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?

Never tried wine, or Schnapps. For that matter, I've never tried
coffee, or black tea. Or tobacco.

>Just curious, but why not?

I grew up avoiding them, in connection with my religious faith. I also
chose a circle of friends as a teen who avoided all that stuff. Then I
went to a college where all the students agree not to imbibe. It's how
I survived the teenage years without becoming addicted to something.

Today I believe I avoid a world of trouble that way. No addictions to
any social substance are possible, if you never try them. Like you,
alcoholism exists in my family, and I'm far too compulsive in too many
harmless ways, (and one not so harmless in the long run,) to expect it
could never happen to me.

Rob

[Rob Perkins]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:42:26 -0600, "Montblack"
> wrote:

>I'm with Peter on this one - if you change it to never drink coffee.
>
>Never-never ever-ever touch the stuff. I like all the things they put into
>coffee - just leave out the coffee please.

Tell me about it. Starbucks can make a delightful drink called a
"steamer", which is no more than hot milk with one or two of their
flavorings.

'Course, at $2 or $3 each, I'll just pour myself a glass of milk and
nuke it in the microwave, thankyewverymuch.

Rob

[Rob Perkins]

On 01 Dec 2003 05:11:02 GMT, (Part86) wrote:

>I agree, but I posted that I have never been in a small aircraft or flown a
>plane so I meant that I need to at least be up in the air before I can make
>that determination.

Then, by all means, budget yourself about 10 hours of training and see
if you dig it. By the fourth hour or so, if you're not very
enthusiastic about flying then a career in flying might not be for
you. And you'll know before you've spent your 500th dollar.

If you can, try and find a stick-and-rudder tailwheel type aircraft
for something really visceral. It might cost a little more (or might
not, depending on the aircraft you find), but I know I don't regret
having flown in a Piper Cub for basic presolo flight training.

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> >You *never* drink?
>
> Not alcohol. In fact, when eating out, I usually order water.
> Restaurants tend to overcharge for soft drinks and fruit juice.

Me, too, actually. I drink filtered ice water with every meal. (Hey --
let's start arguing about how selling bottled water is like printing money!
:-)

> > Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
> >peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?
>
> Never tried wine, or Schnapps. For that matter, I've never tried
> coffee, or black tea. Or tobacco.

My goodness -- a sheltered life you have lived! I no longer partake in
tobacco -- haven't touched any for 17 years now -- for the obvious health
reasons. But if they ever invented a proven "safe" version, I would love to
have a good smoke again.

And Schnapps just goes SO well with hot cocoa in front of a blazing hot
fire, on a cold winter's night...

I've always figured that the old saying was "All things in moderation",
Rob -- not just "some things"...
;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Big John]

Mike

Tried to stay out of this cat fight but Just had to follow up your
'straight' line.

"Only inTexas" <G> (Home of the Long Necks)

Big John


On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:16:53 GMT, "mike regish" >
wrote:

>You don't have to do a damned thing. People who go to bars to drink tea
>belong in teahouses. Don't know where you're from, but if you asked for tea
>in an American bar, you'd probably get beat up.
>
>mike regish
>
>"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:35:15 GMT, mike regish wrote:
>>
>> >In a bar?
>>
>> yes.
>> what's the problem of drinking a good cup of tea or coffee [1]. Or a coke.
>>
>> > Sure a lot of people drink like that in a restaurant. They're just
>>
>> not only there.
>>
>> >drinking-and socializing-in bars. Maybe some beer nuts and pretzels, but
>> >that's about it. And for the most part, they're staying significantly
>longer
>> >than diners do.
>>
>> I know. And I have to drink beer only because I sit in the same place for
>5
>> hours?
>>
>> #m
>>
>> [1] well, therefore you need _good_ tea and coffee ...
>> --
>> http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
>> http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Part86 wrote:
>
> That's the one thing I'm talking about. It shows that the officer had an
> agenda. My friend just got pulled over on the way home from a bar because he
> had no front plate. The cop had him do a field sobriety test. You think the
> plate was the real reason?

It probably was the reason for pulling him over. His behaviour after being
pulled over or the smell of alcohol on his breath then became a good reason
for a sobriety test. Beer is one of the most odiferous things you could drink.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Rob Perkins]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:01:40 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> >You *never* drink?
>>
>> Not alcohol. In fact, when eating out, I usually order water.
>> Restaurants tend to overcharge for soft drinks and fruit juice.
>
>Me, too, actually. I drink filtered ice water with every meal. (Hey --
>let's start arguing about how selling bottled water is like printing money!
>:-)

Hardly an argument there. I think when you buy it you're buying the
bottle, not the water. If only I had a mountain spring of my own, I
could afford that Cherokee Six!

>My goodness -- a sheltered life you have lived!

Not since 1989. Interestingly, when I was living in Switzerland I did
a lot of travel by train, and developed a significant tolerance to
second-hand smoke while there, since you can actually get seats in the
smoking car during rush hour.

These days, the smoke makes my head spin if the guy at the traffic
light two cars up is smoking and taps his ashes out the window. It's
powerful-smellin' stuff.

>I've always figured that the old saying was "All things in moderation",
>Rob -- not just "some things"...

Well, Jay, look at it this way: I succumb to my general compulsions in
moderation, by limiting them to video games, crime-scene television
shows, and Usenet participance. And flying! :-D

(And, this kind of good-natured ribbing is exactly what I meant by the
non-persecuting sort of teasing I've gotten my entire life.)

Rob

[Dennis O'Connor]

A street bull don't care what 'substance' you've been abusing... If you are
obviously intox, he's gonna field test your reflexes, and/or breathalyze
you... If your lawyer gets you off later in court, you get off... But you
are gonna be off the street for the rest of that night...

Denny

[mike regish]

That's one of my favorite Steppenwolf songs.

mike (I love my attitude problem) regish

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > wrote:
>
> > Even the FAA will eventually recognize that people can
> > change and that maybe there are such things as bad luck, being in the
wrong
> > place at the wrong time or having a cop with a hardon for you.
>
>
> or you call it bad attitude.
>
> #m
> --
> Politician never lie. They just tell their own truth.
> (Dave in r.a.p.)

[Dennis O'Connor]

Booze just makes me sleepy...
Denny
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:D2zyb.376643$Fm2.393213@attbi_s04...
> > I dunno. I've just never been particularly persecuted for not
> > drinking. Got teased a bit by collegues that were, but nothing not
> > good-natured.
>
> You *never* drink? Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
> peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?
>
> Just curious, but why not?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[mike regish]

Same here. I can't even get through one beer if I'm not doing something.
Somebody mentioned spending a night in a bar and alternating alcohol with
non-alcohol drinks and only dring 3 drinks in an evening (several hours).
I've tried that and it gives me a headache.

About the only time nice cold beer tastes really good to me is after
working in the yard on a hot day. And even then, I drink for effect, not
flavor. But that's when the flavor seems actually good. I don't want
something sweet and I've usually done enough water to float a battleship. I
can't understand people who say they drink because they like to an not for
effect. It's a drug. You put drugs in your body for effect. That's what
drugs are for.

mike regish

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Booze just makes me sleepy...
> Denny
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:D2zyb.376643$Fm2.393213@attbi_s04...
> > > I dunno. I've just never been particularly persecuted for not
> > > drinking. Got teased a bit by collegues that were, but nothing not
> > > good-natured.
> >
> > You *never* drink? Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
> > peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?
> >
> > Just curious, but why not?
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[Gene Seibel]

I also very seldom drink alcohol. I also started down that path
because of a strict religious upbringing. I don't believe it'll send
you to hell or anything, but I've seen a lot of pain and suffering
come from alcohol, such as involvment in nearly half of 40,000 auto
accidents per year and domestic abuse, but have never been in a
situation that I thought would be improved by alcohol. I enjoy life
and want to be fully aware of all there is to enjoy. But the main
reason is probably that it can look very hypocritical for a person to
drink and tell their teenagers not to. I figured it was one very small
sacrifice I could make to remain credible to my child and steer her
away from what can be a destructive habit in some. There are other
benefits, such as I will never face a medical issue because of DUI.
And I can't see anything bad in that. I'm curious why people do
drink......
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




> >
> >You *never* drink?
>
> Not alcohol. In fact, when eating out, I usually order water.
> Restaurants tend to overcharge for soft drinks and fruit juice. I like
> cranberry juice at home; the flavor is good and it's said to be a
> natural diuretic.
>
> > Not even wine with a meal? Or, perhaps, a little
> >peppermint Schnapps in your hot cocoa on a cold winter's night?
>
> Never tried wine, or Schnapps. For that matter, I've never tried
> coffee, or black tea. Or tobacco.
>
> >Just curious, but why not?
>
> I grew up avoiding them, in connection with my religious faith. I also
> chose a circle of friends as a teen who avoided all that stuff. Then I
> went to a college where all the students agree not to imbibe. It's how
> I survived the teenage years without becoming addicted to something.
>
> Today I believe I avoid a world of trouble that way. No addictions to
> any social substance are possible, if you never try them. Like you,
> alcoholism exists in my family, and I'm far too compulsive in too many
> harmless ways, (and one not so harmless in the long run,) to expect it
> could never happen to me.
>
> Rob

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article <osQxb.341166$Tr4.1030000@attbi_s03>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> My problem is that I have two DUI's and I don't know how that effects my
>> opportunities. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? I'm 23
>years old
>> and I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd like to
>fly.
>
>If you are still a practicing alcoholic, the answer is "no".
>
>However, even if you're now sober, I suspect you'll have a hard time getting
>your 3rd Class Medical approved.

It seems to be hit and miss. Contact a local AME (aviation medical
examiner) you can find one by looking in the database at
http://www.landings.com and ask their advise/opinion. They are really the
ones that can tell you.
As for becoming a professional pilot... it's hard to say. Given the
large number of people that want to fly and have clean records their
airlines are not likely to go with someone with any DUI/DWI's. Part 135
thou could be a possibility, or becoming a full time CFI. From a
liability standpoint it's a huge risk.
But start buy calling an AME and asking about getting a class III
medical (private pilot) or join/contact AOPA (http://www.aopa.org) and ask
(I'm fairly certain you have to be a member to get advise on medicals
thou).

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, Jay, look at it this way: I succumb to my general compulsions in
> moderation, by limiting them to video games, crime-scene television
> shows, and Usenet participance. And flying! :-D
>
> (And, this kind of good-natured ribbing is exactly what I meant by the
> non-persecuting sort of teasing I've gotten my entire life.)

Not drinking or smoking is one thing, but THIS? Crime scene television
shows!? NOW you've crossed the line, buddy, and stepped into a serious
mental-health care issue...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> About the only time nice cold beer tastes really good to me is after
> working in the yard on a hot day. And even then, I drink for effect, not
> flavor. But that's when the flavor seems actually good. I don't want
> something sweet and I've usually done enough water to float a battleship.
I
> can't understand people who say they drink because they like to an not for
> effect. It's a drug. You put drugs in your body for effect. That's what
> drugs are for.

You are clearly drinking the wrong beer, Mike! :-)

I won't argue that the effects of a few beers are not nice -- but as I get
older the line has grown fuzzy between "a nice buzz" and "a nice nap".

This is why I prefer three really good beers to six really cheap beers!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
Part86 > wrote:
>I didn't intend to have my post fuel an argument about alcoholism but some of
>the responses have been really ignorant.
>
>If you think it's logical to associate how many times someone has been caught
>drinking while driving with how much they actually do it then you have a
>serious judgement problem.

You state that your are 23 years old and have two DUIs. The legal age
to drink (USA) is 21. Hence in two years time you have (at least) twice
join extermely poor judgement. This error in judgement endangered your
life and the life of those on the road around you. The FAA is actually a
pretty 'nice' governement organization but they take drinking and flying
VERY seriously.
If you only drank twice a year or conusume alcohol 24/7 is NOT the
issue. It's the poor choices that you have made in a very short period of
time.

>My friend IS an alcoholic. He drives drunk every night after 5 shots minimum.
>He's been pulled over 4 times and been let go. He has no DUI's. Now that is
>good luck. I have the opposite luck. My second dui was the first and only time
>I drank before driving since my first one. The cop was waiting in the parking
>lot of teh bar for it to close (can you say entrapment?).

No one here cares about luck or the way that drinking and driving is
handled in the USA (which is fairly poorly). They are only commenting on
the choices that you have made and how they relate to aviation. The FAA
has very set polices on these things.
Unfair? well

>**** happens sometimes! I drink maybe once every two weeks. Maybe some may
>consider that alcohol abuse but I don't.

Abuse? Well that is a bit harsh. Stupid choices, that's dead on. Its
not our fault that you drunk, drove and got caught. The fact that several
other people do not get caught is not of any concern to the FAA.

>Thanks to those who stayed on topic and gave me some helpful advice I
>appreciate it.

You got both. You should call a local AME (can get info from database
at http://www.landings.com) and ask.

[Jay Honeck]

> And I can't see anything bad in that. I'm curious why people do
> drink......

Nothing wrong with not drinking alcohol, Gene -- I often go days and weeks
without myself.

However, the health benefits of drinking in moderation are hard to dispute.
A glass or two of beer or wine at the end of a long, stressful day can only
be described as "just what the doctor ordered" -- both mentally AND
physically.

You are right, however, that drinking is like a lottery -- you never know
who is going to be susceptible to the "Dark Side" of alcohol. It's a
wonder that my oldest sister and I can drink in moderation, without ill
effect -- in fact, with enhanced *healthful* effect -- while my youngest
sister has spent three decades in the depths of alcoholism and drug abuse.

But I *do* worry about my children, not knowing whether they have the "evil
gene" of alcoholism. Not knowing if they will be able to drink socially and
safely is a deep concern, given my family history -- but I don't think our
not drinking will effect their fate one way or the other.

When they go to high school and (more prevalently )college, alcohol will be
everywhere, and they WILL partake, guaranteed. I think it may be the
"anti-alcohol" movement on campus that has romanticized drinking for the
kids, and made "binge drinking" into an Olympic sport on campuses
nationwide.

Given this certainty, drinking RESPONSIBLY is something I want them to see,
and emulate.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Snowbird]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<8RHyb.379510$Tr4.1116073@attbi_s03>...

> Me, too, actually. I drink filtered ice water with every meal. (Hey --
> let's start arguing about how selling bottled water is like printing money!
> :-)

Mee! Meee! Meeeee! Actually what we saw (we being our lab) was
an article in a paper about some water which was supposed to be
"specially treated" so as not to clump and to absorb better. It
cost an ungodly amount, and the so-called editor who vetted it and
allowed it to be printed demonstrated a credulity incredible in
a responsible journalist.

At this point the whole lab resolved to stop doing research and
start making money by bottling some of our ultra-purified water.

> And Schnapps just goes SO well with hot cocoa in front of a blazing hot
> fire, on a cold winter's night...

SO, Jay, your chance for a free plug -- got a blazing hot fire
in the lobby of your little hostel?

> I've always figured that the old saying was "All things in moderation",

I prefer the motto "anything worth doing is worth over-doing" *g*

Sydney

[Jim Weir]

To quote Jackie Gleason...

"I do not drink for the social reasons, nor for the light-hearted tinkle of ice
in the glass. I drink only for the ancient and honorable purpose of getting
bagged."

jg












Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[mike regish]

I've tried those dark beers and some of the microbrews, but I guess they're
an acquired taste cause I don't like em. Seems that no matter what I'm
drinking, it's got to be cold and it's got to be at a steady pace. If I
drink too fast, naturally I get too drunk. If I drink too slow, I get a
headache. If I stop at some point, I will be asleep, or wanting to be, in
about an hour.

About the only day I do any serious drinking is on the 4th of July. We
always have a cookout/pool party at our house and I'm not going anywhere
anyway. Usually I just get Bud Ice (I know, Bud's not really beer) and have
a steady buzz for the afternoon and however far into the evening we go.
After that, I'm done. Bedtime.

mike regish


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:kZOyb.380601$HS4.3130494@attbi_s01...
> > About the only time nice cold beer tastes really good to me is after
> > working in the yard on a hot day. And even then, I drink for effect, not
> > flavor. But that's when the flavor seems actually good. I don't want
> > something sweet and I've usually done enough water to float a
battleship.
> I
> > can't understand people who say they drink because they like to an not
for
> > effect. It's a drug. You put drugs in your body for effect. That's what
> > drugs are for.
>
> You are clearly drinking the wrong beer, Mike! :-)
>
> I won't argue that the effects of a few beers are not nice -- but as I get
> older the line has grown fuzzy between "a nice buzz" and "a nice nap".
>
> This is why I prefer three really good beers to six really cheap beers!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Gene Seibel wrote:
>
> But the main
> reason is probably that it can look very hypocritical for a person to
> drink and tell their teenagers not to.

My father had that attitude. I vaguely remember getting a sip of his beer at
about age six, but he didn't drink in my presence after that until I was old
enough to do so. It's possible that he did on the rare occasions that he and my
mother went out without the kids.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

mike regish wrote:
>
> I
> can't understand people who say they drink because they like to an not for
> effect.

You're drinking the wrong thing. If I didn't like the taste, I wouldn't drink.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Jay Honeck]

> About the only day I do any serious drinking is on the 4th of July. We
> always have a cookout/pool party at our house and I'm not going anywhere
> anyway. Usually I just get Bud Ice (I know, Bud's not really beer) and
have
> a steady buzz for the afternoon and however far into the evening we go.
> After that, I'm done. Bedtime.

It's fun to own a hotel in a Big Ten college town. Football Saturdays
around here are absolutely insane, with 100,000 people descending on a town
of 65,000 -- ALL intent on partying until they DROP. We are always full,
at any price -- usually with the opposing team's fans.

What's the most fun is to watch what happens to the older alumnus. They
come to town, head to the tail-gate parties at 8 AM with all the young
folks, and start pounding beers like there's no tomorrow -- just like they
did in college!

Trouble is, they're in their 50s now, and the old metabolism ain't quite the
same anymore, so...

....they're usually back at the inn right after the game, snoring! The
rest of them head downtown to hit the bars and keep the party rolling --
especially if "their" team won the game.

How do you know when you're "old"? When what used to be the "warm up" is
now the entire exercise! ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> SO, Jay, your chance for a free plug -- got a blazing hot fire
> in the lobby of your little hostel?

Ha! DOUBLE ha!

When we asked our insurance company what insurance would cost if we
installed gas-fired fireplaces into our 20 year old hotel, they point-blank
told us they would NOT insure us, at any price. Since then, they have
DOUBLED our insurance -- probably as punishment just for ASKING something so
stupid! (Ask me what I think of insurance companies!)

We'll have to head over to my house for a fire when you guys visit...

> > I've always figured that the old saying was "All things in moderation",
>
> I prefer the motto "anything worth doing is worth over-doing" *g*

NOW we're talking. However, we'll just have to keep those horrible
"Schnapp's Hangovers" to a minimum... I don't believe anything hurts worse!
:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:VdQyb.387223$Fm2.398684@attbi_s04...
> When we asked our insurance company what insurance would cost if we
> installed gas-fired fireplaces into our 20 year old hotel, they
point-blank
> told us they would NOT insure us, at any price.

Even a single fireplace in the lobby?

I can understand their hesitance for in-room fireplaces, but it seems silly
of them to not permit one in a (presumably) well-supervised location.

Pete

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:10:09 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:VdQyb.387223$Fm2.398684@attbi_s04...
>> When we asked our insurance company what insurance would cost if we
>> installed gas-fired fireplaces into our 20 year old hotel, they
>point-blank
>> told us they would NOT insure us, at any price.
>
>Even a single fireplace in the lobby?
>
>I can understand their hesitance for in-room fireplaces, but it seems silly
>of them to not permit one in a (presumably) well-supervised location.

Some guest turns it off. Somebody else turns it back on without
lighting it. . . . . What's that smell? BOOM!

Don

[karl gruber]

********Some guest turns it off. Somebody else turns it back on without
lighting it. . . . . What's that smell? BOOM!*******


The manufacturers have thought of that decades ago. Gas fireplaces will not
emit gas unless it is lit.

Karl

[Peter Duniho]

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> Some guest turns it off. Somebody else turns it back on without
> lighting it. . . . . What's that smell? BOOM!

Why would a guest be messing with the fireplace in the lobby? It should
have a secured control, operable only by hotel staff.

In any case, while you may be able to find a very old gas fireplace that has
only a single valve, any modern unit (which is presumably what Jay would
install) will have a pilot light and a secondary switch for the main gas.
Unless the pilot light is already lit, the main gas won't turn on, and if
the pilot light goes out for some reason, the gas for the pilot light will
shut off automatically as well.

Even if guests *are* permitted to turn the lobby fireplace off and on, that
still should not be a problem.

Pete

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:57:27 -0800, "karl gruber"
> wrote:

>********Some guest turns it off. Somebody else turns it back on without
>lighting it. . . . . What's that smell? BOOM!*******
>
>
>The manufacturers have thought of that decades ago. Gas fireplaces will not
>emit gas unless it is lit.

Gaslogs from Home Depot will. I've got one running in the living room
right now. Sniff. sniff

Don

[Jim Weir]

Nope. When your mind makes appointments that your body can't keep.

Jim


"Jay Honeck" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


->How do you know when you're "old"? When what used to be the "warm up" is
->now the entire exercise! ;-)




Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Steve]

Not driving with any alcohol in the system was probably part of his
probation from the first DUI. Violating that would not amount to
another seperate DUI but it could have punishment of its own. In CA
proving the second DUI occurred requires the same things as the first
DUI. The prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you
drove a vehicle under the influence of alcohol OR that you drove with
blood alcohol of .08 or greater.

The people he talked to who were convicted after being found asleep in
the back seat or reaching in the car for anything were either lying to
him (imagine that) or got really bad advice (or no advice) or the
prosecutor had some other way to prove they had driven (a witness who
saw them drive just prior to the officer's contact). That's not to
say an officer may not arrest someone under the circumstances he
mentioned, but proving the DUI is another story altogether.

In the few months that I handled DUI's in a DA's office I don't
remember seeing anyone charged who had been found asleep in any part
of the car except the driver's seat. I saw several cases where the
person was arrested after being found asleep in the driver's seat at a
red light...and then a green light...red light...green light, etc.


On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:52:04 GMT, Peter > wrote:

> >>"Part86" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >>>Another thing to point out is that after you have one dui there is
> >>>absolutely NO tolerance as far as blood alcohol level goes. You can't
> >>>have ANY alcohol in your blood not .001 or its another dui.
>
>>>That's one I've never heard. What state?
>>>
>>
>> California, and believe me it's true. The second dui here requires an 18 month
>> dui program and I know everything there is to know at this point.
>
>I don't see any such provision in the California statutes - could you cite
>a section of the Vehicle Code or other official document? At least one of
>your DUIs came when you were under 21 and current CA law specifies a BAC of
>.01% for minors (VC 23136) as compared to the .08% level for adults, but
>that's independent of any prior DUI convictions. The penalties go up for
>repeat offenders (VC 23560) but I have never heard of any zero tolerance
>policy specifically for those with a previous conviction.

[mike regish]

Pilot light.

Hey, we're back OT!

mike regish

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
>
> Some guest turns it off. Somebody else turns it back on without
> lighting it. . . . . What's that smell? BOOM!
>
> Don
>

[mike regish]

That actually happened to a guy I work with.

mike regish

"Steve" > wrote in message
...

> I saw several cases where the
> person was arrested after being found asleep in the driver's seat at a
> red light...and then a green light...red light...green light, etc.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Even a single fireplace in the lobby?
>
> I can understand their hesitance for in-room fireplaces, but it seems
silly
> of them to not permit one in a (presumably) well-supervised location.

We never pursued it, after the problem with having them in the rooms.
Besides, the lobby doesn't generate any revenue.

However, I just mounted a giant-scale F4U Corsair as if it's busting through
one of the walls -- right where the fireplace would have gone! The plane
looks way cooler anyway...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[tony roberts]

In article <CUVxb.250224$275.923639@attbi_s53>,
"JSF" > wrote:

> Actually the airlines have quite a number of alcoholic piltos...

That may be so, but given the state of the airline industry, and the
number of good, highly qualified pilots who have been laid off, and the
number of newly graduated commercial pilots who are still looking for
their first job, I suggest that any 23 year old with 2 DUI's is at a
huge disadvantage - and if he has not yet invested any money in
training, then this is a good time to make him aware of that fact.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Rob Perkins]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:04:40 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Well, Jay, look at it this way: I succumb to my general compulsions in
>> moderation, by limiting them to video games, crime-scene television
>> shows, and Usenet participance. And flying! :-D
>>
>> (And, this kind of good-natured ribbing is exactly what I meant by the
>> non-persecuting sort of teasing I've gotten my entire life.)
>
>Not drinking or smoking is one thing, but THIS? Crime scene television
>shows!? NOW you've crossed the line, buddy, and stepped into a serious
>mental-health care issue...

Augh! You found me out Jay! Now I have to confess that I've actually
enjoyed this year's season of _Star Trek: Enterprise_. What are you
going to do with me!

PLEASE! Not the briar patch!

Rob

[David Dyer-Bennet]

(Gene Seibel) writes:

> I'm curious why people do drink......

I grew up drinking some wine with meals when my parents did, starting
when I was about 6 years old. I'm very fond of good wine, and can
find uses for good bourbon and good scotch pretty easily too. And
rum, even fairly ordinary rum (in things like cranberry daiquiris,
which have such strong other flavors that real subtlety in the rum
isn't important). Bourbon sour made with fresh-squeezed lemon juice
and decent bourbon. Mmmmmm. Or the first mixed drink I found I
liked, gin and tonic (by preference Bombay Saphire these days).

Lots of weeks I don't have any alcohol. No DUI, no car accidents
involving damage or insurance or police reports in 27 years of driving
(though I've been gently rear-ended at stop-lights 4 or 5 times now).
It's actually slightly true that I'm trying to get *more* alcohol into
my diet, for the heart benefits.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"G.R. Patterson III" > writes:

> Gene Seibel wrote:
> >
> > But the main
> > reason is probably that it can look very hypocritical for a person to
> > drink and tell their teenagers not to.
>
> My father had that attitude. I vaguely remember getting a sip of his
> beer at about age six, but he didn't drink in my presence after that
> until I was old enough to do so. It's possible that he did on the
> rare occasions that he and my mother went out without the kids.

Well, telling kids not to *ever* drink at all is a pretty hard sell
anyway -- it's so obviously been done so much by so many people that
they're just not going to believe it's a hopelessly bad idea. Giving
actual examples of responsible drinking is probably more productive.

This American approach of pretending that it's seriously bad for kids
until they're 21, and then suddenly okay (and by then they're probably
away from home, so they're turned loose with no responsible adults
around and no controls), is just crazy. (My father is from England,
and the family habits seem to derive from that rather than normal
American practice.)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"mike regish" > writes:

> Same here. I can't even get through one beer if I'm not doing something.
> Somebody mentioned spending a night in a bar and alternating alcohol with
> non-alcohol drinks and only dring 3 drinks in an evening (several hours).
> I've tried that and it gives me a headache.
>
> About the only time nice cold beer tastes really good to me is after
> working in the yard on a hot day. And even then, I drink for effect, not
> flavor. But that's when the flavor seems actually good. I don't want
> something sweet and I've usually done enough water to float a battleship. I
> can't understand people who say they drink because they like to an not for
> effect. It's a drug. You put drugs in your body for effect. That's what
> drugs are for.

You have a seriously limited view of drug culture. The properties and
quality specific batches of pot, hashish, cocaine, and heroin are
frequent topics of discussion among users.

Tobacco too -- that's why there are pipes and cigars and cigarettes,
and so many different brands and kinds of tobacco and so forth.

Coffee too -- look at all the issues with flavors and how it's
prepared and so forth. Plus competing delivery vehicles like tea,
Pepsi, and Mountain Dew. Again, there's more to it than just taking
no-doz.

Well, same with alcohol. Many people *aren't* drinking just or even
primarily for drug effects. I assure you I don't *get* much drug
effect from one or even two glasses of wine.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>

[G.R. Patterson III]

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> Well, telling kids not to *ever* drink at all is a pretty hard sell
> anyway -- it's so obviously been done so much by so many people that
> they're just not going to believe it's a hopelessly bad idea.

At the time Papa quit, it was illegal to sell alcohol in that area of Tennessee.
Of course, every adult knew where the closest bootlegger was. They legalized
package sales about the time I hit high school.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Jay Honeck]

> Augh! You found me out Jay! Now I have to confess that I've actually
> enjoyed this year's season of _Star Trek: Enterprise_. What are you
> going to do with me!
>
> PLEASE! Not the briar patch!

Whew! You're okay after all.

Any Trek fan is a friend of mine! ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> isn't important). Bourbon sour made with fresh-squeezed lemon juice
> and decent bourbon. Mmmmmm. Or the first mixed drink I found I
> liked, gin and tonic (by preference Bombay Saphire these days).

Dang, David -- you're making my mouth water!

Ain't NUTHIN' better than an ice cold G&T on a hot summer day. And Bombay
Sapphire is just as close to heaven as you can get! ;-)

(Funny, in my youth I used to think that gin tasted like rubbing alcohol.
Finally musta killed off enough taste buds in my old age to "appreciate" the
flavor...!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Sengupta]

The drink-driving laws and/or attitude is rather different here in
Europe than in the US. I may have one pint or a glass of wine
over dinner, but after that I usually get (pints of) diet coke. If
anyone who's company I'm in makes a comment, I just have to
say I'm driving...you get an "ah, right" look and that's all.

If it's been several hours I may have another beer.

Ordering tea or coffee may not be the done thing, but soft drinks
are.

Do you not have this "designated driver" thing we see on the TV
over here? Someone who only drinks soft drinks?

I've been walking back to the car after a night out in a bar in
Florida where I've been the only person in the car park walking
straight.

Paul

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:jFxyb.369818$HS4.3089852@attbi_s01...
> I'm with Mike on this one. Order tea in a bar around here, and you'll get
> some mighty strange looks.

[Paul Sengupta]

This is what confuses me about the US and to a similar extent
the UK aspect of drinking. All too often children are completely
cut off from alcohol and it's seen as an adult thing. Then when
children are of an age to obtain alcohol it becomes something to
be over-indulged in. I believe in the French/Italian (can't speak for
others) way where children are introduced to wine, etc, from a
fairly young age...not to over-indulge of course, but not a matter of
prohibition either.

When I was growing up, we always had wine with our Sunday
lunch and I'd always have half a glass or a glass. I'd have a glass
of sherry at Christmas time or would try whatever anyone else was
having.

Another strange thing is the drinking age in the US. It was set to
21 to cut down the number of drink-drive accidents...rather than
police the drink-drive laws appropriately it's now illegal to drink
even if you have no intention of driving. Funny situation driving a
hire car to a bar in Florida when I was about 28 and another
of the flying students was 18...he couldn't drink as he was under
age, but he had to be over 25 to be insured to drive the hire car,
so I couldn't drink either as I had to drive...

As for health benefits, a glass of red wine or Guinness a day is
supposed to be good for the heart, but I can't even force myself to
drink that much!

Paul

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fsPyb.384007$Tr4.1121745@attbi_s03...
> Given this certainty, drinking RESPONSIBLY is something I want them to
see,
> and emulate.

[Paul Sengupta]

Must have been the rubbing alcohol you were consuming before... :-)

Paul

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:9j8zb.400633$Tr4.1153075@attbi_s03...
> (Funny, in my youth I used to think that gin tasted like rubbing alcohol.
> Finally musta killed off enough taste buds in my old age to "appreciate"
the
> flavor...!)

[Paul Sengupta]

In the UK this is an offence. You don't have to be driving or
have driven, or even intend to drive. You can be "drunk in charge
of a motor vehicle". Yes, if you have the keys, you're in charge.

You'd have to be a b*****d of a policeman to nick someone
for it though if they obviously weren't going to drive.

Regarding being caught the morning after, that's no excuse. An
excess of alcohol in your blood stream is just that. Remember
8 hours (or 12 or even more if heavy consumption) bottle to throttle.

Paul

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> The people he talked to who were convicted after being found asleep in
> the back seat or reaching in the car for anything were either lying to
> him (imagine that) or got really bad advice (or no advice) or the
> prosecutor had some other way to prove they had driven (a witness who
> saw them drive just prior to the officer's contact).

[Paul Sengupta]

I went to a party once, starting at lunchtime and finishing about
midnight. I did the cooking at the barbeque. At the end of the
night someone asked me how I was getting home. I said I was
driving. This person asked if I was ok to drive...he'd seen me
drinking beer all day and evening. I pointed out that I had, as
seen, been with a can of beer next to me since lunchtime, but in
that time had consumed a grand total of two cans!

Paul

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> In my 20s, I used to hit the Lighthouse in Atlanta about 8:00 and leave
about
> midnight. Maybe earlier if I met someone who wanted to get cuddly. I drank
> three beers a night.

[Paul Sengupta]

In the UK, in the case of those who are driving, yes.

Paul

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:d6tyb.373432$Fm2.374121@attbi_s04...
> Now I want you to tell me, honestly mind you, that you believe that the
> majority of people who spend several hours in a bar drink 3 drinks or
less.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> (Part86) wrote in message
>...
> > I have no flight experience, but I'd like to persue some kind of career
as a
> > pilot... I don't neccessarily have to be a commercial pilot, but I'd
like to fly.
> > Thanks
>
> To persue some kind of career as a pilot, you need to be a commercial
pilot.

The way I read that is "I want to be a commercial pilot, but I don't have to
be,
just flying privately would be nice".

[Gene Seibel]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Jay. I know we both desperately
want the best for our kids and from our cultural experiences each see
the path a little differently. One more shot from the soap box and
I’ll get off. ;)

I am under no illusion that my child hasn't or doesn't drink alcohol.
I did my experimentation when I was younger too. My goal was not to
have her never drink. My goal was to give her that choice. The
overwhelming consensus seems to be that kids will, so tell them to go
ahead but be responsible - a stamp of approval on succumbing to peer
pressure. If my daughter makes the choice to drink, that's her
business. If she did it just because everyone else was doing it, that
would not be a healthy reason. I've shown her, not just told her, that
saying no is a choice she CAN make. She has learned that peer approval
is a fleeting vapor that pales in comparison to the self respect one
has for making ones own choices. Of course a side benefit is that she
takes responsibility for her actions. If she chooses to drink, she
knows she alone made the choice and will do it responsibly. Never does
she put blame for her actions on anyone else.

We pilots are in the same situation. We pilots, like we non-drinkers,
have chosen to pursue a path that few others are following. Some envy
us because we are doing something they don't have the guts or
discipline to do, but most others look at us as odd and obsessed.
Their lack of approval means nothing to me. I have the self respect
that comes with making my own choices. I raised my daughter with that
same attitude. She knew what she wanted to do with her life the day
she left high school. At 25 she has a wonderful husband, has put
herself through college, is established in a great career, owns a
home, and makes me proud every day. My not drinking may not have
affected her fate, but I feel that it, along with my flying did
reinforce in her the confidence that she could do anything she wanted
and not do anything she didn't. Those who want to convince me that I
raised her wrong are just too late. YMMV. Other methods may work too.
Life's lessons can be learned in a variety of ways and many kids are
still living at home at 25. ;)
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<fsPyb.384007$Tr4.1121745@attbi_s03>...
> > And I can't see anything bad in that. I'm curious why people do
> > drink......
>
> Nothing wrong with not drinking alcohol, Gene -- I often go days and weeks
> without myself.
>
> However, the health benefits of drinking in moderation are hard to dispute.
> A glass or two of beer or wine at the end of a long, stressful day can only
> be described as "just what the doctor ordered" -- both mentally AND
> physically.
>
> You are right, however, that drinking is like a lottery -- you never know
> who is going to be susceptible to the "Dark Side" of alcohol. It's a
> wonder that my oldest sister and I can drink in moderation, without ill
> effect -- in fact, with enhanced *healthful* effect -- while my youngest
> sister has spent three decades in the depths of alcoholism and drug abuse.
>
> But I *do* worry about my children, not knowing whether they have the "evil
> gene" of alcoholism. Not knowing if they will be able to drink socially and
> safely is a deep concern, given my family history -- but I don't think our
> not drinking will effect their fate one way or the other.
>
> When they go to high school and (more prevalently )college, alcohol will be
> everywhere, and they WILL partake, guaranteed. I think it may be the
> "anti-alcohol" movement on campus that has romanticized drinking for the
> kids, and made "binge drinking" into an Olympic sport on campuses
> nationwide.
>
> Given this certainty, drinking RESPONSIBLY is something I want them to see,
> and emulate.

[Gig Giacona]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:dg8zb.203652$Dw6.747247@attbi_s02...
> > Augh! You found me out Jay! Now I have to confess that I've actually
> > enjoyed this year's season of _Star Trek: Enterprise_. What are you
> > going to do with me!
> >
> > PLEASE! Not the briar patch!
>
> Whew! You're okay after all.
>
> Any Trek fan is a friend of mine! ;-)
> --

Trek Fans.... We are everywhere....

Did you notice how they changed the name of the show from Enterprise to Star
Trek: Enterprise? Almost made my TIVO miss an episode.

[Rob Perkins]

On 3 Dec 2003 07:05:49 -0800, (Gene Seibel) wrote:

>The
>overwhelming consensus seems to be that kids will, so tell them to go
>ahead but be responsible - a stamp of approval on succumbing to peer
>pressure.

If incorrect, it would not be the first time that a popular consensus
was incorrect.

However, I think any time a teenager sees her way through to a stable
and sane adulthood is cause for celebration. Congratulations, Gene.
Pass the sparkling water?

Rob

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Sengupta wrote:
>
> Do you not have this "designated driver" thing we see on the TV
> over here? Someone who only drinks soft drinks?

Yes, it's done in my crowd. That doesn't include many people under 35 or so, so
I really don't have any first-hand experience with the young adult habits.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[aaronw]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:29:26 -0600, "Gig Giacona"
> wrote:
>Did you notice how they changed the name of the show from Enterprise to Star
>Trek: Enterprise? Almost made my TIVO miss an episode.


Yes, there was an *extended* discussion on this topic on
www.tivocommunity.com.

Basically:

UPN started out with keeping the same show ID (X) but changing the
name to ST: Enterprise. TiVo, Inc, knew about this, and notified
people about the name change, but did not know if UPN would change the
ID. They did not initially. So the TiVo did not care, because thnigs
internally are tracked by show ID, not by name. The ID presumably
comes from Tribune in one form or another, but the intricacies of
*that* database I wish to inflict on no person. Then UPN decided to
change the show ID, which DID screw up all the season passes. And
then then UPN switched back to the original show ID in the end. And I
also believe that the show ID change back and forth all happened in
the space of a week so that depending on when your guide data got
updated and processed and if you could get the 2nd run that some UPN
stations show you wouldn't have a problem.

Regardless, it was all a big mess, but hopefully it was instructive to
UPN to show them that now there are appliances and other devices
acting directly on the guide data and more stringent care must be
taken with it.

aw

[C J Campbell]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:eAnyb.262181$9E1.1381879@attbi_s52...
| For how long? I tried the "one beer an hour" thing once. I wouldn't have
| wanted to take a breathalyzer after that. Plus, the beer got warm. I don't
| think you can seriously claim that somebody who goes into a bar at 8 pm
and
| comes out at 1:30 am will be below the legal limit after drinking for
that
| entire time, no matter how slowly he drinks. I've never seen anybody in a
| bar who doesn't have a drink in front of him to him at all times.
|

Well, I don't drink at all -- and never have, but I have spent some time in
bars. There were times when we would get in late at night and the only place
to get anything to eat was the bars. This was especially true in Asia.

[Jay Honeck]

> However, I think any time a teenager sees her way through to a stable
> and sane adulthood is cause for celebration. Congratulations, Gene.
> Pass the sparkling water?

I will "Second" that motion, Gene!

If I can one day say the same for my two kids (ages 10 and 13), I will be a
happy man.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> driving. This person asked if I was ok to drive...he'd seen me
> drinking beer all day and evening. I pointed out that I had, as
> seen, been with a can of beer next to me since lunchtime, but in
> that time had consumed a grand total of two cans!

Well, Paul -- if it was in a "can", it probably wasn't "beer", anyway! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Model Flyer]

> so I couldn't drink either as I had to drive...
>
> As for health benefits, a glass of red wine or Guinness a day is
> supposed to be good for the heart, but I can't even force myself to
> drink that much!
>

Don't know about the red wine but I don't blame you over the
Guinness, tastes like cold vomit to me and I come from the home of
Guinness.:-(
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


> Paul
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:fsPyb.384007$Tr4.1121745@attbi_s03...
> > Given this certainty, drinking RESPONSIBLY is something I want
them to
> see,
> > and emulate.
>
>

[Rob Montgomery]

"mike regish" > wrote in message news:<9Cpyb.172049$Dw6.663660@attbi_s02>...
> You don't have to do a damned thing. People who go to bars to drink tea
> belong in teahouses. Don't know where you're from, but if you asked for tea
> in an American bar, you'd probably get beat up.
>
> mike regish
>

I've been in that situation, and I've found the perfect answer. "I've
got an early flight tommorow." I've been pressured to drink and drive,
but never to drink and fly. (btw. It works even if you don't have a
flight.) :-)

-Rob

[David Johnson]

How about iced tea served in a drink glass. Who's gonna know (except
the bartender?). Reminds me of the "Saigon Tea" reputedly consumed
by the bar hostesses of that city. Never investigated the claim, but
have no reason to doubt it.

David Johnson

[David Johnson]

I'd have to agree that moderation is the key. Drinking is for
relaxation - but know when to stop. In my younger days I consumed
quite a bit of beer, but never developed any dependence on it.
I discovered early on that drinks at lunch were a no-no. One beer
and I'd get nothing done for the rest of the day. I found that,
provided I didn't start till after dinner, I could have all I
wanted in the evening with no ill effects. All it did was make me
sleepy - and I'd feel fine the next day.

I still like beer, but am seldom inclined to drink any. It takes
unusually hot weather or unusual thirst (like after a long flight)
to motivate me to get some. All my drinking is done at home (or
wherever I am staying). I never, ever, drink in bars.

David Johnson

[Skip Schipper]

This is for Jay. As an off-topic aside: During WWII, I was a naval
aviation cadet and went to pre-flight school at the U of Iowa in your
fair city. As cadets we were not supposed to drink (most of us were
under age also). In order to get a drink, the routine was to go into
the dining room at the Jefferson Hotel where beer was served in tea pots
and poured into tea cups. Saturday nights would find an unusually large
group of cadets sipping "tea" in the hotel dining room. Whisky could be
obtained in half pints from the bell hops and drunk in the back room of
a local malt shop which would serve the "set-ups".
Skip Schipper (long time RA lurker)

[Craig Prouse]

"David Johnson" wrote:

> How about iced tea served in a drink glass.

How about Long Island Iced Tea served in a Tommee Tippee? :-)

[Jay Honeck]

> This is for Jay. As an off-topic aside: During WWII, I was a naval
> aviation cadet and went to pre-flight school at the U of Iowa in your
> fair city. As cadets we were not supposed to drink (most of us were
> under age also). In order to get a drink, the routine was to go into
> the dining room at the Jefferson Hotel where beer was served in tea pots
> and poured into tea cups. Saturday nights would find an unusually large
> group of cadets sipping "tea" in the hotel dining room. Whisky could be
> obtained in half pints from the bell hops and drunk in the back room of
> a local malt shop which would serve the "set-ups".
> Skip Schipper (long time RA lurker)

Great to hear from you, Skip! The Hotel Jefferson is now known as the
"Jefferson Building", and is all offices. I'm not sure when it closed as a
hotel, but -- as with most old hotels -- I'm sure it was because the room
structure no longer met guest's expectations. (I.E.: Those old hotel rooms
were SMALL!)

I'm currently working on writing a history of the Iowa City Airport (See
Version 3.0 it at http://alexisparkinn.com/the_iowa_city_airport.htm ). Did
you ever fly into the airport during the war? I'm looking for folks with
first-person accounts of what it was like, back when the old Boeing/United
Hangar was in use. Please contact me directly at
if you'd like to take this conversation "off-group"...

Thanks!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Skip Schipper" > wrote in message
...
>

[Skyking]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message >...
> "Part86" > wrote in message
> ...
> > because legally, police aren't supposed to do this.
>
> Why not?
>
> > It is frowned upon,
>
> I can believe that. But people usually frown upon actions that get them
> into trouble. No big surprise there.
>
> > but
> > more importantly, it presents more of a legal problem for prosecution when
> it
> > goes to court and has a likely chance of being thrown out.
>
> How so? I see no legality that would get a DUI case thrown out of court
> just because a police officer was waiting for a drunk person to come out of
> a bar and then get into a car.
>
> If the officer pulled over the person *solely* because they saw that person
> come out of a bar, that's one thing (and probably is illegal). But
> presumably, an office would note other signs of inebriation in the suspect,
> while they are walking to their car, when they try to unlock the car, as
> they start it, and then finally as they drive off.

I would that it is the duty of the officer in this case to stop
the person before he gets behind the wheel. It is in the interest
of public safety. If he waits so that he can get a bigger bust,
he is indangering the public.

Skyking

[ET]

(Skyking) wrote in
om:

> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Part86" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > because legally, police aren't supposed to do this.
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> > It is frowned upon,
>>
>> I can believe that. But people usually frown upon actions that get
>> them into trouble. No big surprise there.
>>
>> > but
>> > more importantly, it presents more of a legal problem for
>> > prosecution when
>> it
>> > goes to court and has a likely chance of being thrown out.
>>
>> How so? I see no legality that would get a DUI case thrown out of
>> court just because a police officer was waiting for a drunk person to
>> come out of a bar and then get into a car.
>>
>> If the officer pulled over the person *solely* because they saw that
>> person come out of a bar, that's one thing (and probably is illegal).
>> But presumably, an office would note other signs of inebriation in
>> the suspect, while they are walking to their car, when they try to
>> unlock the car, as they start it, and then finally as they drive off.
>
> I would that it is the duty of the officer in this case to stop
> the person before he gets behind the wheel. It is in the interest
> of public safety. If he waits so that he can get a bigger bust,
> he is indangering the public.
>
> Skyking
>

Drunk and in possession of car keys is not an offense.... driving drunk
in a private parking lot is not either for that matter... You start
prosecuting for alleged "intention" alone and you now live in a
totalitarian state....

How are you to know there is not a designated driver wandering around
somewhere... eh?? I'm almost always the driver TO the
bar/restaurant/party... and my wife is my designated driver (she doesn't
like even the taste of any alcohol)... My keys go in my pocket when we
arrive, and in her hands just before we get in the car... So when I am
over the legal driving limit before we get to the car I should be
charged????.... NOT!

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Peter Duniho]

"Skyking" > wrote in message
om...
> I would that it is the duty of the officer in this case to stop
> the person before he gets behind the wheel. It is in the interest
> of public safety. If he waits so that he can get a bigger bust,
> he is indangering the public.

That depends on the local laws and what the person was doing. However, if
the person is not violating some law on the way to his car ("disturbing the
peace", for example) the officer does not have (and should not have, IMHO)
the right to detain the person.

For better or for worse, it is generally not permissible for a police
officer to arrest someone because the officer *thinks* they might be getting
ready to commit a crime. The arrest cannot be made until the crime has
actually been committed. Once laws are on the books that make it illegal to
approach a vehicle while drunk, then an officer could legally arrest the
person in the situation in which you describe.

I don't think it's fair to most police officers to accuse them of simply
waiting for "a bigger bust". I don't doubt that a few do, but most are
concerned with doing what is both legal and protective of society. If they
had the right to arrest someone before they actually got behind the wheel
drunk, they would. But they don't.

Pete

[Ron Natalie]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message ...

> That depends on the local laws and what the person was doing.

I believe the rule here about having the keys refers to being in the car with the keys
(even if you weren't actually operating the car at the time they spotted you).

[Lynn Melrose]

ET wrote:

>
> Drunk and in possession of car keys is not an offense.... driving drunk
> in a private parking lot is not either for that matter... You start
> prosecuting for alleged "intention" alone and you now live in a
> totalitarian state....

Don't be so sure. New Hampshire is one of the states farthest from
totalitarianism, but its Supreme Court just ruled that a person asleep in a
car parked (transmission in PARK) in a private parking lot with the engine
running to stay warm was operating while intoxicated.

Summary: http://www.lexisone.com/news/ap/ap111403d.html
Case Decision:
http://www.courts.state.nh.us/supreme/opinions/2000/glagay.htm

As an aside, the message that this case appears to send to drunk drivers is
that you're no better off if you pull over and stop, so you might as well
keep going.

[ET]

Lynn Melrose > wrote in
:

> ET wrote:
>
>>
>> Drunk and in possession of car keys is not an offense.... driving
>> drunk in a private parking lot is not either for that matter... You
>> start prosecuting for alleged "intention" alone and you now live in a
>> totalitarian state....
>
> Don't be so sure. New Hampshire is one of the states farthest from
> totalitarianism, but its Supreme Court just ruled that a person asleep
> in a car parked (transmission in PARK) in a private parking lot with
> the engine running to stay warm was operating while intoxicated.
>
> Summary: http://www.lexisone.com/news/ap/ap111403d.html
> Case Decision:
> http://www.courts.state.nh.us/supreme/opinions/2000/glagay.htm
>
> As an aside, the message that this case appears to send to drunk
> drivers is that you're no better off if you pull over and stop, so you
> might as well keep going.
>
>

Absolutely ridiculous......

Although after reading to opinion in the link of your post, there was a
witness the the person actually driving within a reasonable time of being
observed by the officer in his car etc... so it's not "quite" as ridiculous
as it first seems.....
--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
> I believe the rule here about having the keys refers to being in the car
with the keys

Not in the part of the thread to which I was responding. "I would that it
is the duty of the officer in this case to stop the person before he gets
behind the wheel" was the quote in the post to which I replied.

Pete

[Lynn Melrose]

ET wrote:

> Lynn Melrose > wrote in
> :
>
> > ET wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Drunk and in possession of car keys is not an offense.... driving
> >> drunk in a private parking lot is not either for that matter... You
> >> start prosecuting for alleged "intention" alone and you now live in a
> >> totalitarian state....
> >
> > Don't be so sure. New Hampshire is one of the states farthest from
> > totalitarianism, but its Supreme Court just ruled that a person asleep
> > in a car parked (transmission in PARK) in a private parking lot with
> > the engine running to stay warm was operating while intoxicated.
> >
> > Summary: http://www.lexisone.com/news/ap/ap111403d.html
> > Case Decision:
> > http://www.courts.state.nh.us/supreme/opinions/2000/glagay.htm
> >
> > As an aside, the message that this case appears to send to drunk
> > drivers is that you're no better off if you pull over and stop, so you
> > might as well keep going.
> >
> >
>
> Absolutely ridiculous......
>
> Although after reading to opinion in the link of your post, there was a
> witness the the person actually driving within a reasonable time of being
> observed by the officer in his car etc... so it's not "quite" as ridiculous
> as it first seems.....

My mistake, I posted the wrong opinion link! The not quite as ridiculous
decision was actually the wrong case. You can view the opinion to the case
above at:

http://www.courts.state.nh.us/supreme/opinions/2003/winst154.htm

"The record supports the following facts. The charge arose out of an incident
on April 6, 2002, when, at approximately 3:13 a.m., Officer Shawn L. Hallock of
the Claremont Police Department discovered the defendant in a car in the
Wal-Mart parking lot. The defendant was sleeping upright in the driver’s seat,
with the car engine running. At trial, the defendant testified that he decided
to sleep in his car because he was "not . . . capable to drive anywhere," and
that the car was running so he could stay warm. The defendant further testified
that while he had no intention of driving the car, he did unlock the door, sit
in the driver’s seat, push the clutch in, move the gear selector to neutral,
start the engine and turn on the heater."
....
"Here, the defendant was also found asleep in the driver’s seat of a car in a
parking lot with the engine running. Moreover, the defendant testified at trial
that he unlocked the door, sat in the driver’s seat, pushed the clutch in,
moved the gear selector to neutral, started the engine and turned on the
heater. Given these facts and the reasonable inferences therefrom, a rational
trier of fact could find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was in
actual physical control of the car before he fell asleep. See Willard, 139 N.H.
at 571."
_______
The breathalyzer test is notoriously inaccurate; the blood test is very
accurate. (Gargling mouthwash and spitting it out may be enough to fail a
breathalyzer test, even though you are not intoxicated. Conversely, it can
underestimate the actual alcohol in the blood.) Somehow I doubt the police
officer would have requested the blood test if the breathalyzer had recorded
0.08. BAC. In many states you have the right however to request a blood test,
but unfortunately the breathalyzer has been accepted by the courts. .

[ET]

Lynn Melrose > wrote in
:

>

> ...
> "Here, the defendant was also found asleep in the driver’s seat of a
> car in a parking lot with the engine running. Moreover, the defendant
> testified at trial that he unlocked the door, sat in the driver’s
> seat, pushed the clutch in, moved the gear selector to neutral,
> started the engine and turned on the heater. Given these facts and the
> reasonable inferences therefrom, a rational trier of fact could find
> beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was in actual physical
> control of the car before he fell asleep. See Willard, 139 N.H. at
> 571." _______

OK, now THAT's outrageous!

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams