IR checkrides

[Phil McAverty]

Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.

Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than others
and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the checkride
then its done in IMC.

I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC would be
my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a hood
and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also give
the examiner something more to concentrate on too.

A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.

Phil

[Marcus Walls]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:18:19 -0000, "Phil McAverty"
> wrote:

>Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
>Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than others
>and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the checkride
>then its done in IMC.
>
>I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC would be
>my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a hood
>and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also give
>the examiner something more to concentrate on too.
>
>A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.
>
>Phil
>

Many examiners will not do an IR checkride in IMC. I believe in
order to do so, the examiner would be considered PIC, since you'd need
to file on his ticket.
Also certain manuvours will be more difficult to accomidate under
IMC (i.e. unusual attitudes: I believe you'd need to request a block
clearance to pull it off)

Your best best is to call your examiner ahead of time and get his
opinion.

Marcus

[David Reinhart]

No, they have to be done in VFR.

There's several reasons for this. One of them is that some of the tasks
required (like unsual attitudes) would require a block altitude clearance and
clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. Obviously in busy terminal
airspace that could be difficult to do.

On the legal side, the FAA requires the inspector or DE to make it clear to the
applicant that he or she is the pilot in command, not the person giving the
checkride. That being the case, since the applicant is not instrument rated he
or she can not act as PIC of an aircraft operating under IFR.

Dave Reinhart


Phil McAverty wrote:

> Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
> Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than others
> and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the checkride
> then its done in IMC.
>
> I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC would be
> my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a hood
> and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also give
> the examiner something more to concentrate on too.
>
> A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.
>
> Phil

[Phil McAverty]

"David Reinhart" > wrote in message
...
> No, they have to be done in VFR.
>
> There's several reasons for this. One of them is that some of the tasks
> required (like unsual attitudes) would require a block altitude clearance
and
> clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. Obviously in busy terminal
> airspace that could be difficult to do.
>
> On the legal side, the FAA requires the inspector or DE to make it clear
to the
> applicant that he or she is the pilot in command, not the person giving
the
> checkride. That being the case, since the applicant is not instrument
rated he
> or she can not act as PIC of an aircraft operating under IFR.

Thanks, that all seems to make sense.

My next question, which State has the smoothest air, you know the type that
makes you feel as if you are gliding on glass.

[Craig Prouse]

"David Reinhart" wrote:

> No, they have to be done in VFR.

There exist counterexamples.

My own instrument check ride was conducted mostly under IFR. We were in
visual flight conditions -- perhaps not always legally VMC, but that's not
relevant to the legalities of flying under IFR.


> There's several reasons for this. One of them is that some of the tasks
> required (like unsual attitudes) would require a block altitude clearance and
> clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. Obviously in busy terminal
> airspace that could be difficult to do.

We did cancel IFR for this purpose, but that was only about five minutes out
of a check ride that ran between 1.5 and 2.0 hours.


> On the legal side, the FAA requires the inspector or DE to make it clear
> to the applicant that he or she is the pilot in command, not the person
> giving the checkride. That being the case, since the applicant is not
> instrument rated he or she can not act as PIC of an aircraft operating
> under IFR.

On the legal side, who would be the PIC for a Private check ride? Once
again the applicant is not technically qualified. It would be quite a
contradiction to say that a DE is PIC for the Private ride but not for the
Instrument ride.

[John Roncallo]

Phil McAverty wrote:

> Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
> Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than others
> and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the checkride
> then its done in IMC.
>
> I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC would be
> my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a hood
> and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also give
> the examiner something more to concentrate on too.
>
> A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.
>
> Phil
>
>

I'm sure it could be done, at least if you did all your air work on top
VFR. But it would be so impractical, I doubt anyone would do it.

John Roncallo

[Bob Gardner]

Read 61.47(b). You can try to talk the DE into being PIC...good luck.

Bob Gardner

"Phil McAverty" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
> Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than others
> and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the checkride
> then its done in IMC.
>
> I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC would
be
> my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a
hood
> and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also give
> the examiner something more to concentrate on too.
>
> A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.
>
> Phil
>
>

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" > said:

> Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.

Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general,
it's probably not going to happen.

A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners
are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against
that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get.
She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Phil McAverty]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003120623064950073%lfransson@comcastnet...
> On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" > said:
>
> > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
> Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general,
> it's probably not going to happen.
>
> A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners
> are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against
> that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get.
> She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that.

That seems to be the best reason of all for doing checkrides in IMC. Seems
to be a dumb policy to do a checkride in VMC and then letting them go off
into IMC.

I have a UK IMC rating which involves 15 hours of Instrument training. I
hardly use it except to do a bit of VMC on top.

The best thing I ever got out of the training was that

a) 15 hours training showed me how little ability I really had and how
deadly the IMC environment was,

b) There is a world of difference between passing the checkride and using
the rating.

I fly for fun not to scare the s**t out of myself so flying in IMC falls
into the "not fun" end of the spectrum.

IMC in uncontrolled airspace is another drawback and with class A airspace
here beginning at surface level in some places (EGLL) and other class A at
FL35 it is hard to fly on top. Admitted in UK there is no land higher than
4000 feet but we are all compressed into a narrow band, not much bigger than
Florida.


I could get to enjoy IMC flying but I would need to be doing it most of the
time; and to do that means being paid to do it. But then when there are
schedules to keep etc I suppose it become like many jobs, a bit of a grind.

The irony is that a FAA/IR will qualify for a UK IMC rating with only
limited privileges in controlled airspace (class D only). The FAA/IR pilot
can file IFR and fly in class A in the UK if the aircraft is US registered
but not if the aircraft is UK registered.

It was only until recently that ua US IR pilot had to do 55 hours training
to convert to a UK IR

[Lynn Melrose]

Phil McAverty wrote:

> That seems to be the best reason of all for doing checkrides in IMC. Seems
> to be a dumb policy to do a checkride in VMC and then letting them go off
> into IMC.

In the USA, there are many places that rarely if ever ever see IMC. Such a
policy would prohibit check rides there.

> The irony is that a FAA/IR will qualify for a UK IMC rating with only
> limited privileges in controlled airspace (class D only). The FAA/IR pilot
> can file IFR and fly in class A in the UK if the aircraft is US registered
> but not if the aircraft is UK registered.

Where is Class A airspace used in the UK? In the US, it is only 18,000+ ft MSL,
but I understand that it is used differently in other jurisdictions.

[Lynn Melrose]

Larry Fransson wrote:

> On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" > said:
>
> > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
> Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general,
> it's probably not going to happen.
>
> A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners
> are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against
> that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get.
> She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that.

Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't appear to
be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it.

[Lynn Melrose]

Lynn Melrose wrote:

> Where is Class A airspace used in the UK? In the US, it is only 18,000+ ft MSL,
> but I understand that it is used differently in other jurisdictions.

Let me rephrase that, it is only 18,000ft - FL600 over most of the US. There are
exceptions.

[Richard Hertz]

What difference will dual attitude indicators make?


"Lynn Melrose" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Larry Fransson wrote:
>
> > On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" >
said:
> >
> > > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
> >
> > Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general,
> > it's probably not going to happen.
> >
> > A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners
> > are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went
against
> > that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get.
> > She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that.
>
> Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't
appear to
> be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it.
>

[Lynn Melrose]

Richard Hertz wrote:

> What difference will dual attitude indicators make?
>
> "Lynn Melrose" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Larry Fransson wrote:
> >
> > > On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" >
> said:
> > >
> > > > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
> > >
> > > Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general,
> > > it's probably not going to happen.
> > >
> > > A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners
> > > are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went
> against
> > > that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get.
> > > She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that.
> >
> > Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't
> appear to
> > be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it.
> >

For simulated instrument failures.

[Richard Hertz]

Why do you need two? You can simulate the failure with just one.
Presumably the candidate AND the DE know how to fly with no AI.

My instructor was a DE for a while - he would try to do practical in actual.
If ATC said something about a deviation the candidate failed. Typically
though most of the folks taking a checkride with him never got past the
oral.


"Lynn Melrose" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Richard Hertz wrote:
>
> > What difference will dual attitude indicators make?
> >
> > "Lynn Melrose" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Larry Fransson wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" >
> > said:
> > > >
> > > > > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real
IMC.
> > > >
> > > > Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in
general,
> > > > it's probably not going to happen.
> > > >
> > > > A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners
> > > > are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went
> > against
> > > > that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could
get.
> > > > She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that.
> > >
> > > Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't
> > appear to
> > > be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it.
> > >
>
> For simulated instrument failures.
>

[Phil McAverty]

"Lynn Melrose" > wrote in message
...
> Phil McAverty wrote:
>
> > That seems to be the best reason of all for doing checkrides in IMC.
Seems
> > to be a dumb policy to do a checkride in VMC and then letting them go
off
> > into IMC.
>
> In the USA, there are many places that rarely if ever ever see IMC. Such
a
> policy would prohibit check rides there.
>
> > The irony is that a FAA/IR will qualify for a UK IMC rating with only
> > limited privileges in controlled airspace (class D only). The FAA/IR
pilot
> > can file IFR and fly in class A in the UK if the aircraft is US
registered
> > but not if the aircraft is UK registered.
>
> Where is Class A airspace used in the UK? In the US, it is only 18,000+
ft MSL,
> but I understand that it is used differently in other jurisdictions.

Class A is used like they use Class B from the surface around major airports
like London Heathrow & Gatwick, Manchester, reaching up and out into the
airways. You can encounter Class A airways at FL55.

Mind you there are pockets of class G going up to 24500ft

[CriticalMass]

"Jeffrey Voight" > wrote in message
...
> That would be the state of nirvana.
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Not to worry, Jeff. It's a goofy question.

[David Brooks]

"Phil McAverty" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.

Mine was.

To address some of the other points made in this thread:

1) We found some VMC to do the maneuvers. IMC can be patchy, after all. We
canceled IFR at the end of the last approach and switched to Special VFR to
get to the clearer air (which was 600ft lower in elevation than the
airfield. The alternative was a discontinuance; I would have been fine with
that because I could have done the maneuvers later while fresh.

2) It would have been nice to be able to lift the Jeppshades while we were
in the clouds, but unfortunately I had snapped the hinge just before getting
on the runway and they wouldn't stay up! For many people, flying in and out
of clouds is more of a workload than staying simulated anyway.

3) The argument that the candidate can't be PIC because it's IMC is a
curious one. You can't be PIC for IFR in VMC either. Do most people really
do the approaches and holds under VFR? How does the examiner test your
ability to handle ATC; you aren't guaranteed service if you ask for VFR
handling.

> A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.

Well, it was, but the deck was stacked in enough other ways (faulty
Jeppshades, weird windshifts, and the VOR was OTS for example) that it was a
case of "if I can survive that, I can survive most IMC".

-- David Brooks

[S Narayan]

"David Reinhart" > wrote in message
...
> No, they have to be done in VFR.

Not necessarily true. Mine was done part in IMC part over the cloud deck
(unusual attitudes etc). I think we cancelled IFR once over the top. This
was in the SF Bay area (the checkride took part for the most part over the
central valley which was fog bound).

My VOR approach was in total IMC with a true missed.

>
> There's several reasons for this. One of them is that some of the tasks
> required (like unsual attitudes) would require a block altitude clearance
and
> clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. Obviously in busy terminal
> airspace that could be difficult to do.
>
> On the legal side, the FAA requires the inspector or DE to make it clear
to the
> applicant that he or she is the pilot in command, not the person giving
the
> checkride. That being the case, since the applicant is not instrument
rated he
> or she can not act as PIC of an aircraft operating under IFR.
>
> Dave Reinhart
>
>
> Phil McAverty wrote:
>
> > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
> >
> > Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than
others
> > and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the
checkride
> > then its done in IMC.
> >
> > I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC
would be
> > my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a
hood
> > and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also
give
> > the examiner something more to concentrate on too.
> >
> > A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.
> >
> > Phil
>

[David Reinhart]

To address 3).

Most of the approaches and holds I've done for my IFR ticket have been done
under VFR. I'll call up approach control, request an approach, get vectors,
etc., and they will issue clearances with the restriction to "maintain VFR".
Under VFR I always get an "alternate" missed approach procedure. I don't know
about other areas, but around here you have to request and get approval to fly
the published missed approach procedure under VFR.

During a practical test, I don't think you actually have to contact ATC at all.
The examiner can give you a "simulated" clearance, for example. Your ability to
handle ATC is documented by your long cross-country which must be flown under
IFR and your instructor's sign-off that you're ready to take the test.

In many situations, of course, you'll have to deal with ATC for approaches even
in VFR, but out here it is possible to fly ILS/LOC (KEEN), VOR (KEEN, KORE,
KGDM), and NDB (KFIT, KORE) approaches under VFR at uncontrolled airports and
never have to say a word to ATC. Without vectors you'd have to fly the full
approach, but what the heck.

As others have pointed out, in some parts of the country (Florida and the
Southwest) it's actually very difficult to fly actual IFR. The High Desert of
California where I grew up has VFR weather 350+ days a year. It's completely
possible for a pilot to go through an entire IFR course and never fly in actual
IMC.

I don't know about you, but I was always told, when filing IFR during training,
to use the my instructor's name as PIC. Just like your first solo, you're
"flying on his ticket" and any screwups you make come back to haunt him. During
the check, the DE isn't going tell you (on purpose anyway) to do anything
illegal, but neither does he have to be willing to put his ticket on the block.
I don't even know that it's necessary for a DE to be a current CFII.

Dave Reinhart


David Brooks wrote:

> "Phil McAverty" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC.
>
> Mine was.
>
> To address some of the other points made in this thread:
>
> 1) We found some VMC to do the maneuvers. IMC can be patchy, after all. We
> canceled IFR at the end of the last approach and switched to Special VFR to
> get to the clearer air (which was 600ft lower in elevation than the
> airfield. The alternative was a discontinuance; I would have been fine with
> that because I could have done the maneuvers later while fresh.
>
> 2) It would have been nice to be able to lift the Jeppshades while we were
> in the clouds, but unfortunately I had snapped the hinge just before getting
> on the runway and they wouldn't stay up! For many people, flying in and out
> of clouds is more of a workload than staying simulated anyway.
>
> 3) The argument that the candidate can't be PIC because it's IMC is a
> curious one. You can't be PIC for IFR in VMC either. Do most people really
> do the approaches and holds under VFR? How does the examiner test your
> ability to handle ATC; you aren't guaranteed service if you ask for VFR
> handling.
>
> > A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster.
>
> Well, it was, but the deck was stacked in enough other ways (faulty
> Jeppshades, weird windshifts, and the VOR was OTS for example) that it was a
> case of "if I can survive that, I can survive most IMC".
>
> -- David Brooks