Obtaining Flight Instructor Certificate

[Chris]

To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording in
part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
thanks so much!

-Chris

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-28 17:46:59 -0800, "Chris" > said:

> To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
> commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
> CFI teaching VFR only?

For a flight instructor certificate with an airplane rating, you must have a commercial certificate with an instrument rating. If you're going for a helicopter CFI, you don't need the instrument rating.

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003112817560816807%larry@larryandjennynet...
> For a flight instructor certificate with an airplane rating, you must have
a commercial certificate with an instrument rating. If you're going for a
helicopter CFI, you don't need the instrument rating.

I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse 61.183(c)(2). It
says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR privileges on that person's
pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating
sought".

If you're not trying to get qualified to instruct instrument flight, why
would you need an instrument rating, assuming you had all the other
necessary privileges on your pilot certificate? What does "privileges on
that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight
instructor rating sought" actually mean?

I'd never actually looked at this particular line that closely, and had
always assumed you are required to have an instrument rating to get a flight
instructor certificate. But now I don't see how the regulation specifically
says this (though I admit, the regulation is worded so oddly, I'm not really
sure what it DOES say :) ). The Part 61 FAQ seems to say that you DO need
an instrument rating, but does not clarify what the reasoning behind that
conclusion is. They seem to think the regulation is clear as written.

Pete

[Chris]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the "OR" in that regulation is
alittle wordy.

-Chris



"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
> news:2003112817560816807%larry@larryandjennynet...
> > For a flight instructor certificate with an airplane rating, you must
have
> a commercial certificate with an instrument rating. If you're going for a
> helicopter CFI, you don't need the instrument rating.
>
> I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse 61.183(c)(2). It
> says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR privileges on that person's
> pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating
> sought".
>
> If you're not trying to get qualified to instruct instrument flight, why
> would you need an instrument rating, assuming you had all the other
> necessary privileges on your pilot certificate? What does "privileges on
> that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight
> instructor rating sought" actually mean?
>
> I'd never actually looked at this particular line that closely, and had
> always assumed you are required to have an instrument rating to get a
flight
> instructor certificate. But now I don't see how the regulation
specifically
> says this (though I admit, the regulation is worded so oddly, I'm not
really
> sure what it DOES say :) ). The Part 61 FAQ seems to say that you DO need
> an instrument rating, but does not clarify what the reasoning behind that
> conclusion is. They seem to think the regulation is clear as written.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Chris]

Thanks for clarifing

--Chris



"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003112817560816807%larry@larryandjennynet...
> On 2003-11-28 17:46:59 -0800, "Chris" > said:
>
> > To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
> > commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be
a
> > CFI teaching VFR only?
>
> For a flight instructor certificate with an airplane rating, you must have
a commercial certificate with an instrument rating. If you're going for a
helicopter CFI, you don't need the instrument rating.
>

[BTIZ]

as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.

Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
have a IFR rating.

Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger" in
a commercial operation.

BT
"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
> commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
> CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording
in
> part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
> thanks so much!
>
> -Chris
>
>

[Chris]

Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
> certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
>
> Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
> have a IFR rating.
>
> Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
in
> a commercial operation.
>
> BT
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
> > commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be
a
> > CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording
> in
> > part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
> > thanks so much!
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> >
>
>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:

> Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
>
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
> > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> >
> > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
> > have a IFR rating.
> >
> > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
> in
> > a commercial operation.

Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.

[BTIZ]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
> On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
>
> > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
> >
> >
> > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
> > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> > >
> > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
> > > have a IFR rating.
> > >
> > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
> > in
> > > a commercial operation.
>
> Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.

Please explain and give references other than making a statement.

(of course I did not back up my statment, but I am researching the Part61
FAQ file)

Bt
>

[Chris]

Larry can you explain what is incorrect with BTIZ statement becasue I really
need to know if an instument rating is required or not to be a CFI the regs
were not exactly clear to me in this area.

Thanks
Chris

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
> On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
>
> > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
> >
> >
> > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
> > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> > >
> > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
> > > have a IFR rating.
> > >
> > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
> > in
> > > a commercial operation.
>
> Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.
>

[Richard Hertz]

If you are going to become a CFI, I suggest you start looking into better
ways to learn about the FARs. Getting information on a newsgroup won't cut
it.




"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> Larry can you explain what is incorrect with BTIZ statement becasue I
really
> need to know if an instument rating is required or not to be a CFI the
regs
> were not exactly clear to me in this area.
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
> "Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
> news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
> > On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
> >
> > > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
> > >
> > >
> > > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
> Commercial
> > > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> > > >
> > > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
> don't
> > > > have a IFR rating.
> > > >
> > > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
> passenger"
> > > in
> > > > a commercial operation.
> >
> > Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.
> >
>
>

[Robert Moore]

"Peter Duniho" wrote

> I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse
> 61.183(c)(2). It says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR
> privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are
> appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought".

I am a Flight Instructor-Airplane, but I do not have an Instrument
Rating on my pilot certificate per the following:


Section 61.167: Privileges.
(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is
entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds
a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.


Bob Moore

[Sylvain]

Larry Fransson > wrote in message news:<2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet>...
> On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
> > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
> > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
> > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
> > > have a IFR rating.
> > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
> in
> > > a commercial operation.
> Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.


I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).

(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)

first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
certificate]"

in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial certificate
without an instrument rating.

Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure points
like this one...

--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

[David Mack]

I don't have the FAR book right in front of me (yes, I know it's
available online), but I can advise you from a practical standpoint.
When I took my CFI checkride in May, the examiner specifically checked
for _both_ the commercial and instrument aspects of of my certificate.

Although you will most likely always be teaching in VFR conditions,
there are times when you must instruct in simulated IFR conditions
(for the student, of course!). The FAA requires each student to log
three hours of instrument (flight solely by reference to instruments)
in order to obtain a private pilot certificate. So you would be
instructing in instrument technique during these instances and it
would seem logical that you would need to have some background in that
area.

David


"Chris" > wrote in message >...
> To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
> commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
> CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording in
> part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
> thanks so much!
>
> -Chris

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-28 21:56:07 -0800, "BTIZ" > said:

> Please explain and give references other than making a statement.

My reference? I have held a CFI certificate since 1992. I needed an instrument rating then,
and that hasn't changed. I'll agree that the wording of 61.183(c)(2) becomes somewhat
difficult after the words "instrument rating." It could be that what the "or" is referring to is
something like a multiengine rating. It is possible to hold a commercial certificate with a
multiengine rating that is restricted to VFR. In that case, it appears you would not be eligible
for a multiengine instructor rating as you do not have "instrument...privileges...appropriate to
the flight instructor rating sought."

As for the part about students being paying passengers in a commercial operation, I can't give you a reference because there isn't one. It is flight instruction, which is specifically excluded from the passenger-carrying provisions of the regulations as stated in 119.1(e)(1). If it somehow were a passenger-carrying operation, the only place it would fit is part 135, which specifically prohibits passengers from manipulating the flight controls.

[Big John]

Private Pilot requires 3 hours of instruent flight instruction.

Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
flight?

I was always on the top end of the order (CFII) and never took much
notice of the bottom feeders.<G>

This is a serios query not a straight man feed line for the local
comics.

Big John


On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:46:59 -0500, "Chris" >
wrote:

>To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
>commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
>CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording in
>part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
>thanks so much!
>
>-Chris
>

[Big John]

Sylvain

It's interesting that you point out how one can legally fly without a
medical certificate. Haven't seen it talked about for years.

I have someplace a copy of the original letter that the FAA Lawyer put
out that spelled out that it was authorized and the conditions.

Am sure your data will be an eye opener even for some CFI's.

26 days and counting <G>

Big John


On 29 Nov 2003 05:20:55 -0800, (Sylvain) wrote:

>Larry Fransson > wrote in message news:<2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet>...
>> On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
>> > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
>> > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
>> > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
>> > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
>> > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
>> > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
>> > > have a IFR rating.
>> > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
>> in
>> > > a commercial operation.
>> Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.
>
>
>I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
>correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
>one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
>instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
>I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
>related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
>for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
>Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).
>
>(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)
>
>first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
>61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
>as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
>that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
>an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
>instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
>certificate]"
>
>in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial certificate
>without an instrument rating.
>
>Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
>50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
>apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
>one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
>but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
>with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
>medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
>see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
>the privileges of a private pilot...
>
>seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
>well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure points
>like this one...
>
>--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

[Robert Moore]

Big John wrote

> Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach
> instrument flight?

Depends on which definition of instrument flight you want to
consider.

1. Control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference
to instruments.

2. Instrument flight training

Item 1. being that training required for the Private Pilot
certificate and need not be given by the holder of a Flight
Instructor-Instrument/Airplane certificate.

Item 2. is that training required for an Instrument Rating
and must be given by the holder of a Flight Instructor-Inst-
rument/Airplane certificate.



Section 61.195: Flight instructor limitations and qualifications
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument
flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type
rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or
her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is
appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided.

Bob Moore

[Peter Duniho]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 8...
> I am a Flight Instructor-Airplane, but I do not have an Instrument
> Rating on my pilot certificate per the following:

I do understand the implication of holding an ATP certificate, thank you.
That's not the point. The regulation says "that are appropriate to the
flight instructor rating sought" but does not define what that means.

If they mean "that are equivalent to an instrument rating", why not just say
that? It's specific, to the point, and most importantly, unambiguous,
unlike the current regulation.

Pete

[mike regish]

I've gotten the most clear and concise answers to FAR questions right here.
You just have to know how to weed out some garbage ocassionally.

mike regish

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message
t...
> If you are going to become a CFI, I suggest you start looking into better
> ways to learn about the FARs. Getting information on a newsgroup won't
cut
> it.
>
>
>
>
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Larry can you explain what is incorrect with BTIZ statement becasue I
> really
> > need to know if an instument rating is required or not to be a CFI the
> regs
> > were not exactly clear to me in this area.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Chris
> >
> > "Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
> > news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
> > > On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > > > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > > > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
> > Commercial
> > > > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> > > > >
> > > > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
> > don't
> > > > > have a IFR rating.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
> > passenger"
> > > > in
> > > > > a commercial operation.
> > >
> > > Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[mike regish]

An IR isn't required for the ATP?

mike regish

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 8...
> "Peter Duniho" wrote
>
> > I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse
> > 61.183(c)(2). It says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR
> > privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are
> > appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought".
>
> I am a Flight Instructor-Airplane, but I do not have an Instrument
> Rating on my pilot certificate per the following:
>
>
> Section 61.167: Privileges.
> (a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is
> entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds
> a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
>
>
> Bob Moore

[Greg Esres]

<<Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
flight?
>>

Oddly, no. IMO, the FAA weaseled it way out of that one by redefining
what is taught to a private pilot as "flight by reference to
instruments", rather than "instrument training".

In reality, a distinction without a difference. A more honest
approach would have been to grant an exemption to CFI's for training
private pilot.

[Robert Moore]

"mike regish" > wrote in
news:2l7yb.158250$Dw6.630001@attbi_s02:

> An IR isn't required for the ATP?

Instrument is included in the ATP unless the ATP certificate
is restricted to "VFR Only". As I recall, some years back,
there were some Part 121 helicopter operations that required
an ATP certificate but were flown in helicopters that were not
IFR equiped.

Bob

[BTIZ]

I've been trying to pour through that document.. and have it on my computer
to do word searches..

I must admit.. that my statement stems from a "FAA Safety Seminar" before
the current "Wings" program.. where the FSDO and the local DEs all agreed..
at that time.. about 15 yrs ago.. a Commercial only pilot could be a
"Basic" CFI... but had the above discussed restrictions.. for the reasons
mentioned..

It seems that based on the information recently provided in FAQ part61..
they "removed all doubt".. by requiring an instructor candidate (for
airplane) to require an IFR rating.

ISHC (I stand Humbly corrected)
BT
"Sylvain" > wrote in message
om...
> Larry Fransson > wrote in message
news:<2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet>...
> > On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" > said:
> > > Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
> > > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > > news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
> > > > as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
> > > > certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
> > > > Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
> > > > have a IFR rating.
> > > > Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
> > in
> > > > a commercial operation.
> > Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.
>
>
> I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
> correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
> one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
> instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
> I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
> related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
> for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
> Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).
>
> (Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)
>
> first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
> 61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
> as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
> that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
> an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
> instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
> certificate]"
>
> in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial
certificate
> without an instrument rating.
>
> Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
> 50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
> apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
> one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
> but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
> with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
> medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
> see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
> the privileges of a private pilot...
>
> seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
> well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure
points
> like this one...
>
> --Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

[Judah]

You're right. Calling every FSDO in the US to get every possible opinion
there is works much better!


;)

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in
t:

> If you are going to become a CFI, I suggest you start looking into
> better ways to learn about the FARs. Getting information on a
> newsgroup won't cut it.
>

[Judah]

Does a safety pilot have to be Instrument Rated in order to be Safety
Pilot while the PIC is under the hood?

By your logic, that would seem to be the case. But we both know it not to
be the case. Why would a CFI be required to have an instrument rating to
teach Simulated IFR?



Big John > wrote in
:

> Private Pilot requires 3 hours of instruent flight instruction.
>
> Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
> flight?
>
> I was always on the top end of the order (CFII) and never took much
> notice of the bottom feeders.<G>
>
> This is a serios query not a straight man feed line for the local
> comics.
>
> Big John
>
>
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:46:59 -0500, "Chris" >
> wrote:
>
>>To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
>>commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only
>>be a CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the
>>wording in part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can
>>clarify please do thanks so much!
>>
>>-Chris
>>
>

[Sylvain]

Big John > wrote in message
> It's interesting that you point out how one can legally fly without a
> medical certificate. Haven't seen it talked about for years.

I did look up the class-III thing quite a while ago and made sure I
understood it properly because i) I wanted to become a CFI (still not
there yet, I should stop procrastinating and take the exam ...:-);
and ii) only had a class-III at the time with a SODA limited to class-III
only and I wasn't sure whether I could upgrade it to class-II or higher;
turned out that I was able to do so (all it took was additional time to
process the paper work and another medical flight test, no biggie; but
I digress; anyway, the point is that when you have to get SODA to fly,
you end up having to learn the regs pretty well :-)

except that I made a mistake (hope you guys would have corrected it,
but just to be sure):

> >(which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
> >with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
> >medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
> >see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
> >the privileges of a private pilot...

I meant to say: if one is NOT acting as PIC or as required crew member...

for instance, when you are teaching an advanced student (already rated
in category and class -- and type as the case may be -- and with proper
endorsement should it be a complex/high-perf/tailwheel) who can act as
PIC...

--Sylvain

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-29 19:59:07 -0800, Judah > said:

> Does a safety pilot have to be Instrument Rated in order to be Safety
> Pilot while the PIC is under the hood?
>
> By your logic, that would seem to be the case. But we both know it not to
> be the case. Why would a CFI be required to have an instrument rating to
> teach Simulated IFR?

Because instructors are there to teach. That means they should know something
about what they're teaching. Safety pilots aren't there to teach. They're there
to be a pair of eyes.

[Andrew Sarangan]

The wording of the FAR is indeed confusing. However, the PTS for
flight instructor (airplane) clearly states that a
commercial/instrument or ATP is a prerequisite for the checkride. I
know that the PTS is not regulatory, but if you don't satisfy the PTS
requirements you won't pass the checkride regardless of what you think
the FAR says.

Also, I believe that only an airplane or airship instructor rating
requires an instrument rating. In that context, the wording "OR
privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to
the flight instructor rating sought" starts to make some sense.


"Chris" > wrote in message >...
> I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the "OR" in that regulation is
> alittle wordy.
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
> > news:2003112817560816807%larry@larryandjennynet...
> > > For a flight instructor certificate with an airplane rating, you must
> have
> > a commercial certificate with an instrument rating. If you're going for a
> > helicopter CFI, you don't need the instrument rating.
> >
> > I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse 61.183(c)(2). It
> > says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR privileges on that person's
> > pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating
> > sought".
> >
> > If you're not trying to get qualified to instruct instrument flight, why
> > would you need an instrument rating, assuming you had all the other
> > necessary privileges on your pilot certificate? What does "privileges on
> > that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight
> > instructor rating sought" actually mean?
> >
> > I'd never actually looked at this particular line that closely, and had
> > always assumed you are required to have an instrument rating to get a
> flight
> > instructor certificate. But now I don't see how the regulation
> specifically
> > says this (though I admit, the regulation is worded so oddly, I'm not
> really
> > sure what it DOES say :) ). The Part 61 FAQ seems to say that you DO need
> > an instrument rating, but does not clarify what the reasoning behind that
> > conclusion is. They seem to think the regulation is clear as written.
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
> Also, I believe that only an airplane or airship instructor rating
> requires an instrument rating. In that context, the wording "OR
> privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to
> the flight instructor rating sought" starts to make some sense.

Since the clause containing the "or" applies only to ratings for which an
instrument rating is required, I don't follow your logic there. I just
don't see why the regulation is written that way. It could be MUCH clearer,
and your suggestion doesn't cause it "to make some sense" in my opinion.

Pete

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-11-30 13:38:20 -0800, "Peter Duniho" > said:

> Since the clause containing the "or" applies only to ratings for which an
> instrument rating is required, I don't follow your logic there. I just
> don't see why the regulation is written that way. It could be MUCH clearer,
> and your suggestion doesn't cause it "to make some sense" in my opinion.

You don't actually need an instrument rating for all of the ratings listed. Here's
how 61.183(2) reads:

(2) An instrument rating or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that is appropriate
to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for--
(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating;
(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating;
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or
(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating

The "or" may make sense when you think of ratings in a broader sense, encompassing
all flying machines, not just airplanes. I previously mentioned the example of a
multiengine rating restricted to VFR. That would certainly seem to exclude "instrument
privileges" in the case of (ii), where the pilot might have an instrument rating, but no
instrument privileges in multiengine airplanes. If we take a broader look, you might think
about a pilot who has a commercial certificate with an airplane single engine rating, a
rotorcraft helicopter rating, and an instrument helicopter rating. Obviously, that pilot has
an instrument rating, but it certainly does not include instrument privileges for any
airplane ratings.

Does that begin to make some sense?

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003113014312075249%lfransson@comcastnet...
> You don't actually need an instrument rating for all of the ratings
listed.

I know. That was my point.

> The "or" may make sense when you think of ratings in a broader sense,
encompassing
> all flying machines, not just airplanes.

How so? The regulation you quoted clearly restricts the "or" clause to
airplanes, powered-lift aircraft (which are basically airplanes, and it's
because of that they are included with airplane-related regulations), or
instrument instruction in any aircraft.

That's my whole point. Andrew's statement was to the effect that the "or"
is there for aircraft other than airplanes. My reply was that the "or"
specifically applies only to aircraft like airplanes. I honestly have no
idea what YOUR point is here.

> [...] If we take a broader look, you might think
> about a pilot who has a commercial certificate with an airplane single
engine rating, a
> rotorcraft helicopter rating, and an instrument helicopter rating.
Obviously, that pilot has
> an instrument rating, but it certainly does not include instrument
privileges for any
> airplane ratings.
>
> Does that begin to make some sense?

It in no way explains why the clause beginning with "or" is present in the
regulation.

Pete

[Ron Natalie]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message ...

> If you're not trying to get qualified to instruct instrument flight, why
> would you need an instrument rating, assuming you had all the other
> necessary privileges on your pilot certificate? What does "privileges on
> that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight
> instructor rating sought" actually mean?

ATP's don't hold instrument ratings.

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> ATP's don't hold instrument ratings.

So? Please read the rest of the thread. The clause easily could have
specified "instrument privileges" specifically, but it didn't. So, not only
does it not make clear that "instrument privileges" ARE required, it implies
that some other privileges might be necessary and/or sufficient.

Of all the poorly written paragraphs in the FARs, this sure seems to be one
of them.

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message news:<66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01>...
> as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
> certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
>
> Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
> have a IFR rating.
>
> Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger" in
> a commercial operation.

No, you cannot apply for a CFI rating without first showing you hold
an instrument rating (or ATP).

No, teaching is not a commercial operation, that is why we don't need
class 2 medical. Teaching is a nice expection that allows us to be
paid to fly without it being a commercial operation. In the eyes of
the FAA, you are being paid to teach, not to fly. For post-solo
students, that's true. I rarely even actually touch the controls with
post-solo students (but I do "guard" them).

-Robert, CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

Big John > wrote in message >...
> Private Pilot requires 3 hours of instruent flight instruction.
>
> Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
> flight?

No, there is no requirement for instrument training for a private
applicant. If you read the FARs very carefully, you will see that
private students must receive 3 hours of
"3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the
control^M
and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments"
This intentionally worded different from the instrument training
required by a commerical or instrument applicant. This was done for a
good reason. A CFI without a CFII cannot act "within the priv of his
ticket" while giving instrument training. Luckily, privates don't
require any.

-Robert, CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

Judah > wrote in message >...
> Does a safety pilot have to be Instrument Rated in order to be Safety
> Pilot while the PIC is under the hood?
>
> By your logic, that would seem to be the case. But we both know it not to
> be the case. Why would a CFI be required to have an instrument rating to
> teach Simulated IFR?

A CFI does not need an instrument rating to teach instruments, he must
have an instrument rating to fill out an application for a CFI rating.
A CFI's pilot instrument rating has nothing to do with what he can
teach. For example, a CFI is never required to maintain instrument
currency unless he needs to serve as PIC under IFR (which private
instruction is almost never done under).

-Robert, CFI