Colibri II thinks I have an engine

[akiley]

I just did my 5 hour glide for silver/gold duration. My Colibri II's IGC file, as reported in SeeYou PC, shows the correct Takeoff time, Begin soaring time, Landing time, Duration, but then claims a Soaring End time 2 hours 42 minutes into the flight which was actually 5 hours 15 minutes total. It then claims an Engine time of 00:02:08 which does not relate to anything. Especially the fact that our Cirrus does not have an engine. The time on tow was 2 minutes, 27 seconds.

The IGC trace in SeeYou appears complete and uninterrupted when I zoom into the exact time that it claimed soaring ended.

Any ideas? This Colibri was new this year and it's the first flight of about 9 that shows a problem. I have it fairly well exposed to the sky just above the canopy frame by the vent window. I wonder if wind buffetting near the unit could triggered engine run. ... Aaron

[Wojciech Scigala]

It's not problem with Colibri. It might be that it has recorded some
noise level which was automatically interpreted as engine run by SeeYou.
If you fly motorless glider, check "Pure glider" in flight properties to
tell SeeYou to ignore noise level.

And remember, SeeYou is a great analisys tool, but it's not a ultimate
claim validation system. It's sometimes wrong in it's automatic guesses
but it does makes claim invalid.

--
Wojtuś

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:53:03 PM UTC-7, akiley wrote:
> I just did my 5 hour glide for silver/gold duration. My Colibri II's IGC file, as reported in SeeYou PC, shows the correct Takeoff time, Begin soaring time, Landing time, Duration, but then claims a Soaring End time 2 hours 42 minutes into the flight which was actually 5 hours 15 minutes total. It then claims an Engine time of 00:02:08 which does not relate to anything.. Especially the fact that our Cirrus does not have an engine. The time on tow was 2 minutes, 27 seconds.
>
> The IGC trace in SeeYou appears complete and uninterrupted when I zoom into the exact time that it claimed soaring ended.
>
> Any ideas? This Colibri was new this year and it's the first flight of about 9 that shows a problem. I have it fairly well exposed to the sky just above the canopy frame by the vent window. I wonder if wind buffetting near the unit could triggered engine run. ... Aaron

Do you have a link to the IGC file?

When you look at the ENL data what do you see? Opening a vent (I note your "by the vent window..." comment), repositioning the flight recorder near a vent, putting down the gear etc. may all be enough to fool the ENL processing. Or maybe something else is going on here, should be kind of obvious by poking around in SeeYou (if not to you, at least to others, so give us a link to the file..).

Your OO should hopefully be able to note when the flight actually ended, note any discrepancies, here etc. and include that in the application submission.

Darryl

[akiley]

Thanks, and also thanks for your web site's badge help files which I have found useful.

I bet is was the wind from the vent. I was even thinking about keeping the Colibrii cool after reading of electronics failing due to overheating. It was a really hot day.

I'm not sure how I upload my IGC to the group, but it's on OLC here. (Region 6, 6/27/20012, Aaron Kiley). ... Aaron

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/daily.html?df=2012-06-27&sp=2012&rt=olc&st=olc&c=US&sc=6

[Wojciech Scigala]

Użytkownik akiley napisał:

> I'm not sure how I upload my IGC to the group, but it's on OLC here. (Region 6, 6/27/20012, Aaron Kiley). ... Aaron
> http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/daily.html?df=2012-06-27&sp=2012&rt=olc&st=olc&c=US&sc=6
Your guess was right, it was a noise spike.

Edit->Flight Properties->set "Pure Glider".

--
Wojtuś

[akiley]

Is this OK for badge flights? Don't I have to prove I'm not running an engine? ..l Aaron

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:56:43 PM UTC-7, akiley wrote:
> Is this OK for badge flights? Don't I have to prove I'm not running an engine? ..l Aaron

Oops obvious bad ENL glitches there. You should look at those and think back - were you opening the nearby vent window when they occurred?

You don't have an engine to run, so no you do not need to prove you are not running it. You are not even required to have an ENL capable flight recorder, b but you just happen to and its just recording some noise. Just save hassle and have the OO note that you don't have there are spurious ENL glitches in the file and that, indeed your glider does not have an engine.

Darryl

[akiley]

OK, my bad. The Colibri was mounted near the side vent and I remember using my hand to divert extra air into the hit cockpit. Lesson learned.

....Aaron

[[email protected]]

I've had one case in which my Colibi recorded an "engine running" in flight in my ASW-15. I tried several ways to try to duplicate the problem with cockpit noise (side window open, side window vent open, hand out the side window, nose vent full open, high speed flight, gear down, full forward slip, full forward slip with gear down, window open and nose vent full open...) NONE of these produced a noticeable increase in recorded ENL as seen on SeeYou. On the other hand by looking at the ENL trace I can determine pretty accurately when the tow rope was released. Because of this I thought that the noise recorder might be filtered so it only detects noise in the spectrum produced by engines.

I've also had one case in which the Colibri said that ten minutes after I had parked my glider by the trailer I flew five Km. NW and back to the trailer at ground level in twenty seconds. I've completed over three hundred flights with the Colibri and these are the only two anomalous records it's produced and neither one caused a problem with OLC or a badge flight though.

[Peter F[_2_]]

Doesn't the sporting code require that an OO remove the logger from the
glider & download the trace?

If the logger has been outside of a "controlled environment" for this long
will the claim be valid?

PF

[Darryl Ramm]

And I expect the OO has that trace he downloaded. There is nothing mentioned here that should imply any issues related to that, so I am not understanding why there is even the slightest basis for concern.

Ultimately it's just a flight log to show continuity/duration of flight, and a check for release height. It's like the most boring use of an IGC file imaginable.

Darryl

[Tom S]

On 7/2/12 1:52 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> And I expect the OO has that trace he downloaded. There is nothing mentioned here that should imply any issues related to that, so I am not understanding why there is even the slightest basis for concern.
>
> Ultimately it's just a flight log to show continuity/duration of flight, and a check for release height. It's like the most boring use of an IGC file imaginable.

I agree that from a technical, engineering standpoint there's nothing to
see here, but the FAI provides a set of rules that all pilots are
required to follow.

These rules may be arcane, and often easy to circumvent, but they apply
the same for a world record as for a silver badge leg.

So please read and understand the rules. If there is a question, ask it
*BEFORE* the flight. Don't try to get forgiveness after. That said,
the SSA badge dude, as well as the badge & record committee will do our
best to validate your claim.

Remember, it is the Official Observer's duty to oversee and validate the
flight for claiming. According to the sporting code, the pilot is not
to touch any of the recording equipment. (yeah, right! ;-)

-Tom
(A member of the SSA Badge and Records committee)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 7:56:40 PM UTC-7, Tom S wrote:
> On 7/2/12 1:52 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > And I expect the OO has that trace he downloaded. There is nothing mentioned here that should imply any issues related to that, so I am not understanding why there is even the slightest basis for concern.
> >
> > Ultimately it's just a flight log to show continuity/duration of flight, and a check for release height. It's like the most boring use of an IGC file imaginable.
>
> I agree that from a technical, engineering standpoint there's nothing to
> see here, but the FAI provides a set of rules that all pilots are
> required to follow.
>
> These rules may be arcane, and often easy to circumvent, but they apply
> the same for a world record as for a silver badge leg.
>
> So please read and understand the rules. If there is a question, ask it
> *BEFORE* the flight. Don't try to get forgiveness after. That said,
> the SSA badge dude, as well as the badge & record committee will do our
> best to validate your claim.
>
> Remember, it is the Official Observer's duty to oversee and validate the
> flight for claiming. According to the sporting code, the pilot is not
> to touch any of the recording equipment. (yeah, right! ;-)
>
> -Tom
> (A member of the SSA Badge and Records committee)

Again, why are we diverging off to this discussion? It has no reverence to the original post or questions raised--and nothing was said that implied the OO had not performed their duty. A pilot can take a copy of their IGC file and submit it to OLC, share it with whoever they want, ask questions about the flight performance or technical aspects of the IGC file contents etc. None of that has any relevance to the flow of a badge applciation happening from that same flight.

But since we are here, some of the above is just wrong. Nowhere in the FAI sporting code does it say "the pilot is not to touch any of the recording equipment". And I'd hate people here to think this is a literal requirement since in many situations the OO may need the pilot's help in downloading flight traces etc. becuase only the pilot has the suitable equipment (e.g. laptop with a working serial port or adapter) and know how to operate it. And the OO are fully able to get that help as long as the OO is supervising the operation....

SC3 4.5.6.(d). "AFTER FLIGHT After landing, the OO shall check any seals applied to each GPS recorder before flight and perform or supervise the transfer of flight data from each device...."

Clearly all this should be discussed between the pilot and OO well before the flight.

And pilots may of course also touch the flight recorder (or position recorder) during the flight as long as they don't taper with the device in way that could affect the recorded performance, that is also covered in the sporting code SC3 A9 (for GPS position recorders) and 4.5.6(c). I won't waste space quoting those parts here.

Darryl