Do you flight plan?

[Nasir]

Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?

Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
aloft and fly the appropriate heading?

I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
easier! :)

How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?

Nasir

[Casey Wilson]

"Nasir" > wrote in message
. com...
> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel
to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that
you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate
winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination
(plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting
lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?

For any cross country longer than abut 75 miles, I do a lot of planning.
But then us old geezers tend to be less bold as the years go by.

[Margy Natalie]

Even my flight instructor told me I would never plan flights the way I did as a
student. We've gone out with nary more than a weather briefing for the general
area we think we are going to, but that's more boring holes in the sky rather
than flying somewhere specific. The GPS makes it very easy to get very lazy so
always make sure you know where you are on the chart also in case you lose the
GPS. If you have an intended landing point you should check the notams enroute
and for the airport you are going to. After you start taking long cross
countries you find out that you often end up at some other airport anyway due to
weather, bathrooms, hunger, etc. I never planned fuel out to the last ounce
because I know in the old clunkers I fly they aren't anywhere near the book. I
told the DE that during the oral and she just smiled and said "besides we both
know private pilots don't know how to lean". I think I passed the ride right
then. In my plane we can burn anywhere from 10 to 14 depending on how we fly
it. I always plan 14, plus and hour reserve. I keep the baggage tank full as
ballast unless I have lots of luggage. I always have at least 20 gals when I
land.

Margy

Nasir wrote:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Nasir" > wrote:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?

There's really only two important questions for the vast majority of
flights most private pilots take:

1) Am I going to run into any weather I can't handle?

2) Am I going to have enough fuel to get there? Corellary: can I buy
fuel there, or do I need to plan on enough to get back too?

There are other things to answer, but those are the big ones. Everything
else you do is to make sure you can answer those two questions.

I certainly see no reason to slog over computing wind correction angles
and groundspeed for each individual leg by hand. Let a computer crunch
the numbers for you. I use the feee planner available on DUATs, but
there's lots of alternatives to pick from.

You certainly want to look at a chart and make sure your proposed route
makes sense. Most flight planners are perfectly happy to tell you, to
the minute and the 1/10th of a gallon, what it takes to fly direct from
Atlantic City to Block Island, but a quick glance at a sectional will
make it obvious you're proposing a flight over open ocean. Likewise,
you want to know about stuff like mountain ranges, airspace, etc.

I'm a big fan of visual flying. Sure, VOR or GPS will get you where you
want to go, but I think picking out landmarks on a chart and finding
them from the air is a big part of the fun of flying.

[Teacherjh]

For most VFR flights of significant length I plan carefully, especially since I
like to fly very low. I draw the lines on the sectionals, checking for special
use airspace, obstacles such as towers, landmarks, frequencies of interest
(ATIS and CTAF of nearby airports and navaids). I plan waypoints and calculate
time and distance, course and heading, and make note on my form of the maximum
obstacle altitudes along my route or quadrant as appropriate. I also put my
destiation frequences, runway designations, and altitudes and TPA up at the
top. In flight, having all this info readily available is very convenient and
helps keep track of where I am.

I don't pay much attention to the GPS... at least I try not to. Lean on it too
much and one day you'll realize you've become a passenger rather than a pilot.

I use pilotage as my primary navigation when VFR.

IFR I plan the route based on Victor airways, and then throw it all out upon
getting my clearance. I throw the clearance out when I get reroutes in flight.
However the planning does help me cope with reroutes because it helps me find
the new routing on the chart.

I am capable of just picking up and going, but I prefer to have the flight
planned ahead of time.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Nasir" > said:
>Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
>wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?

I was flying IFR from Rochester NY to Goderich today. First thing I did,
a few days ago I plugged the route into AeroPlanner and did the auto route
thing. Duh, turns out it's a pretty damn simple route, I probably should
have just looked at the enroute chart. I plugged the route into CoPilot
in my Palm, and into my GPS, and hilighted it on both the US and Canadian
enroute charts.

This morning, checked the weather - it was going to be VFR the whole way,
but I decided to stick with IFR just to simplify the cross border
operation. Plugged the winds aloft into CoPilot, and also used it to
check the weight and balance (two people and 30 pounds of gear is NOT
enough to put the Lance anywhere near overweight, by the way). It was
going to be about a hour and a half flight. I figured it was going to
take half an hour to prepare the plane, and we needed 2 hours notice for
customs, so I called CANPASS, only to be told that Goderich wasn't an
airport of entry on the weekends - I guess I should have checked the AF/D
more carefully, since I thought on off hours you could still get customs
via call-out like you can at US airports of entry. Ok, no problem. Did a
CANPASS report for London. Filed IFR to London. Didn't bother to update
either the GPS, and just put London into CoPilot as a ground stop.

Had a little problem with the GPS not agreeing with the VOR and I followed
the VOR. Turns out that the radios in the planes are labelled wrong, so I
thought I'd tuned ROC for the outbound, but was following the OBS for the
radio tuned to GEE. Funnily enough, I thought I'd identified the VOR - I
guess I hadn't looked carefully enough at the audio panel when I'd pushed
the button and heard Rochester's ident.

Took off, flew the plan, and did it. The ETEs weren't going right - we
were getting tons more headwind than forecast, and we were going to be
half an hour late for customs. But hey, this is Canadian customs, not US,
so we weren't anticipating any problems. And we didn't get any.

We didn't go on to Goderich because of a little matter of the plane not
producing power on take off from London, requiring an emergency landing
back at London.

Oh well, that's flying for you.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Diplomacy is the ability to let someone else have your way.

[EDR]

In article >, Nasir
> wrote:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?

> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg?

> Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things?

> Do you always calculate winds aloft and fly the appropriate heading?

> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?

I am a renter pilot, so the first item on the list is to determine
aircraft availablity and schedule as soon as a trip is conceived. For
example, two weeks ago, I scheduled my aircraft of choice for the week
of Airventure/Oshkosh 2004.

If I am taking a long cross country, I begin the actual route planning
a week or two before the planned departure date. This allows me to
speak directly to FBO's and make any necessary arrangements and
reservations. Better to schedule heated hangar reservations in advance
than at the last minute. If there are special events scheduled for your
destination airport you can reserve tiedown/hangar space early.
For renter pilots, this is also a good time to check that there is no
maintenance scheduled prior to your departure that will affect the date
and time. If you need to schedule another aircraft, do so as soon as
practicle.

Route planning is a matter of looking at the Sectional/WAC/Planning
Chart(s) and determining a route based on aircraft, passengers, weather
and terrain.
Once the route is determined, it is time for DUATs/DUAT to crunch the
numbers. For initial planning, select the no-wind option and plug in
the route. Once you have total trip length and time, you break the trip
into leg times of your comfort level. This is the first pass to
derermine an area for intermediate stops. With the intermediate area
determined, you can fine tune to the exact airport based on your needs.

I start looking at weather prog charts five days prior to departure and
check them each day to observe how the forecasts change.
Three day prior to departure, forecast winds are available and
DUATs/DUAT is used to determine preliminary leg times, fuel
consumption, and if necessary, route changes.

Twenty four hours prior to departure, unless there is something really
funky going on with the weather, weather, route, time/fuel/distance is
firmed up. Also, last minute NOTAMS generally become available.

Eight to ten hours prior to deparature, a weather check is done to
ascertain that the weather is holding and NOTAMs are verified.

One hour prior to departure, a call to FSS is made for last minute
verification and NOTAM checks.

[Bob Gardner]

You are taught pilotage as a shield against the day when you computer flight
planning software crashes. You do need something to fall back on.

Bob Gardner

"Nasir" > wrote in message
. com...
> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel
to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that
you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate
winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination
(plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting
lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> For most VFR flights of significant length I plan carefully, especially
since I
> like to fly very low.

This is an interesting statement that begs for an explanation. Why do you
like to fly "very low"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roy Smith]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> We didn't go on to Goderich because of a little matter of the plane not
> producing power on take off from London, requiring an emergency landing
> back at London.
>
> Oh well, that's flying for you.

Along those lines, I think the most important thing to take on any trip
in a small plane is a fully-charged credit card. It can buy you fuel,
emergency repairs, dinner (or a hotel room) while you wait out weather,
a rental car, or an airline ticket.

I can't think of anything else which packs so much aviation safety into
such a small package :-)

[Jay Honeck]

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
trip?

Last spring we flew from Iowa to Florida, with a stop in Alabama, with less
formal flight planning then when I prepared for my first few 50-mile student
cross country flights.

We subscribe to Aeroplanner, an on-line flight planning service, and create
Sectional Chart "Trip Tiks" in .pdf format upon request, printing them on my
color laser printer at work. This pretty much wraps up our "flight
planning" in the traditional sense, except for programming everything into
our AvMap GPS. Aeroplanner literally does everything for you, including
drawing the line on the charts, right down to the 10 nm "ticks"... (It also
creates sectionals on 8.5 x 11 inch sheets, in flip-chart form, so you don't
have the "octopus arms" of charts in the cockpit.)

That said, it's the weather prep that really matters on a long cross country
flight -- and, if anything, this has gotten MORE extensive over the years.
For several days before a flight, we'll study the weather patterns on The
Weather Channel. I'll get a really thorough outlook briefing the night
before a flight, and then a standard weather briefing the morning of the
flight.

I'll virtually live on ADDS and a host of other weather websites, tracking
the METARS and TAFS along our route of flight. I'll try to be aware of
trends and anomalies in the weather pattern. If they're predicting crap
weather the day before a flight, and it's sunny, I'll be very aware that the
NWS has no clue what's happening.

Finally, for vacations we always plan at least three flights. If the
weather is socked in to the North, we'll choose our "Southern Option". If
it looks bad that way, too, we'll choose our Western Option. We always
leave our options open, and we always leave at least one "contingency day"
in our flight plans.

This procedure has worked well for almost ten years, and almost 900 hours.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Nasir" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel
to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that
you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate
winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination
(plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting
lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir
>
>

[tony roberts]

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? . . . .

As a student I spent more time flight planning than making the actual
flight. I had extra ground school to find out what I was doing wrong
but I never did get a flight that was faster than the flight plan.
If I had been unable to escape that ridiculous situation I would
probably have quit flying.

Here is what I do now - I am not suggesting that other people do it -
and I am specifically recommending that students don't do this - do what
you are taught by your CFI.

I burn 6 - 6.5 gallons per hour so I estimate 8. Full fuel (which I
ALWAYS fly on trips) gives me three hours flight time with a 90 minute
reserve plus the extra time that I have in reserve by using 8 gall per
hour for my calculations. That is all that I want to know about fuel.

I plot a course on my chart, determine minimum altitude, mark the course
off into 10 nm sections and highlight all checkpoints and airports en
route - I'm lucky that in the area that I fly in I am always within 30 -
45 minutes of an airport.
I check winds and estimate a speed which gives me a time en route.

I carry 2 GPS units with lots of spare batteries, and I have VOR, ADF
and DME.
I use all of them. My flight plan data is on permanent file with my FSS,
so I don't need to go over speed, colour of aircraft, survival gear etc.
etc. I just say this is me and I'm going here - direct (or I file Victor
Airways - they are so easy) - and I'll take 2 hours, and I have 2 pax &
4 hours fuel. Finished!
I fly using all of my navigation aids and as I have memorized the
landmarks I don't follow my route on the chart minute by minute - I have
it on the seat next to me and each time that I pass a landmark I mark
it off and look how long to the next one. So if I'm expecting the arrow
lakes in 15 minutes and they don't appear I start investigating - but
with all of the nav gear that I use that isn't usually an issue - it's
just some extra insurance.

Also of course, don't undervalue flight following as a regular tool, and
DF Steer if you do get lost. Far better to say I'm lost than to fly
around in circles. If you do get lost, and assuming that the cloud
ceiling allows it - climb. Your radios and VOR/ADF will have a longer
range, and of course you will have a longer glide range, and landmarks
that you couldn't see suddenly become visible when you climb.

HTH

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[tony roberts]

All of that, of course, is after having checked that the weather is
suitable for the flight!

In article <nospam-A30467.19380407122003@shawnews>,
tony roberts > wrote:

> As a student I spent more time flight planning than making the actual
> flight. I had extra ground school to find out what I was doing wrong
> but I never did get a flight that was faster than the flight plan.
> If I had been unable to escape that ridiculous situation I would
> probably have quit flying.
>
> Here is what I do now - I am not suggesting that other people do it -
> and I am specifically recommending that students don't do this - do what
> you are taught by your CFI.
>
> I burn 6 - 6.5 gallons per hour so I estimate 8. Full fuel (which I
> ALWAYS fly on trips) gives me three hours flight time with a 90 minute
> reserve plus the extra time that I have in reserve by using 8 gall per
> hour for my calculations. That is all that I want to know about fuel.
>
> I plot a course on my chart, determine minimum altitude, mark the course
> off into 10 nm sections and highlight all checkpoints and airports en
> route - I'm lucky that in the area that I fly in I am always within 30 -
> 45 minutes of an airport.
> I check winds and estimate a speed which gives me a time en route.
>
> I carry 2 GPS units with lots of spare batteries, and I have VOR, ADF
> and DME.
> I use all of them. My flight plan data is on permanent file with my FSS,
> so I don't need to go over speed, colour of aircraft, survival gear etc.
> etc. I just say this is me and I'm going here - direct (or I file Victor
> Airways - they are so easy) - and I'll take 2 hours, and I have 2 pax &
> 4 hours fuel. Finished!
> I fly using all of my navigation aids and as I have memorized the
> landmarks I don't follow my route on the chart minute by minute - I have
> it on the seat next to me and each time that I pass a landmark I mark
> it off and look how long to the next one. So if I'm expecting the arrow
> lakes in 15 minutes and they don't appear I start investigating - but
> with all of the nav gear that I use that isn't usually an issue - it's
> just some extra insurance.
>
> Also of course, don't undervalue flight following as a regular tool, and
> DF Steer if you do get lost. Far better to say I'm lost than to fly
> around in circles. If you do get lost, and assuming that the cloud
> ceiling allows it - climb. Your radios and VOR/ADF will have a longer
> range, and of course you will have a longer glide range, and landmarks
> that you couldn't see suddenly become visible when you climb.
>
> HTH




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[tony roberts]

In article <vQRAb.459661$Tr4.1277818@attbi_s03>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > For most VFR flights of significant length I plan carefully, especially
> since I
> > like to fly very low.
>
> This is an interesting statement that begs for an explanation. Why do you
> like to fly "very low"?


I was about to ask the same question.
Scared of heights? :)
A burning desire to knock those branches out of the landing gear? :)

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Teacherjh]

>> Why do you like to fly "very low"?

It's pretty.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Nasir" > wrote:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir
>
>

After 44 years of VFR flying, I DO flight plan -- sometimes. I usually
try to set down for fuel about every 2-1/2 hours (my wife gets a bladder
overpressure warning light). I flight plan for 145 Kt (conservative) and
consult my planning chart and the appropriate WAC charts.

One item I haven't seen posted is the use of Airnav.com for fuel prices.
I have seen prices for 100LL from <$2.00/gal to >$3.50/gal within a 50
NM radius of proposed fuel stops. This is an important tool for flight
planning. Last summer, on our trip to Oshkosh, we encountered one closed
airport (runway sweepers) and quickly found a suitable alternate with
good fuel prices.

I download the information on intended fuel stops (and the area fuel
prices and put them into a 3-ring binder, along with any TFR info and
DUATS info, so I ahve an organized reference handy and do not have to
shuffle through a bunch of papers.

I also check the Weather Channel for trends and conditions.

I draw the lines on my charts with highlighters and an ready to go.

[Jeff]

I dont flight plan using way points, checkpoints or anything else.
I have a IFR certified GPS and I have a shaden fuel flow monitor in my plane. I
know I can carry enough fuel for 6 hours, I like at least a 90 minute reserve,
so I Like to plan a stop about every 600-650 miles on long X-C's. I try to never
go over 700 miles without stopping. So what I do is depending on the distance,
if I need to stop for fuel, I just plot out about 600-650 miles, see what
airport is there, then add or take away distance depending on my options. I like
airports that are towered and have cross runways for long X-C's. for short XC's
like 200-300 miles, I just fly straight there, but weahter is something I always
check starting a week out if its a planned flight.

Jeff

Nasir wrote:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir

[Jeff]

fuel prices is something I dont check. I plan my stops based on the size of the
airport and what is available there. I like towered airports, ones with
restaurants, and if staying, they have to have rental cars on the field. I wont
use an airport that wont have my car waiting on me when I get there. I go through
the FBO's for my car but make hotel reservations myself.
Flew into carlsbad, ca. the other day, their gas was 3.60 a gallon...expensive,
but they had good service, western flight was the place. had my rental car parked
behind my plane before I had the engine shut off. I would use them anytime I go
to that airport.

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

> After 44 years of VFR flying, I DO flight plan -- sometimes. I usually
> try to set down for fuel about every 2-1/2 hours (my wife gets a bladder
> overpressure warning light). I flight plan for 145 Kt (conservative) and
> consult my planning chart and the appropriate WAC charts.
>
> One item I haven't seen posted is the use of Airnav.com for fuel prices.
> I have seen prices for 100LL from <$2.00/gal to >$3.50/gal within a 50
> NM radius of proposed fuel stops. This is an important tool for flight
> planning. Last summer, on our trip to Oshkosh, we encountered one closed
> airport (runway sweepers) and quickly found a suitable alternate with
> good fuel prices.
>
> I download the information on intended fuel stops (and the area fuel
> prices and put them into a 3-ring binder, along with any TFR info and
> DUATS info, so I ahve an organized reference handy and do not have to
> shuffle through a bunch of papers.
>
> I also check the Weather Channel for trends and conditions.
>
> I draw the lines on my charts with highlighters and an ready to go.

[Teacherjh]

>> One item I haven't seen posted is the use of Airnav.com for fuel prices.

I do it all the time. It's the best!

Renter pilots probably have much less incentive.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Cub Driver]

I don't go awfully far from home, but the countryside can be fairly
daunting in northern New England (no fields to land in!). So unless
I'm running up to Lake Winnipesaukee and back, I'll generally draw a
pencil line on the chart (usually not the current one). I have GPS
coordinates for most of my turning points. I'll paste them into DUATS
and get one of their useless printouts of the route. That gives me the
distances, from which I have a pretty good idea of the time from point
to point, and also the fuel consumption. (I can fly for two hours. I
figure 4 gallons an hour, plus half a gallon for each takeoff. This I
have found far more reliable than computer work or DUATS
calculations.)

I call Flight Service before taking off, to check on TFRs and military
activity (I often fly through Yankee One and Yankee Two MOAs). I
rarely file a flight plan.

I have the folded chart on a kneeboard (thighboard?). I follow my
progress with my thumb while eyeballing the countryside. But what I am
really doing is tracking the GPS, which has the waypoints plugged into
it. I have flown all possible routes in say a 200-degree arc (the
other 160 degrees being the Gulf of Maine) so I am familiar with the
landmarks and can easily find my way home if the chart blows away and
the GPS loses its signal. I fly at 2900 feet so an undercast is almost
never a problem; the one time it happened, I did a 180 and flew back
to the coast.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>This is an interesting statement that begs for an explanation. Why do you
>like to fly "very low"?

Gosh, doesn't everyone?

My primary reason for flying at 2900 feet AGL (if you consider that
low--I do!) is that it frees me from having to think about airways
while getting me above the controlled airspace near my home.

I almost never go higher, and I am so accustomed to this altitude that
I feel a bit uncomfortable flying lower, though I will do so if
there's a strong headwind. There aren't many pastures where I fly, and
I like the extra gliding distance.

The view is great from 2900 feet. If the poster means that he likes to
smell the newmown hay--well, that's another matter.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Frederick Wilson]

2900 Feet AGL is Low???? Just kidding. Army helicopters, if anything other
than the rotors are above the trees, your too high. But when I fly PP-ASEL
anywhere, I get up there. There is nothing like altitude.

What is that saying? Two things that are useless, Fuel on the ground and air
above you?

Fred


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >This is an interesting statement that begs for an explanation. Why do
you
> >like to fly "very low"?
>
> Gosh, doesn't everyone?
>
> My primary reason for flying at 2900 feet AGL (if you consider that
> low--I do!) is that it frees me from having to think about airways
> while getting me above the controlled airspace near my home.
>
> I almost never go higher, and I am so accustomed to this altitude that
> I feel a bit uncomfortable flying lower, though I will do so if
> there's a strong headwind. There aren't many pastures where I fly, and
> I like the extra gliding distance.
>
> The view is great from 2900 feet. If the poster means that he likes to
> smell the newmown hay--well, that's another matter.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[John Smith]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:DmRAb.53585$_M.258452@attbi_s54...
> You are taught pilotage as a shield against the day when you computer
flight
> planning software crashes. You do need something to fall back on.
>
> Bob Gardner

Correct, of course, but if you're not using pilotage, it'll be too rusty to
use when you need it. Something you perhaps should schedule in a few times a
year (a pilotage-only route)?

[EDR]

> > For most VFR flights of significant length I plan carefully, especially
> > since I like to fly very low.

> This is an interesting statement that begs for an explanation. Why do you
> like to fly "very low"?

If you fly antiques the likes of Cubs and Champs, there is no need to
fly high. 300 to 500 AGL will get you anywhere you want to go.
With a max cruise speed of 75-80 MILES per hour, obstruction avoidance
takes a long time. Something a mile ahead of you will give you 40-50
seconds to maneuver around.
You can pull back the power and yell at people on the ground.
Any patch of ground without trees or wires is a potential landing area.
Long drivways, country lanes and fields, big yards, beaches, etc.
Not only can you land, you can takeoff.
I have flown Columbus OH to Oshkosh WI and never gone above 500 AGL.
When I flew Columbus to Lakeland FL for Sun N Fun this year, the only
time I climbed above 1000 AGL was to cross a few mountains and swamps.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:31:34 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote in
Message-Id: >:

>You certainly want to look at a chart and make sure your proposed route
>makes sense.

I have one cardinal rule regarding XC flights: Don't get in the
airplane without a course line drawn on the chart. The rest varies...

[Trent Moorehead]

"Nasir" > wrote in message
. com...
> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
trip?

Nasir,

I am a relatively low-time pilot and just made a small cross country just
yesterday. My experience has been that I still do some flight planning
manually, but I let my computer do the number crunching.

My flight planning consisted of looking on my sectional for a destination,
drawing a line, making note of landmarks for checkpoints, measuring the
distance and True Heading and estimating time en route with my E-6B. This
took all of 10 minutes (It would have been shorter, but the Sunday morning
news was on and I would plan during the commercial breaks).

Then, I went to my computer, started up the AOPA's free flight planner,
typed in my departure and arrival points and voila, my flight was planned.
All the wind correction, magnetic variation, fuel calcs and times are
computed almost instantly (for both forth and hence), saving me many minutes
of planning.

Here's the important step: I checked over the Navigation log to make sure
that it somewhat matched my crude manual numbers. This way, if I made a
mistake somewhere, it would be a red flag telling me to look over my plan
again. I then went to AOPA's AFD and printed out my destination's info and
diagram.

I let the computer's flight planner do the wind correction angle, fuel
calculations, fuel at each leg, time en route etc. Manually, doing these
calculations is the most time consuming part of flight planning.

I usually fly totally by pilotage since I don't have a GPS. I rarely even
use the VOR, since most of my flights are over the country to small
airports. Some day, I'll get a GPS though, because I think it would be a
great insurance policy against that sinking feeling that you've just passed
your destination airport and you've got to turn around (or do you?).

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Roy Smith]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote:
> Here's the important step: I checked over the Navigation log to make sure
> that it somewhat matched my crude manual numbers.

Excellent idea. The problem with computers is not that they make
errors, but that they don't notice or care if you feed them bad data.
Garbage in, garbage out. Type in the name of a GPS waypoint wrong and
the computer is perfectly happy to send you to Nebraska instead of New
Jersey.

I once sat in the cockpit of an airline flight during the pre-flight
preparations for a flight to Bermuda. Between the plane's computers and
the airline's dispatch department, the flight was planned about as
carefully and accurately as possible. But the pilot still pulled out a
chart and a plotter (looked just like the one you got in your student
pilot kit, except that it had the airline's name printed on it and
looked like it had accumulated a lifetime's worth of dings and
scratches), drew some lines, and went over it leg by leg verifying that
the headings and distances the computer spat out looked reasonable.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Well, a cross country is just a series of one hour flights strung end to
end... To go for a one hour flight I simply check the weather and notams,
and if there are no show stoppers we get into the plane and launch in the
general direction of where we want to be... To go from one end of the
country to the other, I do exactly the same -> wx / notams / fuel / go...
Fuel stops are usually not preplanned, about two and a half hours out I
start looking ahead an hour for the fuel stop... I try to go to a different
airport for fuel on every trip even if it is the twentieth time I've flown
the route.. I do avoid the jet ports simply because they have high fuel
prices, though...

The Howie Keith Charts are the easiest I've found and I have used them off
and on for decades... The GPS195 keeps me from blundering into controlled /
restricted airspace, and the airport database makes it easy to look an hour
ahead for an airport with fuel.. Out west where the airports are further
apart I do a smidgen more preplanning on the fuel stop, but that's all...

So, my flight planning is the absolute minimum possible in todays
airspace... The reality over most of the country is that you are within ten
minutes of an airport... Relax and look at this beautiful country instead of
sweating over check points and being exactly on time with your flight
plan...

Denny


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:r4SAb.459877$Tr4.1276545@attbi_s03...
> > Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I
was
> > wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
> trip?
>
> Last spring we flew from Iowa to Florida, with a stop in Alabama, with
less
> formal flight planning then when I prepared for my first few 50-mile
student
> cross country flights.
>
> We subscribe to Aeroplanner, an on-line flight planning service, and
create
> Sectional Chart "Trip Tiks" in .pdf format upon request, printing them on
my
> color laser printer at work. This pretty much wraps up our "flight
> planning" in the traditional sense, except for programming everything into
> our AvMap GPS. Aeroplanner literally does everything for you, including
> drawing the line on the charts, right down to the 10 nm "ticks"... (It
also
> creates sectionals on 8.5 x 11 inch sheets, in flip-chart form, so you
don't
> have the "octopus arms" of charts in the cockpit.)
>
> That said, it's the weather prep that really matters on a long cross
country
> flight -- and, if anything, this has gotten MORE extensive over the years.
> For several days before a flight, we'll study the weather patterns on The
> Weather Channel. I'll get a really thorough outlook briefing the night
> before a flight, and then a standard weather briefing the morning of the
> flight.
>
> I'll virtually live on ADDS and a host of other weather websites, tracking
> the METARS and TAFS along our route of flight. I'll try to be aware of
> trends and anomalies in the weather pattern. If they're predicting crap
> weather the day before a flight, and it's sunny, I'll be very aware that
the
> NWS has no clue what's happening.
>
> Finally, for vacations we always plan at least three flights. If the
> weather is socked in to the North, we'll choose our "Southern Option". If
> it looks bad that way, too, we'll choose our Western Option. We always
> leave our options open, and we always leave at least one "contingency day"
> in our flight plans.
>
> This procedure has worked well for almost ten years, and almost 900 hours.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
> "Nasir" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate
time/distance/fuel
> to
> > each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that
> you
> > expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate
> winds
> > aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
> >
> > I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
> planning
> > x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> > checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination
> (plus
> > an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> > time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting
> lazy
> > easier! :)
> >
> > How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
> >
> > Nasir
> >
> >
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> My primary reason for flying at 2900 feet AGL (if you consider that
> low--I do!) is that it frees me from having to think about airways

I was presuming he meant lower than 2900 AGL.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Cub Driver > said:
>My primary reason for flying at 2900 feet AGL (if you consider that
>low--I do!) is that it frees me from having to think about airways
>while getting me above the controlled airspace near my home.

The problem with flight below 3,000 AGL is you keep encountering other
aircraft. Every time I'm down there, I feel like I'm a World War II
fighter pilot over Germany, because there's always somebody whizzing past
in one direction or another, and if I stop scanning the skies for even a
second in order to sight see, I'm going to get killed.

I like to cruise between 6,000 and 10,000 - there's NOBODY up there. I
flew for five hours yesterday, and the only traffic pointed out by ATC was
down in the weeds, and I saw a few Dash-8s climbing or descending through
my altitude, but otherwise it was pure bliss with the world stretching out
as far as the eye could see in all directions.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
It's fun to mock old people. They're going to die soon anyway.
-- Mike Sphar

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Jeff > said:
>airport and what is available there. I like towered airports, ones with
>restaurants, and if staying, they have to have rental cars on the field. I wont
>use an airport that wont have my car waiting on me when I get there. I

If I'm going somewhere specific that is a sleeply little airport with no
services except the airport dog, I've always got an alternate that will
offer an ILS to a long runway - and that's usually the towered airport
with the rental cars and food and lodging near by. Even if the weather
isn't bad, it's nice to know where you could go for plan B.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
About Windows XP, seen in Forbes Magazine ..
"...the world's richest Chief Software Architect continues a record for
design elegance unmatched since the Yugo."

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> My primary reason for flying at 2900 feet AGL (if you consider that
>> low--I do!) is that it frees me from having to think about airways

> I was presuming he meant lower than 2900 AGL.


I almost never fly higher than 2000 AGL, and spend most of my time at
1500. I got into that habit when I spent most of my time flying below
the Washington class B's 1500 foot veil. Now, even on the Eastern Shore
of Maryland and Delaware, I still fly at 1500' most of the time. I like
looking at stuff on the ground. :-)

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Teacherjh]

One other thing to do while you're pouring over the sectionals is look for
those little parachute symbols. Even if you're up high, some parachutists are
higher.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Gene Seibel]

Basically, I download DUATs weather the night before and run my
Flitesoft program to get a time enroute. Then I run my finger across
my route and the charts to look for any special use airspace. The
thing that concerns me most nowadays is the TFR's. I usually look for
them in the DUATs download, the aeroplanner website, or both. In good
weather that's about it. In times of poor weather, I may monitor it
for a couple days before on various internet sites. On longer flight I
check out the cheap fuel on airnav.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Blanche > said:
>Roy Smith > wrote:
>>Along those lines, I think the most important thing to take on any trip
>>in a small plane is a fully-charged credit card. It can buy you fuel,
>>emergency repairs, dinner (or a hotel room) while you wait out weather,
>>a rental car, or an airline ticket.
>
>Cash. Always accepted. Never refused.

I've had hotels refuse to take me because even though I had sufficient
cash in my hand, I had maxed out my credit card (long story, long business
trip).

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If Alan Turing was alive today, the homosexuality
would be OK but he'd be in trouble for codebreaking.
-- Martin Bacon

[Blanche]

Roy Smith > wrote:

>Along those lines, I think the most important thing to take on any trip
>in a small plane is a fully-charged credit card. It can buy you fuel,
>emergency repairs, dinner (or a hotel room) while you wait out weather,
>a rental car, or an airline ticket.

Cash. Always accepted. Never refused.

[EDR]

In article >, Blanche
> wrote:

> Cash. Always accepted. Never refused.

Except to rent a car.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Nasir wrote:
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?

If I haven't made the trip before, I crank up the computer and use the fuel
finder web site to get me a selection of fuel stops. Then I plug in a few of
these into my flight planning program and pick a route I like. I usually plan
for 2 to 3.5 hour legs. I'll usually plan two scenarios, one of which is a 25
knot headwind. I'll then transfer the route to sectionals. Since this area has
lots of controlled airspace, I will usually have to select waypoints that will
allow me to avoid problem areas, but those are the only waypoints I use or
chart. For example, a flight from New Jersey to Tennessee will start at 3N6. My
first waypoint is N67 (north of Philadelphia). The next is the Linden VOR near
Front Royal, VA. From that point on, it's SHD, ROA, TRI, and my destination at
Knoxville.

I have a LORAN on board and use it for navigation as well as ETA information.
While enroute, I follow my flight on the chart and note visible features as I
pass them. This allows me to double-check the LORAN and would let me continue
the flight by pilotage if the LORAN dies.

When I bought my Maule, it had no radio gear. My technique at that time was to
use closely spaced waypoints at the start of each leg to establish my course.
After the first few miles, however, my waypoints might be 50 miles apart. If I
saw something distinctive on the ground between waypoints, I would try to locate
it on the chart. Sort of the reverse of what they usually teach you to do.

When we brought it back from Georgia, my CFI did the navigation. He used a
similar technique but paid more attention to time than I usually do. He also
used the airways a lot, even though we had no NAV radio. At altitudes of only
a few thousand feet, the VOR transmitters make good landmarks.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Judah]

I was pretty rigorous about flight planning for about the first year after
getting my PPL... I am much more willing to start a flight off the GPS then
I was back then. I think the most important thing is situational awareness
- before I'm out of my "comfort zone" where I recognize everything, I will
pop out the sectionals, and tag my last known point every 10 or 15 minutes
just to make sure.

If I'm flying for the first time to a new destination, I will be a little
bit more rigorous - marking the sectional, checking minimum altitudes, etc.
Admittedly, I use 10 GPH on a C172 as my rule of thumb - while I do
generally lean, I also can't guarantee that I am going to do better than
10, and quite frankly, my bladder has yet to last more than 5 hours in a
single leg anyway...

Really, I think weather is the big one... If there's any chance of weather
issues, I will watch it carefully - not only before I leave, but by tuning
in the ATIS/AWOS/ASOS frequencies of airports ahead of me. If there's real
concerns, I will check in with Flight Watch too...

And I ALWAYS get flight following. Quite frankly, I'd rather have FF than a
Flight Plan - if something happens, I think it will provide much more aid,
much more quickly.

Besides that, I generally have a mind flash every 10 or 15 minutes or so to
check for the nearest safe landing spot and figure out what it would take
to get there - whether it be an airport, golf course, field, or highway. Of
course, there are certain areas that I fly over where there are lots of
fields, and it seems like a non-issue, or where it's rocky and hilly, and
also a relative non-issue. So I always try to keep track of the nearest
airport, since it will be easier to deal with an emergency there than on
the 9th Hole...

On the other hand, I have always also tried to keep my skills "honest" -
and fly by hand except on really long trips. And I have recently started my
IFR training to get even better...

But then, just cause I'm a bigger slacker than you are doesn't necessarily
make it right. :)



"Nasir" > wrote in
. com:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I
> was wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before
> the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map
> and mark checkpoints that you expect to see but not calculate other
> things? Do you always calculate winds aloft and fly the appropriate
> heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
> planning x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and
> mark checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my
> destination (plus an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont
> calculate time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that
> makes getting lazy easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> This is an interesting statement that begs for an explanation. Why do you
> like to fly "very low"?

I tend to stay between 500' and 1000' AGL when I'm bucking a headwind, and, as
Jose says, I can be very pretty. Elisabeth got a little upset once when I told
her that a bunch of cows we had just flown over had brown noses, though.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Jim Weir]

How do you do that? I'm lucky to have the same old one.

{;-)

Jim



Margy Natalie >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

I always have at least 20 gals when I
->land.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Judah wrote:
>
> Admittedly, I use 10 GPH on a C172 as my rule of thumb - while I do
> generally lean, I also can't guarantee that I am going to do better than
> 10, .....

What engine do you have in there? I burn 8.6 gph with my 160 hp O-320 and flight
plan for 9. My redline is 2700 rpm, IIRC.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[John Galban]

"John Smith" > wrote in message >...
>
> Correct, of course, but if you're not using pilotage, it'll be too rusty to
> use when you need it. Something you perhaps should schedule in a few times a
> year (a pilotage-only route)?

A few times a year? You must fly IFR a lot. As a VFR guy, I
always have the chart out and follow along, no matter what method of
navigation I'm using. If the nav radio or GPS bites the dust, I'm
already using pilotage.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Andrew Sarangan]

The reason we teach all that stuff in your training is so that you
understand the steps to create a complete and thorough flight plan.
Once you gain some experience, you can decide which steps to skip
over. You have to learn the long way first before taking short cuts.

If the flight is VFR, I draw a straight line on the sectional, look
for any airspaces, and then let DUATS figure out the wind corrections
and times etc.. It takes just a few minutes to do this.

I always call FSS immediately prior to the flight to check for any
NOTAMs or TFR. This has become a hot issue recently with all the
airspace incursions.

Just yesterday we witnessed such an airspace violation. It is a class
D airport whose tower normally closed on Sundays (reverts to class G).
But yesterday there was a NOTAM saying the tower will remain open.
Just as we were on final approach, an airplane was landing in front of
us. Tower altered us that that airplane was not talking to anyone.


"Nasir" > wrote in message >...
> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir

[Ron Natalie]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message ...
> How do you do that? I'm lucky to have the same old one.
>
> {;-)
>

Must only be when she is solo, I've never seen them when I was in the plane.

[Doug]

I need to know what the weather is enroute and at destination. I need
to know how far it is. I need to know the headwinds. I need to know
how much fuel. I need to know the restricted airspaces along the way.
I need to know the frequencies I need. If I have that, I am usually
set to go. How I get this information depends on how far it is, and
how familiar I am with the route etc. It all depends. I use
Fligh****ch a lot during my longer flights, and I monitor on shorter
ones. If it is fairly good weather, I can get the enroute and
destination weather from Fligh****ch enroute. The GPS and charts give
me the rest of the information I need. I can also monitor the AWOS's
along the way. If things get dicey, I can file a flight plan enroute
and pick up flight following. If i am above the cloud deck, I can pick
up a "pop-up" for an approach or descent to below the clouds. Good
luck on your training!

Of course as a primary student, you need to do a formal flight plan.
Later on, you will learn how to abbreviate it. We have a lot of flying
freedom in the country, and I like it and respect it. Just don't run
out of gas!

(Gene Seibel) wrote in message >...
> Basically, I download DUATs weather the night before and run my
> Flitesoft program to get a time enroute. Then I run my finger across
> my route and the charts to look for any special use airspace. The
> thing that concerns me most nowadays is the TFR's. I usually look for
> them in the DUATs download, the aeroplanner website, or both. In good
> weather that's about it. In times of poor weather, I may monitor it
> for a couple days before on various internet sites. On longer flight I
> check out the cheap fuel on airnav.
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>
>
>
>
> > Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> > wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
> >
> > Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> > each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> > expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> > aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
> >
> > I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> > x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> > checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> > an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> > time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> > easier! :)
> >
> > How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
> >
> > Nasir

[GLPILOTSRV]

All my non-local flights (>25nm) are conducted IFR. If the flight is more than
2 hours, I will carry a written flight log for time and fuel consumption
checks.

G. Lee

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:34:25 GMT, EDR > wrote:

>Any patch of ground without trees or wires is a potential landing area.

Well, yes, but those patches are very rare when I fly.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Judah]

I rent out of Panorama at HPN. They have all late-model C172S's - SP's,
Millenium Editions, etc... They have O-360, 180HP engines in there, and I
think the redline is also 2700. IIRC, they're supposed to get around 8.6
at 65%, and up to either 9.2 or 9.5 at 75%, depending on density altitude
and temp and all that... I could look it up for you if you want...

The planes are really nice - I like them a lot. And like I said, an extra
gallon/hr is going to work out longer than TMTBPS (Total Mean Time
Between Pee Stops) anyway. So I generally figure on 10gph and am happy to
have an extra few minutes to be sure.

That said, now that I have started my IFR training, I might have to be
more precise, since fuel planning is more critical, or should I say,
somewhat more restrictive...



"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

>
>
> Judah wrote:
>>
>> Admittedly, I use 10 GPH on a C172 as my rule of thumb - while I do
>> generally lean, I also can't guarantee that I am going to do better
>> than 10, .....
>
> What engine do you have in there? I burn 8.6 gph with my 160 hp O-320
> and flight plan for 9. My redline is 2700 rpm, IIRC.
>
> George Patterson
> Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what
> they really hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with
> no heavy lifting".
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:33:21 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:

Like Dennis, I take a rather relaxed approach to flight planning, be
it VFR or IFR. That is not to say I skip any thing important, but I
check out the *initially* planned route and take a look at the weather
for the full route. Generally I do watch the weather enough to know
the trends. (The Weather Channel is the most watched channel in our
house)

>Well, a cross country is just a series of one hour flights strung end to
>end... To go for a one hour flight I simply check the weather and notams,
>and if there are no show stoppers we get into the plane and launch in the
>general direction of where we want to be... To go from one end of the
>country to the other, I do exactly the same -> wx / notams / fuel / go...

IE...be flexible. Like battle plans, it's a rare one that survives
the first encounter with the enemy. I don't think I've flown a long
cross county yet where I didn't have to detour a bit and often by
quite a bit. I'm not at all hesitant to swing 300 or more miles to
one side or the other to avoid something (weather, TFRs...what ever)

>Fuel stops are usually not preplanned, about two and a half hours out I
>start looking ahead an hour for the fuel stop... I try to go to a different
>airport for fuel on every trip even if it is the twentieth time I've flown
>the route.. I do avoid the jet ports simply because they have high fuel
>prices, though...

My fuels stops are kinda, sorta planned. I want an hours worth in the
tanks when I set down. As soon as I reach my assigned altitude and
have a stabilized cruise I can almost pick where I will need to stop
with my comfort factor with just a glance at the GPS. The same would
be true from watching the scenery. I do not use formal check points,
but I know where I am and how far this town is from that town and it
looks like I may have about a 40 knot head wind...I think accordingly.
If you fly the same airplane all the time you start thinking in terms
of no wind distance and adjust accordingly for real world conditions..
You won't even need a calculator.

>
>The Howie Keith Charts are the easiest I've found and I have used them off
>and on for decades... The GPS195 keeps me from blundering into controlled /
>restricted airspace, and the airport database makes it easy to look an hour
>ahead for an airport with fuel.. Out west where the airports are further
>apart I do a smidgen more preplanning on the fuel stop, but that's all...
>
>So, my flight planning is the absolute minimum possible in todays
>airspace... The reality over most of the country is that you are within ten
>minutes of an airport... Relax and look at this beautiful country instead of
>sweating over check points and being exactly on time with your flight
>plan...

I do carry both VFR and IFR charts. I have the one handy for where
ever I happen to be located. I normally don't fly airways in the mid
west and even most of the area to the east of the Rockies (if I'm high
enough) Most of the time I pick a nav aid, or airport in each ATC
area and go direct from one to the next. When I do fly airways I find
that I can expect to be diverted off airways when in or near busy
areas and end up with vectors, or "direct when able" so some nav aid.
Typically I can at that point request direct to something even more
direct.

Like Dennis, "I think" a lot of the flight planning we do is mental.
We know our planes well. We know the fuel burn very well. Even with
two engines on "Fat Albert" I think it and the Deb are pretty close in
fuel consumption.

In any case, we've gone through all the fine points of detailed flight
planning and enjoy plain old fashioned pilotage. OTOH we can file and
go on days where we'd otherwise have to stay on the ground. Still,
there are many days up here in the north where we are still ground
bound due to ice, thunderstorms, or wind.

Roger (K8RI)

>
>Denny
>
>
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:r4SAb.459877$Tr4.1276545@attbi_s03...
>> > Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I
>was
>> > wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
>> trip?
>>
>> Last spring we flew from Iowa to Florida, with a stop in Alabama, with
>less
>> formal flight planning then when I prepared for my first few 50-mile
>student
>> cross country flights.
>>
>> We subscribe to Aeroplanner, an on-line flight planning service, and
>create
>> Sectional Chart "Trip Tiks" in .pdf format upon request, printing them on
>my
>> color laser printer at work. This pretty much wraps up our "flight
>> planning" in the traditional sense, except for programming everything into
>> our AvMap GPS. Aeroplanner literally does everything for you, including
>> drawing the line on the charts, right down to the 10 nm "ticks"... (It
>also
>> creates sectionals on 8.5 x 11 inch sheets, in flip-chart form, so you
>don't
>> have the "octopus arms" of charts in the cockpit.)
>>
>> That said, it's the weather prep that really matters on a long cross
>country
>> flight -- and, if anything, this has gotten MORE extensive over the years.
>> For several days before a flight, we'll study the weather patterns on The
>> Weather Channel. I'll get a really thorough outlook briefing the night
>> before a flight, and then a standard weather briefing the morning of the
>> flight.
>>
>> I'll virtually live on ADDS and a host of other weather websites, tracking
>> the METARS and TAFS along our route of flight. I'll try to be aware of
>> trends and anomalies in the weather pattern. If they're predicting crap
>> weather the day before a flight, and it's sunny, I'll be very aware that
>the
>> NWS has no clue what's happening.
>>
>> Finally, for vacations we always plan at least three flights. If the
>> weather is socked in to the North, we'll choose our "Southern Option". If
>> it looks bad that way, too, we'll choose our Western Option. We always
>> leave our options open, and we always leave at least one "contingency day"
>> in our flight plans.
>>
>> This procedure has worked well for almost ten years, and almost 900 hours.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>> "Nasir" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>> >
>> > Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate
>time/distance/fuel
>> to
>> > each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that
>> you
>> > expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate
>> winds
>> > aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>> >
>> > I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
>> planning
>> > x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
>> > checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination
>> (plus
>> > an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
>> > time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting
>> lazy
>> > easier! :)
>> >
>> > How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>> >
>> > Nasir
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

[Bush]

Always always have a flight plan! You leave the house and tell someone
where you are going and approximately how long it should take, give
others the same courtesy when you are in the air, or just at the
airport flying hangers or Pearl Harbor Day.

GPS is quite accurate, however it is not the be all, end all of
avionics. Use your checkpoints and check them with your clock, fuel
burns can vary quite a bit during the winter in a piston aircraft.

Have a great one!

Bush

" You've got a map, a clock, a compass and a a pencil, you ought to
be able to keep your course"!

"Ceiling Zero" Starring Pat O'Brian, 1935


On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:42:27 GMT, "Nasir"
> wrote:

>Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
>wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
>Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
>each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
>expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
>aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
>I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
>x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
>checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
>an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
>time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
>easier! :)
>
>How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
>Nasir
>

[Bob Fry]

Blanche > writes:

> Roy Smith > wrote:
>
> >Along those lines, I think the most important thing to take on any trip
> >in a small plane is a fully-charged credit card. It can buy you fuel,
> >emergency repairs, dinner (or a hotel room) while you wait out weather,
> >a rental car, or an airline ticket.
>
> Cash. Always accepted. Never refused.

Cash won't work at automated airport fueling stations without an
attendant (e.g. after-hours) in the US.

[Jay Honeck]

> I like to cruise between 6,000 and 10,000 - there's NOBODY up there.

I go for the mid-latitudes, between 4500 and 6500. Well above the patterns
(in the MidWest), and well below the big boys.

My O-540 loves that altitude range as well.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Lynn Melrose]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

> Nasir wrote:
> >
> > How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> If I haven't made the trip before, I crank up the computer and use the fuel
> finder web site to get me a selection of fuel stops. Then I plug in a few of
> these into my flight planning program and pick a route I like. I usually plan
> for 2 to 3.5 hour legs. I'll usually plan two scenarios, one of which is a 25
> knot headwind. I'll then transfer the route to sectionals. Since this area has
> lots of controlled airspace, I will usually have to select waypoints that will
> allow me to avoid problem areas, but those are the only waypoints I use or
> chart. For example, a flight from New Jersey to Tennessee will start at 3N6. My
> first waypoint is N67 (north of Philadelphia).

Better update that flight planner. N67 became KLOM a year or two ago.

Anyone know if there is any significance to the letters LOM or are they random? The
airport is in Whitpain Township, uses Blue Bell as its post office, and is near
Norristown. .

[Roger Halstead]

On 08 Dec 2003 18:22:18 -0800, Bob Fry > wrote:

>Blanche > writes:
>
>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>>
>> >Along those lines, I think the most important thing to take on any trip
>> >in a small plane is a fully-charged credit card. It can buy you fuel,
>> >emergency repairs, dinner (or a hotel room) while you wait out weather,
>> >a rental car, or an airline ticket.
>>
>> Cash. Always accepted. Never refused.
>
>Cash won't work at automated airport fueling stations without an
>attendant (e.g. after-hours) in the US.

Ours is automated and CC only. Unattended, period.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:26:00 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

>"Trent Moorehead" > wrote:
>> Here's the important step: I checked over the Navigation log to make sure
>> that it somewhat matched my crude manual numbers.
>
>Excellent idea. The problem with computers is not that they make
>errors, but that they don't notice or care if you feed them bad data.
>Garbage in, garbage out. Type in the name of a GPS waypoint wrong and
>the computer is perfectly happy to send you to Nebraska instead of New
>Jersey.
>
>I once sat in the cockpit of an airline flight during the pre-flight
>preparations for a flight to Bermuda. Between the plane's computers and
>the airline's dispatch department, the flight was planned about as
>carefully and accurately as possible. But the pilot still pulled out a
>chart and a plotter (looked just like the one you got in your student
>pilot kit, except that it had the airline's name printed on it and
>looked like it had accumulated a lifetime's worth of dings and
>scratches), drew some lines, and went over it leg by leg verifying that
>the headings and distances the computer spat out looked reasonable.

This is one of the biggest problems with computers and machines. A
couple of studies about 10 years (or so) back showed that adults are
unlikely to question the output from a computer.

Most adults in the 50 and over group fall into two camps. Those that
can't, or won't use computers, and those who believe them to be
unfailing (Windows aside). Of course there is a small fraction who
believe them to be a creation of the Devil...

Young people are more likely to challenge the output of the computer
unless they are used to variable results as when using GPS, or
devices like computer games.

In between the reaction to faulty output is divided and no real
percentages exist as to how many behave in what way.

The problem is there is a very good chance of people, such as pilots,
accepting faulty output with little or no questioning. Hence it pays
to not only have completely independent navigation systems, but the
ability to fall back on pilotage where possible. Far too many accept
the current systems as their only need due to their reliability and
both let their pilotage skills atrophy and do not use independent
backup systems.

One thing to remember, that like pilotage the back up system does not
need to be as precise as the GPS, only "good enough for who its for".
IE Adequate. OTOH, those who don't trust computers are likely to
ignore inputs that they distrust. (The National Geographic episode
"Flying on Empty" is a prime example) This was the one where the
pilot received the award for the longest glider flight or something
similar.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

[Julian Scarfe]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...

> There's really only two important questions for the vast majority of
> flights most private pilots take:
>
> 1) Am I going to run into any weather I can't handle?
>
> 2) Am I going to have enough fuel to get there? Corellary: can I buy
> fuel there, or do I need to plan on enough to get back too?

I agree, but I think there are two sorts of relevant question, of which
those represent one. They address the overall "should I even take off on
this flight?" issue. And that's necessary, but not the end of flight
planning. The other aspect is "can I do things now to minimize my workload
at difficult times?"

For example, one of the most important of these is the minimum altitude that
I can descend to for each leg, and how that might vary if I'm forced off
track by weather.

You have to consider that in context. I have the chart, and if all is quiet
in the cockpit I can just look at it and work out the minimum altitude.
It's if things get busy that the pre-planning might help. Same applies to
previewing IAPs, planning frequencies, and working out tracks for each leg.
Is it worth doing every single time? Maybe not, but there are times I've
been very grateful for some pre-work!

Julian Scarfe

[John Smith]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "John Smith" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > Correct, of course, but if you're not using pilotage, it'll be too rusty
to
> > use when you need it. Something you perhaps should schedule in a few
times a
> > year (a pilotage-only route)?
>
> A few times a year? You must fly IFR a lot. As a VFR guy, I
> always have the chart out and follow along, no matter what method of
> navigation I'm using. If the nav radio or GPS bites the dust, I'm
> already using pilotage.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Actually I fly VFR only, no GPS, and very seldom VOR/NDB, thus always
pilotage. I was only making the point that (to me) it seems a lot of people
rely heavily on GPS and are probably out of touch with dead reckoning. All I
was suggesting is that we all practise the basics as often as we can.

I knew someone would flame me... I wasn't looking for it, really.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Nasir > posted:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries,
> I was wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare
> before the trip?
>
(snipped for brevity)

The idea behind the training for the PPL is to give you the tools needed
for most, if not all, situations. How much planning is needed depends on
many factors.

* Do you know where you are, and where you are going? For example, if you
live and fly in an area that you are intimately familiar with, then you'll
recognize landmarks along the way and know if you are going off course. If
you are unfamiliar with the territory, then you can't have too many
checkpoints.

* Is the wind favorable to land at your destination? During my student
days, my instructor gladly let me "plan" and go on a long xc, only to find
that there was no way to put the bird down at the destination because the
x-wind factor was beyond my personal maximums.

* The GPS is a great tool, but it isn't a substitute for planning. The
longer your x-c, the more planning you'll need to do.

* Do you *really* have enough fuel? I'm not sure what you're flying, but
nothing I fly will consume only 6 gph, except during "engine out"
practice! 8-)

Neil

[G.R. Patterson III]

Lynn Melrose wrote:
>
> Better update that flight planner. N67 became KLOM a year or two ago.

Has to be more recent than that. It's N67 on a November, 2002 sectional.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Roger Tracy]

I draw a pencil course line on the map and then highlite it in yellow. I
write the
altitudes of all MOAs by the MOA name so I don't have to look it up in the
air
later. I circle high towers in pink highliter. I mark TFRs in pink
highliter. I print
a DUATS briefing. As often as not it all changes once I get on my way and
talk to Flight Watch enroute. Stay flexible and have a plan A and plan B.



"Nasir" > wrote in message
. com...
> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the
trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel
to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that
you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate
winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when
planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination
(plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting
lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir
>
>

[John Galban]

"John Smith" > wrote in message >...
> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "John Smith" > wrote in message
> >...
> > >
> > > Correct, of course, but if you're not using pilotage, it'll be too rusty
> to
> > > use when you need it. Something you perhaps should schedule in a few
> times a
> > > year (a pilotage-only route)?
> >
> > A few times a year? You must fly IFR a lot. As a VFR guy, I
> > always have the chart out and follow along, no matter what method of
> > navigation I'm using. If the nav radio or GPS bites the dust, I'm
> > already using pilotage.
> >
> > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
> Actually I fly VFR only, no GPS, and very seldom VOR/NDB, thus always
> pilotage. I was only making the point that (to me) it seems a lot of people
> rely heavily on GPS and are probably out of touch with dead reckoning. All I
> was suggesting is that we all practise the basics as often as we can.
>
> I knew someone would flame me... I wasn't looking for it, really.

Flame?

Just an honest inquiry. It seems that we agree on the value of
pilotage, I only questioned why one would use it only a few times a
year.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dave Butler]

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:

> Thanks to the AOPA's new flight planner, I now flight plan a lot more
> than I used to. Give it a try, it's easy and very well done.

I've given it several tries. It still crashes. It still tells me about waypoints
named "Uuuuuuu". I've documented the problems to AOPA, no response.

Too bad, it seems like a reasonably well designed user interface and a lot of
function.

Dave up the road at RDU.
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

Nasir wrote:

> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>

Thanks to the AOPA's new flight planner, I now flight plan a lot more
than I used to. Give it a try, it's easy and very well done.

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Nasir wrote:
> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?

I always want a line on the chart.
I'll find the approximate time en-route, and data to tell me if I'm
behind or ahead of schedule. I certainly don't go to the nit-picky
detail that student pilots have to go to for VFR flight.

As for winds aloft, I'll look at the forecast, but I don't read anything
special into them, and don't do calculations. In the kind of planes I
fly, usually within the first few minutes of cruise flight, it's
possible to make a very good estimate of what heading must be flown to
maintain the course. Checkpoints and ground features allow fine tuning.
I've flown from cost to coast in the US using this method - without a
GPS - and never got lost.

The other thing I do is en-route, keep a note of time. I note the time
passing anything significant on the chart. Therefore when I do get
unsure of my position, it's easy to work out - "well, I was here 8
minutes ago, I must roughly be here now", and within seconds, I've
matched a landmark to something on the chart. One thing that I think is
not given anywhere near enough emphasis in VFR navigation is keeping
track of time. Time is as important as your course line.

I read an ILAFFT column, which summed up "Dead reckoning is the basis of
all aviation navigation. Everything else is just a refinement or aid".
Live by that motto and you'll never get truly lost.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Roy Smith wrote:
> "Trent Moorehead" > wrote:
>> Here's the important step: I checked over the Navigation log to make sure
>> that it somewhat matched my crude manual numbers.
>
> Excellent idea. The problem with computers is not that they make
> errors, but that they don't notice or care if you feed them bad data.
> Garbage in, garbage out. Type in the name of a GPS waypoint wrong and
> the computer is perfectly happy to send you to Nebraska instead of New
> Jersey.

That's what I like about the mechanical E6B (and I suspect why they are
still popular, when slide rules have disappeared from everwhere else) is
that they make you think about the orders of magnitudes in your
calculations, and "hrm, that's not right" seems to scream louded on a
mechanical E6B. Add to that, also for time and distance calculations,
the mechanical one is unquestionably faster.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Roy Smith]

Dylan Smith > wrote:
> As for winds aloft, I'll look at the forecast, but I don't read anything
> special into them, and don't do calculations.

Winds aloft can be a bitch. The difference between a 40 kt headwind and
a 40 kt tailwind can mean a factor of two in the range of a typical
piston single. For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm

[Rosspilot]

>For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
>take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm

That really sux. I can't believe they wouldn't SELL the pilot fuel . . . what
assholes.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> What engine do you have in there? I burn 8.6 gph with my 160 hp O-320 and
> flight
> plan for 9. My redline is 2700 rpm, IIRC.

That seems a bit high too. I used to reliably get 6.6gph at 6500' out of
our club's C172N at 105 KTAS.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Roy Smith wrote:
> Dylan Smith > wrote:
>> As for winds aloft, I'll look at the forecast, but I don't read anything
>> special into them, and don't do calculations.
>
> Winds aloft can be a bitch. The difference between a 40 kt headwind and
> a 40 kt tailwind can mean a factor of two in the range of a typical
> piston single. For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
> take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.

It's not a question of not taking the winds into *account*. I can look
at the winds aloft forecast and make a very good estimate without
needing to actually formally calculate anything. The winds aloft
forecast are really not reliable enough to be worth anything more than
estimation.

That's why I don't read anything special into them. When I get airborne,
I've often found the winds aloft (which ARE worth calculating from real
data which you're seeing now, and indeed reporting to the FSS in a
PIREP) to be many degrees different to the forecast, and usually quite
different in speed. The forecasts aren't any more good than an estimate
- what you actually find is what's good for a calculation. I've often
found that the forecast 5 knot headwind has in reality been a 20 knot
headwind or vice versa (which is a significant difference in an 85 knot
plane).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Blanche]

I've sent comments and such to AOPA and have received no response either.

Guess all they want is my money.

[Jay Honeck]

> I've sent comments and such to AOPA and have received no response either.
>
> Guess all they want is my money.

No, really? ;-)

Shoot, we've even tried to offer them discounts for their members that stay
at our inn -- no strings attached -- and they won't even respond to THAT!

AOPA is a complete mystery to me.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Royce Brown]

TTA Cherokee Driver > writes:
>Nasir wrote:
>
>> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>>
>
>Thanks to the AOPA's new flight planner, I now flight plan a lot more
>than I used to. Give it a try, it's easy and very well done.
>

Where is this on the website? Hmmm.

I have seen the website where you pay $100 per year to flightplan but I
wouldnt use it enough to pay that much.

[Kyler Laird]

(Rosspilot) writes:

>>For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
>>take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm

>That really sux. I can't believe they wouldn't SELL the pilot fuel . . . what
>assholes.

Yeah, what kind of people are these who refuse to encourage pilots
to do dumb things? They're probably the same party-poopers who
won't let their friends drive home drunk.

--kyler

[Rosspilot]

>>>For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
>>>take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
>>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm
>
>>That really sux. I can't believe they wouldn't SELL the pilot fuel . . .
>what
>>assholes.
>
>Yeah, what kind of people are these who refuse to encourage pilots
>to do dumb things? They're probably the same party-poopers who
>won't let their friends drive home drunk.
>

Kyler . . . every pilot has done dumb things. This guy had flown that plane
around the world 3 times. How does that equate to trying to drive home drunk?

www.Rosspilot.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rosspilot wrote:
>
> >For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
> >take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
> >
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm
>
> That really sux. I can't believe they wouldn't SELL the pilot fuel . . . what
> assholes.

They don't have any to spare. See
http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/031210_johanson.html

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:TC4Cb.311346$Dw6.1049830@attbi_s02...
> Shoot, we've even tried to offer them discounts for their members that
stay
> at our inn -- no strings attached -- and they won't even respond to THAT!

Why do you need AOPA's permission? Obviously, you can't *advertise* using
their name or logo without their permission. But nothing stops you from
offering a discount to AOPA members.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Shoot, we've even tried to offer them discounts for their members that
> stay
> > at our inn -- no strings attached -- and they won't even respond to
THAT!
>
> Why do you need AOPA's permission? Obviously, you can't *advertise* using
> their name or logo without their permission. But nothing stops you from
> offering a discount to AOPA members.

We do. And EAA'ers, too. And anyone who knows our "N" number! :-)

Which is beside the point. Bottom line: AOPA couldn't care less what we do
for their membership. They're not in it for them.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Jay Honeck > posted:

>>> Shoot, we've even tried to offer them discounts for their members
>>> that stay at our inn -- no strings attached -- and they won't even
>>> respond to THAT!
>>
>> Why do you need AOPA's permission? Obviously, you can't *advertise*
>> using their name or logo without their permission. But nothing
>> stops you from offering a discount to AOPA members.
>
> We do. And EAA'ers, too. And anyone who knows our "N" number! :-)
>
> Which is beside the point. Bottom line: AOPA couldn't care less what
> we do for their membership. They're not in it for them.
>
That's a rather strong statement, Jay. The member benefits are many, as
far as I can tell (I've only been a member since 2000). But, they aren't
"all inclusive". Is there some other organization that is effectively
advocating for GA on a national level? Is there no benefit to the free
on-line services, such as DUATs and Jeppesen plates, or receiving local
notice of TFRs by e-mail that members receive?

To look at it another way, why would AOPA care one way or another whether
you offer discounts to their members? If you were talking to a commercial
operation, like Sporty's, I'd expect a response, because you are
co-marketing and offering an in-kind value that may attract customers to
both businesses, much like the credit card companies that offer kick-backs
for purchases made at Sporty's. But, you may even be too "local" to be of
interest in that example, as well.

I think that if I were coming to stay at your Inn, I'd much rather know
your N number, anyway! ;-)

Neil

[Kyler Laird]

(Rosspilot) writes:

>>>>For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
>>>>take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
>>>>
>>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm
>>
>>>That really sux. I can't believe they wouldn't SELL the pilot fuel . . .
>>what
>>>assholes.
>>
>>Yeah, what kind of people are these who refuse to encourage pilots
>>to do dumb things? They're probably the same party-poopers who
>>won't let their friends drive home drunk.

>Kyler . . . every pilot has done dumb things.

That's an astute observation. Thank you for sharing it.

>This guy had flown that plane
>around the world 3 times.

...so he should have had a clue of what procedures to follow and what
risks are involved.

>How does that equate to trying to drive home drunk?

Read the article you quoted and let me know when you get to this
part.
"He appears to have gone in there without a search and
rescue plan and without a contingency plan if things go
wrong, and he's expecting the New Zealand and United
States Governments to pick up and be his contingency,"
Mr Sanson added.

He didn't have a good plan for dealing with headwinds. He got
bitten. Now you want people to encourage this behavior so that
other pilots are more likely to do the same? And you really don't
see how poor fuel management in a plane equates to driving drunk?
(Hints: both kill, both can be readily avoided.)

Yes, I realize that there are US citizens who always expect to be
bailed out when they fail to plan ahead. I'm not one of them. (I
just work in California. I live in Indiana.)

--kyler

[Richard Russell]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:42:48 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

>Dylan Smith > wrote:
>> As for winds aloft, I'll look at the forecast, but I don't read anything
>> special into them, and don't do calculations.
>
>Winds aloft can be a bitch. The difference between a 40 kt headwind and
>a 40 kt tailwind can mean a factor of two in the range of a typical
>piston single. For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
>take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm


In the Philadelphia area I am usually dealing with winds aloft data
from Atlantic City and Wilkes Barre. Because of differences in
topography, proximity to the ocean and a host of issues that I am
probably unaware of, the data from these two locations varies
considerably. I'm usually flying somewhere in between so I attempt to
interpolate but the direction and speed is often so disparate that my
interpolation is all but useless. I still solicit this data but I use
it more to establish a set of expectations.

Rich Russell

[Rosspilot]

>
>>>>>For a good example of what can go wrong if you don't
>>>>>take winds aloft into account properly, see the following link.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3306443.stm
>>>
>>>>That really sux. I can't believe they wouldn't SELL the pilot fuel . . .
>>>what
>>>>assholes.
>>>
>>>Yeah, what kind of people are these who refuse to encourage pilots
>>>to do dumb things? They're probably the same party-poopers who
>>>won't let their friends drive home drunk.
>
>>Kyler . . . every pilot has done dumb things.
>
>That's an astute observation. Thank you for sharing it.
>
You brought it up, jerk.

>>This guy had flown that plane
>>around the world 3 times.
>
>..so he should have had a clue of what procedures to follow and what
>risks are involved.
>
>>How does that equate to trying to drive home drunk?
>
>Read the article you quoted and let me know when you get to this
>part.
> "He appears to have gone in there without a search and
> rescue plan and without a contingency plan if things go
> wrong, and he's expecting the New Zealand and United
> States Governments to pick up and be his contingency,"
> Mr Sanson added.
>
>He didn't have a good plan for dealing with headwinds. He got
>bitten. Now you want people to encourage this behavior so that
>other pilots are more likely to do the same? And you really don't
>see how poor fuel management in a plane equates to driving drunk?
>(Hints: both kill, both can be readily avoided.)
>

Idiot. This guy is an adventurer . . . not a typical spamcan driver with a
PPL. By your logic, when Steve Fossett tries to balloon around the world, and
gets forced down in the middle of Russia or some remote part of China, nobody
should help him either.

>Yes, I realize that there are US citizens who always expect to be
>bailed out when they fail to plan ahead. I'm not one of them. (I
>just work in California. I live in Indiana.)
>
Idiot. He's not asking to be "bailed out". He just wants to buy some fuel.



www.Rosspilot.com

[Jay Honeck]

> To look at it another way, why would AOPA care one way or another whether
> you offer discounts to their members?

As far as I can tell, AOPA is aviation's rendition of AAA. As
organizations, both advocate for their members -- which means that they use
their numbers as leverage to obtain discounted rates wherever they can.

Thus, the AAA discount at hotels and motels, worldwide. And the silly Hertz
and Avis "discounts" we receive as part of our membership. (Which lowers
their rates to only double what Enterprise charges, but that's another
subject...)

I suspect it's just a matter of "where the heck is Iowa?" from their
membership folks. But you have to ask yourself why would AOPA NOT respond
positively -- there is simply no downside for them, and only an upside for
their members -- of which Mary and I are two.

As I've said, I believe it's just another case of big bureaucracy. And it's
not just AOPA -- pretty much any organization with more than 20 employees
soon becomes self-focused, existing primarily to ensure its own survival.
Thus, "it's about the money".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blanche]

Neil Gould > wrote:

[ Jay's comments snipped ]

>That's a rather strong statement, Jay. The member benefits are many, as
>far as I can tell (I've only been a member since 2000). But, they aren't
>"all inclusive". Is there some other organization that is effectively
>advocating for GA on a national level? Is there no benefit to the free
>on-line services, such as DUATs and Jeppesen plates, or receiving local
>notice of TFRs by e-mail that members receive?

1) by the time I get AOPA's TFR notice I've already seen it days before
2) DUATs from AOPA? Why? It's already available for free from the two
major DUATs providers -- which AOPA piggy-backs upon
3) Jepp plates? Why? Already available from Jepp.

And 4) -- one you haven't mentioned is flight planning -- again I ask
Why? For those of us who do not use Microsoft products, it's not
possible to use. And if our membership money was used to develop it,
then AOPA took my money and gave me no benefit for it.

*grump*

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rosspilot wrote:
>
> Idiot. He's not asking to be "bailed out". He just wants to buy some fuel.

That would probably be no problem if he burned jet-A, Ross, but this is
Antarctica. There aren't any Exxon stations down there. They're probably only
offering him a ride out because they don't have extra food for him either.

If I set down on Gregory's Bald in the Smokies due to lack of fuel, I wouldn't
expect the National Park Service to hump a bunch of 100LL up there for me. I'd
be grateful if they allowed me to pack a bunch in myself instead of forcing me
to pay for airlifting the plane out by chopper.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Teacherjh]

>>
He didn't have a good plan for dealing with headwinds. He got
bitten. Now you want people to encourage this behavior so that
other pilots are more likely to do the same?
<<

How is this different from any other mishap due to poor planning? We go out
and look every time an ELT beeps, forchrissakes, and we don't punish them by
saying "we're not a frigging hospital - you should have brought your own
splints".

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[EDR]

Jay, you may not "contribute" enough money to either EAA or AOPA.
I was at the AOPA PAC dinner at the AOPA convention. At the end of the
evening, Hal Shevers walked up and handed Phil Boyer a check, which
Boyer announced to the crowd in attendance, was the maximum allowable
donation ($2000?).
You give, you get.

[Kyler Laird]

(Rosspilot) writes:

>>>Kyler . . . every pilot has done dumb things.
>>
>>That's an astute observation. Thank you for sharing it.
>>
>You brought it up, jerk.

I welcome you to point out anything I said that makes you think
I made any comment even hinting that some pilots don't do dumb
things, genius.

>Idiot. This guy is an adventurer . . . not a typical spamcan driver with a
>PPL. By your logic, when Steve Fossett tries to balloon around the world, and
>gets forced down in the middle of Russia or some remote part of China, nobody
>should help him either.

You're not doing well applying my logic. I certainly wouldn't
suggest such a thing and to pretend that no help has been offered
or given to this pilot is to ignore the facts as stated in the
article you quoted.

Are you asserting that Steve Fossett made no contingency plans
(other than "hope someone helps me") before his flights? Do you
want to put some money behind that or just continue with the name
calling?

>>Yes, I realize that there are US citizens who always expect to be
>>bailed out when they fail to plan ahead. I'm not one of them. (I
>>just work in California. I live in Indiana.)
>>
>Idiot. He's not asking to be "bailed out". He just wants to buy some fuel.

Did he think about that *before* taking off?

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

"G.R. Patterson III" > writes:

>> Idiot. He's not asking to be "bailed out". He just wants to buy some fuel.

>That would probably be no problem if he burned jet-A, Ross, but this is
>Antarctica.

I'm reading more into it. My take is that they wouldn't even want
to encourage kerosene-burners to just take off on poorly-planned
recreational flights in the area. (So sorry, Mike.)

--kyler

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Blanche > posted:

> Neil Gould > wrote:
>
> [ Jay's comments snipped ]
>
>> That's a rather strong statement, Jay. The member benefits are many,
>> as far as I can tell (I've only been a member since 2000). But, they
>> aren't "all inclusive". Is there some other organization that is
>> effectively advocating for GA on a national level? Is there no
>> benefit to the free on-line services, such as DUATs and Jeppesen
>> plates, or receiving local notice of TFRs by e-mail that members
>> receive?
>
> 1) by the time I get AOPA's TFR notice I've already seen it days
> before
>
Sounds like you could benefit from a new internet service! The notices I
receive are often tentative and haven't even entered the FAA's briefer's
network.

2) DUATs from AOPA? Why? It's already available for free from
> the two major DUATs providers
>
Free?

> 3) Jepp plates? Why? Already available from Jepp.
>
Free?

I guess your dissatisfaction goes to reinforce the notion that you can't
please everybody!

Regards,

Neil

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> How is this different from any other mishap due to poor planning? We go
out
> and look every time an ELT beeps, forchrissakes, and we don't punish them
by
> saying "we're not a frigging hospital - you should have brought your own
> splints".

You're right, it's no different. And if a pilot got their airplane stranded
in the middle of the Rockies because it ran out of fuel, the extent of
support the pilot would receive would be search and rescue. The pilot would
not get any special dispensation for fuel, nor should he expect it.

Same as the guy in Antarctica. He should be thankful he's getting a ride
home. He has no reason to expect fuel to be provided to him. If he wants
fuel, he can contract to have it delivered to the airplane himself. Of
course, it'd probably be cheaper to just buy a new plane, but that's his
choice.

There's a big difference between providing splints and retrieving personal
property.

Pete

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

Dave Butler wrote:

> TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
>
>> Thanks to the AOPA's new flight planner, I now flight plan a lot more
>> than I used to. Give it a try, it's easy and very well done.
>
>
> I've given it several tries. It still crashes. It still tells me about
> waypoints named "Uuuuuuu". I've documented the problems to AOPA, no
> response.
>
> Too bad, it seems like a reasonably well designed user interface and a
> lot of function.
>
> Dave up the road at RDU.
> Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
>
>

Bummer, Hmm I've never experienced that. I wonder if there is some
specific waypoint or area of the map that causes that? I haven't heard
a lot of other complaints about it either. Have you tried it on a
different computer?

[Dave Butler]

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>> TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to the AOPA's new flight planner, I now flight plan a lot more
>>> than I used to. Give it a try, it's easy and very well done.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've given it several tries. It still crashes. It still tells me about
>> waypoints named "Uuuuuuu". I've documented the problems to AOPA, no
>> response.
>>
>> Too bad, it seems like a reasonably well designed user interface and a
>> lot of function.
>>
>> Dave up the road at RDU.
>> Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
>>
>>
>
> Bummer, Hmm I've never experienced that. I wonder if there is some
> specific waypoint or area of the map that causes that? I haven't heard
> a lot of other complaints about it either. Have you tried it on a
> different computer?

Well, I've mentioned my problems here a couple of times and nobody has said "me
too", so I guess it's something unique to me. Can't imagine what.

I only have the one Windoze computer, my other ones all run either Linux or
Solaris. The windows machine has fairly recently been re-installed with Win 98
and all the updates from microsoft.com. Maybe I'll try uninstalling and
installing the flight planner again... good ole Windoze. Maybe I have to give
micro$oft some $$ and upgrade to XP. Naw, it's not worth that.

I'll struggle along with DUAT flight planning (which, incidentally, lets me
specify the route without any goofy rubber-banding GUI interface).

Thanks for your interest.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Dennis O'Connor]

The scientific bases on the Antarctic and their
signatory governments have internal rules against private adventurers,
because they usually have to spend huge amounts of time and money to rescue
these idiots... It is no different than complaining to the USA government
about the no fly zone around the President - a total waste of time as it is
not a policy subject to public opinion.. Same situation in the
Antarctic...Johanson will get no fuel, and he will get a whopping bill for
removing his airplane... Had he actually crashed and dumped fuel and engine
oil onto the ice pack he would have been subject to penalties under treaty
laws... While we may have sympathy for him as a fellow pilot, his ill
conceived and poorly planned stunt will result in even tighter rules
restricting private flying in the Antarctic region... Mr. Johanson has done
a disservice to the flying community...

Denny
>
> >> Idiot. He's not asking to be "bailed out". He just wants to buy some
fuel.

[Rosspilot]

>Mr. Johanson has done
>a disservice to the flying community...

I see him as the kind of spirit that *created* aviation. He flew his homebuilt
around the world 3 times fer cryin' out loud.

He's in the tradition of Lindbergh, Amelia Earhardt, Ruttan, Yeager and all the
other cutting-edge adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test
themselves and their flying machines.

So he made an unscheduled stop due to unforeseen circumstances.

I'm not saying they OWE him fuel. I'm just saying if they had it to spare,
they ought to sell it to him.

As for doing a disservice to the flying community, I just can't see it. There
probably aren't enough pilots in the world who would even consider flying over
the south pole in a plane like his to worry much about encouraging or
discouraging others.

www.Rosspilot.com

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Teacherjh wrote:

> >>
> He didn't have a good plan for dealing with headwinds. He got
> bitten. Now you want people to encourage this behavior so that
> other pilots are more likely to do the same?
> <<
>
> How is this different from any other mishap due to poor planning? We go out
> and look every time an ELT beeps, forchrissakes, and we don't punish them by
> saying "we're not a frigging hospital - you should have brought your own
> splints".

It's different because it's Antarctica, perhaps?

I'm sure the American & NZ Antarctic crews would have gone out & run SAR
for this guy if he hadn't shown up on time; the REAL issue is that
neither organization is in the business of providing logistical support to
private Antarctic trips!

If pilot-boy had arranged to have a few hundred litres of 100LL shipped
down beforehand, he'd have had less difficulty. As it is, why should the
Yanks or Kiwis bail him out?

(besides, most of the a/c I've heard of operating down there are turbine
equipped. I doubt there is any spare 100LL sitting around!)

Brian.

[EDR]

In article >, Rosspilot
> wrote:

> I see him as the kind of spirit that *created* aviation. He flew his
> homebuilt around the world 3 times fer cryin' out loud.
> He's in the tradition of Lindbergh, Amelia Earhardt, Ruttan, Yeager and all
> the other cutting-edge adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test
> themselves and their flying machines.

How do you figure? He has been flying a proven design over proven
routes for years. How is that cutting edge? Where is the risk? He
certainly isn't a trailblazer.

> So he made an unscheduled stop due to unforeseen circumstances.
> I'm not saying they OWE him fuel. I'm just saying if they had it to spare,
> they ought to sell it to him.

How can it be unforseen? There are weather stations throughout the
Antartic that report their observations. There are historical weather
data available. His failure was inadaquate planning and failure to
cache fuel in advance.

> As for doing a disservice to the flying community, I just can't see it. There
> probably aren't enough pilots in the world who would even consider flying over
> the south pole in a plane like his to worry much about encouraging or
> discouraging others.
> www.Rosspilot.com

I disagree. There are many more fools and idiots who would try such a
stunt with even less experience who who not only expect, but demand
that the researchers base in Antartica provide them with whatever they
demanded.

As I heard reported on NPR this morning, the British woman who has been
flying around the world has offered Johanson the fuel that she has
cached in Antartica.
I give this woman higher marks than Johanson. At least she planned
ahead.

[Kyler Laird]

(Teacherjh) writes:

>>>
>He didn't have a good plan for dealing with headwinds. He got
>bitten. Now you want people to encourage this behavior so that
>other pilots are more likely to do the same?
><<

>How is this different from any other mishap due to poor planning?

It's in an area where one should not expect a AAA tow truck.

>We go out
>and look every time an ELT beeps, forchrissakes, and we don't punish them by
>saying "we're not a frigging hospital - you should have brought your own
>splints".

They're not withholding medical attention. They're even providing
food, water, and shelter, and offering transportation.

Are you even trying to relate this to the situation at hand or are
you just taking off on a tangent?

--kyler

[Dave Stadt]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >Mr. Johanson has done
> >a disservice to the flying community...
>
> I see him as the kind of spirit that *created* aviation. He flew his
homebuilt
> around the world 3 times fer cryin' out loud.
>
> He's in the tradition of Lindbergh, Amelia Earhardt, Ruttan, Yeager and
all the
> other cutting-edge adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test
> themselves and their flying machines.

You have got to be kidding.

[Rosspilot]

>adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test
>> themselves and their flying machines.
>
>You have got to be kidding.

What's with you guys? A guy builds a plane himself and flies it around the
world
3 times and you don't think that's something, huh?

Well I haven't done it. I haven't even managed to go coast-to-coast yet. I'm
pretty easily impressed, I guess.
Oh, well.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Dave Stadt]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test
> >> themselves and their flying machines.
> >
> >You have got to be kidding.
>
> What's with you guys? A guy builds a plane himself and flies it around
the
> world
> 3 times and you don't think that's something, huh?
>
> Well I haven't done it. I haven't even managed to go coast-to-coast yet.
I'm
> pretty easily impressed, I guess.
> Oh, well.
>
>
> www.Rosspilot.com


Granted he has made some remarkable flights but he is not even in the same
church as those you listed much less the same pew.

[Rosspilot]

>> >adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test
>> >> themselves and their flying machines.
>> >
>> >You have got to be kidding.
>>
>> What's with you guys? A guy builds a plane himself and flies it around
>the
>> world
>> 3 times and you don't think that's something, huh?
>>
>> Well I haven't done it. I haven't even managed to go coast-to-coast yet.
>I'm
>> pretty easily impressed, I guess.
>> Oh, well.
>>
>>
>> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>
>Granted he has made some remarkable flights but he is not even in the same
>church as those you listed much less the same pew.


OK. So he's *just* an adventurous and courageous spirit.

That's a lot considering the average man I run into in my life.





www.Rosspilot.com

[Andrew Rowley]

Brian Burger > wrote:

>If pilot-boy had arranged to have a few hundred litres of 100LL shipped
>down beforehand, he'd have had less difficulty. As it is, why should the
>Yanks or Kiwis bail him out?

It's probably not that simple. He wasn't planning to end up where he
did, my understanding is it was his 3rd choice. It's probably not
feasible to send fuel to all the places you MIGHT end up. I suspect if
you didn't use it you would also have to pay to ship it out again too
- they probably don't want barrels of avgas sitting around there
indefinitely.

[Kyler Laird]

Andrew Rowley > writes:

>Brian Burger > wrote:

>>If pilot-boy had arranged to have a few hundred litres of 100LL shipped
>>down beforehand, he'd have had less difficulty. As it is, why should the
>>Yanks or Kiwis bail him out?

>It's probably not that simple. He wasn't planning to end up where he
>did, my understanding is it was his 3rd choice. It's probably not
>feasible to send fuel to all the places you MIGHT end up.

Nope, but it is feasible to call ahead and say "If I land at your airport
am I going to be able to get fuel from you?" I'd bet that the scientists
would have told him "No, you will not." Then he could have used that
knowledge in his flight planning (on the ground and in the air). If he
really wanted to be able to immediately fly out of that location if he
had to use it, he would make arrangements to get fuel there.

Note that we don't know that the pilot is whining about not being able to
force the scientists to provide fuel to him. That's just Rosspilot. It
could be that our world-traveling pilot is being perfectly reasonable,
saying "Darn it. I was hoping this wouldn't happen, but it sure beats
taking a cold swim" and just trying to make the best of the situation.

--kyler

[Frederick Wilson]

Dave,

you could always use FlightPlanner.com. It is web based and you should be
able to use it from mozilla or any of the linux browsers

Someday I will learn more about linux and get my home network up and
running.

Fred


"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
> TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
> > Dave Butler wrote:
> >
> >> TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks to the AOPA's new flight planner, I now flight plan a lot more
> >>> than I used to. Give it a try, it's easy and very well done.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I've given it several tries. It still crashes. It still tells me about
> >> waypoints named "Uuuuuuu". I've documented the problems to AOPA, no
> >> response.
> >>
> >> Too bad, it seems like a reasonably well designed user interface and a
> >> lot of function.
> >>
> >> Dave up the road at RDU.
> >> Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Bummer, Hmm I've never experienced that. I wonder if there is some
> > specific waypoint or area of the map that causes that? I haven't heard
> > a lot of other complaints about it either. Have you tried it on a
> > different computer?
>
> Well, I've mentioned my problems here a couple of times and nobody has
said "me
> too", so I guess it's something unique to me. Can't imagine what.
>
> I only have the one Windoze computer, my other ones all run either Linux
or
> Solaris. The windows machine has fairly recently been re-installed with
Win 98
> and all the updates from microsoft.com. Maybe I'll try uninstalling and
> installing the flight planner again... good ole Windoze. Maybe I have to
give
> micro$oft some $$ and upgrade to XP. Naw, it's not worth that.
>
> I'll struggle along with DUAT flight planning (which, incidentally, lets
me
> specify the route without any goofy rubber-banding GUI interface).
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> Dave
> Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
>

[Kyler Laird]

"Frederick Wilson" > writes:

>you could always use FlightPlanner.com. It is web based and you should be
>able to use it from mozilla or any of the linux browsers

Aeroplanner is usable from Mozilla/Linux. Gotta turn on cookies (grumble
grumble), but it works without JavaScript.

--kyler

[Frederick Wilson]

Whoopsie, Aeroplanner. Your right.

Fred


"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> "Frederick Wilson" > writes:
>
> >you could always use FlightPlanner.com. It is web based and you should be
> >able to use it from mozilla or any of the linux browsers
>
> Aeroplanner is usable from Mozilla/Linux. Gotta turn on cookies (grumble
> grumble), but it works without JavaScript.
>
> --kyler

[David Megginson]

Frederick Wilson wrote (that Kyler wrote):

>>Aeroplanner is usable from Mozilla/Linux. Gotta turn on cookies (grumble
>>grumble), but it works without JavaScript.

The nice thing about Mozilla is that you can enable cookies on a
site-by-site basis: it's no problem to have cookies on for Aeroplanner (and,
say, your bank), and off for everything else.


All the best,


David

[Peter Duniho]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
> The nice thing about Mozilla is that you can enable cookies on a
> site-by-site basis

You can do this in Internet Explorer too. Sites can be allowed or blocked
explicitly, to override whatever your default settings are.

[Andrew Rowley]

Kyler Laird > wrote:

>Nope, but it is feasible to call ahead and say "If I land at your airport
>am I going to be able to get fuel from you?" I'd bet that the scientists
>would have told him "No, you will not." Then he could have used that
>knowledge in his flight planning (on the ground and in the air). If he
>really wanted to be able to immediately fly out of that location if he
>had to use it, he would make arrangements to get fuel there.
>
>Note that we don't know that the pilot is whining about not being able to
>force the scientists to provide fuel to him. That's just Rosspilot. It
>could be that our world-traveling pilot is being perfectly reasonable,
>saying "Darn it. I was hoping this wouldn't happen, but it sure beats
>taking a cold swim" and just trying to make the best of the situation.

The interview I heard he said they made a mistake in continuing too
far before making the decision, and he could not make it back to New
Zealand. Sounded a fair enough assessment to me.

I am sure he knew that fuel could/would be a problem when he made the
decision to land there, but he chose to land there rather than going
elsewhere where the weather was a risk. At least he is:
- alive and unharmed,
- his aircraft is intact
- and no-one had to go looking for him
They are the main points I think. Should he have gone elsewhere if he
knew he wouldn't get fuel there? If so, where?

My impression is that certain groups are trying to paint him in as bad
a light as possible, basically to justify the ultra hard line being
taken - or maybe as part of the deterrent. This includes more than the
fuel issue - according to reports he has not been able to use their
telephones, and during one interview he said they would not even let
him charge his own phone.

There is an article in todays paper about the reception others have
got on expeditions to Antarctica, it sounds like the treatment is a
standard thing:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/13/1071125711709.html

[Teacherjh]

>>
If he
really wanted to be able to immediately fly out of that location if he
had to use it, he would make arrangements to get fuel there.
<<

I suppose that's reasonable, for every set of airports he might need to use.
And if he didn't use them, he should make arrangements to get the fuel back out
of there.

Not

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Brian Burger]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2003, Teacherjh wrote:

> >>
> If he
> really wanted to be able to immediately fly out of that location if he
> had to use it, he would make arrangements to get fuel there.
> <<
>
> I suppose that's reasonable, for every set of airports he might need to use.
> And if he didn't use them, he should make arrangements to get the fuel back out
> of there.
>
> Not

The pilot in question was flightplanning for *Antarctica*. Or at least,
was supposed to be... There are NO commercial fuel suppliers
down there; none of the government-run research projects are in the
business of supplying private expeditions.

This suggests that a cache of fuel shipped down to McMurdo earlier this
year might not have been a bad way to spend some money. Even if he might
have spent some more money shipping it all home again.

This is just basic logistics, really.

Brian.

[Teacherjh]

>>
This suggests that a cache of fuel shipped down to McMurdo earlier this
year might not have been a bad way to spend some money. Even if he might
have spent some more money shipping it all home again.
<<

And what is that cache of fuel supposed to be shipped IN? What if THAT mission
got buggered for some other reason? There's a point at which things just get
too complicated and the chance of mishap increases.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[John Roncallo]

Nasir wrote:

> Having received my PPL recently and been on several cross countries, I was
> wondering how extensive of a flight plan do people prepare before the trip?
>
> Do you guys do all the checkpoints on a map, calculate time/distance/fuel to
> each leg? Do you just draw the line on the map and mark checkpoints that you
> expect to see but not calculate other things? Do you always calculate winds
> aloft and fly the appropriate heading?
>
> I have found myself getting lazy and I dont do all that I did when planning
> x-countries when I was training. I tend to draw my line and mark
> checkpoints, make sure I have plenty of fuel to get to my destination (plus
> an hour more) based on 6gal/hr average. But I dont calculate
> time/distance/fuel to each leg. I also have a GPS so that makes getting lazy
> easier! :)
>
> How much do you all plan before each x-country? Am I the only slacker?
>
> Nasir
>
>

I use IFR charts. They basically have all the flight planning on them
all worked out. It may not be a straight line but I can get in the
airplane and go.

John Roncallo

[Montblack]

("Andrew Rowley" wrote)
<snip>
> There is an article in todays paper about the reception others have
> got on expeditions to Antarctica, it sounds like the treatment is a
> standard thing:
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/13/1071125711709.html


After re-reading the piece, I think the *hut and airplane* section is from
1985. If so, is there a Cessna sitting down there "rotting?" How'd they get
a Cessna out of there in 1985?

Can you imagine flying and maintaining an abandoned (then salvaged) Cessna
....in Antarctica?

FAR's - in Antarctica? We don't need no stink'n FAR's.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/13/1071125711709.html

(From the article above)
We were told that the Cessna - and the expeditionary hut - would be left to
rot on the ice.

Two or three days went by. You lose track of time in the 24-hour light. At
an angry expedition meeting, it was decided three men would stay behind on
Cape Evans, as caretakers of the hut and the plane.

Meanwhile, according to the plan, money for a transport plane or ship would
somehow be raised in the coming year.

However, the three men who remained behind were declared personae non grata
by the Americans and apparently found little joy at the New Zealand station.
[end of article]

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif

[Kyler Laird]

(Teacherjh) writes:

>>>
>If he
>really wanted to be able to immediately fly out of that location if he
>had to use it, he would make arrangements to get fuel there.
><<

>I suppose that's reasonable, for every set of airports he might need to use.
>And if he didn't use them, he should make arrangements to get the fuel back out
>of there.

>Not

Did you miss the part where I said "If he really wanted to be able to
immediately fly out"? I'm not suggesting that it's reasonable for him
to make arrangements to immediately fly out of any location he might
use. The point was that if he did not make arrangements, he shouldn't
be surprised and abrasive to find that the resources aren't available.

'course we don't know that he was. It's just a couple of loud pilots
here who seem to expect the world to make up for their lack of
planning.

--kyler

[Rosspilot]

>It's just a couple of loud pilots
>here who seem to expect the world to make up for their lack of
>planning.

Hey, Kyler . . .this "loud" pilot is getting tired of your obnoxious
commentary.

The man is a fellow aviator, one with courage and probably more piloting skill
and experience than you have amassed in your entire life.

That he finds himself stranded in the Antarctic without fuel deserves more than
your curt, unforgiving "he should have planned better" criticism.

You better remember that when YOU make some error that leaves YOU in
circumstances where YOU need assistance to bail your butt out.

Oh, I forgot, you are the PERFECT pilot, and you *never* make mistakes, do you?

(loudly)
www.Rosspilot.com

[Kyler Laird]

(Teacherjh) writes:

>And what is that cache of fuel supposed to be shipped IN? What if THAT mission
>got buggered for some other reason? There's a point at which things just get
>too complicated and the chance of mishap increases.

Darn it! We really must do something to make minimally-planned
recreational flights near the poles less of a hassle.

How are people going to follow "in the tradition of Lindbergh,
Amelia Earhardt, Ruttan, Yeager and all the other cutting-edge
adventurous courageous spirits who set out to test themselves
and their flying machines" if they have to put a bunch of effort
into logistics?

--kyler

[Rosspilot]

To the NG:

I apologize.

Of course, when it all comes down to it, he *should have planned better*. I'm
not disputing that.

But as a fellow pilot who admires men who set out on adventures (that most men
only read or dream about), I would extend myself to assist in getting him
airborne again.

That the station did not HAVE sufficient fuel makes the entire argument
academic.
When I first heard the story, I got the impression that they simply refused to
sell it ONLY to discourage other adventurers from heading there. I also didn't
think there was a long line waiting to make that kind of
flight.

Turns out I was wrong on both counts, apparently.

I'm returning to my normally-civil self now.
<G>



www.Rosspilot.com

[Kyler Laird]

(Rosspilot) writes:

>You better remember that when YOU make some error that leaves YOU in
>circumstances where YOU need assistance to bail your butt out.

I won't need to. It's automatic that I take responsibility for my
(in)actions.

>Oh, I forgot, you are the PERFECT pilot, and you *never* make mistakes, do you?

I'm not sure why it is that you're so interested in my behavior, nor
why you have such difficulty trying to guess it correctly, but I am
impressed by your tenacity in the face of constant failure.

--kyler

[Dave Butler]

Frederick Wilson wrote:
> Dave,
>
> you could always use FlightPlanner.com. It is web based and you should be
> able to use it from mozilla or any of the linux browsers

I do use it sometimes. Thanks.