Certified to Experimental?

[Jeff Franks]

Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?

Seems there are LOTS of great options out there for non-certified flight
instruments (EFIS's and such) available for not much more than a song and a
dance, but you can't put them in a certified plane (my understanding
anyway).

If I'm a fair weather, non-commercial pilot, why would I care if the FAA
stamped my alternator or not? Cause if they do, the price jumps 500% for
the same part that's on my Dodge.

(all that said, I understand that the certification is there for safety
purposes and that I will lose the "promise" of the FAA saying that its a
well proven part).


Thanks

[Dan Luke]

"Jeff Franks" wrote:
> If I'm a fair weather, non-commercial pilot, why would I care if the
> FAA stamped my alternator or not?

You might not care about your alternator, but you probably *would* care
when you found out what your "experimental" 172 was worth when you tried
to sell it.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Peter R.]

Jeff Franks ) wrote:

> Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
> aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?

A few weeks ago, I saw a 2003 C182 that had been "demoted" to an
Experimental due to the installed Garmin G1000 avionics. I was told that
this aircraft could not carry passengers because of this status, so we were
unable to see the avionics in action.

FWIW...


--
Peter












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[Peter Duniho]

"Jeff Franks" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
> aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?

See Part 21. In particular, 21.191 summarizes the kinds of experimental
certificates available.

In answer to your question: it IS possible to get an experimental certficate
for a C172. However, I don't think you'd be able to use either the
"amateur-built" or "kit-built" categories if all you've done is put
non-certified equipment on the plane. And it's unlikely you'd find the
restrictions on the use of your airplane acceptable in the other categories
of experimental certificate (and only a couple others allow the certificate
to last indefinitely anyway).

In other words, I don't think there's any practical way to accomplish what
you're asking about. I suppose you could dismantle a C172 completely, build
a "new" plane from scratch from the parts, and call it "amateur-built". But
if you're going to go to that much trouble, I'd just build a real homebuilt.

Pete

[Dale]

In article >,
"Jeff Franks" > wrote:

> Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
> aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?

It's possible and is done quite a bit for specific purposes. An example
would be many aircraft in Alaska that are operated in the "Restricted"
category allowing them to carry things like canoes strapped to the
floats, plywood in a rack under the belly, etc.

Being in the "Experimental" category has some restrictions. You operate
under a letter from the FAA that outlines "Operating Limitations". Some
of the restrictions that apply to a/c operated as "Experimental" are no
operation for hire, no skkydiving allowed, you may or may not be able to
carry passengers other than required crew, no operation over densely
populated areas or in congested airways, VFR only. There may also be
restrictions on how far from home you can go.

As another poster mentioned, when it comes time to sell unless the buyer
wants an experimental airplane you either have the expense of getting
the airplane back to "Standard" or reduce the price.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[BTIZ]

could not carry pax in an experimental? happens all the time...
many home builts and gliders are certified experimental..

the aircraft must be marked "experimental" in letters of a stated size and
in an area visible to the pax

must have been an insurance thing..

BT

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jeff Franks ) wrote:
>
> > Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
> > aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?
>
> A few weeks ago, I saw a 2003 C182 that had been "demoted" to an
> Experimental due to the installed Garmin G1000 avionics. I was told that
> this aircraft could not carry passengers because of this status, so we
were
> unable to see the avionics in action.
>
> FWIW...
>
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Neal]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:29:35 -0800, "BTIZ" >
wrote:

>could not carry pax in an experimental? happens all the time...
>many home builts and gliders are certified experimental..
>
>the aircraft must be marked "experimental" in letters of a stated size and
>in an area visible to the pax
>
>must have been an insurance thing..
>

When the FAA grants an experimental cert on a former standard cert
aircraft, they virtually always remove your ability to legally carry
pax afterwards. This is the established precedent.

What we need is an "experimental-antique" type of cert that would
allow full owner maintenance and simple A&P annual "condition
inspections" on old, small planes just like the homebuilt aircraft
enjoy today.

[Peter Duniho]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Jdvzb.2374$yf.275@fed1read01...
> could not carry pax in an experimental? happens all the time...
> many home builts and gliders are certified experimental..

Not all experimentals carry the "amateur" or "kit-built" designation.

> the aircraft must be marked "experimental" in letters of a stated size and
> in an area visible to the pax

True, for experimentals that are permitted to carry passengers. So?

> must have been an insurance thing..

No, it was more likely an FAA thing. As in, with the installed avionics,
the plane was probably being operated under an R&D or "showing compliance"
designation, neither of which allow the carriage of passengers.

Pete

[BTIZ]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:Jdvzb.2374$yf.275@fed1read01...
> > could not carry pax in an experimental? happens all the time...
> > many home builts and gliders are certified experimental..
>
> Not all experimentals carry the "amateur" or "kit-built" designation.

True

>
> > the aircraft must be marked "experimental" in letters of a stated size
and
> > in an area visible to the pax
>
> True, for experimentals that are permitted to carry passengers. So?
>
just a side bar note

> > must have been an insurance thing..
>
> No, it was more likely an FAA thing. As in, with the installed avionics,
> the plane was probably being operated under an R&D or "showing compliance"
> designation, neither of which allow the carriage of passengers.
>
> Pete
>
>

could be...

[Robert Moore]

"BTIZ" > wrote

> could not carry pax in an experimental? happens all the time...
> many home builts and gliders are certified experimental..

There are several categories of "Experimental".
1 Amateur Built
2 Exhibition
3 Research and Development
4 Air Racing
5 Crew Training
6 Market Survey
7 To Show Compliance With The CFR

Sounds as if you are only familiar with Amateur Built and Exhibition.

Bob Moore

[Bob Martin]

> Being in the "Experimental" category has some restrictions. You operate
> under a letter from the FAA that outlines "Operating Limitations". Some
> of the restrictions that apply to a/c operated as "Experimental" are no
> operation for hire, no skkydiving allowed, you may or may not be able to
> carry passengers other than required crew, no operation over densely
> populated areas or in congested airways, VFR only. There may also be
> restrictions on how far from home you can go.

Well, it depends... our plane is flown under "experimental" (it's an RV-6)
but we can carry one passenger (since there are only 2 seats), could fly IFR
if we had the instrumentation (but we don't, at least right now)... also,
the "densely populated areas or in congested airways" limitation no longer
applies, since we're out of the flight-test period. And we can fly anywhere
we wanted to.

However, we still cannot operate anything for hire.

[Dave S]

There is more than one category of Experimental... and a certified
airplane that is "demoted" to experimental is most certainly NOT
"amatuer built".

Dave

BTIZ wrote:
> could not carry pax in an experimental? happens all the time...
> many home builts and gliders are certified experimental..
>
> the aircraft must be marked "experimental" in letters of a stated size and
> in an area visible to the pax
>
> must have been an insurance thing..
>
> BT
>
> "Peter R." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jeff Franks ) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
>>>aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?
>>
>>A few weeks ago, I saw a 2003 C182 that had been "demoted" to an
>>Experimental due to the installed Garmin G1000 avionics. I was told that
>>this aircraft could not carry passengers because of this status, so we
>
> were
>
>>unable to see the avionics in action.
>>
>>FWIW...
>>
>>
>>--
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
> News==----
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>
> Newsgroups
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>

[Michael]

"Jeff Franks" > wrote
> Just wondering. Is it possible (read practical) to take a certified
> aircraft (C172 for example) and have it "demoted" to an Experimental?
>
> Seems there are LOTS of great options out there for non-certified flight
> instruments (EFIS's and such) available for not much more than a song and a
> dance, but you can't put them in a certified plane (my understanding
> anyway).
>
> If I'm a fair weather, non-commercial pilot, why would I care if the FAA
> stamped my alternator or not? Cause if they do, the price jumps 500% for
> the same part that's on my Dodge.
>
> (all that said, I understand that the certification is there for safety
> purposes and that I will lose the "promise" of the FAA saying that its a
> well proven part).

First off, the alternator is not the same as on your Dodge - no unless
the Dodge you drive is 20+ years old. So basically your aircraft
alternator is significantly worse than the alternator on your Dodge.

Second, if you make an experimental out of a certified airplane
(rather than building one from scratch or a kit) you get operating
limitations that are pretty draconian, and basically make the airplane
useless. As an example, you can't go more than 300 miles from home
unless you're going to an exhibition, and every trip you make for the
year must be scheduled in advance. This is done to keep people from
doing exactly what you propose.

Michael