x-country solo

[Joe Johnson]

Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.

Planning went fine. One long outbound leg (to satisfy the FARs) and two
shorter inbound legs to fulfill the three landings requirement.

Outbound leg: went great. Course maintained and all visual landmarks
nailed, within a minute of expected time. Landed, got logbook signed, took
off on 1st inbound leg.

First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC); VOR on
field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual checkpoints. Instead,
approached another class D field nearby (call it XYZ). Not to make excuses,
but ABC and XYZ actually have some geographic similarities: distance &
direction from towns of about the same size, as well as similar relation to
highways and bodies of water, etc). The visual checkpoints enroute were
also close to each other. However, student ignored two key pieces of
evidence that wrong field was being approached:

--ABC tower reported no radar contact (why student continued approach to XYZ
is therefore unfathomable).
--VOR indicated progressive deviation from course (also not surprising).

Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted, mistake
acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered. (No mention either way of
violation for busting the XYZ class D airspace. Student's main concern is
actually to learn from this error, violation or no).

Trip continued to ABC as planned and on to home. Congratulations offered
for completing x-country solo. No mention of error by student or
instructor.

Suggestions solicited & greatly appreciated...

[Harry Gordon]

That almost sounds like some of my flights :-).

Harry
PP-ASEL

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m...
> Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.
>
> Planning went fine. One long outbound leg (to satisfy the FARs) and two
> shorter inbound legs to fulfill the three landings requirement.
>
> Outbound leg: went great. Course maintained and all visual landmarks
> nailed, within a minute of expected time. Landed, got logbook signed,
took
> off on 1st inbound leg.
>
> First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC); VOR
on
> field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual checkpoints. Instead,
> approached another class D field nearby (call it XYZ). Not to make
excuses,
> but ABC and XYZ actually have some geographic similarities: distance &
> direction from towns of about the same size, as well as similar relation
to
> highways and bodies of water, etc). The visual checkpoints enroute were
> also close to each other. However, student ignored two key pieces of
> evidence that wrong field was being approached:
>
> --ABC tower reported no radar contact (why student continued approach to
XYZ
> is therefore unfathomable).
> --VOR indicated progressive deviation from course (also not surprising).
>
> Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
> tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted,
mistake
> acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered. (No mention either way of
> violation for busting the XYZ class D airspace. Student's main concern
is
> actually to learn from this error, violation or no).
>
> Trip continued to ABC as planned and on to home. Congratulations offered
> for completing x-country solo. No mention of error by student or
> instructor.
>
> Suggestions solicited & greatly appreciated...
>
>

[Teacherjh]

Be glad it wasn't in far southern california. On the border of US and Mexico
are two similar airports right next to each other. It's not difficult to
mistake one for another. I almost did (while dodging clouds).

The kicker is that one is in the US, and the other is in Mexico.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Cub Driver]

I think that recognizing airports is one of the most difficult things
a student must do, especially grass fields. One time I was actually in
the pattern to land on a vacant lot, thinking it was my home field.
(Well, I was on the 45...) And always, it seemed to me, the instructor
was saying in a rather worried tone: "Do you see the airport?" and of
course I didn't.

Then there comes the day when airports are the most obvious part of
the landscape. They just leap out at you, especially asphalt runways.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Eric Miller]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m...
> Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.
>
> Planning went fine. One long outbound leg (to satisfy the FARs) and two
> shorter inbound legs to fulfill the three landings requirement.
>
> Outbound leg: went great. Course maintained and all visual landmarks
> nailed, within a minute of expected time. Landed, got logbook signed,
took
> off on 1st inbound leg.
>
> First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC); VOR
on
> field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual checkpoints. Instead,
> approached another class D field nearby (call it XYZ). Not to make
excuses,
> but ABC and XYZ actually have some geographic similarities: distance &
> direction from towns of about the same size, as well as similar relation
to
> highways and bodies of water, etc). The visual checkpoints enroute were
> also close to each other. However, student ignored two key pieces of
> evidence that wrong field was being approached:
>
> --ABC tower reported no radar contact (why student continued approach to
XYZ
> is therefore unfathomable).
> --VOR indicated progressive deviation from course (also not surprising).
>
> Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
> tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted,
mistake
> acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered. (No mention either way of
> violation for busting the XYZ class D airspace. Student's main concern
is
> actually to learn from this error, violation or no).
>
> Trip continued to ABC as planned and on to home. Congratulations offered
> for completing x-country solo. No mention of error by student or
> instructor.
>
> Suggestions solicited & greatly appreciated...

I'm surprised student wasn't taught/required to use flight following, which
would have terminated with a vector to the airport.
Of course, it'd still be possible to pick out the wrong one if they were in
the same general direction from the flght path.
I will say, good catch that he noticed runways didn't match. It's hard,
especially for a student, to shed blinders once a course of action is
determined.

Eric

[Steve Robertson]

File the violation on a NASA report and forget about it. But remember it.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer

Joe Johnson wrote:

> Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.
>
> Planning went fine. One long outbound leg (to satisfy the FARs) and two
> shorter inbound legs to fulfill the three landings requirement.
>
> Outbound leg: went great. Course maintained and all visual landmarks
> nailed, within a minute of expected time. Landed, got logbook signed, took
> off on 1st inbound leg.
>
> First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC); VOR on
> field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual checkpoints. Instead,
> approached another class D field nearby (call it XYZ). Not to make excuses,
> but ABC and XYZ actually have some geographic similarities: distance &
> direction from towns of about the same size, as well as similar relation to
> highways and bodies of water, etc). The visual checkpoints enroute were
> also close to each other. However, student ignored two key pieces of
> evidence that wrong field was being approached:
>
> --ABC tower reported no radar contact (why student continued approach to XYZ
> is therefore unfathomable).
> --VOR indicated progressive deviation from course (also not surprising).
>
> Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
> tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted, mistake
> acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered. (No mention either way of
> violation for busting the XYZ class D airspace. Student's main concern is
> actually to learn from this error, violation or no).
>
> Trip continued to ABC as planned and on to home. Congratulations offered
> for completing x-country solo. No mention of error by student or
> instructor.
>
> Suggestions solicited & greatly appreciated...

[Grandpa B.]

On one of my first dual XC flights (to New Ulm, MN), we were close to the
field. The instructor asked me if I had found it yet. I answered that I
*think* so -- if there's a water tower in the pattern! "Yep. That's it", he
replied. In actuality, the tower is outside a 'normal' pattern, but the
first time you see it, it seems a bit odd.

Huron, SD (HON) has a water tower off the departure end of their southbound
rwy, also. It's painted in a big checkerboard pattern, and is at least a
mile away, but is weird to have in the windshield at takeoff.

Jon B.

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think that recognizing airports is one of the most difficult things
> a student must do, especially grass fields. One time I was actually in
> the pattern to land on a vacant lot, thinking it was my home field.
> (Well, I was on the 45...) And always, it seemed to me, the instructor
> was saying in a rather worried tone: "Do you see the airport?" and of
> course I didn't.
>
> Then there comes the day when airports are the most obvious part of
> the landscape. They just leap out at you, especially asphalt runways.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Anyone]

Easy to happen to students on solo's. Happens to a lot of students. Learn
to use vor's to figure out where you are.



"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m...
> Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.
>
> Planning went fine. One long outbound leg (to satisfy the FARs) and two
> shorter inbound legs to fulfill the three landings requirement.
>
> Outbound leg: went great. Course maintained and all visual landmarks
> nailed, within a minute of expected time. Landed, got logbook signed,
took
> off on 1st inbound leg.
>
> First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC); VOR
on
> field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual checkpoints. Instead,
> approached another class D field nearby (call it XYZ). Not to make
excuses,
> but ABC and XYZ actually have some geographic similarities: distance &
> direction from towns of about the same size, as well as similar relation
to
> highways and bodies of water, etc). The visual checkpoints enroute were
> also close to each other. However, student ignored two key pieces of
> evidence that wrong field was being approached:
>
> --ABC tower reported no radar contact (why student continued approach to
XYZ
> is therefore unfathomable).
> --VOR indicated progressive deviation from course (also not surprising).
>
> Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
> tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted,
mistake
> acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered. (No mention either way of
> violation for busting the XYZ class D airspace. Student's main concern
is
> actually to learn from this error, violation or no).
>
> Trip continued to ABC as planned and on to home. Congratulations offered
> for completing x-country solo. No mention of error by student or
> instructor.
>
> Suggestions solicited & greatly appreciated...
>
>

[John T]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m
>
> First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC);
> VOR on field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual
> checkpoints. Instead, approached another class D field nearby (call
> it XYZ). Not to make excuses, but ABC and XYZ actually have some
> geographic similarities: distance & direction from towns of about the
> same size, as well as similar relation to highways and bodies of
> water, etc). The visual checkpoints enroute were also close to each
> other. However, student ignored two key pieces of evidence that
> wrong field was being approached:

Finding fields can be difficult - even with experienced pilots. Check out a
recent flight of my own:
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer/Flights.asp#031115 (Landing HGR)

Two pilots, me with about 300 hours (instrument rated) and the passenger
with at least 200 hours (instrument student), had difficulty picking out a
field with two intersecting asphalt runways. Both of us had been to that
field more than once in the relatively recent past. :)

I don't know any solid advice to offer the student. He obviously recognized
his error by realizing the different runways and that's the best method I
can suggest for recognizing *your* runway: Study the airport layout ahead of
time. I've done that on almost every flight to a new airport for just that
reason.

I'd also venture a guess that he'll be much more assertive in the future
when "his" tower tells him "negative contact". :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Robert M. Gary]

Sounds like you learned from it and that's what is important.
Sometimes its easy to convince yourself that you are at the waypoint
(or destination) you are expecting to find, often times before you
should be there. That is the reason we include ETE in the flight
planning for students. If you think you're there but you've only flown
1/2 the time of your ETE, use an extra critical eye.

[Robert M. Gary]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...

> Then there comes the day when airports are the most obvious part of
> the landscape. They just leap out at you, especially asphalt runways.

I just wish that time would come for traffic too. I still have times
when ATC calls out traffic that I never see. Makes you wonder about
the ones they don't call.

[Cub Driver]

>It's hard,
>especially for a student, to shed blinders once a course of action is
>determined.

Three of us sailed into New London (or perhaps it was New Haven) one
dark night in the days when cans were painted black, and we had a weak
flashlight. With one guy on the bow, we'd inch up to a nun or a can
and read it off, and in the cockpit a second guy would determine where
we were and where away we should head, and the third guy made it so.
After much sweating and swearing we got ourselves safe in the
anchorage.

Next morning we woke up to find ourselves in New Haven (or perhaps it
was New London).

After that exercise in making the world fit one's mental pattern, I
have tried to be more skeptical of the evidence.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Joe Johnson]

Many thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. If/when I get my
ticket, I'll be proud to join the group of able practitioners of the flying
art represented on these newsgroups. A few remarks:

To Harry Gordon: I appreciated the humor--I was pretty upset with myself at
the time.

To Cub Driver (Dan Ford): I liked the story about the approach on the 45 to
the vacant lot. Your sailing trip sounded a lot like my flying misadventure
(in fact, ABC=BDR, XYZ=HVN). My mind certainly tried to make the airport fit
my mental picture, the contrary evidence of my senses notwithstanding.

To Robert M. Gary: I've certainly tried to learn from it. It's all I've
thought about for 24hrs. Your point about ETE is well taken.

To Eric Miller: flight following was suggested, not required. I agree it
might have helped. The blinders were on all the way to the pattern at the
wrong airport. When they came off, it was quite a shock, since I'm actually
quite familiar with the city near XYZ. Suddenly I recognized every
lankmark, and couldn't believe what I'd done.

To Steve Robertson: I have a call in to my instructor about filing the NASA
form. It's already filled out. I understand the different senses of forget
and remember when you said, "...forget about it. But remember it."
Remember will be easy; forget will be harder, upset as I still am.

To Anyone: I was using VORs. Trouble was, I was so sure of where I
(thought I) was, I managed to ignore what they were telling me.

To John T: I like your videos. No visual/radar contact reported by my
intended tower should have been a red flag, for sure. Agreed, knowledge of
the runways was what ultimately broke the spell of being so sure I was in
the right place.

[Dave]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> Cub Driver > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Then there comes the day when airports are the most obvious part of
> > the landscape. They just leap out at you, especially asphalt runways.
>
> I just wish that time would come for traffic too. I still have times
> when ATC calls out traffic that I never see. Makes you wonder about
> the ones they don't call.

here in the UK the normal practice is to join the airfield overhead, descend
on the dead side and join the pattern via a cross wind leg over the runway
in use. There is nothing worse than hearing 4 or 5 pilots all calling in
about 5 miles out coming from different directions and all reaching the
overhead about the same time. Me, I just do a couple of orbits until I have
heard the last call "overhead, descending deadside" before entering the
fray.

Even worse, use of the radio is optional and we have a number of aircraft
using the airfield with no radio and they can anywhere and when you think
you are number 3 to land you find out by counting ahead that you are number
5. There is a certain adrenaline rush. The Mk1 eyeball become your best
piece of kit, I can assure you of that.

Dave

Politicians never lie, they only tell their truths.

[David Brooks]

"Dave" > wrote in message
...

> here in the UK the normal practice is to join the airfield overhead,
descend
> on the dead side and join the pattern via a cross wind leg over the runway
> in use.

I was just wondering something about that practice: it means basically that
the (little, noisy) airplanes are flying parallel to both sides of the
runway, although admittedly those on the dead side (flying upwind, right?)
are a little higher than those on downwind.

Around here I've noticed a lot of airfields have one-sided patterns,
presumably because there is something more noise-sensitive on the other
side. Bremerton recently converted from left pattern to east pattern,
although I don't know whether the reason was actually to keep the west side
quieter or because of some hazard. With planes descending on the dead side,
you don't have the option of keeping one side quiet all the time, right?

-- David Brooks

[Judah]

I'm not sure I can offer much in the way of advice. I think this kinda
thing happens periodically, and it's not the end of the world. Especially
(having read ahead) between BDR and HVN (and possibly GON, too)...

The one comment I would make is that the fact that they reported no radar
contact, IMHO, is not enough to justify cancelling the approach (or
anywhere near "unfathomable" as you describe). Had they said "Radar
Contact, 9 miles East" when you thought you were entering the pattern, I
might have been more inclined to ask for immediate help...

Mistakes happen. Those are the kinds of things that you learn from. No one
was hurt, and I'd bet you won't have any serious negative repurcussions to
your license...

The only thing I would have done differently, though is that I would have
told the instructor about the screw up. If nothing else, he might have
taken the time to review your planning and helped you learn from the
situation.



"Joe Johnson" > wrote in
m:

> Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.
>
> Planning went fine. One long outbound leg (to satisfy the FARs) and
> two shorter inbound legs to fulfill the three landings requirement.
>
> Outbound leg: went great. Course maintained and all visual landmarks
> nailed, within a minute of expected time. Landed, got logbook signed,
> took off on 1st inbound leg.
>
> First inbound leg was to a class D field close to home (call it ABC);
> VOR on field. Dialed in the ABC VOR and looked for visual checkpoints.
> Instead, approached another class D field nearby (call it XYZ). Not
> to make excuses, but ABC and XYZ actually have some geographic
> similarities: distance & direction from towns of about the same size,
> as well as similar relation to highways and bodies of water, etc). The
> visual checkpoints enroute were also close to each other. However,
> student ignored two key pieces of evidence that wrong field was being
> approached:
>
> --ABC tower reported no radar contact (why student continued approach
> to XYZ is therefore unfathomable).
> --VOR indicated progressive deviation from course (also not
> surprising).
>
> Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match).
> ABC tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted,
> mistake acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered. (No mention
> either way of violation for busting the XYZ class D airspace.
> Student's main concern is actually to learn from this error, violation
> or no).
>
> Trip continued to ABC as planned and on to home. Congratulations
> offered for completing x-country solo. No mention of error by student
> or instructor.
>
> Suggestions solicited & greatly appreciated...

[Harry Gordon]

>
> To Anyone: I was using VORs. Trouble was, I was so sure of where I
> (thought I) was, I managed to ignore what they were telling me.
>

You don't have to be a student to "pull that trick" :-(. I go so lost up in
WI a few weeks ago that I am still surprised that I found my ultimate
destination not to mention the airport I started from. And I did exactly
what you did - "I can't be where that VOR says I am. It must be wrong!" We
all learn, even after passing the checkride. Hang in there and learn from
your experience. You'll do fine (I hope I learned from mine - I will find
out in a few days). And thanks for your comment.

Harry
PP-ASEL

[Gerald Sylvester]

> To Eric Miller: flight following was suggested, not required. I agree it
> might have helped.

I went on my first solo XC last sunday. I was on flight following with
Norcal and Oakland Center. I ran unintentionally after also getting
a lost due to mixing up the 2 nav/comms. into some decreased visibilty
(probably around 3-5 mile visibilty). I asked for
a vector to the nearest airport. They knew where I was (you get
a unique squawk), my
altitude and I was a solo student pilot just by saying "request
vector to nearest airport due to weather." Within seconds
they gave me a vector. Literally maybe 20 seconds total between
the beginning of my radio call and the end of theirs.
Fortunately by the time they finished their read, I was through
the weather and I figured out my error and knew the right
way to STS. I reported "negative. I'm through the weather and just
figured out where I am. Will go direct to STS." From then on,
they spoke to me every 2 minutes babying me. No problem. That
is what I pay my tax dollars for.....basically a sort of insurance.
No need to identify myself, no wasted time trying to have them guess
where I was, no hogging up the radio when they are trying to deal
with United and American Airline heavies, etc. They point
out traffic to me almost all the time. They are literally
a second set of eyes. I'm literally afraid to fly around the
bay area without them. I don't understand why people would fly
around when it is available. Even for short hops, use them.

In your case, you could have said, "solo student pilot, unfamiliar,
am I X miles in this direction of the airport?" They would give you
vectors, would probably contact that tower and notify them of the problem.

Use them. They are your friend. Don't be afraid to talk to them
on the radio. You aren't the first student either. Only way to
learn is doing it. At first I was lost. Now I fly through
Class B (I got signed off on that), Norcal, Oakland Center, whatever
and I rarely have a problem with radio communications.

Gerald

[Joe Johnson]

> I can't be where that VOR says I am. It must be wrong!"

and the compass (must be wrong 'cause I'm descending),
and the heading indicator (must've precessed)...

The mind is very powerful when it thinks it's right, against all the
evidence. The painted numbers on the runways were hard to explain
away...that finally broke the spell!

[Joe Johnson]

Thanks Gerald. All points well taken. I'm training at a busy Class D field
on the fringe of Class B, so I'm very comfortable with busy controlled
airspace and radio communication. That wasn't the issue. I guess I thought
this flight was so easy, I didn't need the flight following. The terrain
was all familiar and conditions were as CAVU as CAVU gets (I could see stuff
I know was 40 miles away). In fact, in retrospect, I got fixated on the
wrong city and wrong airport from perhaps 20 miles away and ignored the
evidence that I was off course.

[Joe Johnson]

Thanks, Judah. Comments in line.

> I'm not sure I can offer much in the way of advice. I think this kinda
> thing happens periodically, and it's not the end of the world. Especially
> (having read ahead) between BDR and HVN (and possibly GON, too)...

My wife & I have both worked in New Haven in the past. I was approaching
HVN from the north, over the city. I was so sure I was approaching BDR, my
mind completely suppressed all the landmarks with which I was fiamiliar.
HVN also doesn't have characteristic candy stripe painted smokestack near
BDR. As soon as I realized the error, I could finally "see" the Q bridge,
the Q river, route 34 & I-91going north from I-95, Yale, etc. It was quite
a shock.

> The one comment I would make is that the fact that they reported no radar
> contact, IMHO, is not enough to justify cancelling the approach (or
> anywhere near "unfathomable" as you describe). Had they said "Radar
> Contact, 9 miles East" when you thought you were entering the pattern, I
> might have been more inclined to ask for immediate help...

Roger.

> The only thing I would have done differently, though is that I would have
> told the instructor about the screw up. If nothing else, he might have
> taken the time to review your planning and helped you learn from the
> situation.

It was dusk; he met me on the ramp, congratulated me, and said he had to
leave. I'm going to go over the NASA form with him today...

[Harry Gordon]

>
> and the compass (must be wrong 'cause I'm descending),
> and the heading indicator (must've precessed)...
>
> The mind is very powerful when it thinks it's right, against all the
> evidence. The painted numbers on the runways were hard to explain
> away...that finally broke the spell!
>

Joe, I even did that once (explain away the runway markings, that is). There
is nothing more "exciting" and "comforting" to your passenger than landing
at the wrong airport because "you knew exactly where you were" regardless of
runway markings or anything else!!!!! :-))) Fortunately, my passenger was
my wife and she thought it was funny and we had a great time anyway. I
guess I should explain. We have a lot of single runway, small airports in
our area. Two of them are about 10 miles apart and one has a 13/31 runway
and the other has a 12/30 runway. You can take it from there :-).

"Confession is great for the soul."

Harry

>

[Jay Honeck]

> Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
> tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted,
mistake
> acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered.

I believe you have described the scenario that explains why moving-map GPS
has taken over the cockpit.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Joe Johnson]

> I believe you have described the scenario that explains why moving-map GPS
> has taken over the cockpit.

Agreed, Jay. One of the reasons I was so upset was that conditions were as
CAVU as CAVU gets. The entire terrain beneath me was like a moving-map GPS!

BTW, as a lurker here while I've been working on my private, I've enjoyed
your contributions very much. I hope to be guest of yours some day!

[Roger Hamlett]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> > I believe you have described the scenario that explains why moving-map
GPS
> > has taken over the cockpit.
>
> Agreed, Jay. One of the reasons I was so upset was that conditions were
as
> CAVU as CAVU gets. The entire terrain beneath me was like a moving-map
GPS!
>
> BTW, as a lurker here while I've been working on my private, I've enjoyed
> your contributions very much. I hope to be guest of yours some day!
Funnily enough, really clear conditions, are when a lot of 'mistaken
location' events take place!.
The problem is I suspect that the good visibility, can encourage a false
sense of security. In worse conditions, there is a tendency to double check
yourself, and think 'am I sure', whereas in really good conditions, this can
tend to be forgotten...

Best Wishes

[Joe Johnson]

> Two of them are about 10 miles apart and one has a 13/31 runway
> and the other has a 12/30 runway. You can take it from there :-).

You only had a 10 degree difference. I had 30 degrees to play with;
otherwise, I probably would've landed too!

[Jay Honeck]

> Agreed, Jay. One of the reasons I was so upset was that conditions were
as
> CAVU as CAVU gets. The entire terrain beneath me was like a moving-map
GPS!

As someone else said, CAVU is when things can get especially dicey. It's
easy to relax a bit *too* much, and miss a waypoint or two...

Also, unless you're at 25,000 feet, it doesn't matter HOW clear it is -- you
don't get the "God's Eye View" of the world the way you do with GPS. With
our AvMap's huge color screen, and the feature that automatically zooms us
in as we get closer (until you literally have an airport diagram depicted,
with your position represented as a little airplane flying around the
airport!), it is literally impossible to get lost.

If I were you, my very next action would be to get on Ebay, and buy yourself
a nice, used GPS. They can be had quite cheaply, and it'll allow you to
relax a bit (I *know* you're going to be up-tight about this experience for
a while!) and concentrate on flying the plane.

> BTW, as a lurker here while I've been working on my private, I've enjoyed
> your contributions very much. I hope to be guest of yours some day!

Thanks, Joe -- we'll look forward to meeting you!

Keep pushing, and you'll be finished up before you know it. Getting my
ticket utterly changed my life -- it'll do the same for you! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Teacherjh]

>>
If I were you, my very next action would be to get on Ebay, and buy yourself
a nice, used GPS.
<<

Take the money you would have spent, and fly some more. Look out the window.
it's pretty, and it will save your bacon one day.

If you really want to use a GPS, get somebody else to fly (and pay) while you
ooh and ahh at the pretty screen and fiddle with the thumbwheels.

(gee, I'm beginning to sound like an old tart. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Jay Honeck]

> If you really want to use a GPS, get somebody else to fly (and pay) while
you
> ooh and ahh at the pretty screen and fiddle with the thumbwheels.
>
> (gee, I'm beginning to sound like an old tart. :)

THUMBWHEELS?

Man, you don't just *sound* like an old fart... ;-)

(Hey, don't they put pull-starters on these dad-blamed GPS's? And where in
tarnation is the choke on this new-fangled thang??)

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Judah]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in
. com:

>> The one comment I would make is that the fact that they reported no
>> radar contact, IMHO, is not enough to justify cancelling the approach
>> (or anywhere near "unfathomable" as you describe). Had they said
>> "Radar Contact, 9 miles East" when you thought you were entering the
>> pattern, I might have been more inclined to ask for immediate help...
>
> Roger.
>

The only reason I use the above example is because it actually happened to
me on my first night Cross Country. I was headed to Stewart (SWF), a Class
D, from HPN (White Plains) where I am based. Field in sight, called the
tower, and they instructed me to report entering a left downwind for Runway
9.

As I am coming up on the downwind, I call in - entering the midfield
downwind for 9. A few seconds later he asks me to ident. A few seconds
later he tells me he "Radar Contact, 9 miles east of the airport."

I'm looking at a runway now, figuring I'm about 2 miles out entering the
midfield downwind. After asking him to say again, I realize what's going
on... Orange County (MJG) is about 8 or 9 miles east of SWF. I'm setting up
for Runway 8 at Orange. Fortunately, it's not a controlled field, so there
was no issue of busting. Plus this was before 9/11, so it might not have
been a big deal even if it was.


But you want to know what the real kicker is?



My instructor was sitting in the right seat, had flown to both those fields
many times before, and his blinders were on just like mine were! This
flying stuff gets the best of all of us every now and then! :)

[Judah]

No. I was talking to SWF tower - a controlled field 9 miles east of MJG -
the uncontrolled field whose downwind I was entering...

I miswrote, tho - he would have called me 9 miles West of his field...

A Lieberman > wrote in :

> Judah wrote:
>
>> As I am coming up on the downwind, I call in - entering the midfield
>> downwind for 9. A few seconds later he asks me to ident. A few seconds
>> later he tells me he "Radar Contact, 9 miles east of the airport."
>>
>> I'm looking at a runway now, figuring I'm about 2 miles out entering
>> the midfield downwind. After asking him to say again, I realize what's
>> going on... Orange County (MJG) is about 8 or 9 miles east of SWF. I'm
>> setting up for Runway 8 at Orange. Fortunately, it's not a controlled
>> field,
>
> Huh? An UNCONTROLLED field has radar facilities???
>
> I don't have a sectional for this area, but is it possible you were
> talking to Center / Approach or Departure rather then MJG Unicom?
>
> Allen
>

[Joe Johnson]

MJG is west of SWF...

Were you at POU?

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> "Joe Johnson" > wrote in
> . com:
>
> The only reason I use the above example is because it actually happened to
> me on my first night Cross Country. I was headed to Stewart (SWF), a Class
> D, from HPN (White Plains) where I am based. Field in sight, called the
> tower, and they instructed me to report entering a left downwind for
Runway
> 9.
>
> As I am coming up on the downwind, I call in - entering the midfield
> downwind for 9. A few seconds later he asks me to ident. A few seconds
> later he tells me he "Radar Contact, 9 miles east of the airport."
>
> I'm looking at a runway now, figuring I'm about 2 miles out entering the
> midfield downwind. After asking him to say again, I realize what's going
> on... Orange County (MJG) is about 8 or 9 miles east of SWF. I'm setting
up
> for Runway 8 at Orange. Fortunately, it's not a controlled field, so there
> was no issue of busting. Plus this was before 9/11, so it might not have
> been a big deal even if it was.
>
>
> But you want to know what the real kicker is?
>
>
>
> My instructor was sitting in the right seat, had flown to both those
fields
> many times before, and his blinders were on just like mine were! This
> flying stuff gets the best of all of us every now and then! :)

[Joe Johnson]

Judah was talking to SWF.

> I don't have a sectional for this area, but is it possible you were
> talking to Center / Approach or Departure rather then MJG Unicom?
>
> Allen

[Judah]

A momentary brain cramp... I'm more certain that we were at Orange than I
am that he called us 9 miles East of the field... He probably called us 9
miles West of the field, and I was just having a moment of dyslexic
directional capability. Sometimes I even forget that trick about taking
your left hand and making an L.

:)


Anyway, the point was that student pilots aren't the only ones that make
those kinds of mistakes... :)


"Joe Johnson" > wrote in
. com:

> MJG is west of SWF...
>
> Were you at POU?
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Joe Johnson" > wrote in
>> . com:
>>
>> The only reason I use the above example is because it actually
>> happened to me on my first night Cross Country. I was headed to
>> Stewart (SWF), a Class D, from HPN (White Plains) where I am based.
>> Field in sight, called the tower, and they instructed me to report
>> entering a left downwind for Runway 9.
>>
>> As I am coming up on the downwind, I call in - entering the midfield
>> downwind for 9. A few seconds later he asks me to ident. A few seconds
>> later he tells me he "Radar Contact, 9 miles east of the airport."
>>
>> I'm looking at a runway now, figuring I'm about 2 miles out entering
>> the midfield downwind. After asking him to say again, I realize what's
>> going on... Orange County (MJG) is about 8 or 9 miles east of SWF. I'm
>> setting up for Runway 8 at Orange. Fortunately, it's not a controlled
>> field, so there was no issue of busting. Plus this was before 9/11, so
>> it might not have been a big deal even if it was.
>>
>>
>> But you want to know what the real kicker is?
>>
>>
>>
>> My instructor was sitting in the right seat, had flown to both those
>> fields many times before, and his blinders were on just like mine
>> were! This flying stuff gets the best of all of us every now and then!
>> :)
>
>
>

[A Lieberman]

Judah wrote:

> As I am coming up on the downwind, I call in - entering the midfield
> downwind for 9. A few seconds later he asks me to ident. A few seconds
> later he tells me he "Radar Contact, 9 miles east of the airport."
>
> I'm looking at a runway now, figuring I'm about 2 miles out entering the
> midfield downwind. After asking him to say again, I realize what's going
> on... Orange County (MJG) is about 8 or 9 miles east of SWF. I'm setting up
> for Runway 8 at Orange. Fortunately, it's not a controlled field,

Huh? An UNCONTROLLED field has radar facilities???

I don't have a sectional for this area, but is it possible you were
talking to Center / Approach or Departure rather then MJG Unicom?

Allen

[Joe Johnson]

Roger.

First time I was at SWF, I was impressed by those big transport planes (?
C-130).

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> Anyway, the point was that student pilots aren't the only ones that make
> those kinds of mistakes... :)

[Corrie]

True, Jay, but when the electricals fail, it's back to the MkI
eyeball, map, magnetic compass, and timepiece (you DO fly with watch
on, right?)

My first solo XC, I was on the second leg, looking out for the airport
- just SE of town, town's on the south side of a lake. Check the ET -
just about there, where the ^&T& is the field? The second hand ticks
over - I SHOULD be there NOW. Look out the side window (in a C-152)
and the runway is directly below. Made a believer out of me - plan
the flight, fly the plan.

Recently went out to do some grass-field work on the day after a snow
- even in the pattern the field was hard to see! (Yes, it had been
plowed.)

Corrie

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<8NGBb.496070$Tr4.1350042@attbi_s03>...
> > Mistake discovered near XYZ pattern (runways obviously didn't match). ABC
> > tower (still in radio contact) notified. Then XYZ tower contacted,
> mistake
> > acknowledged, and profuse apologies offered.
>
> I believe you have described the scenario that explains why moving-map GPS
> has taken over the cockpit.

[Jay Honeck]

> True, Jay, but when the electricals fail, it's back to the MkI
> eyeball, map, magnetic compass, and timepiece (you DO fly with watch
> on, right?)

Yep.

However, I also fly with TWO GPS's (both with battery back-ups), TWO VORs,
TWO Com radios, and a VOR/DME. I believe in the "belt and suspenders"
school of flying...

As Mary and I are fond of saying, if we ever get lost in Atlas (our plane),
we *deserve* to be lost! :-)

(BTW: In ten years of flying, I've experienced two complete electrical
failures -- both at night, both "pre-GPS", both in rental planes during my
first two years of flying.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michael]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote
> If I were you, my very next action would be to get on Ebay, and buy yourself
> a nice, used GPS. They can be had quite cheaply, and it'll allow you to
> relax a bit (I *know* you're going to be up-tight about this experience for
> a while!) and concentrate on flying the plane.

IMNSHO that's the worst possible advice. Joe, don't do it.

What happened is no big deal - file a NASA form if it makes you feel
better (they're free so no reason not to) but trust me, this isn't the
kind of thing the feds bust people for. Student pilot briefly gets
lost, but sorts out the problem and lands safely - talk about a
non-event. Yes, you inadvertently busted some airspace - no harm, no
foul. Part of the reason you go on solo XC is to get lost! It's a
great learning experience, and it sounds like you've learned a lot.

Virtually everyone I know got lost on a student solo XC flight, myself
included. Some triangulated with the VOR, some buzzed a water tower
to read the name of the town, and I even know one who landed in a
farmer's field to ask directions. With time, you get better. You
learn to pick out landmarks and runways out of the haze. You learn to
keep track of your position. And eventually, you just don't get lost
anymore unless you want to.

The reason for the solo XC requirement is to give you experience.
With the GPS, you wouldn't have had this experience - just the hours.
Learn to do without it - because it won't always be there.

I know a pilot who had to land in a field - she couldn't find the
airport after her GPS batteries died. Don't be her.

Michael

[John Galban]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<8YMBb.502876$Fm2.482609@attbi_s04>...
<snip>
> If I were you, my very next action would be to get on Ebay, and buy yourself
> a nice, used GPS. They can be had quite cheaply, and it'll allow you to
> relax a bit (I *know* you're going to be up-tight about this experience for
> a while!) and concentrate on flying the plane.

I wouldn't do that right away. Back in the pre-GPS days, learning
how to pick your destination airport out of the clutter was a
necessary part of training. Like general pilotage, it's a skill you
have to develop and practice. I had a few mix-ups like the OP, but
consider them valuable learning experiences. They helped me to develop
my cross checking skills so that I could verify my position more
positively.

I find that it's a skill that still comes in handy when flying to
airports that are not in the GPS database (I'm too lazy to enter them
manually).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Joe Johnson]

Thanks for the interesting perspective, Michael. Permission to stop the
self flagellation?

[Judah]

Yeah - I think they're C-130's. Once in the pattern one took off as we were
on downwind. It was quite a site. I am completely convinced that it took
off in less distance than I did in a Tampico, and at a speed that could
have been walking...


"Joe Johnson" > wrote in news:Op_Bb.5138$iF1.2189
@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com:

> Roger.
>
> First time I was at SWF, I was impressed by those big transport planes (?
> C-130).
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
>> <snip>
>> Anyway, the point was that student pilots aren't the only ones that make
>> those kinds of mistakes... :)
>
>
>
>

[Tom]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I wouldn't do that right away. Back in the pre-GPS days, learning
> how to pick your destination airport out of the clutter was a
> necessary part of training. Like general pilotage, it's a skill you
> have to develop and practice. I had a few mix-ups like the OP, but
> consider them valuable learning experiences. They helped me to develop
> my cross checking skills so that I could verify my position more
> positively.

Hell, airline pilots have landed at the wrong airport next door.

[Teacherjh]

>>
However, I also fly with TWO GPS's (both with battery back-ups), TWO VORs,
TWO Com radios, and a VOR/DME. I believe in the "belt and suspenders"
school of flying...
<<

not much more than that and you'll be a passenger, not a pilot!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Jay Honeck]

> I wouldn't do that right away. Back in the pre-GPS days, learning
> how to pick your destination airport out of the clutter was a
> necessary part of training.

And it still is. He won't be permitted to USE the GPS on his cross country
flights -- but just knowing that it's in the bag as a back-up, in case he
gets lost again, will make a HUGE difference in his self-confidence.

I'm betting he never needs it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:<8YMBb.502876$Fm2.482609@attbi_s04>...
> <snip>
> > If I were you, my very next action would be to get on Ebay, and buy
yourself
> > a nice, used GPS. They can be had quite cheaply, and it'll allow you to
> > relax a bit (I *know* you're going to be up-tight about this experience
for
> > a while!) and concentrate on flying the plane.
>
Like general pilotage, it's a skill you
> have to develop and practice. I had a few mix-ups like the OP, but
> consider them valuable learning experiences. They helped me to develop
> my cross checking skills so that I could verify my position more
> positively.
>
> I find that it's a skill that still comes in handy when flying to
> airports that are not in the GPS database (I'm too lazy to enter them
> manually).
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Tom]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:zE9Cb.504865$HS4.3915024@attbi_s01...
> > I wouldn't do that right away. Back in the pre-GPS days, learning
> > how to pick your destination airport out of the clutter was a
> > necessary part of training.
>
> And it still is. He won't be permitted to USE the GPS on his cross country
> flights -- but just knowing that it's in the bag as a back-up, in case he
> gets lost again, will make a HUGE difference in his self-confidence.
>
> I'm betting he never needs it.

Or just find a navaid near the airport and read the radial and distance. If
one can't translate/find it from there, they should maybe not be up there!?!

[Jay Honeck]

> However, I also fly with TWO GPS's (both with battery back-ups), TWO VORs,
> TWO Com radios, and a VOR/DME. I believe in the "belt and suspenders"
> school of flying...
> <<
>
> not much more than that and you'll be a passenger, not a pilot!

Oh, did I tell you that my autopilot is slaved to the heading bug on my DG?
I check my course occasionally while I'm reading the sports page... ;-)

(Heck, for some people I know, even THAT is a "hardship" -- cuz it won't fly
the approach for me!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:40:00 GMT, "Joe Johnson" >
wrote:

>Scenario: student pilot on x-country solo. About 50hrs.

On my CHECKRIDE, no less, I was taking off from Lebanon (NH) and heard
an ongoing conversation with an approaching Cirrus who claimed to be
in the pattern for Lebanon. He wasn't in sight though and the tower
kept saying that he probably was attempting to land at Claremont,
which is south of Lebanon by about 15/20 miles or so, rather than
Lebanon. HUGE difference between the two. Claremont has one of it's
runway's X'd off and the other one is narrow and short, compared to
Lebanon. This person probably was in the area for the first time, but
a 3,000 feet long 50 feet wide runway sure doesn't look like 5,500
feet 100 feet wide runway. The tower explained several times that he
wasn't in sight and likely was approaching Claremont as his radio
signal was pretty weak, to no avail.

The guy apparently made the approach right to the threshold, possibly
even touched down, before taking off again after realizing he really
wasn't at Lebanon.

We were in-flight heading towards Claremont when the tower asked the
guy where he was now and did he still want to land at Lebanon. A very
very sheepish Cirrus pilot replied that he was at 3,500 and that he
did still want to land at Lebanon. The tower then asked us if we were
on frequency and had heard the exchanges as he knew the examiner and I
were in that vicinity of the sky. I replied that we had been
monitoring and that we were under his altitude and did not have him in
sight. Never did see him, neither did the examiner.

Poor guy, all that glass cockpit and still couldn't find his
destination the first time. Maybe he didn't have the GPS initialized.

Corky Scott

[John T]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in
message
>
> Poor guy, all that glass cockpit and still couldn't find his
> destination the first time. Maybe he didn't have the GPS initialized.

The glass doesn't always help. I was flying safety pilot for a flying buddy
who was practicing an approach using a C172 with a moving map GPS with
multi-function display (I think it was about a 4-inch screen) that showed
the sectional graphic in addition to airspace and all the usual GPS
paraphernalia. I don't know how it could possibly do more to improve
situational awareness without physically moving your finger across the map.

The approach we were on called for us to intercept the localizer outbound
(in an easterly direction) from the north for a procedure turn (on the north
side of the course). He passed through the localizer and paralleled it
outbound (putting us south of the course). Then he started a turn to the
right (putting us farther south of where he wanted to be). I clarified his
intentions and he realized that he had lost situational awareness.

My point is that it *will* happen to all of us sooner or later and no amount
of technology will prevent it. If it can happen to this CFII friend of mine
using a large screen moving map with sectional imagery, it can certainly
happen to my own 300-hour self.

Granted, we didn't actually enter the pattern at the wrong airport. He did
at least have the correct localizer... :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Joe Johnson]

Hey! I resemble that!

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...

> Granted, we didn't actually enter the pattern at the wrong airport.

[gross_arrow]

since a lot of this thread is relating other "lost" stories....

coupla months ago i signed off a pilot to take his commercial
check-ride. he was concerned about the maneuvers (particularly
lazy-8's), but was doing a good job, so i signed him off. this
guy has ~2000 hours, ifr-rated, probably about 1500 of his 2000
are x/c, very experienced, and a good stick.

well, he busted his first checkride -- on _pilotage_. the d.e. had
him plan a x/c just like the private. well, between the time he
got his briefing & the time they actually departed, a front had
passed, with an attendant wind change (enough to swap ends
on the runway they were using.) he made a "guesstimate" of
the wind effect, and over-corrected. on his early checkpoint,
he confidently pointed out the town with the n/s highway on
the east side, the railroad track on the south side, and the
airport on the northeast side. the examiner said, "that's fine,
but that's not xxxx. sorry, you bust." (the pilot passed his
retest the following week.)

i include this to show that the phenomenon of identifying the
wrong airport is not unique to student pilots (although i guess
this guy was a commercial student). i should ammend that to
say "not unique to pre-private student pilots."

(i confess i had not checked his pilotage ability, because i have
known him for about a decade, and i know his abilities. who
would have thought he would screw up pilotage on a commercial
ride?)

hth --

g_a

[Model Flyer]

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> "Corky Scott" > wrote in
> message

> The glass doesn't always help. I was flying safety pilot for a
flying buddy
> who was practicing an approach using a C172 with a moving map GPS
with
> multi-function display (I think it was about a 4-inch screen) that
showed
> the sectional graphic in addition to airspace and all the usual GPS
> paraphernalia. I don't know how it could possibly do more to
improve
> situational awareness without physically moving your finger across
the map.
>

The friend who I do most of my passenger flying with uses a GPS for
almost everything and when returning to our field we find it very
difficult to find the strip. Even when passing over the field it's
rather difficult to pick out from all the other green fields of the
same size that abound in the SE of Ireland. As an experiment, we
decided to use the large road from a very prominent village to locate
the field, we found it much more easily than with the GPS, in fact
we'll use it all the time now.
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)






> The approach we were on called for us to intercept the localizer
outbound
> (in an easterly direction) from the north for a procedure turn (on
the north
> side of the course). He passed through the localizer and
paralleled it
> outbound (putting us south of the course). Then he started a turn
to the
> right (putting us farther south of where he wanted to be). I
clarified his
> intentions and he realized that he had lost situational awareness.
>
> My point is that it *will* happen to all of us sooner or later and
no amount
> of technology will prevent it. If it can happen to this CFII
friend of mine
> using a large screen moving map with sectional imagery, it can
certainly
> happen to my own 300-hour self.
>
> Granted, we didn't actually enter the pattern at the wrong airport.
He did
> at least have the correct localizer... :)
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
> __________
>
>
>