Participation

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

My website has a copy of the article "The National Contest
Participation Dilemma" that appeared in this month's Soaring. I put
together a lot of numbers on contest participation, and tried to get
at some causes.

A few surprises: lots of new pilots show up, but they don't stick.
Pilots do not like to drive long distances. There are lots of contest-
capable gliders out there.

The article is meant to stir up discussion on what we should do,
including east/west nationals, mixed handicapped classes, picking team
members from outside "their" class, or (not in the article because I
hadn't heard of the idea at the time) having just one big nationals
with many small classes and multiple super-regional qualifiers.

Direct link
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/participation.pdf

Webpage
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#misc

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:30:37 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> My website has a copy of the article "The National Contest
> Participation Dilemma" that appeared in this month's Soaring. I put
> together a lot of numbers on contest participation, and tried to get
> at some causes.
>
> A few surprises: lots of new pilots show up, but they don't stick.
> Pilots do not like to drive long distances. There are lots of contest-
> capable gliders out there.
>
> The article is meant to stir up discussion on what we should do,
> including east/west nationals, mixed handicapped classes, picking team
> members from outside "their" class, or (not in the article because I
> hadn't heard of the idea at the time) having just one big nationals
> with many small classes and multiple super-regional qualifiers.
>
> Direct link
> http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/participation.pdf
>
> Webpage
> http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#misc
>
> John Cochrane

John,

Keep the writing up. Your articles have become the highlight of the magazine for me.

There are some shining lights:

1) GTA Racing Association in Region V is thriving this year after a few years of decline.
2) A half dozen competition pilots have entered the fray this year via GTA. All of these guys are young with the youngest being 16!
3) Bill Daniels reports that the last few months have seen a net growth in SSA memberships.
4) An SSA committe has engaged the Civil Air Patrol in constructive talks regarding glider training.
5) The SSA has some forward thinkers who are working hard to generate momentum.

The pendulum may be swinging in the right direction.

Lane
XF

Lane
XF

[Paul Cordell]

I think Scheduling has a lot to do with individual or specific Contest
participation. June in the West illustrates the problem perfectly.
The Open Class nationals has 9 Contestants. The reality of Open
Class @ Minden is that you DO NOT need 25+ Meters of Wings to be
competitive. Moriarty and Ephrata have scheduled the exact same
dates. Just to add insult to injury, The 18M and Standard Class
Nats are in the same corner of the world. The Sports Class Nationals
@ Parowan also overlaps . All this "togetherness" forces people
to make choices and dilutes participation at all events.

If the 18-Std Contest had been scheduled and sited in the center of
the country, I suspect the contestant numbers would have been greater
for both the Open and 18-Std Contests respectively. The equation of
dates and distances must be balanced such as to direct pilots to the
obvious choice. An 18M owner from the East is unlikely to drive to
Montague, However He may make the drive to the Center of the
country. But, not when the dates conflict with other closer
choices. Also, It's good to combine classes. However Location must
be Considered. I suspect that if the Standard Class was combined with
the Opens @ Minden and No other Western Contest was run during the
same time, Attendance would be up significantly.

I know it's a tricky situation compounded by very few sites stepping
forward to host a contest. With some coordination, I think everybody
can benefit

Paul Cordell

[[email protected]]

I'm not in the game so maybe this isn't an issue but my guess is races are too long. Fit everything in a week. Have Mon. be the practice day, race ends on Fri. Two days to drive in, two days to drive home. Of course you would lose more contests to weather and maybe luck makes a bigger contribution then consistency, but if a race can be done in one week of vacation time the value/time spent changes.
On Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:30:37 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> My website has a copy of the article "The National Contest
> Participation Dilemma" that appeared in this month's Soaring. I put
> together a lot of numbers on contest participation, and tried to get
> at some causes.
>
> A few surprises: lots of new pilots show up, but they don't stick.
> Pilots do not like to drive long distances. There are lots of contest-
> capable gliders out there.
>
> The article is meant to stir up discussion on what we should do,
> including east/west nationals, mixed handicapped classes, picking team
> members from outside "their" class, or (not in the article because I
> hadn't heard of the idea at the time) having just one big nationals
> with many small classes and multiple super-regional qualifiers.
>
> Direct link
> http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/participation.pdf
>
> Webpage
> http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#misc
>
> John Cochrane

[Tony[_5_]]

On Friday, June 15, 2012 8:13:10 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I'm not in the game so maybe this isn't an issue but my guess is races are too long. Fit everything in a week. Have Mon. be the practice day, race ends on Fri. Two days to drive in, two days to drive home. Of course you would lose more contests to weather and maybe luck makes a bigger contribution then consistency, but if a race can be done in one week of vacation time the value/time spent changes.

That is a really good point. Last year Region 10 worked well for that. First practice day was Sunday. Race was Tuesday - Saturday. Of course the weather was good so that helped. Anyone within a one day drive only had to take a week off work. I don't mind using vacation time to go soaring but I really don't like taking vacation time to drive. Anything more than 12 or 14 hrs on the road from home adds 2 more days of vacation required to attend.

[J. Murray]

I agree.

[Tom[_12_]]

There are some contests that are well attended year after year (sold
out) such as "The Seniors," and a few regionals. It may be possible to
have a similar format with a "Class" or "Classes" mixed in and
appropriate trophies awarded.

Regional / National contest with Sports, Standard Class and/or 15 M
would fit fine. Even the 18M and Open Class could participate with
seperate, but similar tasking.

Some contests are too popular to allow such a mix. Such as The
Seniors, and Perry

Tom Knauff

[S. Murry]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:37:02 -0500, Tony > wrote:

> On Friday, June 15, 2012 8:13:10 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>> I'm not in the game so maybe this isn't an issue but my guess is races
>> are too long. Fit everything in a week. Have Mon. be the practice
>> day, race ends on Fri. Two days to drive in, two days to drive home.
>> Of course you would lose more contests to weather and maybe luck makes
>> a bigger contribution then consistency, but if a race can be done in
>> one week of vacation time the value/time spent changes.
>
> That is a really good point. Last year Region 10 worked well for that.
> First practice day was Sunday. Race was Tuesday - Saturday. Of course
> the weather was good so that helped. Anyone within a one day drive only
> had to take a week off work. I don't mind using vacation time to go
> soaring but I really don't like taking vacation time to drive. Anything
> more than 12 or 14 hrs on the road from home adds 2 more days of
> vacation required to attend.

I second Tony's re-affirmation of Gregg's point that scheduling is a big
factor. I also flew the Region 10 for the last two years and the timing
is just right to fit into a single week off work (maybe leaving a bit
early on Friday, but...). This makes a huge difference versus having to
be gone for 1.5-2 weeks (or more).

Somebody mentioned the GTA races and I think there is a similar "league"
in Arizona that runs numerous weekend races as opposed to one marathon
race. Obviously, this is somewhat less practical for a Nationals but a
regionals run across two long weekends, for example, might work.

--
Stefan Murry

[Andrzej Kobus]

I would never drive 2 days each way for possible 5 days of flying
(including practice day). My criteria: reasonable distance, chance for
good weather (based on location) and reasonable length of the contest,
no less than 6 flying days plus a practice day. For example drive up
on Saturday, Sunday practice, Mon-Sat contest , Sunday back home
(exactly like Perry).

On Jun 15, 9:13*am, wrote:
> I'm not in the game so maybe this isn't an issue but my guess is races are too long. *Fit everything in a week. *Have Mon. be the practice day, race ends on Fri. Two days to drive in, two days to drive home. *Of course you would lose more contests to weather and maybe luck makes a bigger contribution then consistency, but if a race can be done in one week of vacation time the value/time spent changes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:30:37 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> > My website has a copy of the article "The National Contest
> > Participation Dilemma" that appeared in this month's Soaring. I put
> > together a lot of numbers on contest participation, and tried to get
> > at some causes.
>
> > A few surprises: lots of new pilots show up, but they don't stick.
> > Pilots do not like to drive long distances. There are lots of contest-
> > capable gliders out there.
>
> > The article is meant to stir up discussion on what we should do,
> > including east/west nationals, mixed handicapped classes, picking team
> > members from outside "their" class, or (not in the article because I
> > hadn't heard of the idea at the time) having just one big nationals
> > with many small classes and multiple super-regional qualifiers.
>
> > Direct link
> >http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/participat...
>
> > Webpage
> >http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#misc
>
> > John Cochrane

[Martin[_5_]]

I am also a x-c wannabe at the moment, but second the shorter contests
suggestion. I have four weeks of vacation per year. More than most
americans. There is no way I'm going to devote two of them to driving
to and attending one contest, let alone more.

Closer, shorter, and then I'll be interested.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

> Closer, shorter, and then I'll be interested.

That's one reason you start with local regionals... or just fun flying
encampments (which are easier to reschedule if mother nature has other
ideas).

I support the current trend towards 6 and 7 day regional contests and
I'm okay with 10 day Nats. No way in hell do I want to fly *less* for
the same drive time and travel cost.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Jun 15, 9:01*pm, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
> > Closer, shorter, and then I'll be interested.
>
> That's one reason you start with local regionals... or just fun flying
> encampments (which are easier to reschedule if mother nature has other
> ideas).
>
> I support the current trend towards 6 and 7 day regional contests and
> I'm okay with 10 day Nats. *No way in hell do I want to fly *less* for
> the same drive time and travel cost.
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

I second that. Short contest means a lot of hassle and possibly no
flying at all.

[Steve Koerner]

Maybe in the east Nationals need to be 10 days long to accomodate the greater likelihood of rain days. In the west, 7 days would be plenty by my accounting. Shorter contests would help me make the choice to attend.

Shouldn't the rules provide flexibility so the duration can be sensibly chosen by locale? Something like: 7 days in the West, 8 days for Hobbs and Uvalde, 10 days in the East.

[[email protected]]

I suggest having an EAST/WEST alternating nationals each year.

Sports/Club
15M/Standard
18M/Open
PW5/1-26

For Example, with National Contests:

In 2013 host the Sports Class at Chilhowee and the Club Class at Parawon
In 2014 host the Club Class at Chilhowee and Sports Class at Parawon

In 2013 host the Standard at Mifflin and the 15M in Uvalde
In 2014 host the 15M at Mifflin and the Standard in Uvalde

If you flip flop these 8 classes to have 4 nationals each year on the west side of the country and the other 4 nationals on the east side, this should even things out. If you divide the USA into two halves, then centrally locate the nationals in each half, then driving time should be no more than one day.

[[email protected]]

Some other suggestions I have are these:

1. Eliminate the $200 sanctioning fee with the SSA to help promote clubs to host contests (especially the small or first time contests). This will bring down costs to promote races.

2. Put a max on meal prices of $10. $17 per person is too high. For a family of 4, that's $68 each night!

3. Since Sports class and Club class typically consist of younger pilots with kids in school, host these nationals (maybe regionals too) when school is out for the summer.

4. Consider a "contest stimulus package" from the SSA to clubs who host their very first contest. Give $500 from the SSA to the club ONLY if they yield less than 10 competitors. Now that the SSA is back on their feet financially, time for a give back.

5. Update the list of nation wide towpilots who are willing to act as a tow in a contest. This list is outdated.

6. Form a list of volunteer CD's and CM's who love the sport and donate a weeks worth of time to help host a contest.

7. Develop a guide to understanding the rules, just the basics, maybe a page or two. Too many people get bogged down trying to read the massive rulebook. The rulebook is mundane and hard to read.

8. Eliminate the fixed contest entry fee and just have the variable contest fee. If you pay $430 and the contest gets rained out...that's alot of cash blown. With the variable entry fee you would only be out $200.

9. Explore the possibility of having an remote/online scorer. Running Winscore is tricky if your not familiar with it. Scorers can be hard to come by for a contest, especially a new contest, if there's permission to email your flight logs to a remote scorer each evening and have them email the score sheet right back, this might help enable a contest or give birth to a new contest

10. Get in line with the rest of the world, BRING BACK HIGH SPEED LOW PASS FINISHES!!!

[Martin[_5_]]

There's some logic to that, granted.

On Jun 15, 9:01*pm, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
> > Closer, shorter, and then I'll be interested.
>
> That's one reason you start with local regionals... or just fun flying
> encampments (which are easier to reschedule if mother nature has other
> ideas).
>
> I support the current trend towards 6 and 7 day regional contests and
> I'm okay with 10 day Nats. *No way in hell do I want to fly *less* for
> the same drive time and travel cost.
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

[Hartley Falbaum]

Having managed four consecutive contests at Cordele, two Nationals,
and 4 Regionals (the nationals had concurrent Regionals), I like some
of your ideas, but others show evidence of unfamiliarity with the
subject. Especially the financial aspects. We spent a great deal of
time before and during the contests trying very hard to break even.
Cordele has no ongoing soaring operation, so all towpilots must be
imported, as must the towplanes. Thus ferry fuel and housing are an
expense. No tow operation will give up their Pawnee for a week and two
weekends without a guaranteed income--tow or no tow. Are you aware of
the cost of operating a Pawnee, per tow?

As to meals, well, for $10 what can you get? Do you import volunteers
to cook burgers? Every day?

On the ground you need a CD, CM, Dir Ops. These people must be fully
familiar with glider contest operations. You might be able to get WX
and Scorer remotely, but on site is much better. So--food and housing
for these.
You must have a competent Retrieve Office. They need an office, phone
lines, internet

I could go on and on, but my fingers are tired, and you get the idea.
We filtered a lot of money, and worked hard for very little profit. If
we got paid $1.00 per hour we would be way ahead!

Go talk at length to someone who has done this a few times.







On Jun 16, 1:43*am, wrote:
> Some other suggestions I have are these:
>
> 1. *Eliminate the $200 sanctioning fee with the SSA to help promote clubs to host contests (especially the small or first time contests). *This will bring down costs to promote races.
>
> 2. *Put a max on meal prices of $10. *$17 per person is too high. *For a family of 4, that's $68 each night!
>
> 3. *Since Sports class and Club class typically consist of younger pilots with kids in school, host these nationals (maybe regionals too) when school is out for the summer.
>
> 4. *Consider a "contest stimulus package" from the SSA to clubs who host their very first contest. *Give $500 from the SSA to the club ONLY if they yield less than 10 competitors. *Now that the SSA is back on their feet financially, time for a give back.
>
> 5. *Update the list of nation wide towpilots who are willing to act as a tow in a contest. *This list is outdated.
>
> 6. *Form a list of volunteer CD's and CM's who love the sport and donate a weeks worth of time to help host a contest.
>
> 7. *Develop a guide to understanding the rules, just the basics, maybe a page or two. *Too many people get bogged down trying to read the massive rulebook. *The rulebook is mundane and hard to read.
>
> 8. *Eliminate the fixed contest entry fee and just have the variable contest fee. *If you pay $430 and the contest gets rained out...that's alot of cash blown. *With the variable entry fee you would only be out $200.
>
> 9. *Explore the possibility of having an remote/online scorer. *Running Winscore is tricky if your not familiar with it. *Scorers can be hard to come by for a contest, especially a new contest, if there's permission to email your flight logs to a remote scorer each evening and have them email the score sheet right back, this might help enable a contest or give birth to a new contest
>
> 10. *Get in line with the rest of the world, BRING BACK HIGH SPEED LOW PASS FINISHES!!!

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

On Jun 16, 9:25*pm, Hartley Falbaum > wrote:
> Having managed four consecutive contests at Cordele, two Nationals,
> and 4 Regionals (the nationals had concurrent Regionals), I like some
> of your ideas, but others show evidence of unfamiliarity with the
> subject. Especially the financial aspects. We spent a great deal of
> time before and during the contests trying very hard to break even.
> Cordele has no ongoing soaring operation, so all towpilots must be
> imported, as must the towplanes. Thus ferry fuel and housing are an
> expense. No tow operation will give up their Pawnee for a week and two
> weekends without a guaranteed income--tow or no tow. Are you aware of
> the cost of operating a Pawnee, per tow?

Hartley, having created and co-managed a small first time contest with
19 pilots that profited over $5,000 in one week, I do in fact
understand the process very well. Sounds like Cordele is in a
location that ends up being a costly event. Glad it has somebody like
you to iron out the wrinkles. GTA races continue on and on without
any cost other than tows. Does that surprise you? Yet everyone has a
blast, and they have been going on now for over a decade. Contests
should be the money maker event of the year, not a loss and not a
break even. Creativity and a penny pinching mindset is key. Yes I am
fully aware of the cost of operating a Pawnee, and fully aware that
the contest tow rate of $52 is much higher than most soaring clubs in
the USA.



> As to meals, well, for $10 what can you get? Do you import volunteers
> to cook burgers? Every day?

Think outside the box. What do you spend on a normal meal? Be
realistic. Try this approach: get a head count at the pilot meeting
for total number of people that will attend the dinner. Send someone
in to town to pick up a pre-ordered carry out catering meal. Don't go
to Texas De Brazil, go to a Mom and Pops inexpensive restaurant. I
did this at a pilot safety meeting I hosted and it cost $5.25 per
person for a total of 40 people ($210 total). We had BBQ pulled pork,
coleslaw, toast, french fries and a drink from the local BBQ
restaurant. Charging $10 ($400 total revenue) and it's a $190
profit. With a meal purchase of a large quantity that all 40 meals
are the same order, there is typically a discount from the normal
price.

Other nights you can do a potluck dinner. For my family of 4, we
could bring a a homecooked tray from the RV of something for a cost of
$15-20 perhaps....much less than $68.

And just like GTA events do occasionally is reserve a room at a nearby
restaurant. Remeber this from the Sunship Game? Then each person can
order food that they have options to pick from. Burger, fries, & a
tall glass of ice water typically cost no more than $10. Call up the
local Golden Corral or Mexican joint, ask them what night has the
least amount of business. Then work out a deal to reserve a section
for your group. People like me on a budget will order something waaay
less than $17 per person.




> On the ground you need a CD, CM, Dir Ops. These people must be fully
> familiar with glider contest operations. You might be able to get WX
> and Scorer remotely, but on site is much better. So--food and housing
> for these.

I agree for a nationals. For a regional, you can get by with much
less. It's been said many times before, that having a weatherman is
for pure entertainment. Your going to launch the sniffer anyway, then
go from there. Now that everyone has XCSkies and Dr Jacks Blipmap via
their iPhone, we all know what the weather forecast is. And even if
the forecast is no good, were going to attempt to get in a contest day
anyway! Dir Ops? Do you really truly need one?




> You must have a competent Retrieve Office. They need an office, phone
> lines, internet

While this is very charming and super cool to have this. The
smartphone is an office, phone line & internet. This is in everyones
pocket. You really can do without it thanks to SPOT tracking. This
sport has kind of outgrown this as a need. Now it's a luxury. Now
every pilot has a GPS, cell phone and SPOT tracker connected to
Facebook. The SPOT tracker lets the social media website Facebook
know where you landed and if you need help. Also, with GlidePath, my
flight is uploaded to the OLC and posted to facebook before I even
climb out of the cockpit (takes about 5 seconds). Just about every
car has a GPS too, so it's easy to text message your Lat & Long for a
seamless transition from the gliderport to your off field landing
site. While there isn't a need to develop turnpoint photographs all
night long to verify correctly rounding each turnpoint, there isn't
much need for a retrieve office anymore either. Technology is freeing
up the retrieve office personell.




> I could go on and on, but my fingers are tired, and you get the idea.
> We filtered a lot of money, and worked hard for very little profit. If
> we got paid $1.00 per hour we would be way ahead!

Hartley, sorry you didn't make that much money, you deserve waaay
more. Your contest prevailed $18,685 in entry fees and probably more
revenue considering T-shirts, RV hookup fees, meals, extra tows, aero-
retrieves, etc. It's sad to hear that with all that revenue your
contest barely broke even. But glad that your able to make it happen.



> Go talk at length to someone who has done this a few times.

Why don't you talk to me to find out how our contest was so
profitable? Come on over and I'll grill you a steak on the gianormous
stainless steel grill that was bought and given to me as a thank you
gift for all of my hardwork to run the contest. I joined the SSA in
1996 and have attended 2 nationals, and a half dozen regionals varying
as a pilot, crew and once co-manager. Charlie & Micky Minner were
gracious enough to bring me under their wing and teach me to have a
mindset of penny pinching. The GTA racing community has this mindset
and all they charge is for tows, yet they keep on having races! Keep
in mind, this is a volunteer sport and needs to be encouraged to stay
that way. When I'm called upon to volunteer a weeks time to help
operate a race, I will be happy to do so.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Good effort Scott!!


At 06:37 17 June 2012, Scott Alexander wrote:
>On Jun 16, 9:25=A0pm, Hartley Falbaum wrote:
>> Having managed four consecutive contests at Cordele, two Nationals,
>> and 4 Regionals (the nationals had concurrent Regionals), I like some
>> of your ideas, but others show evidence of unfamiliarity with the
>> subject. Especially the financial aspects. We spent a great deal of
>> time before and during the contests trying very hard to break even.
>> Cordele has no ongoing soaring operation, so all towpilots must be
>> imported, as must the towplanes. Thus ferry fuel and housing are an
>> expense. No tow operation will give up their Pawnee for a week and two
>> weekends without a guaranteed income--tow or no tow. Are you aware of
>> the cost of operating a Pawnee, per tow?
>
>Hartley, having created and co-managed a small first time contest with
>19 pilots that profited over $5,000 in one week, I do in fact
>understand the process very well. Sounds like Cordele is in a
>location that ends up being a costly event. Glad it has somebody like
>you to iron out the wrinkles. GTA races continue on and on without
>any cost other than tows. Does that surprise you? Yet everyone has a
>blast, and they have been going on now for over a decade. Contests
>should be the money maker event of the year, not a loss and not a
>break even. Creativity and a penny pinching mindset is key. Yes I am
>fully aware of the cost of operating a Pawnee, and fully aware that
>the contest tow rate of $52 is much higher than most soaring clubs in
>the USA.
>
>
>
>> As to meals, well, for $10 what can you get? Do you import volunteers
>> to cook burgers? Every day?
>
>Think outside the box. What do you spend on a normal meal? Be
>realistic. Try this approach: get a head count at the pilot meeting
>for total number of people that will attend the dinner. Send someone
>in to town to pick up a pre-ordered carry out catering meal. Don't go
>to Texas De Brazil, go to a Mom and Pops inexpensive restaurant. I
>did this at a pilot safety meeting I hosted and it cost $5.25 per
>person for a total of 40 people ($210 total). We had BBQ pulled pork,
>coleslaw, toast, french fries and a drink from the local BBQ
>restaurant. Charging $10 ($400 total revenue) and it's a $190
>profit. With a meal purchase of a large quantity that all 40 meals
>are the same order, there is typically a discount from the normal
>price.
>
>Other nights you can do a potluck dinner. For my family of 4, we
>could bring a a homecooked tray from the RV of something for a cost of
>$15-20 perhaps....much less than $68.
>
>And just like GTA events do occasionally is reserve a room at a nearby
>restaurant. Remeber this from the Sunship Game? Then each person can
>order food that they have options to pick from. Burger, fries, & a
>tall glass of ice water typically cost no more than $10. Call up the
>local Golden Corral or Mexican joint, ask them what night has the
>least amount of business. Then work out a deal to reserve a section
>for your group. People like me on a budget will order something waaay
>less than $17 per person.
>
>
>
>
>> On the ground you need a CD, CM, Dir Ops. These people must be fully
>> familiar with glider contest operations. You might be able to get WX
>> and Scorer remotely, but on site is much better. So--food and housing
>> for these.
>
>I agree for a nationals. For a regional, you can get by with much
>less. It's been said many times before, that having a weatherman is
>for pure entertainment. Your going to launch the sniffer anyway, then
>go from there. Now that everyone has XCSkies and Dr Jacks Blipmap via
>their iPhone, we all know what the weather forecast is. And even if
>the forecast is no good, were going to attempt to get in a contest day
>anyway! Dir Ops? Do you really truly need one?
>
>
>
>
>> You must have a competent Retrieve Office. They need an office, phone
>> lines, internet
>
>While this is very charming and super cool to have this. The
>smartphone is an office, phone line & internet. This is in everyones
>pocket. You really can do without it thanks to SPOT tracking. This
>sport has kind of outgrown this as a need. Now it's a luxury. Now
>every pilot has a GPS, cell phone and SPOT tracker connected to
>Facebook. The SPOT tracker lets the social media website Facebook
>know where you landed and if you need help. Also, with GlidePath, my
>flight is uploaded to the OLC and posted to facebook before I even
>climb out of the cockpit (takes about 5 seconds). Just about every
>car has a GPS too, so it's easy to text message your Lat & Long for a
>seamless transition from the gliderport to your off field landing
>site. While there isn't a need to develop turnpoint photographs all
>night long to verify correctly rounding each turnpoint, there isn't
>much need for a retrieve office anymore either. Technology is freeing
>up the retrieve office personell.
>
>
>
>
>> I could go on and on, but my fingers are tired, and you get the idea.
>> We filtered a lot of money, and worked hard for very little profit. If
>> we got paid $1.00 per hour we would be way ahead!
>
>Hartley, sorry you didn't make that much money, you deserve waaay
>more. Your contest prevailed $18,685 in entry fees and probably more
>revenue considering T-shirts, RV hookup fees, meals, extra tows, aero-
>retrieves, etc. It's sad to hear that with all that revenue your
>contest barely broke even. But glad that your able to make it happen.
>
>
>
>> Go talk at length to someone who has done this a few times.
>
>Why don't you talk to me to find out how our contest was so
>profitable? Come on over and I'll grill you a steak on the gianormous
>stainless steel grill that was bought and given to me as a thank you
>gift for all of my hardwork to run the contest. I joined the SSA in
>1996 and have attended 2 nationals, and a half dozen regionals varying
>as a pilot, crew and once co-manager. Charlie & Micky Minner were
>gracious enough to bring me under their wing and teach me to have a
>mindset of penny pinching. The GTA racing community has this mindset
>and all they charge is for tows, yet they keep on having races! Keep
>in mind, this is a volunteer sport and needs to be encouraged to stay
>that way. When I'm called upon to volunteer a weeks time to help
>operate a race, I will be happy to do so.
>
>
>

[Hartley Falbaum]

Scott;
$5000 profit from 19 pilots? That is $263 per contestant profit!
Sounds like we could benefit from a private conversation.
Comparing the Cherry Valley contest with Cordele (and many others) may
be like comparing hunting rabbits with hunting tigers.
I have flown many GTAs since 1995, so I am very familiar with the
format.
Let's talk---send me an email and I'll send my phone # back to you.




On Jun 17, 2:37*am, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> On Jun 16, 9:25*pm, Hartley Falbaum > wrote:
>
> > Having managed four consecutive contests at Cordele, two Nationals,
> > and 4 Regionals (the nationals had concurrent Regionals), I like some
> > of your ideas, but others show evidence of unfamiliarity with the
> > subject. Especially the financial aspects. We spent a great deal of
> > time before and during the contests trying very hard to break even.
> > Cordele has no ongoing soaring operation, so all towpilots must be
> > imported, as must the towplanes. Thus ferry fuel and housing are an
> > expense. No tow operation will give up their Pawnee for a week and two
> > weekends without a guaranteed income--tow or no tow. Are you aware of
> > the cost of operating a Pawnee, per tow?
>
> Hartley, having created and co-managed a small first time contest with
> 19 pilots that profited over $5,000 in one week, I do in fact
> understand the process very well. *Sounds like Cordele is in a
> location that ends up being a costly event. *Glad it has somebody like
> you to iron out the wrinkles. *GTA races continue on and on without
> any cost other than tows. *Does that surprise you? *Yet everyone has a
> blast, and they have been going on now for over a decade. *Contests
> should be the money maker event of the year, not a loss and not a
> break even. *Creativity and a penny pinching mindset is key. *Yes I am
> fully aware of the cost of operating a Pawnee, and fully aware that
> the contest tow rate of $52 is much higher than most soaring clubs in
> the USA.
>
> > As to meals, well, for $10 what can you get? Do you import volunteers
> > to cook burgers? Every day?
>
> Think outside the box. *What do you spend on a normal meal? *Be
> realistic. *Try this approach: get a head count at the pilot meeting
> for total number of people that will attend the dinner. *Send someone
> in to town to pick up a pre-ordered carry out catering meal. *Don't go
> to Texas De Brazil, go to a Mom and Pops inexpensive restaurant. *I
> did this at a pilot safety meeting I hosted and it cost $5.25 per
> person for a total of 40 people ($210 total). *We had BBQ pulled pork,
> coleslaw, toast, french fries and a drink from the local BBQ
> restaurant. *Charging $10 ($400 total revenue) and it's a $190
> profit. *With a meal purchase of a large quantity that all 40 meals
> are the same order, there is typically a discount from the normal
> price.
>
> Other nights you can do a potluck dinner. *For my family of 4, we
> could bring a a homecooked tray from the RV of something for a cost of
> $15-20 perhaps....much less than $68.
>
> And just like GTA events do occasionally is reserve a room at a nearby
> restaurant. *Remeber this from the Sunship Game? *Then each person can
> order food that they have options to pick from. *Burger, fries, & a
> tall glass of ice water typically cost no more than $10. *Call up the
> local Golden Corral or Mexican joint, ask them what night has the
> least amount of business. *Then work out a deal to reserve a section
> for your group. *People like me on a budget will order something waaay
> less than $17 per person.
>
> > On the ground you need a CD, CM, Dir Ops. These people must be fully
> > familiar with glider contest operations. You might be able to get WX
> > and Scorer remotely, but on site is much better. So--food and housing
> > for these.
>
> I agree for a nationals. *For a regional, you can get by with much
> less. *It's been said many times before, that having a weatherman is
> for pure entertainment. *Your going to launch the sniffer anyway, then
> go from there. *Now that everyone has XCSkies and Dr Jacks Blipmap via
> their iPhone, we all know what the weather forecast is. *And even if
> the forecast is no good, were going to attempt to get in a contest day
> anyway! *Dir Ops? *Do you really truly need one?
>
> > You must have a competent Retrieve Office. They need an office, phone
> > lines, internet
>
> While this is very charming and super cool to have this. *The
> smartphone is an office, phone line & internet. *This is in everyones
> pocket. *You really can do without it thanks to SPOT tracking. *This
> sport has kind of outgrown this as a need. *Now it's a luxury. *Now
> every pilot has a GPS, cell phone and SPOT tracker connected to
> Facebook. *The SPOT tracker lets the social media website Facebook
> know where you landed and if you need help. *Also, with GlidePath, my
> flight is uploaded to the OLC and posted to facebook before I even
> climb out of the cockpit (takes about 5 seconds). *Just about every
> car has a GPS too, so it's easy to text message your Lat & Long for a
> seamless transition from the gliderport to your off field landing
> site. *While there isn't a need to develop turnpoint photographs all
> night long to verify correctly rounding each turnpoint, there isn't
> much need for a retrieve office anymore either. *Technology is freeing
> up the retrieve office personell.
>
> > I could go on and on, but my fingers are tired, and you get the idea.
> > We filtered a lot of money, and worked hard for very little profit. If
> > we got paid $1.00 per hour we would be way ahead!
>
> Hartley, sorry you didn't make that much money, you deserve waaay
> more. Your contest prevailed $18,685 in entry fees and probably more
> revenue considering T-shirts, RV hookup fees, meals, extra tows, aero-
> retrieves, etc. *It's sad to hear that with all that revenue your
> contest barely broke even. *But glad that your able to make it happen.
>
> > Go talk at length to someone who has done this a few times.
>
> Why don't you talk to me to find out how our contest was so
> profitable? *Come on over and I'll grill you a steak on the gianormous
> stainless steel grill that was bought and given to me as a thank you
> gift for all of my hardwork to run the contest. *I joined the SSA in
> 1996 and have attended 2 nationals, and a half dozen regionals varying
> as a pilot, crew and once co-manager. *Charlie & Micky Minner were
> gracious enough to bring me under their wing and teach me to have a
> mindset of penny pinching. *The GTA racing community has this mindset
> and all they charge is for tows, yet they keep on having races! Keep
> in mind, this is a volunteer sport and needs to be encouraged to stay
> that way. *When I'm called upon to volunteer a weeks time to help
> operate a race, I will be happy to do so.

[Papa3[_2_]]

I've been quietly working on a project to document exactly this sort of information, so would you guys mind sharing your notes with me when you're done?

FWIW, what I have found so far is that there are really 2 or 3 "classes" of regionals:

- Small, "mini-regionals" where the majority of pilots are from the local area and the home FBO/Club has a couple of towplanes that are sufficient to handle the load. Very little cost of bringing in additional towplanes (maybe the Scout from the club 20 miles away), all of the contest officials are local, and meals/events are low key. The limit here seems to be about 20, or whatever number of gliders can be launched by the local tow operation in around an hour. Sounds like Scott's contest or the Wurtsboro Region II contest fit this bill.

- Medium, "true-regionals" where the pilots come from about a day's drive around the contest site, which is a local club operation. These tend to be big enough that there isn't enough local tow capacity and more towplanes need to be flown in. They may still be able to economize with a lot of local talent. Fairfield, Harris Hill, and CCSC are probably good examples.

- Medium/Large "remote regionals". These tend to be hosted at "remote" locations (i.e. good soaring site but no full-time FBO or club present, though there may be a towplane based there). The entire contest infrastructure has to be brought in. While the CD or CM might be willing to rough it to some extent, they still expect a roof over their heads and paid meals in return for their efforts. Since these are large events, you need 5 or even 6 towplanes, with all of the associated costs. Places like Parowan or Mifflin probably fit this model.

What pilots need to appreciate is that the tow capacity is really the critical variable. If you have forty gliders, nobody wants to be sitting on the launch line for 2 hours waiting to go. It means losing a good part of the available day and may actually mean no contest day if the soaring window is short enough.

On the other stuff, I strongly agree that the retrieve process in particular could be more automated. In terms of scoring, I think there's a lot to be said for having a person to sit with to work through the myriad problems that happen, but it's worth trying a different model. While weather can clearly be done remotely, there are many days when it's important to have someone paying close attention (approaching rough weather being one example).. If the CD or CM is willing to take on all that extra load, that's great..

Overall, I think there's room for a wide variety of approaches, ranging from really "no frills" up to the "platinum class", but pilots need to appreciate the incredible effort that goes into running a contest and be a little more considerate of all involved.



On Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:50:29 AM UTC-4, Hartley Falbaum wrote:
> Scott;
> $5000 profit from 19 pilots? That is $263 per contestant profit!
> Sounds like we could benefit from a private conversation.
> Comparing the Cherry Valley contest with Cordele (and many others) may
> be like comparing hunting rabbits with hunting tigers.
> I have flown many GTAs since 1995, so I am very familiar with the
> format.
> Let's talk---send me an email and I'll send my phone # back to you.
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2:37*am, Scott Alexander >
> wrote:
> > On Jun 16, 9:25*pm, Hartley Falbaum > wrote:
> >
> > > Having managed four consecutive contests at Cordele, two Nationals,
> > > and 4 Regionals (the nationals had concurrent Regionals), I like some
> > > of your ideas, but others show evidence of unfamiliarity with the
> > > subject. Especially the financial aspects. We spent a great deal of
> > > time before and during the contests trying very hard to break even.
> > > Cordele has no ongoing soaring operation, so all towpilots must be
> > > imported, as must the towplanes. Thus ferry fuel and housing are an
> > > expense. No tow operation will give up their Pawnee for a week and two
> > > weekends without a guaranteed income--tow or no tow. Are you aware of
> > > the cost of operating a Pawnee, per tow?
> >
> > Hartley, having created and co-managed a small first time contest with
> > 19 pilots that profited over $5,000 in one week, I do in fact
> > understand the process very well. *Sounds like Cordele is in a
> > location that ends up being a costly event. *Glad it has somebody like
> > you to iron out the wrinkles. *GTA races continue on and on without
> > any cost other than tows. *Does that surprise you? *Yet everyone has a
> > blast, and they have been going on now for over a decade. *Contests
> > should be the money maker event of the year, not a loss and not a
> > break even. *Creativity and a penny pinching mindset is key. *Yes I am
> > fully aware of the cost of operating a Pawnee, and fully aware that
> > the contest tow rate of $52 is much higher than most soaring clubs in
> > the USA.
> >
> > > As to meals, well, for $10 what can you get? Do you import volunteers
> > > to cook burgers? Every day?
> >
> > Think outside the box. *What do you spend on a normal meal? *Be
> > realistic. *Try this approach: get a head count at the pilot meeting
> > for total number of people that will attend the dinner. *Send someone
> > in to town to pick up a pre-ordered carry out catering meal. *Don't go
> > to Texas De Brazil, go to a Mom and Pops inexpensive restaurant. *I
> > did this at a pilot safety meeting I hosted and it cost $5.25 per
> > person for a total of 40 people ($210 total). *We had BBQ pulled pork,
> > coleslaw, toast, french fries and a drink from the local BBQ
> > restaurant. *Charging $10 ($400 total revenue) and it's a $190
> > profit. *With a meal purchase of a large quantity that all 40 meals
> > are the same order, there is typically a discount from the normal
> > price.
> >
> > Other nights you can do a potluck dinner. *For my family of 4, we
> > could bring a a homecooked tray from the RV of something for a cost of
> > $15-20 perhaps....much less than $68.
> >
> > And just like GTA events do occasionally is reserve a room at a nearby
> > restaurant. *Remeber this from the Sunship Game? *Then each person can
> > order food that they have options to pick from. *Burger, fries, & a
> > tall glass of ice water typically cost no more than $10. *Call up the
> > local Golden Corral or Mexican joint, ask them what night has the
> > least amount of business. *Then work out a deal to reserve a section
> > for your group. *People like me on a budget will order something waaay
> > less than $17 per person.
> >
> > > On the ground you need a CD, CM, Dir Ops. These people must be fully
> > > familiar with glider contest operations. You might be able to get WX
> > > and Scorer remotely, but on site is much better. So--food and housing
> > > for these.
> >
> > I agree for a nationals. *For a regional, you can get by with much
> > less. *It's been said many times before, that having a weatherman is
> > for pure entertainment. *Your going to launch the sniffer anyway, then
> > go from there. *Now that everyone has XCSkies and Dr Jacks Blipmap via
> > their iPhone, we all know what the weather forecast is. *And even if
> > the forecast is no good, were going to attempt to get in a contest day
> > anyway! *Dir Ops? *Do you really truly need one?
> >
> > > You must have a competent Retrieve Office. They need an office, phone
> > > lines, internet
> >
> > While this is very charming and super cool to have this. *The
> > smartphone is an office, phone line & internet. *This is in everyones
> > pocket. *You really can do without it thanks to SPOT tracking. *This
> > sport has kind of outgrown this as a need. *Now it's a luxury. *Now
> > every pilot has a GPS, cell phone and SPOT tracker connected to
> > Facebook. *The SPOT tracker lets the social media website Facebook
> > know where you landed and if you need help. *Also, with GlidePath, my
> > flight is uploaded to the OLC and posted to facebook before I even
> > climb out of the cockpit (takes about 5 seconds). *Just about every
> > car has a GPS too, so it's easy to text message your Lat & Long for a
> > seamless transition from the gliderport to your off field landing
> > site. *While there isn't a need to develop turnpoint photographs all
> > night long to verify correctly rounding each turnpoint, there isn't
> > much need for a retrieve office anymore either. *Technology is freeing
> > up the retrieve office personell.
> >
> > > I could go on and on, but my fingers are tired, and you get the idea.
> > > We filtered a lot of money, and worked hard for very little profit. If
> > > we got paid $1.00 per hour we would be way ahead!
> >
> > Hartley, sorry you didn't make that much money, you deserve waaay
> > more. Your contest prevailed $18,685 in entry fees and probably more
> > revenue considering T-shirts, RV hookup fees, meals, extra tows, aero-
> > retrieves, etc. *It's sad to hear that with all that revenue your
> > contest barely broke even. *But glad that your able to make it happen..
> >
> > > Go talk at length to someone who has done this a few times.
> >
> > Why don't you talk to me to find out how our contest was so
> > profitable? *Come on over and I'll grill you a steak on the gianormous
> > stainless steel grill that was bought and given to me as a thank you
> > gift for all of my hardwork to run the contest. *I joined the SSA in
> > 1996 and have attended 2 nationals, and a half dozen regionals varying
> > as a pilot, crew and once co-manager. *Charlie & Micky Minner were
> > gracious enough to bring me under their wing and teach me to have a
> > mindset of penny pinching. *The GTA racing community has this mindset
> > and all they charge is for tows, yet they keep on having races! Keep
> > in mind, this is a volunteer sport and needs to be encouraged to stay
> > that way. *When I'm called upon to volunteer a weeks time to help
> > operate a race, I will be happy to do so.

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

Contest profitability and contest participation go hand in hand. If
contests were cheaper, more profitable, then participation would
increase.

Paying $225 a tow ($450 contest fee with 2 days of flying) and $68/
night for dinner (family of 4 @ $17) doesn't really promote racing too
well.

That's my point.