Re: Liberals Ignore The Wright Brothers

[Andrew Gideon]

Liberals HATE America wrote:

> Alas, Orville and Wilbur Wright are today pigeon-holed as "dead white
> males" whom we are supposed to ignore, if not deplore.

The author is sadly misinformed. I couldn't care less about "white" or
"male". However, "dead" is a Bad Thing. I certainly expend a serious
amount of effort to avoid this label myself, and I never take advice given
to me by people to whom this label applies...at least advice provided since
the label's application.

In fact, it can be safely stated that I avoid any conversation at all with
people to whom this label applies. If I were to see one of these people
walking along the street, I'd be sure to walk on the other side - or
perhaps accelerate in the opposite direction.

Does that make me a liberal?

- Andrew

[Tom]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Liberals HATE America wrote:
>
> > Alas, Orville and Wilbur Wright are today pigeon-holed as "dead white
> > males" whom we are supposed to ignore, if not deplore.
>
> The author is sadly misinformed. I couldn't care less about "white" or
> "male". However, "dead" is a Bad Thing. I certainly expend a serious
> amount of effort to avoid this label myself, and I never take advice given
> to me by people to whom this label applies...at least advice provided
since
> the label's application.
>
> In fact, it can be safely stated that I avoid any conversation at all with
> people to whom this label applies. If I were to see one of these people
> walking along the street, I'd be sure to walk on the other side - or
> perhaps accelerate in the opposite direction.
>
> Does that make me a liberal?
>

Your previous statements do not support your current claim.

As for someone being mistaken; between a genius like Sowell and a
dingleberry like yourself, I have to vote for Sowell.

[Andrew Gideon]

Tom wrote:

> Your previous statements do not support your current claim.

I've made previous statements which indicate to you that I speak to dead
people? Interesting. Scary, perhaps, but interesting.

- Andrew

[Jay Honeck]

> > Alas, Orville and Wilbur Wright are today pigeon-holed as "dead white
> > males" whom we are supposed to ignore, if not deplore.

An adjunct to this theory: Today, while Christmas shopping for my kids,
nephews & nieces, I was amazed and saddened to find not a SINGLE toy
airplane for sale in K-Mart's expanded toy section.

Well, they DID have a single, lonely (but nifty) radio-controlled plane for
sale, but that was *it*. No World War II fighters, no modern jets, not
even an airport play-set for toddlers! Given that the importance of this
year, I would have expected at least one or two "Wright Brothers" toys.

Heck, we couldn't even find the usually ubiquitous little die-cast toys...

Not that K-Mart is indicative of the entire marketplace, but IMHO this
doesn't bode well for the future of general aviation. When kids stop
playing with airplanes, they stop dreaming about flying... :-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Liberals HATE America wrote:
>
>
> The author is sadly misinformed. I couldn't care less about "white" or
> "male". However, "dead" is a Bad Thing. I certainly expend a serious
> amount of effort to avoid this label myself, and I never take advice given
> to me by people to whom this label applies...at least advice provided
since
> the label's application.
>
> In fact, it can be safely stated that I avoid any conversation at all with
> people to whom this label applies. If I were to see one of these people
> walking along the street, I'd be sure to walk on the other side - or
> perhaps accelerate in the opposite direction.
>
> Does that make me a liberal?
>
> - Andrew
>

[Rob Perkins]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:47:08 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> > Alas, Orville and Wilbur Wright are today pigeon-holed as "dead white
>> > males" whom we are supposed to ignore, if not deplore.
>
>An adjunct to this theory: Today, while Christmas shopping for my kids,
>nephews & nieces, I was amazed and saddened to find not a SINGLE toy
>airplane for sale in K-Mart's expanded toy section.

Go to Target. The Kool Toyz line has a set of 'em.

Rob

[Andrew Gideon]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Well, they DID have a single, lonely (but nifty) radio-controlled plane
> for
> sale, but that was *it*. No World War II fighters, no modern jets, not
> even an airport play-set for toddlers! Given that the importance of this
> year, I would have expected at least one or two "Wright Brothers" toys.

It's not the stores; it's you. You're too late <grin>.

We got for our son a "Little People" airport set recently. The store (Toys
R Us, I think) had a rich selection of aviation-related tools from which to
choose.

But the cool stuff always goes first, Jay.

Or, maybe it's KMart. Perhaps they can no longer afford to stock the
popular stuff.

Whatever it was...the store we visited was tough only for the breadth of
choice. Ah...and the fact that I have to share <laugh>.

- Andrew

[vincent p. norris]

> When kids stop playing with airplanes, they stop dreaming about flying... :-(

Jay, I think it's the other way round: When kids stop dreaming about
flying, they stop playing with airplanes.

Kids play with toys that already interest them, not vice versa.

Like it or not, "history marches on." Aviation is not as romantic as
it was when I was a kid. Pilots no longer wear helmet, goggles, and a
silk scarf. People no longer rush out of their homes to watch
airplanes fly over, as they did when I was a kid.

Youngsters today have no idea who Lindbergh was, or Jimmy Doolittle,
or even Wrong Way Corrigan. The Derring-do exploits of aviators are no
longer on the front pages of newspapers. Why should kids be
interested in aviation?

vince norris

[Wizard of Draws]

vincent p. norris wrote:
>
> Why should kids be
> interested in aviation?
>

Because it's magic.

Modern planes are even more magic than those of the Wright brothers.
They looked so light and delicate, it was easy to see the relationship
between a child's kite and the larger flying machines. Of course they
could fly.

But now? Hundreds of tons of metal suspended miles above the earth with
nothing to hold it up? Traveling at speeds faster than the earth can
rotate beneath it?
How about a plane that can fly around the world on one tank of gas?

You get the idea.
Magic.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

"Cartoons with a Touch of Magic"
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Mutts]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:47:08 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>An adjunct to this theory: Today, while Christmas shopping for my kids,
>nephews & nieces, I was amazed and saddened to find not a SINGLE toy
>airplane for sale in K-Mart's expanded toy section.
>

Walmart has lots of stuff, if its not sold out. Huge P-47 and Cobra
helicopter, very accurate. Lots of little aircraft. Kaybee has little
wright flyers as well. The hard stuff to find are Cessna and Piper
toys :(

[Earl Grieda]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:g8PBb.494967$HS4.3807870@attbi_s01...

>
> Not that K-Mart is indicative of the entire marketplace, but IMHO this
> doesn't bode well for the future of general aviation. When kids stop
> playing with airplanes, they stop dreaming about flying... :-(
> --

Actually, its when kids stop reading they stop dreaming about flying. Toys
R Irrelvant.

Earl G.

[Cub Driver]

>The author is sadly misinformed. I couldn't care less about "white" or
>"male". However, "dead" is a Bad Thing. I certainly expend a serious
>amount of effort to avoid this label myself,

You do realize, Andrew, that this means your face will never be on a
postage stamp? Gotta be dead for that to happen.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Youngsters today have no idea who Lindbergh was, or Jimmy Doolittle,
>or even Wrong Way Corrigan

Vince, I am pleased that someone else remembers Corrigan.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Judah]

At some point in relatively recent history, many things that we currently
take for granted were Magic...

The Light Bulb
The Telephone
The Car
The Computer
The Internet
Christmas



I think for most people nowadays, there isn't much Magic. Nowadays it's
always about money. There isn't even much visionary Sci-Fi to lead us to
our next dream... We've even got the Cell-Phone as a Star Trek
Communicator...


At least for most people, anyway. I still enjoy the magic of flying...
And even some other things... Although I have become something of a
pragmatist - or maybe even a cyncic. (Could you tell?)

Maybe we just need some George Orwell meets Gene Roddenberry meets George
Lucas style visionaries to come up with the next world-wide fantasy that
might be achievable in the next 50 years.

And then we need a good leader to declare it the mission...

Wizard of Draws > wrote in
:

> vincent p. norris wrote:
>>
>> Why should kids be
>> interested in aviation?
>>
>
> Because it's magic.
>
> Modern planes are even more magic than those of the Wright brothers.
> They looked so light and delicate, it was easy to see the relationship
> between a child's kite and the larger flying machines. Of course they
> could fly.
>
> But now? Hundreds of tons of metal suspended miles above the earth with
> nothing to hold it up? Traveling at speeds faster than the earth can
> rotate beneath it?
> How about a plane that can fly around the world on one tank of gas?
>
> You get the idea.
> Magic.

[Andrew Gideon]

Cub Driver wrote:

>
>>The author is sadly misinformed. I couldn't care less about "white" or
>>"male". However, "dead" is a Bad Thing. I certainly expend a serious
>>amount of effort to avoid this label myself,
>
> You do realize, Andrew, that this means your face will never be on a
> postage stamp? Gotta be dead for that to happen.

Hmm. Is the post office wall a fair replacement?

<Laugh>

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Earl Grieda wrote:

> Actually, its when kids stop reading they stop dreaming about flying.
> Toys R Irrelvant.

Reading is certainly important. But my 15-month-old son doesn't read yet.
He does, though, play with numerous aviation-related toys, and does look up
and (sometimes) say "zoom" when airplanes fly overhead.

It's never too early.

- Andrew

[GregR]

Wizard of Draws wrote:

> Because it's magic.

Thank you - took the words right out of my mouth. :-)

When I'm talking about flying to non-pilots, I tell them that you can
explain all the science and physics to me that you want to, but it doesn't
matter - when the airplane breaks free of the runway and takes flight, it's
pure magic.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :-)

--

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

CA/IFR/BGI - KVNY

[This space for rent - inquire within]

[Captain Wubba]

Mutts > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:47:08 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
> >An adjunct to this theory: Today, while Christmas shopping for my kids,
> >nephews & nieces, I was amazed and saddened to find not a SINGLE toy
> >airplane for sale in K-Mart's expanded toy section.
> >
>
> Walmart has lots of stuff, if its not sold out. Huge P-47 and Cobra
> helicopter, very accurate. Lots of little aircraft. Kaybee has little
> wright flyers as well. The hard stuff to find are Cessna and Piper
> toys :(

I had no trouble finding a *very* realistic model of my Beech
Musketeer. Exact in every detail. It sat on the lowet shelf, because
it couldn't climb any higher, and it took 7 hours to get from the
shelf to the checkout register.

Cap

[Snowbird]

vincent p. norris > wrote in message >...
> Jay, I think it's the other way round: When kids stop dreaming about
> flying, they stop playing with airplanes.

> Kids play with toys that already interest them, not vice versa.

Well, yes and no. Given a choice, kids play with toys that interest
them, in ways which interest them, but a kid who might be interested
in airplanes won't play w/ 'em if they don't have 'em.

> Pilots no longer wear helmet, goggles, and a
> silk scarf.

They don't? DAMN! Now I gotta rework my Christmas list :(!

Sydney (OK, I admit I haven't seen any silk scarves, but the
helmet and googles seem fairly common)

[Snowbird]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<g8PBb.494967$HS4.3807870@attbi_s01>...
> An adjunct to this theory: Today, while Christmas shopping for my kids,
> nephews & nieces, I was amazed and saddened to find not a SINGLE toy
> airplane for sale in K-Mart's expanded toy section.

Well, what can I say?

We've done well w/ toy planes other places -- Walmart, Target,
Walgreens and hey -- I found some neat little glueless-assembly
model planes for $1 apiece at Deals. My daughter promptly painted
hers pink and purple but hey -- pink and purple planes still fly!

And here's my annual plug, continuing a tradition started by
Kelly Rhodes.

If you donate to Toys for Tots or a similar organization (and
if you don't, why not?) consider buying some airplane toys to
donate.

Best,
Sydney

[M. Tettnanger]

"Earl Grieda" > wrote...
> Actually, its when kids stop reading they stop dreaming about flying. Toys
> R Irrelvant.

That's certainly part of the problem.

Also consider this "How To Enjoy Flying" guide,
as demonstrated by the average person on an airline
flight:

1. There's nothing interesting to see outside. The
Sierra Nevadas are boring (you even feel this way
driving by car and visiting "approved" tourist
destinations). Close the windowshades!

2. When presented with the option of an aerial view
of New York City at night or a magazine, choose the
magazine. Close the windowshade so you don't get
distracted by the dazzling light.

3. When Corky Romano or Dumb & Dumber is shown on
the viewscreen, always pay attention to the film.

4. During dull parts of the flight, listen to your
portable CD or MP3 player. Not because it helps
pass time, but because you're unaware that it's
a dull part of the flight.

5. When the cockpit door is wide open and you're
boarding or debarking, avoid peering inside. There's
nothing relevant in there, and you wouldn't
understand it anyway. It's ok to look and make
sure there's no beer cans, however.

6. When asked what kind of airplane you flew on, make
sure you can't remember. For bonus points, be sure
that you don't even remember the airline.

Mark

[Jay Honeck]

> 6. When asked what kind of airplane you flew on, make
> sure you can't remember. For bonus points, be sure
> that you don't even remember the airline.

Wait a minute now -- no bonus points should be awarded for *that*!

Heck, I can tell you every type of airliner I've ever flown in -- but
certainly not every airline I've ever used.

To me, the only thing cool about airline travel nowadays is the equipment
they use. Otherwise, they're all in a race to the bottom, to see who can
provide the least service with the worst attitude.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John R. Copeland]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message =
news:8A4Cb.502867$HS4.3881620@attbi_s01...
>=20
> Heck, I can tell you every type of airliner I've ever flown in -- but
> certainly not every airline I've ever used.
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Honeck
>=20

Hah! My obsessed son-in-law can tell you the tail number of most =
aircraft he's flown on.
---JRC---

[Michael]

vincent p. norris > wrote
> Like it or not, "history marches on." Aviation is not as romantic as
> it was when I was a kid. Pilots no longer wear helmet, goggles, and a
> silk scarf.

Why not? Those things are still there, and still available to us.
I've worn the helmet, goggles, and silk scarf, and I've looped and
rolled an open cockpit biplane over the countryside. So could you.
For what that plane cost, you couldn't buy a half-decent C-172, and
the operating cost wasn't any higher. No, the plane wasn't as safe,
comfortable, or easy to fly as the Cessna - but the romance of
aviation does not come from safety, comfort, or ease of operation.

Personally, I think the reason so many kids have lost interest in
aviation is that, in a futile attempt to make it safe, we've squeezed
the life out of it.

Michael

[Mutts]

Flying has become routine of course as far as airlines. Also its
very hard to see out of the window, IF you get a window
seat,NOT over the wing, not to mention the funky angles you
have to hold your neck to see sometimes when the window is
not aligned with the seat. Over the pacific ocean at night,
I could barely see stars though those windows.
Kinda scary too for folks to want to peek into
the cockpit since 911. Even a little joke can
cause a huge ruckus. That I think hurts things.
The captain cant have a kid come up to the cockpit for
5 minutes during the flight?

Pre-911 I was able to pass a note up to the Captain
of a Quantas 747 and got the jumpseat for approach
and landing to Brisbane. It might be a loooong time
before I can do that again. Im so glad I had the chance.
But as private pilots we can change ALL that for
people. Just take up anyone who wants to go. The view
alone is such a drastic difference.
Involve them in the process, looking for traffic,
make a radio call maybe, I let them fly the plane
a little while, Pitch, Yaw and Roll are easily
demonstrated :) I have recently taken to plotting
the course from the GPS on a chart and printing it
for them to see exactly where they had flown.
Give an old chart away after the flight.
I have flown lots of friends from work and one
may even learn to fly soon.

Some younger people are more impressed with the
military flying, but you can tell them even military
pilots need to fly a Cessna or Piper or what have you
if they want to take friends or family sightseeing.
People who love aviation are there, Wings channel is
dedicated to flight afterall. Airshow attendance is
good. Miramar and Nellis were packed when I went
this year. I still see kids there with their toys playing airplane.
But you know what was missing? Very few
local flying clubs had decent displays. Maybe some flyers
held down by a paperweight in front of a club plane.
I think more effort there would help. Big banners
"LEARN TO FLY" or Win a Sight Seeing Trip. General
Aviation would benefit by some simple good advertising
to let people know its do-able. The costs are what they
are but its still within the average Jane or Joes reach.
You just have to sacrifice sometimes, maybe no brand new
car. Ive been driving mine 10 years.
Almost all my passengers had not been up in a "little"
airplane before. Every one of them has been impressed
with it and many wanted to go again.

[John Galban]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >Youngsters today have no idea who Lindbergh was, or Jimmy Doolittle,
> >or even Wrong Way Corrigan
>
> Vince, I am pleased that someone else remembers Corrigan.
>

Who doesn't remember Wrong-way Corrigan? As a student pilot in the
pre-GPS days I could always point to Corrigan's (supposed) wrong way
flight as an example navigation that turned out even worse than some
of my student exploits.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Maule Driver]

"Judah" > > At some point in relatively recent history,
many things that we currently
> take for granted were Magic...
>
> The Light Bulb
> The Telephone
> The Car
> The Computer
> The Internet
> Christmas

That's just life...

> I think for most people nowadays, there isn't much Magic. Nowadays it's
> always about money. There isn't even much visionary Sci-Fi to lead us to
> our next dream... We've even got the Cell-Phone as a Star Trek
> Communicator...

....ut that's overly cynical

> At least for most people, anyway. I still enjoy the magic of flying...
> And even some other things... Although I have become something of a
> pragmatist - or maybe even a cyncic. (Could you tell?)
>
I enjoy it too... and I think you are just getting older. I know that for
sure.

I watched "Master and Commander" the other night and fantasized about how
magical sailing and sailing ships must have been in previous centuries.
Sort of like space flight in the last one. The magic of open ocean sailing
is still there but so is thousands of other pursuits. We just have some
many damn options available to so damn many people. It's great! .

[Judah]

Yeah, you're right. But I can still be cynical if I really want to! :)

"Maule Driver" > wrote in
. com:

> "Judah" > > At some point in relatively recent
> history, many things that we currently
>> take for granted were Magic...
>>
>> The Light Bulb
>> The Telephone
>> The Car
>> The Computer
>> The Internet
>> Christmas
>
> That's just life...
>
>> I think for most people nowadays, there isn't much Magic. Nowadays
>> it's always about money. There isn't even much visionary Sci-Fi to
>> lead us to our next dream... We've even got the Cell-Phone as a Star
>> Trek Communicator...
>
> ...ut that's overly cynical
>
>> At least for most people, anyway. I still enjoy the magic of flying...
>> And even some other things... Although I have become something of a
>> pragmatist - or maybe even a cyncic. (Could you tell?)
>>
> I enjoy it too... and I think you are just getting older. I know that
> for sure.
>
> I watched "Master and Commander" the other night and fantasized about
> how magical sailing and sailing ships must have been in previous
> centuries. Sort of like space flight in the last one. The magic of
> open ocean sailing is still there but so is thousands of other
> pursuits. We just have some many damn options available to so damn
> many people. It's great! .
>
>

[vincent p. norris]

>>Youngsters today have no idea who Lindbergh was, or Jimmy Doolittle,
>>or even Wrong Way Corrigan
>
>Vince, I am pleased that someone else remembers Corrigan.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

Oh, very well! It was big news at the time, and I was already crazy
about airplanes. I was 10 years old, and had just begun to build
airplane models.

My first model was, guess what! A Curtiss Robin!

(For the younger posters, that was the airplane Corrigan flew across
the Atlantic.)

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

> Pilots no longer wear helmet, goggles, and a
>> silk scarf.
>
>Why not? Those things are still there, and still available to us.
>I've worn the helmet, goggles, and silk scarf, and I've looped and
>rolled an open cockpit biplane over the countryside.

Me too! But not nearly often enough. Once in awhile, in a friend's
Starduster.

But I learned to do that in the navy, in an SNJ, more than 50 years
ago. I have a fair number of flying friends, younger than I, and not
one of them has ever rolled or looped or spun an airplane, or flown in
an open cocpit, or worn helmet and goggles; and only one has ever
flown a taildragger (he bought a C-140, a couple of years ago.)

vince norris

[Thomas Borchert]

Judah,

> I think for most people nowadays, there isn't much Magic.
>

Careful with statements like that. At the end of the 19th century,
common wisdom was that everything inventable had been invented. Things
have changed quite a bit since then...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Cub Driver]

>I watched "Master and Commander" the other night and fantasized about how
>magical sailing and sailing ships must have been in previous centuries.

After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed on
weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
remains.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Flying has become routine of course as far as airlines. Also its
>very hard to see out of the window,

You just made the day for the marketing folks at Boeing. One of their
Eureka! moments was to make the windows larger on the 7E7.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Jay Honeck]

> After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed on
> weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
> and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
> remains.

My thoughts, exactly.

There was very little "magic" in any human endeavor, prior to the 20th
century, unless you were wealthy.

And there was certainly not any to be found as a ship's mate, from
everything I've read.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Maule Driver]

Life on land may not have been all that much more magical for the common
person. Life tended to be brutal and short for most - city or countryside.
You were either steering or being ground up by the wheels - and most people
were simply fodder for the few.

Speaking of movies, I was dragged out to see the "Last Samurai". Can't
really recommend it except as escapist, fantasy violence. But I can
recommend a related book, James Bradley's "Flyboys" "A true story of
courage". Related? The book starts with a sweeping historical look at
Samurai culture and fuedal Japan which it then brings into the 20th Century
and WWII. Bush senior is one of the flyboys that is shot down. A very
detailed and seemingly well researched account of what happened to Dive
bomber pilots shot down at an island next to Iwo Jima. Great battlefield
account with a lot of stuff you've never read before and a surprising
ending.

Great book. Made the "Last Samurai" viewing worth it.... almost.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:O%jCb.513413$Tr4.1431059@attbi_s03...
> > After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed on
> > weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
> > and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
> > remains.
>
> My thoughts, exactly.
>
> There was very little "magic" in any human endeavor, prior to the 20th
> century, unless you were wealthy.
>
> And there was certainly not any to be found as a ship's mate, from
> everything I've read.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Maule Driver wrote:
>
> But I can recommend a related book, James Bradley's "Flyboys" "A true story of
> courage".

I thought it was great except for two glaring errors. In one sentence he talks
about the tendency of the big radials to "stall without warning" and in another
he talks about the WWII carrier decks being very dangerous places with whirling
props,..., jet fuel,... Jet fuel? In 1943?

Those errors make me wonder about some of the other facts he presents. The book
does contain an excellent bibliography, however, so I don't think he's made
anything up, and I hope to find time to check out some of his references.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

[Mutts]

">After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed
>on
>weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
>and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
>remains."

And the FAA is any different??? :P


Some things are worth it.
You could get to see things no other human had seen yet.
I guess it depends what ships you were on and wether it
was by choice!
James Cook and the HMS Endeavour, vessels of discovery
sounds pretty cool. Werent everybodys teeth falling out back
then anyways? Cook didnt survive his last voyage if I recall.

Oh boy look out.....Must post Capt. Kirk quotes. Cant... resist,
must.......post......the captain!

"but I must point out that the possibilities, the potential for
knowledge and advancement is equally great. Risk. Risk is our
business. That's what this starship is all about. That's why we're
aboard her."
-- Captain James T. Kirk,


On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:47:09 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>I watched "Master and Commander" the other night and fantasized about how
>>magical sailing and sailing ships must have been in previous centuries.
>
>After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed on
>weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
>and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
>remains.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email:
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[rip]

Mutts wrote:
> ">After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed
>
>>on
>>weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
>>and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
>>remains."
>
>
> And the FAA is any different??? :P
>
>
> Some things are worth it.
> You could get to see things no other human had seen yet.
> I guess it depends what ships you were on and wether it
> was by choice!
> James Cook and the HMS Endeavour, vessels of discovery
> sounds pretty cool. Werent everybodys teeth falling out back
> then anyways? Cook didnt survive his last voyage if I recall.
>
> Oh boy look out.....Must post Capt. Kirk quotes. Cant... resist,
> must.......post......the captain!
>
> "but I must point out that the possibilities, the potential for
> knowledge and advancement is equally great. Risk. Risk is our
> business. That's what this starship is all about. That's why we're
> aboard her."
> -- Captain James T. Kirk,
>


Which brings up the question of "what's the most dangerous job in the
galaxy?"
Answer: Having a non-speaking role on a Star Trek "away-team".

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Wizard of Draws wrote:
> But now? Hundreds of tons of metal suspended miles above the earth with
> nothing to hold it up? Traveling at speeds faster than the earth can
> rotate beneath it?

Well, until a couple of weeks ago that happened, but then Concorde was
retired. I don't think any other supersonic aircraft weighs as much as
Concorde.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Cub Driver wrote:
> After you've been shanghaied, lashed by the cat o' nine tails, fed on
> weevils and biscuits, sent aloft in a gale, sodomized by the bosun,
> and had your teeth fall out from scurvy, precious little of that magic
> remains.

I always thought it amusing that a supposedly insulting term for the
British is "Limey", when it actually reflects smartness - the vitamin C
that prevented British sailors from suffering from scurvy.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[John T]

"rip" > wrote in message
om
>
> Which brings up the question of "what's the most dangerous job in the
> galaxy?"
> Answer: Having a non-speaking role on a Star Trek "away-team".

Career advice: Don't wear a red shirt on a Star Trek set.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Mutts]

Another thought came to mind, how will _our_ times be judged hundreds
of years from now?


"Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can
you imagine that?"
- Captain Picard

and gliders? oh my god! neandertals!

[Maule Driver]

"G.R. Patterson III"
> Maule Driver wrote:
> >
> > But I can recommend a related book, James Bradley's "Flyboys" "A true
story of
> > courage".
>
> I thought it was great except for two glaring errors. In one sentence he
talks
> about the tendency of the big radials to "stall without warning" and in
another
> he talks about the WWII carrier decks being very dangerous places with
whirling
> props,..., jet fuel,... Jet fuel? In 1943?
>
> Those errors make me wonder about some of the other facts he presents. The
book
> does contain an excellent bibliography, however, so I don't think he's
made
> anything up, and I hope to find time to check out some of his references.
>
You know, I think I'll do a fresh post about Flyboys in rap. I'm sick of
the subject line on this one and the presumed jerk behind it. Anyway,
please repost your point there if you like. That's why I'm always careful
about not presuming high levels of accuracy in something that just happens
to appear in hardback as non-fiction.

[Judah]

I don't think that everything inventable has been invented at all. I just
think that there just aren't any really good, original dreams out there
these days. I think many of our modern inventions were inspired by artists
who dreamed up what the future would be like - Van-Gough, Asimov,
Roddenberry, etc. And I haven't seen any truly inspirational, original
ideas from the artists these days. All the sci-fi is the same, and all of
the new ideas are just small modifications of the old ones.

Between the lack of dreams, the lack of investors (ever since the dot-com
crash), and the idea that anyone who is a dreamer must have ADD and should
be put on medication, it seems to me that dreaming and inventing is "out"
right now. It has inspired me to believe that society in the US has to
change before any really ground-breaking inventions show up here...

Of course, things can always change overnight...


Thomas Borchert > wrote in
:

> Judah,
>
>> I think for most people nowadays, there isn't much Magic.
>>
>
> Careful with statements like that. At the end of the 19th century,
> common wisdom was that everything inventable had been invented. Things
> have changed quite a bit since then...
>

[Dan Truesdell]

I started taking my daughter to the airport before she was one. (It was
on the way to mom's work, sort of.) She went for her first ride at 3,
and now, at 6, gets mad if she can't go with me when I go flying. (She
was quite perturbed that I didn't take her to Oshkosh this year.) She
has already requested that I teach her to fly when she's eight. In
addition, she has read many books on airplanes and space, and can tell
you way more about the subjects than I could have imagined at that age.
Of course, she has the benefit of having a dad that flies. But, as
the EAA passes it's 1,000,000 young eagle, I wonder how many of those
kids have now got the yearning to explore flying and airplanes.

Dan (a happily flying dad!)

Earl Grieda wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:g8PBb.494967$HS4.3807870@attbi_s01...
>
>
>>Not that K-Mart is indicative of the entire marketplace, but IMHO this
>>doesn't bode well for the future of general aviation. When kids stop
>>playing with airplanes, they stop dreaming about flying... :-(
>>--
>
>
> Actually, its when kids stop reading they stop dreaming about flying. Toys
> R Irrelvant.
>
> Earl G.
>
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Cub Driver]

>I thought it was great except for two glaring errors. In one sentence he talks
>about the tendency of the big radials to "stall without warning" and in another
>he talks about the WWII carrier decks being very dangerous places with whirling
>props,..., jet fuel,... Jet fuel? In 1943?

I saw this remarked upon elsewhere--the bit about jet fuel, I mean.
Which leads me to think it's the major howler in the book. One
suspects that it was inserted by a 23-year-old editor.

I had an editor of Air & Space (Air & Space!) ask me what "high
explosives" were.

As for the big radials, well, perhaps they did have a tendency to
stall--which an aviator would describe as quitting. To most
non-pilots, stalling exactly means an engine stopping without warning.

>Those errors make me wonder about some of the other facts he presents. The book
>does contain an excellent bibliography, however, so I don't think he's made
>anything up, and I hope to find time to check out some of his references.

Please post your thoughts. I haven't bought the book; I'm still
inclined to.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Some things are worth it.

I forgot to mention: lack of female companionship for months or years
at a time.

And poxy bar-flies at the end of the voyage.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> I saw this remarked upon elsewhere--the bit about jet fuel, I mean.
> Which leads me to think it's the major howler in the book. One
> suspects that it was inserted by a 23-year-old editor.

I suspected this as well.

> As for the big radials, well, perhaps they did have a tendency to
> stall--which an aviator would describe as quitting. To most
> non-pilots, stalling exactly means an engine stopping without warning.

Well, I didn't. Stalling is an engine quitting because you loaded it down too
much without advancing the throttle. It is a very specific type of quitting, and
it never happens without warning. This is the case even for non-pilots; go to
your mechanic and tell him the engine stalled and it's an entirely different
ball game than if you tell him the engine died. Unless you get a prop strike,
it's impossible to stall an aircraft engine.

> Please post your thoughts. I haven't bought the book; I'm still
> inclined to.

Like Corky, I've read a good deal about WWII in the last 40 years. It's been
sort of a hobby of mine. I'm not as good as Corky is at dredging up info I read
or remembering where I read it. I also haven't read as much about the Pacific
theatre as perhaps I should. I'm also not familiar with the events in that part
of the world around the end of the 19th century. Still, there were a surprising
number of items in that book of which I had not heard before.

As a result, I was surprised by some of the things presented in the book, but
am not qualified to say they are false. Since it is well written and the author
is reasonable about those things with which I am familiar, I would be surprised
to find any falsehoods with the rest. As I said, the book has an extensive
bibliography. The author has also footnoted things well, which should make it
easy for me to take a look at more primary sources. In my copious free time.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hmmmmm... That's interesting...."

[Cub Driver]

>This is the case even for non-pilots; go to
>your mechanic and tell him the engine stalled and it's an entirely different
>ball game than if you tell him the engine died

Everyone I know, and that would include the mechanics (perhaps they
are only humoring us idiots), who goes out on a cold morning and has
the engine start and then quit on him, would grouse that it had
stalled.

Among the dictionary definitions of the verb intransitive is: "to come
to a standstill (as from mired wheels or engine failure)". Indeed,
there are only two v.i. definitions, and that one is the first. The
second is "to experience a stall in flying." Since that is obviously
not the case in an automotive engine, the only dictionary
interpretation of "my engine stalled" is that it quit running.

So it's not just a regional thing.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[AES/newspost]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:

> Everyone I know, and that would include the mechanics (perhaps they
> are only humoring us idiots), who goes out on a cold morning and has
> the engine start and then quit on him, would grouse that it had
> stalled.


As someone who's not a mechanic, but who got his first drivers license
in 1945 and was brought up in snow country (Michigan), my understanding
has always been that "stalling" (of an auto engine anyway) refers to the
engine quitting *when a load is first put on it*. (You can't stall an
auto with the gearshift in neutral.)

Stalling was a lot more likely to happen, at least before computer
controlled autos came along, when the engine was just started and still
cold; but cold (and perhaps misadjusted) engines were also prone to
stumble, sputter, and quit on their own (while the driver pushed and
yanked on the choke knob) without any load applied, just out of
orneriness.

[vincent p. norris]

>I thought it was great except for two glaring errors. In one sentence he talks
>about the tendency of the big radials to "stall without warning"

I was too young for WW II, but a few years later I spent some 800
hours sitting between two PW R-2800s, the "big radial" of WW II, and
I never had one "stall," or quit for any reason other than I shut it
down.

I did have one "blow a jug" but it I could still get 36 inches of MP
and 2400 RPM, which we considered "climbing power."

Some, such as in P-47s on strafing missions, took a lot more damage
than that but kept running.

A hell of a good engine!

vince norris

[Cub Driver]

>Stalling was a lot more likely to happen, at least before computer
>controlled autos came along, when the engine was just started and still
>cold; but cold (and perhaps misadjusted) engines were also prone to
>stumble, sputter, and quit on their own (while the driver pushed and
>yanked on the choke knob) without any load applied, just out of
>orneriness.

Right. And that's what I meant by a stall. (It still does happen,
though without the choke knob dance.) The engine stalled, Ma! Of
course it did. Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 10th Edition agrees.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com