EJECT!

[Dean Wilkinson]

Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.

http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg

[Aardvark]

Dean Wilkinson wrote:
> Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
>
> http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg
WOW!

[Jon Kraus]

He was really close to the ground when he bailed out. Is there a minimum
altitude to eject? Doesn't look like it. I guess it is better to nurse
some broken bones then die in the wreckage. Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

Dean Wilkinson wrote:

>Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
>
>http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg
>
>

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Jon Kraus wrote:
> He was really close to the ground when he bailed out. Is there a minimum
> altitude to eject? Doesn't look like it. I guess it is better to nurse
> some broken bones then die in the wreckage. Thanks.

I believe the modern Martin-Baker ejector seats are 'zero zero' capable
(i.e. you can eject at zero feet, zero airspeed) and have been for some
time.

Minor name dropping: the Ronaldsway Aircraft Company, just 5 miles from
where I live, makes these for MB. They have some amazing pictures on
their walls inside the plant. My favorite is the one which (from the
photographer's point of view) must have been the result of serendipity:
a nicely framed (photography wise, not what it's mounted in!) picture of
a man on a tractor, looking around behind him in awe. He's looking
around in awe becase an English Electric Lightning (50s era twin jet
interceptor) is pointing _straight down_, maybe at 300 feet or so, with
the gear down, and the pilot ejecting, his parachute just starting to
open.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Wolfgang K.]

any more background info available?
regards
wolfgang, loww, vie, austria

[Viperdoc]

Actually, the seat in the F-16 is an Aces II, not a Martin Maker. While it
is zero-zero, this does not count for a downward flight vector. As I recall,
the parameters for insuring a good chute are around 2000 feet agl in
controlled flight, and 8-10,000 feet in uncontrolled flight. Also, the most
common cause of fatal accidents is due to delayed ejection.

I have around 60 hours in the back of F-16's as a flight surgeon, and our
recurrent training always emphasized these numbers.

[Roger Hamlett]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> He was really close to the ground when he bailed out. Is there a minimum
> altitude to eject? Doesn't look like it. I guess it is better to nurse
> some broken bones then die in the wreckage. Thanks.
Most modern seats, are 'zero zero' rated. This means you can eject at zero
feet, and zero mph. However this is degraded when you are descending fast.
What amazes me more, is how low some designs will allow you to eject
inverted!... Some now have an 'any atitude' ejection ability once you are in
excess of a couple of thousand feet. Given the speeds you could be doing,
and the different directions possible, this is really scarey.

Best Wishes

> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>
> Dean Wilkinson wrote:
>
> >Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
> >
> >http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg

[EDR]

IIRC... the Mig-29 crash at the Paris Airshow, years back, the crew
ejected with the aircraft 90-or-more degrees to the horizon. The seats
blasted down and out initially and flew to a vertically upright
position before releasing the crew.

[Rick Durden]

Jon,

Aircraft with ejection seats have an "ejection envelope" that is
defined by speed, altitude, rate of descent and attitude of the
aircraft. The very first ejection seats had to be fired at something
on the order of 5,000 feet AGL, with no descent rate and a pretty much
level attitude. Some were really odd, such as the initial design of
the F-104, which fired the pilot downward and killed the greatest test
pilot in U.S. history, Ivan Kinchloe (the Society of Experimental Test
Pilots named its top award after him), when he had to eject shortly
after takeoff...he tried to roll inverted before doing so but did not
have the time. The zero/zero seats will allow ejection from an
airplane sitting on the ground (there is a film of an early Martin
Baker seat sitting in an English meadow, a man dressed in top hat and
tails sits down, straps in and pulls the handles...pow...the chute
opens, he lands, rolls, stands up and walks off, minus top hat). The
Russians developed a seat that would turn and go up even if the
aircraft were in an attitude in which the pilot was fired on a
downward trajectory initially, and proved its worth in a stunning
ejection at the Paris Air Show several years back. Even with the best
seat, if the aircraft is low and still descending rapidly, the
ejection may not be a success.

All the best,
Rick

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> He was really close to the ground when he bailed out. Is there a minimum
> altitude to eject? Doesn't look like it. I guess it is better to nurse
> some broken bones then die in the wreckage. Thanks.
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>
> Dean Wilkinson wrote:
>
> >Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
> >
> >http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg
> >
> >

[Ralf S.]

Hi Wolfgang,

I don't remember correctly. It came on German TV yesterday evening. If I am
right was somewhere in the US on an air show back in November. It was kept
secret by the US government until yesterday, they said in the TV.

Best Regards
Ralf


"Wolfgang K." > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> any more background info available?
> regards
> wolfgang, loww, vie, austria
>
>

[Nathan Young]

(Dean Wilkinson) wrote in message >...
> Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
>
> http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg

I am amazed at how calm the pilot appears throughout the loop. I've
only flown aerobatics once, but my head was on a swivel - constantly
trying to figure out which way was up.

What caused the accident? I would be interested to hear additional
details. Obviously the pilot got too low on the back side of the
loop, but what caused this?
-Inadequate height before starting the loop
-Inadequate pull during the loop
-Stall

-Nathan

[AES/newspost]

In article >,
Dylan Smith > wrote:

> I believe the modern Martin-Baker ejector seats are 'zero zero' capable
> (i.e. you can eject at zero feet, zero airspeed) and have been for some
> time.

My younger brother, an AF jet mechanic some decades ago, told me of an
accidental/unintentional ejection *inside a hanger* -- pretty horrific
mangling of the mechanic who triggered it.

I suppose this has probably happened more than once . . .

[John T]

"Ralf S." > wrote in message

>
> If I am right was somewhere in the US on an air show back in
> November. It was kept secret by the US government until yesterday,
> they said in the TV.

"They kept it secret"???

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=chris+stricklin+crash
- or -
http://tinyurl.com/ylov

There was nothing secret about it - especially considering it happened in
front of an air show crowd reported to be 85,000 in number.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Ralf S." > said:
>I don't remember correctly. It came on German TV yesterday evening. If I am
>right was somewhere in the US on an air show back in November. It was kept
>secret by the US government until yesterday, they said in the TV.

Are you saying the crash was kept secret? Or the video? Because it's
pretty hard to keep something secret when it happens at an airshow in
front of thousands of spectators. Even if it's in Idaho.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
To ensure privacy and data integrity this message has been encrypted
using dual rounds of ROT-13 encryption.

[Ralf S.]

They onlykept serect the video. I guess because it was taken from inside or
so. I don't know it excactly.
German TV is bad they don't tell you much. Mainly they wanted to show some
"action".

Ralf




"Paul Tomblin" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> In a previous article, "Ralf S." > said:
> >I don't remember correctly. It came on German TV yesterday evening. If I
am
> >right was somewhere in the US on an air show back in November. It was
kept
> >secret by the US government until yesterday, they said in the TV.
>
> Are you saying the crash was kept secret? Or the video? Because it's
> pretty hard to keep something secret when it happens at an airshow in
> front of thousands of spectators. Even if it's in Idaho.
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> To ensure privacy and data integrity this message has been encrypted
> using dual rounds of ROT-13 encryption.

[John T]

"AES/newspost" > wrote in message

>
> My younger brother, an AF jet mechanic some decades ago, told me of an
> accidental/unintentional ejection *inside a hanger* -- pretty horrific
> mangling of the mechanic who triggered it.

Kinda related: I had a cousin die while trying to safe an ejection seat.
Apparently, he was on the ladder leaning over the edge of the cockpit to
engage the safety. Either as he moved to step down or while he was working
in the cockpit (nobody is quite sure on that point), he somehow engaged the
canopy.

It was a closed casket funeral.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Jeff Franks]

> Also, the most
> common cause of fatal accidents is due to delayed ejection.

Er, doesn't that go without saying? ;-)

[Tobias Schnell]

On 9 Dec 2003 19:56:32 -0800, (Dean
Wilkinson) wrote:

>Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
>http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg

Impressive. I'd like to see the expression on his face, though.

Tobias

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-12-10 07:08:37 -0800, (Nathan Young) said:

> I am amazed at how calm the pilot appears throughout the loop.

It probably wasn't the first time he had done it.

> I've only flown aerobatics once, but my head was on a swivel - constantly
> trying to figure out which way was up.

Moving your head around while pulling a couple of Gs is a sure way to get
yourself messed up.

> What caused the accident? I would be interested to hear additional
> details.

Being as this as a military thing, I doubt we'll ever hear the whole story unless
the pilot decides to tell it. I'd like to know, too, because looking at other pictures
and video, the airplane was pointed above the horizon and the engine was
producing lots of thrust. Its downward momentum, though may have been too
much for the altitude available to stop it and get it moving the other way. (That's
purely conjecture on my part, of course, based on what I could find.)

It's interesting watching the last two seconds or so of that video when you can see
that the decision has been made. Frame by frame, it looks very deliberate and
methodical. In real time, it happened very quickly!

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Viperdoc]

No, not necessarily. The decision to eject may have to be made pretty
quickly and decisevely. If you spend too much time trying a restart or
troubleshooting you could be out of the envelope for a safe ejection. Even
though the Aces II has a great track record, it can be a easy to delay
ejection over water, at night, etc.

As an example, we had a flap light come on while enroute to a range carrying
live bombs. The pilot dropped the bombs over the range, and then we briefed
the emergency procedures in case the plane departed controlled flight. The
area surrounding the home base was very desolate, and certainly not very
inviting. Landing in a river or lake would probably not have been
survivable, and the prospect of a parachute landing in a heavily forested
area was not too appealing either. Luckily, everything worked out fine on
landing, although the emergency vehicles following us down the runway was
pretty impressive.

[Viperdoc]

At least flying acro if you don't look around at the horizons there's no way
of knowing whether the wings are level. The only way to insure this it to
check both wing tips relative to the horizon by looking at each, as well as
over your shoulder on verticals, or straight up on a 45 downline, etc .

Pulling g's during these maneuvers does not "mess you up".

[EDR]

Is there supposed to be a soundtrack accompanying the video clip?

[Dean Wilkinson]

Now wait just a minute there Paul! Idaho may not be the biggest state
or one of the best known states, but we aren't at the far reaches of
the universe eiher! ;]

I was at the airshow and watched the ejection and subsequent crash in
person. Seeing the cockpit video was interesting because it provided
a different perspective from what I had seen...

Dean Wilkinson


> Are you saying the crash was kept secret? Or the video? Because it's
> pretty hard to keep something secret when it happens at an airshow in
> front of thousands of spectators. Even if it's in Idaho.

[Robert M. Gary]

I've heard that the modern seats should do 0/0 (zero airspeed and zero
altitude). The trick is getting enough altitude for the chute to
deploy correctly. That's how my dad died. He ejected from his A-7 on
the ground after the tail hook caught and then broke. His chute didn't
fully deploy before he hit the ground. The plane blew up after hitting
the rocks.

>
> >Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
> >
> >http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg
> >
> >

[Brian Burger]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Dean Wilkinson wrote:

> Now wait just a minute there Paul! Idaho may not be the biggest state
> or one of the best known states, but we aren't at the far reaches of
> the universe eiher! ;]
>
> I was at the airshow and watched the ejection and subsequent crash in
> person. Seeing the cockpit video was interesting because it provided
> a different perspective from what I had seen...

Does anyone know if this was a 'live' video feed being trasmitted out of
the cockpit in realtime, or a recording that was later recovered from the
wreckage?

Just curious as to how wired up the display teams are...

Brian.


>
> Dean Wilkinson
>
>
> > Are you saying the crash was kept secret? Or the video? Because it's
> > pretty hard to keep something secret when it happens at an airshow in
> > front of thousands of spectators. Even if it's in Idaho.
>

[Morgans]

"Nathan Young" > wrote > What caused the
accident? I would be interested to hear additional
> details. Obviously the pilot got too low on the back side of the
> loop, but what caused this?
> -Inadequate height before starting the loop
> -Inadequate pull during the loop
> -Stall
>
> -Nathan

One possibility is bird FOD, or other catestrophic engine failure. One
video showed a shower of sparks, as the thrust was brought back up at the
bottom of the loop.

--
Jim in NC

[Andrew Rowley]

(Rick Durden) wrote:
>The zero/zero seats will allow ejection from an
>airplane sitting on the ground (there is a film of an early Martin
>Baker seat sitting in an English meadow, a man dressed in top hat and
>tails sits down, straps in and pulls the handles...pow...the chute
>opens, he lands, rolls, stands up and walks off, minus top hat).

I read an amazing book quite a few years back called "The Man in the
Hot Seat" about Doddy Hay, who was the "test pilot" when Martin Baker
were developing their ejection seats.

There's a job I wouldn't be applying for in a hurry.

[Big John]

Any word on results of accident investigation?

I saw on TV the Thunderbirds flying a five ship formation (vs their
normal 6 ship) in their last show of the season at Nellis.

Nothing has been published in AW & ST since accident.

I won't try to second guess the report.

Wonder whose camera was in cockpit (and who released the 'film')? Have
never heard about an 'official' camera in cockpits of Thunderbirds?

Big John


On 9 Dec 2003 19:56:32 -0800, (Dean
Wilkinson) wrote:

>Thunderbird F-16 cockpit video of ejection at Mountain Home AFB crash.
>
>http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/eject.mpg

[Jim Fisher]

"Dean Wilkinson" > wrote in message
m...
> Now wait just a minute there Paul! Idaho may not be the biggest state
> or one of the best known states, but we aren't at the far reaches of
> the universe eiher! ;]

Dean,

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Scientists have recently uncovered the exact
location of Idaho as well as Iowa. I am not making this up.

Check out the following map of the Universe and see for yourself:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~ssoccer/universe.jpeg

--
Jim Fisher

[Peter Duniho]

"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
...
> I'm afraid you are mistaken. Scientists have recently uncovered the exact
> location of Idaho as well as Iowa. I am not making this up.
>
> Check out the following map of the Universe and see for yourself:
>
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~ssoccer/universe.jpeg

Oh, give me a break. Any idiot can tell that the labeled states in that map
are NOT in fact Iowa or Idaho. Sheesh...what kind of fools do you take us
for? They bear the unmistakable shapes of Texas and Alaska.

[John Galban]

EDR > wrote in message >...
> Is there supposed to be a soundtrack accompanying the video clip?

Not necessary. 99 out of 100 similar events will have the exact
same dialog in the preceeding seconds. "Oh sh*t!"

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jim Fisher]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> Is there supposed to be a soundtrack accompanying the video clip?

I found the following transcript on the 'Net:

"Mooooooooooooooomeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

--
Jim Fisher

[John Clear]

In article >,
Big John > wrote:
>Wonder whose camera was in cockpit (and who released the 'film')? Have
>never heard about an 'official' camera in cockpits of Thunderbirds?

At Salinas they had in-cockpit video up on a jumbotron screen.
There were Thunderbirds ground crew standing near the jumbotron
pointing microwave recievers at the planes, so it looks like the
video is USAF provided, and not a media camera.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

[Big John]

John

Tnx.

I haven't been to the local Airshow here in Houston (Ellington) since
my feet and legs went bad (dead nerves) so I can't stand and walk very
good or far so haven't seen any current things like that nor has it
been carried on local TV that I've seen. Got my glasses after cataract
surgery and finally a set that I can stop playing Wiley Post so may be
able to get some more hours with my buddy?

I'm sure the word will come out but maybe not for a year as they
sometimes take that long to finish the investigation and the official
investigation is not released to public. It's for flying safety and
not liability. If there is a second investigation with sworn testimony
and lawyers etc., the results of that one is releasable to public. I
doubt if one like that will be held and no one was killed or injured
and pieces all landed on GVT property. If nothing else, someone at
Nellis will get the word out one of these days..

If pilot (forget his name) is not finishing his three year tour with
group this year and doesn't show up flying next believe one can assume
he's burnt toast and will carry with him for life :o(

Big John

All Monday morning quarter backing.


On 15 Dec 2003 14:11:12 -0800, (John Clear) wrote:

>In article >,
>Big John > wrote:
>>Wonder whose camera was in cockpit (and who released the 'film')? Have
>>never heard about an 'official' camera in cockpits of Thunderbirds?
>
>At Salinas they had in-cockpit video up on a jumbotron screen.
>There were Thunderbirds ground crew standing near the jumbotron
>pointing microwave recievers at the planes, so it looks like the
>video is USAF provided, and not a media camera.
>
>John

[Morgans]

"Big John" > wrote

>
> If pilot (forget his name) is not finishing his three year tour with
> group this year and doesn't show up flying next believe one can assume
> he's burnt toast and will carry with him for life :o(
>
> Big John

Or the ejection has blown out his back?
--
Jim in NC