What Ever Happened? Cadillac Commercial Accident

[JohnDeRosa]

Thinking back on the dreadful Cadillac commercial glider accident in
October of 2011, I wondered if the final NTSB report was ever
released. It hasn't and still shows as "preliminary" 8 months
later.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20111013X31821&key=1

Is >8 months typical for a fatal accident? Anyone know any more facts
that we did back then?

There certainly exists video of the accident taken by the crew filming
the commercial which would be instructive (but terrible) to watch -
and is probably being kept under tight wraps for legal reasons.

Thanks.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Jun 11, 9:25*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:

> ..I wondered if the final NTSB report was ever
> released. *It hasn't and still shows as "preliminary" 8 months
> later...

John, it is indeed typical for the NTSB to take at least 12 months to
investigate fatal accidents and release a probable cause. Non-fatal
accidents are typically wrapped up in about six months.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Ramy]

On Monday, June 11, 2012 11:20:41 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Jun 11, 9:25*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
>
> > ..I wondered if the final NTSB report was ever
> > released. *It hasn't and still shows as "preliminary" 8 months
> > later...
>
> John, it is indeed typical for the NTSB to take at least 12 months to
> investigate fatal accidents and release a probable cause. Non-fatal
> accidents are typically wrapped up in about six months.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

One must be wonder why it needs to take so long. It's not like a commercial airline accidents which takes months or years to reconstruct. In almost all glider accidents all the facts are known in a week, so why wait? By the time the NTSB report is released, the accident is already forgotten and the value of the report is significantly diminished. This is why we should share all available info on public forums such as RAS as soon as possible so we can discuss and make our own conclusions. I heard that the details of this particular accident is known to few other club members but they keep it to themselves.

Ramy

Ramy

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

In the UK it often takes much longer than a week to get all the details,
and sometimes flight tests are undertaken after that to investigate various
issues, before the full analysis can be completed. There is then often a
review process by certain interested parties before a final report can be
published.

One example of delays is in finding the log book(s) of the pilot(s) to
ascertain recency and experience etc. There are many other things sometimes
required.

Admittedly, a year seems a very long time, but months is far from unusual,
in my limited experience of having been involved in a few.

Chris N.

[Ramy]

On Monday, June 11, 2012 4:13:08 PM UTC-7, Chris Nicholas wrote:
> In the UK it often takes much longer than a week to get all the details,
> and sometimes flight tests are undertaken after that to investigate various
> issues, before the full analysis can be completed. There is then often a
> review process by certain interested parties before a final report can be
> published.
>
> One example of delays is in finding the log book(s) of the pilot(s) to
> ascertain recency and experience etc. There are many other things sometimes
> required.
>
> Admittedly, a year seems a very long time, but months is far from unusual,
> in my limited experience of having been involved in a few.
>
> Chris N.

I am pretty sure that none of that takes place with NTSB unless it is a high profile case, which may be the case this time. Most final reports I've seen looked like a copy of the preliminary report with no evidence of any effort to learn more.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Monday, June 11, 2012 2:47:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> On Monday, June 11, 2012 11:20:41 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > On Jun 11, 9:25*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> >
> > > ..I wondered if the final NTSB report was ever
> > > released. *It hasn't and still shows as "preliminary" 8 months
> > > later...
> >
> > John, it is indeed typical for the NTSB to take at least 12 months to
> > investigate fatal accidents and release a probable cause. Non-fatal
> > accidents are typically wrapped up in about six months.
> >
> > Thanks, Bob K.
>
> One must be wonder why it needs to take so long. It's not like a commercial airline accidents which takes months or years to reconstruct. In almost all glider accidents all the facts are known in a week, so why wait? By the time the NTSB report is released, the accident is already forgotten and the value of the report is significantly diminished. This is why we should share all available info on public forums such as RAS as soon as possible so we can discuss and make our own conclusions. I heard that the details of this particular accident is known to few other club members but they keep it to themselves.
>
> Ramy
>
> Ramy

With all the years of accident reports and statistics available, why is it so critical to instantly analyse every accident?
Sometimes getting the word out is a really good thing, like the rudder issue a bit back. I'll bet a few guys checked their cables.
That said, I seriously doubt we will learn much from the above accident that hasn't been learned many times before.
The other point of view
UH

[Ramy]

On Monday, June 11, 2012 6:01:23 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> On Monday, June 11, 2012 2:47:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > On Monday, June 11, 2012 11:20:41 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > > On Jun 11, 9:25*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> > >
> > > > ..I wondered if the final NTSB report was ever
> > > > released. *It hasn't and still shows as "preliminary" 8 months
> > > > later...
> > >
> > > John, it is indeed typical for the NTSB to take at least 12 months to
> > > investigate fatal accidents and release a probable cause. Non-fatal
> > > accidents are typically wrapped up in about six months.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bob K.
> >
> > One must be wonder why it needs to take so long. It's not like a commercial airline accidents which takes months or years to reconstruct. In almost all glider accidents all the facts are known in a week, so why wait? By the time the NTSB report is released, the accident is already forgotten and the value of the report is significantly diminished. This is why we should share all available info on public forums such as RAS as soon as possible so we can discuss and make our own conclusions. I heard that the details of this particular accident is known to few other club members but they keep it to themselves.
> >
> > Ramy
> >
> > Ramy
>
> With all the years of accident reports and statistics available, why is it so critical to instantly analyse every accident?
> Sometimes getting the word out is a really good thing, like the rudder issue a bit back. I'll bet a few guys checked their cables.
> That said, I seriously doubt we will learn much from the above accident that hasn't been learned many times before.
> The other point of view
> UH

I respectfully disagree. I find something to learn, or at least to remind myself, in almost every accident report. Every accident is different, even when falling under the same category as stall/spin. Also, we can't know if there is anything new to learn until we learn the details, can we? And last, repeated reminders of how accidents happen, can only benefit us, especially those newer to the sport which have yet to learn about all the possible ways we can kill ourselves...

Ramy