Va and negative g's & fun non-acrobatic maneuvers

[Koopas Ly]

Me again,

Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
load factors. What about negative g's?

Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
C172SP anywhere?

Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.

Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.

Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
doing anything aerobatic.

Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland :)

May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
Alex

[John Harper]

If you want to do this sort of thing, get some aerobatic instruction.
And do it in an acro aircraft. As you describe what you want to do,
it has a definite "Hey, watch this" ring to it. It's POSSIBLE to do
acro in a normal/utility category plane - as Bob Hoover has shown -
but you have to be VERY good if you're not going to break
anything. (Also it's illegal unless you reclassify the aircraft as
experimental, which brings a whole lot of other restrictions).

You should definitely not try ANY of this stuff unless you have
done some proper spin recovery training. A 172 is legal and safe to spin
(if loaded correctly) but if you haven't experienced a spin there
is a serious risk that you will panic. None of us wants to read about
you in an NTSB report.

That said... a 2G 60 degree banked turn is no big deal. Presumably
you have already done 45 degress (1.4G). Bank a bit further and
pull hard enough to maintain level flight. In a 172 it requires a fairly
strong pull but no huge deal (unlike the 182). Use the AI and
altimeter to keep track of what you're doing. Be VERY careful not
to bank a degree more than 60 degrees. At 70 degrees you are at
the limit of what the plane can take.

Floating in a 172 will stop the engine, and if you go even slightly
negative for more than a fraction of a second, will also cover the belly
of the plane with oil. This will not make you popular with the FBO.
As long as you push gently and stop before you hit zero G, nothing
bad will happen.

As soon as you start doing things like this you risk stalling and spinning.
You need to have an instinctive recovery action from an incipient
spin (opposite rudder), which takes a bit of practice - with a
spin-experienced instructor sitting beside you.

Get some acro training. It's loads of fun and will mean you can do
"extreme" non-acro stuff like this with no risk

John


"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Me again,
>
> Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
> load factors. What about negative g's?
>
> Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
> C172SP anywhere?
>
> Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
> next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
> fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
> only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
> settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
> climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
> stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
> your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
> speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.
>
> Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
> maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
> the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
> speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
> see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
> fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
> and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
> that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
> wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
> reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
> backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
> the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
> more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
> I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
> too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.
>
> Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> doing anything aerobatic.
>
> Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland :)
>
> May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
> Alex

[EDR]

Good response, John.
The note about the oil on the belly is the mark of someone who knows.

[Anyone]

Get acro instruction in a Pitts, Decathlon, etc. Doing what you want in a
172, while maybe possible, is dangerous and quite honestly, a little sad.
It's like trying to race a Geo Metro. I've got nothing against the 172,
it's just not well suited for what you want. The FBO I rent from rents a
Decathlon for $10/hr more than their SP's. I'm sure you can find one for
about what you pay for the 172.

BTW - your comment "stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick"...
a 172SP doesn't have a stick, it has a wheel. Sticks are for acro's, a 172
isn't an acro.




"Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
om...
> Me again,
>
> Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
> load factors. What about negative g's?
>
> Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
> C172SP anywhere?
>
> Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
> next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
> fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
> only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
> settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
> climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
> stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
> your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
> speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.
>
> Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
> maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
> the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
> speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
> see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
> fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
> and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
> that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
> wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
> reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
> backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
> the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
> more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
> I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
> too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.
>
> Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> doing anything aerobatic.
>
> Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland :)
>
> May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
> Alex

[Greg Esres]

<<Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
C172SP anywhere?>>

I think I calculated Vs for a negative AOA to be about 60 knots in a
172. That would put Va at about 74 knots.

[Rich Stowell]

Like many speeds in an airlane, maneuvering speed, Va, is related to
the wings-level, stall speed Vso by the square root of the g-load.
There is a positive side and a negative side.

For example, for Normal category, positive g operations, where the
design limit is +3.8-g, Va = 1.95 x Vso. (Note: this relationship
applies to CAS, so you must use the airspeed calibration figures in
the POH to move back and forth between IAS and CAS to find the actual
number you should see on the airspeed indicator).

If you know the wings-level, -1.0-g stall speed of the airplane (which
will in all likelihood be greater than the upright Vso), then you can
find the inverted Va, which will be 1.23 x the inverted Vso. Of
course, the inverted operating envelope is quite small.

As for your "trick" -- sure, it's something that can be done from a
steep climb followed by a pushover as the speed decays. But EVERYTHING
that is not bolted down in the airplane will float, not just the
pencil -- flashlights, flight bags, dirt, towbars, etc. And if the g
is too light, the engine may balk...

I'd recommend trying it with an instructor in an aerobatic airplane
instead.

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com


(Koopas Ly) wrote in message >...
> Me again,
>
> Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
> load factors. What about negative g's?
>
> Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
> C172SP anywhere?
>
> Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
> next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
> fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
> only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
> settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
> climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
> stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
> your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
> speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.
>
> Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
> maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
> the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
> speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
> see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
> fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
> and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
> that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
> wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
> reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
> backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
> the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
> more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
> I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
> too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.
>
> Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> doing anything aerobatic.
>
> Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland :)
>
> May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
> Alex

[John Harper]

Actually it's the mark of someone who has been warned MANY times
by his acro instructor :-) (so far! - :-) that is ). But now I'm flying the
Decathlon - yippee! - which has inverted systems.

John

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> Good response, John.
> The note about the oil on the belly is the mark of someone who knows.

[Tony Cox]

"Rich Stowell" > wrote in message
om...
> Like many speeds in an airlane, maneuvering speed, Va, is related to
> the wings-level, stall speed Vso by the square root of the g-load.


I have a horrible premonition that we're about to rehash
the "Overweight takeoff" thread again.....

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[EDR]

In article <1070298215.906416@sj-nntpcache-3>, John Harper
> wrote:

> Actually it's the mark of someone who has been warned MANY times
> by his acro instructor :-) (so far! - :-) that is ). But now I'm flying the
> Decathlon - yippee! - which has inverted systems.

Is your slobber tube vented for cold weather operation?
Or, do you live where it stays warm?

[Dan Thomas]

(Koopas Ly) wrote in message >...
> Me again,
>
> Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
> load factors. What about negative g's?
>
> Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
> C172SP anywhere?
>
> Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
> next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
> fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
> only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
> settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
> climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
> stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
> your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
> speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil comes
off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The only stress
on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the shallow dive created
by the maneuver. You don't have to get the nose way up or down at all,
and it doesn't require abrupt, or anywhere near full, control inputs.
Kids love it.
MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS TIED DOWN IN THE CABIN. Floating cargo
can depart through a window or it can come down hard on the pullout
and damage something.


Dan

[Jim Carter]

Do they no longer teach to "unload" the aircraft as an initial part of
unusual attitude recovery?

--
Jim Carter
Seen on a bumper sticker:
If you can read this, thank a teacher
If you can read this in English, thank a soldier.

"Anyone" > wrote in message
...
> ... Doing what you want in a
> 172, while maybe possible, is dangerous and quite honestly, a little sad.
> ...
>
>

[EDR]

In article >, Dan
Thomas > wrote:

> MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS TIED DOWN IN THE CABIN. Floating cargo
> can depart through a window or it can come down hard on the pullout
> and damage something.

And the dust and dirt from the floor will get in your eyes.

[Ron Natalie]

"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message om...

> It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil comes
> off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The only stress
> on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the shallow dive created
> by the maneuver.

It will need to be a brief amount of negative g or the pencil will not come
off the power. It will hover where it was with >= 0g.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jim Carter" > wrote in message ...
> Do they no longer teach to "unload" the aircraft as an initial part of
> unusual attitude recovery?
>

Did they ever?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jim Carter wrote:
>
> Do they no longer teach to "unload" the aircraft as an initial part of
> unusual attitude recovery?

I have this mental image of me climbing into the back seat to toss luggage out
the door before initiating recovery from an encounter with wake turbulence.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[mike regish]

My kids love it when I do this. Never floated a pencil or anything, but I
take them on "roller coaster" rides every now and then. They can't stop
giggling.


mike regish

"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message
om...
> (Koopas Ly) wrote in message
>...
>
> It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil comes
> off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The only stress
> on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the shallow dive created
> by the maneuver. You don't have to get the nose way up or down at all,
> and it doesn't require abrupt, or anywhere near full, control inputs.
> Kids love it.
> MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS TIED DOWN IN THE CABIN. Floating cargo
> can depart through a window or it can come down hard on the pullout
> and damage something.
>
>
> Dan

[Robert Moore]

(Dan Thomas) wrote

> It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
> comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
> only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.

The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[John Harper]

But the last line of your post says it all. For an ATP CFI who has
done it hundreds of times before, sure. For a fairly new pilot
who has never done it with a CFI beside him... not so good.
If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.

What do you do about getting the dust out of everywhere
afterwards? Or do you do it often enough in the same plane
that the dust doesn't accumulate (as happens with acro planes)?

John


"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> (Dan Thomas) wrote
>
> > It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> > then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
> > comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
> > only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> > shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> > nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> > anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.
>
> The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
> all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
> you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
> doesn't require areobatic training!
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI

[Dan Thomas]

EDR > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Dan
> Thomas > wrote:
>
> > MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS TIED DOWN IN THE CABIN. Floating cargo
> > can depart through a window or it can come down hard on the pullout
> > and damage something.
>
> And the dust and dirt from the floor will get in your eyes.


We keep our airplanes clean.

I'm wondering how this maneuver risks breaking or stalling the
airplane, as some earlier posters indicated. Done this numerous times,
and the carbureted engine didn't cough, either. It's only for a second
or two. G forces on pullout are minimal. People who level off too fast
from a climb can get the same effect. Rough air on a warm day, or a
windy day in the mountains, can be much worse. Should we avoid flying
then, too?

Dan

[Rich Stowell]

FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
"an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
necessary for normal flight."

What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...

And while the reply below is good, it is debatable whether or not it
is the ONLY sensible one thus far. Given that the original poster has
never done this before, isn't it prudent to suggest he get some dual
in the particular maneuver before attempting it by himself, or worse,
attempting it for the first time with the plane loaded with someone
else's kids???

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com



Robert Moore > wrote in message >...
> (Dan Thomas) wrote
>
> > It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> > then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
> > comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
> > only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> > shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> > nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> > anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.
>
> The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
> all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
> you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
> doesn't require areobatic training!
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI

[Robert Moore]

(Rich Stowell) wrote

> FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:
>
> "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
> intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
> attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
> neccessary for normal flight."

I wonder where a 45 degree steep turn fall in this context?

> In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially
> by an ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver
> results in both "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal
> acceleration," and is "not necessary for normal flight."

Attitudes in the roller-coaster maneuver need not exceed the pitch
angles encountered in short-field takeoffs and landings.

Bob Moore

[Model Flyer]

"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1070328589.456816@sj-nntpcache-3...
> But the last line of your post says it all. For an ATP CFI who has
> done it hundreds of times before, sure. For a fairly new pilot
> who has never done it with a CFI beside him... not so good.
> If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
> thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.
>
> What do you do about getting the dust out of everywhere
> afterwards? Or do you do it often enough in the same plane
> that the dust doesn't accumulate (as happens with acro planes)?
>

Hear about the Rats leaving a sinking ship, but the dust leaving an
aircraft doing aeros, sounds a hand way to clean out the insides.:-)
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


> John
>
>
> "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
> . 7...
> > (Dan Thomas) wrote
> >
> > > It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> > > then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the
pencil
> > > comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't.
The
> > > only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> > > shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> > > nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> > > anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.
> >
> > The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff
with
> > all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> > that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All
of
> > you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
> > doesn't require areobatic training!
> >
> > Bob Moore
> > ATP CFI
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rich Stowell wrote:
>
> In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
> ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
> "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
> necessary for normal flight."
>
> What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
> interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...

It just depends on what you consider to be "normal flight".

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Rich Stowell]

Robert Moore > wrote in message >...
> (Rich Stowell) wrote
>
> > FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:
> >
> > "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
> > intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
> > attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
> > neccessary for normal flight."
>
> I wonder where a 45 degree steep turn fall in this context?


It depends who's watching, sort of like "careless or reckless
operation." For example, a couple has lived under the crosswind
approach to a small airport for the last 70 years (and not without
animosity towards the airport for that long). During that time, the
couple has never witnessed an airplane do anything other than smooth,
shallow banked turns to enter the pattern. One day, in comes a pilot
fast and low who crisply cranks the airplane into a 45 (heck, why not
even 60) degree bank. One could argue that given the precedent set
over the previous 70 years, that type of maneuver was "not necessary
for normal flight" over the couple's house at that airport. I'm sure
the couple could find some lawyer somewhere to make that case. The
definition of aerobatic flight is abstract enough that it could be
used against a pilot if someone is looking for a reason--any
reason--to bust the pilot. Of course, lots of other FARs can be
interpreted against the pilot as well.


> > In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially
> > by an ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver
> > results in both "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal
> > acceleration," and is "not necessary for normal flight."
>
> Attitudes in the roller-coaster maneuver need not exceed the pitch
> angles encountered in short-field takeoffs and landings.


True for some more skilled in performing the maneuver than others.
That still doesn't get around the "abnormal accleration" or "not
necessary for normal flight" caveats. The point really was to
encourage the original poster not to experiment with unfamiliar
maneuvers on his own, but to take 0.5 hours of dual for safety's sake.

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com

[darryl]

"Anyone" > wrote in message >...
> Get acro instruction in a Pitts, Decathlon, etc. Doing what you want in a
> 172, while maybe possible, is dangerous and quite honestly, a little sad.
> It's like trying to race a Geo Metro. I've got nothing against the 172,
> it's just not well suited for what you want. The FBO I rent from rents a
> Decathlon for $10/hr more than their SP's. I'm sure you can find one for
> about what you pay for the 172.
>
> BTW - your comment "stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick"...
> a 172SP doesn't have a stick, it has a wheel. Sticks are for acro's, a 172
> isn't an acro.
>
>
>
>
> "Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Me again,
> >
> > Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
> > load factors. What about negative g's?
> >
> > Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
> > C172SP anywhere?
> >
> > Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
> > next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
> > fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
> > only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
> > settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
> > climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
> > stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
> > your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
> > speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.
> >
> > Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
> > maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
> > the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
> > speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
> > see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
> > fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
> > and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
> > that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
> > wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
> > reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
> > backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
> > the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
> > more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
> > I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
> > too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.
> >
> > Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> > within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> > buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> > doing anything aerobatic.
> >
> > Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland :)
> >
> > May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
> > Alex

Aside from the 172 not being stressed for fooling around like this it
is a pain in the backside. Not quite like a truck, more like going
to a sports car race in a SUV. A good plane to get aero in would be
a 150 aerobat (did they make a 152 aerobat?) I'm assuming you've
been flying mostly Cessnas. The feel and controls will be familiar
and you will have to finesses it to get clean manuvers.
You can avoid the trouble of "taming a taildragger" and still learn
some good stuff and have some fun.
You can go for the Serious Iron later if you get addicted.
Darryl
46 Taylorcraft

[Paul Sengupta]

People flying inverted usually manage to find dirt they never knew about.

Paul

"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message
om...
> EDR > wrote in message
>...
> > And the dust and dirt from the floor will get in your eyes.
>
> We keep our airplanes clean.

[Paul Sengupta]

Does anyone have a link to the "floating dog" video? Or was it just
a still photograph? I seem to remember seeing a video where some
guys had a dog on the back seat and a camera on the dash. When
they "unloaded" the plane, the dog floated up from behind the front
seats then went back down again as they re-established 1G and/or
pulled out. The dog seemed to like doing it.

Paul

"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message
> MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS TIED DOWN IN THE CABIN. Floating cargo
> can depart through a window or it can come down hard on the pullout
> and damage something.

[Paul Sengupta]

I think the bit where the original poster said:

"I am not looking to induce negative g's, only zero g's and zero lift."

sort of answers that. He's just being careful, just in case.

Paul

"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1070328589.456816@sj-nntpcache-3...
> If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
> thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Normal" flight. I once gave an instructor a headache. I was
getting checked out in a 130hp 150 aerobat. We did a short/
obstructed field take-off, climbing at around 60mph, seeing only
sky through the windscreen. He pulled the throttle on me for an
EFATO. I managed to not lose any airspeed (that I could see)
and get it going 60mph downhill...and giving the instructor's head
a knock on the ceiling as I did it. He remarked that it wasn't quite
so critical to get the nose down so quickly.

Paul

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> I "float" stuff with
> all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> that's in a Cessna-172.

[Michael]

<aol>Me too!</aol>

Robert Moore > wrote
> (Dan Thomas) wrote
> > It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> > then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
> > comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
> > only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> > shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> > nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> > anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.
>
> The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
> all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
> you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
> doesn't require areobatic training!
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI

[One's Too Many]

>
> Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> doing anything aerobatic.

From level flight at slow-normal cruise, with plenty of altitude to
spare (i.e 5000 AGL), pull the power back to idle and bank the thing
over to almost 60 degrees letting the nose fall over in a slow steep
banked 180 degree turn. Watch your airspeed and make sure it stays at
or below Va. Level out and then do it again in the opposite bank, to
make a big falling slow figure-8 pattern as you descend. Keep your
bank at or below 60 degrees and the nose down angle less than 30
degrees and you're still legal. Because you're not maintaining level
flight in the 60 deg banks, you're not really pulling any Gs in the
banks either. The most Gs you pull is when you level out after you're
done with the steep banks. Maybe 1.5 Gs at the most if you're sloppy
about it. One of my favorite "fun" things since you get a windshield
full of straight-down plus a wee bit of almost-zero-G feeling without
hardly any stress on the aircraft at all.

[Dave Stadt]

"One's Too Many" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> > within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> > buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> > doing anything aerobatic.
>
> From level flight at slow-normal cruise, with plenty of altitude to
> spare (i.e 5000 AGL), pull the power back to idle and bank the thing
> over to almost 60 degrees letting the nose fall over in a slow steep
> banked 180 degree turn. Watch your airspeed and make sure it stays at
> or below Va. Level out and then do it again in the opposite bank, to
> make a big falling slow figure-8 pattern as you descend. Keep your
> bank at or below 60 degrees and the nose down angle less than 30
> degrees and you're still legal. Because you're not maintaining level
> flight in the 60 deg banks, you're not really pulling any Gs in the
> banks either. The most Gs you pull is when you level out after you're
> done with the steep banks. Maybe 1.5 Gs at the most if you're sloppy
> about it. One of my favorite "fun" things since you get a windshield
> full of straight-down plus a wee bit of almost-zero-G feeling without
> hardly any stress on the aircraft at all.

Got a ride in an L19 tow plane once. This is how they got down quick for
the next tow. What a hoot! One plop to the left and one to the right and
3,000 feet of altitude disappeared in a few seconds.

[Anyone]

"darryl" > wrote in message
m...
> "Anyone" > wrote in message
>...
> > Get acro instruction in a Pitts, Decathlon, etc. Doing what you want in
a
> > 172, while maybe possible, is dangerous and quite honestly, a little
sad.
> > It's like trying to race a Geo Metro. I've got nothing against the 172,
> > it's just not well suited for what you want. The FBO I rent from rents
a
> > Decathlon for $10/hr more than their SP's. I'm sure you can find one
for
> > about what you pay for the 172.
> >
> > BTW - your comment "stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the
stick"...
> > a 172SP doesn't have a stick, it has a wheel. Sticks are for acro's, a
172
> > isn't an acro.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Koopas Ly" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Me again,
> > >
> > > Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
> > > load factors. What about negative g's?
> > >
> > > Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
> > > C172SP anywhere?
> > >
> > > Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
> > > next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
> > > fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
> > > only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
> > > settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
> > > climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
> > > stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
> > > your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
> > > speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.
> > >
> > > Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
> > > maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
> > > the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
> > > speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
> > > see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
> > > fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
> > > and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
> > > that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
> > > wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
> > > reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
> > > backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
> > > the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
> > > more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
> > > I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
> > > too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.
> > >
> > > Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
> > > within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
> > > buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
> > > doing anything aerobatic.
> > >
> > > Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland :)
> > >
> > > May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
> > > Alex
>
> Aside from the 172 not being stressed for fooling around like this it
> is a pain in the backside. Not quite like a truck, more like going
> to a sports car race in a SUV. A good plane to get aero in would be
> a 150 aerobat (did they make a 152 aerobat?) I'm assuming you've
> been flying mostly Cessnas. The feel and controls will be familiar
> and you will have to finesses it to get clean manuvers.
> You can avoid the trouble of "taming a taildragger" and still learn
> some good stuff and have some fun.
> You can go for the Serious Iron later if you get addicted.
> Darryl
> 46 Taylorcraft

> You can avoid the trouble of "taming a taildragger"
It'll make him a better pilot if he learns. If he can't control the plane
well enough to land a taildragger he shouldn't be doing acro. Trikes are
for kids and wheels are for cars. Taildragger with a stick is the only way
to go.

'46 Taylorcraft - nice, very nice.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Sengupta wrote:
>
> People flying inverted usually manage to find dirt they never knew about.

Once they find it, they know about it, though. I hear that it seems to wind up
in the eyes.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Sengupta wrote:
>
> He remarked that it wasn't quite so critical to get the nose down so quickly.

I didn't like stalls in my primary training. With the Cessna, you get the nose
a bit down, put the throttle in, get the carb heat off, and bring the flaps up.
I would slam the throttle forward with the palm of my hand, while getting the
carb heat off with my thumb. My instructor said it wasn't necessary to move that
fast.

After the third practice run for the day, she told me that she had recently had
a candidate who had been criticized by the examiner for not getting the plane
cleaned up rapidly enough. She said "When I send you over, I'm going to call him
up and say 'Have I got a candidate for you!'".

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Paul Sengupta]

"darryl" > wrote in message
m...
> Aside from the 172 not being stressed for fooling around like this it
> is a pain in the backside.

A 60 degree turn and a 0g bunt?

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

For added effect use an aerobatic plane and bank to just over
the 90 degrees. Got my g-meter up to about 3 pulling out of
one of those.

Paul

"One's Too Many" > wrote in message
om...
> From level flight at slow-normal cruise, with plenty of altitude to
> spare (i.e 5000 AGL), pull the power back to idle and bank the thing
> over to almost 60 degrees letting the nose fall over in a slow steep
> banked 180 degree turn. Watch your airspeed and make sure it stays at
> or below Va. Level out and then do it again in the opposite bank, to
> make a big falling slow figure-8 pattern as you descend. Keep your
> bank at or below 60 degrees and the nose down angle less than 30
> degrees and you're still legal. Because you're not maintaining level
> flight in the 60 deg banks, you're not really pulling any Gs in the
> banks either. The most Gs you pull is when you level out after you're
> done with the steep banks. Maybe 1.5 Gs at the most if you're sloppy
> about it. One of my favorite "fun" things since you get a windshield
> full of straight-down plus a wee bit of almost-zero-G feeling without
> hardly any stress on the aircraft at all.

[mike regish]

Ever see the Americas Funniest Video where the camera shows two people in
the front seat of a small plane. The shadow is changing, but you can't tell
what they're up to untill the dog comes floating up out of the back seat,
does a quarter turn and floats up in between them.

It's hilarious.

mike regish

"Rich Stowell" > wrote in message
om...
> FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:
>
> "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
> intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
> attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
> neccessary for normal flight."
>
> In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
> ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
> "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
> necessary for normal flight."
>
> What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
> interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...
>
> And while the reply below is good, it is debatable whether or not it
> is the ONLY sensible one thus far. Given that the original poster has
> never done this before, isn't it prudent to suggest he get some dual
> in the particular maneuver before attempting it by himself, or worse,
> attempting it for the first time with the plane loaded with someone
> else's kids???
>
> Rich
> http://www.richstowell.com
>
>
>
> Robert Moore > wrote in message
>...
> > (Dan Thomas) wrote
> >
> > > It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> > > then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
> > > comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
> > > only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> > > shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> > > nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> > > anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.
> >
> > The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
> > all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> > that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
> > you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
> > doesn't require areobatic training!
> >
> > Bob Moore
> > ATP CFI

[Paul Sengupta]

If I moved the throttle forward too quickly on the 172 I learned
on, there would be an almighty bang as it backfired and it would
cough and splutter and take longer to pick up again. I learned
quickly to move the throttle forward smoothly!

Paul

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> I would slam the throttle forward with the palm of my hand, while getting
the
> carb heat off with my thumb. My instructor said it wasn't necessary to
move that
> fast.

[Dale]

In article <0yuzb.19348$_M.65660@attbi_s54>,
"mike regish" > wrote:

> Ever see the Americas Funniest Video where the camera shows two people in
> the front seat of a small plane. The shadow is changing, but you can't tell
> what they're up to untill the dog comes floating up out of the back seat,
> does a quarter turn and floats up in between them.

I didn't see that video but I did see my wife to the same thing one day
when we hit a rather strong windshear.

> It's hilarious.

For me, not so much for her.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Rich Stowell]

Yes, that was funny -- I seem to recall they floated a weiner dog or
something small like that...




"mike regish" > wrote in message news:<0yuzb.19348$_M.65660@attbi_s54>...
> Ever see the Americas Funniest Video where the camera shows two people in
> the front seat of a small plane. The shadow is changing, but you can't tell
> what they're up to untill the dog comes floating up out of the back seat,
> does a quarter turn and floats up in between them.
>
> It's hilarious.
>
> mike regish
>
> "Rich Stowell" > wrote in message
> om...
> > FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:
> >
> > "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
> > intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
> > attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
> > neccessary for normal flight."
> >
> > In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
> > ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
> > "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
> > necessary for normal flight."
> >
> > What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
> > interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...
> >
> > And while the reply below is good, it is debatable whether or not it
> > is the ONLY sensible one thus far. Given that the original poster has
> > never done this before, isn't it prudent to suggest he get some dual
> > in the particular maneuver before attempting it by himself, or worse,
> > attempting it for the first time with the plane loaded with someone
> > else's kids???
> >
> > Rich
> > http://www.richstowell.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Moore > wrote in message
> >...
> > > (Dan Thomas) wrote
> > >
> > > > It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
> > > > then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
> > > > comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
> > > > only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
> > > > shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
> > > > nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
> > > > anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.
> > >
> > > The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
> > > all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
> > > that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
> > > you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
> > > doesn't require areobatic training!
> > >
> > > Bob Moore
> > > ATP CFI

[One's Too Many]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message >...
> For added effect use an aerobatic plane and bank to just over
> the 90 degrees. Got my g-meter up to about 3 pulling out of
> one of those.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
..
..
..
..
Ralph Buick

[Model Flyer]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message ...
> If I moved the throttle forward too quickly on the 172 I learned
> on, there would be an almighty bang as it backfired and it would
> cough and splutter and take longer to pick up again. I learned
> quickly to move the throttle forward smoothly!
>
> Paul

Oh, I do love stalls, you could get great stalls in a Beagle Pup.
Sadly I only had one day of stalls and we lost our flying field, our
Instructors before I got to spins. I'm sure I would have loved spins,
however neither the Rallye 100 nor a piper cherokee are cleared for
spin training, anyway we don't do full spin training anymore.:-)
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)



>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I would slam the throttle forward with the palm of my hand, while
getting
> the
> > carb heat off with my thumb. My instructor said it wasn't
necessary to
> move that
> > fast.
>
>

[Model Flyer]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message ...
> For added effect use an aerobatic plane and bank to just over
> the 90 degrees. Got my g-meter up to about 3 pulling out of
> one of those.
>

What plane was that?
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


> Paul
>
> "One's Too Many" > wrote in message
> om...
> > From level flight at slow-normal cruise, with plenty of altitude
to
> > spare (i.e 5000 AGL), pull the power back to idle and bank the
thing
> > over to almost 60 degrees letting the nose fall over in a slow
steep
> > banked 180 degree turn. Watch your airspeed and make sure it
stays at
> > or below Va. Level out and then do it again in the opposite bank,
to
> > make a big falling slow figure-8 pattern as you descend. Keep
your
> > bank at or below 60 degrees and the nose down angle less than 30
> > degrees and you're still legal. Because you're not maintaining
level
> > flight in the 60 deg banks, you're not really pulling any Gs in
the
> > banks either. The most Gs you pull is when you level out after
you're
> > done with the steep banks. Maybe 1.5 Gs at the most if you're
sloppy
> > about it. One of my favorite "fun" things since you get a
windshield
> > full of straight-down plus a wee bit of almost-zero-G feeling
without
> > hardly any stress on the aircraft at all.
>
>

[Dave Russell]

(One's Too Many) wrote in message >...
> Because you're not maintaining level
> flight in the 60 deg banks, you're not really pulling any Gs in the
> banks either.

Unless something has changed since the last time I studied Newtonian
physics, this statement can't be right. If you're banked 60 degrees
and the ball's centered, you *must* be either pulling 2 G's or
accelerating vertically (i.e., picking up airspeed). There is no
other possibility (and this kind of misunderstanding can be very
dangerous in the pattern).

Dave Russell
8KCAB