Good feeling landing / 200th hour

[Yossarian]

How did you go through all your training without ever stopping at a
controlled airport?

Let's hear about that engine failure.

"A Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
> On my 200th hour, I had my best feel good landing. Been interesting to
> look back on my log book and see how much I have learned / experienced
> in the past 2+ years / 200 hours. Summary as shown below
>
> 09/29/2001 First flight!
> 06/30/2002 First Solo
> 09/29/2002 First Duel Cross Country
> 10/14/2002 First Solo Cross Country
> 01/26/2003 Passed Check Ride
> 01/27/2003 First passenger taken
> 02/02/2003 Checkout ride in my Beech Sundowner
> 02/24/2003 Night landing, no landing light
> 02/23/2003 First passenger taken on a cross country trip
> 03/09/2003 First night cross country solo
> 04/11/2003 First full stop at a controlled airport
> 04/18/2003 Caught VFR on top, diverted to another airport
> 04/19/2003 2nd Diversion due to strong headwinds for fuel
> 05/18/2003 Vacuum pump failure during night flight
> 07/19/2003 Engine failure - declared inflight emergency to ATC
> 09/22/2003 Test flight for engine break in
> 11/12/2003 Electrical fire (no flames, just burning wires and smoke)
> 12/11/2003 Runway closure, landed on taxiway
>
> Today's landing reflected the quality training I have received at MBO.
> I was returning from a lunch with a friend of mine at MCB (McComb MS).
> There was a NOTAM for runway closure at MBO (Madison MS) that was to
> expire 21Z. I arrived back at 20:30Z, and JAN (Jackson MS) approach
> told me the NOTAM was still in effect. I said no problem, I will go the
> practice area and fly for a little bit and wait for the runway to open.
> At 21:30Z, I reported to approach that I wanted to return to MBO.
> Approach did not have any information on the NOTAM, so I said I would
> report back to him. I over flew the airport, saw the X's on the runway,
> called into MBO and asked how much longer. The runway was being
> repainted. They didn't know, but landing and take offs were being done
> on the taxiway, so I report back to Jackson and requested to return to
> the practice area. I flew for another 1/2 hour and then returned back
> to MBO. Runway was still closed, so I decided OK, I will make the
> attempt to land on the taxiway. I had first and foremost, "if it ain't
> right, go around", so I was ready to fire wall it just about the entire
> approach. Taxiways look like toothpicks on approach! Wind sock was
> pointed at a 45 degree angle to the runway, but the winds were not
> strong, maybe 5 knots, so I knew crosswind component would be minimal.
> I trimmed the plane on downwind, and slowed to my approach speed on
> downwind, so all I had to do was really focus on my ground track. My
> tracking was real good, holding it all the way to the ground. Mains
> touched, and I wouldn't doubt if the nose wheel landed right on the taxi
> line. This was by far one of the most feel good landings I ever had.
> The biggest thing about this, is that due to the narrowness of the
> taxiway, I did't have the edges to really use for reference, since my
> wings blocked my view, so I used the seat of my pants, and used power to
> control my descent down the ground. This was the first time I could
> really feel me flying by the seat of my pants.
>
> Needless to say, everytime I fly, I feel like it is my first flight!
> Thanks to all who take the time to share their expertise on these
> newsgroups to newbies like me!
>
> Allen

[Paul Folbrecht]

Hear, hear!

> Let's hear about that engine failure.

[tony roberts]

> Thought I would share my first emergency....

Hi Allen
That's a great account - thanks for sharing it.
We both have approx the same number of hours.
My question is different to most of the ones you will receive.
How much extra hassle do you now have getting insurance, since departing
the end of the runway? Or didn't you mention it.

After an engine failure AND an electrical fire in 200 hours, I would
probably be looking at doing something safer like BASE jumping :)

Thanks

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[A Lieberman]

On my 200th hour, I had my best feel good landing. Been interesting to
look back on my log book and see how much I have learned / experienced
in the past 2+ years / 200 hours. Summary as shown below

09/29/2001 First flight!
06/30/2002 First Solo
09/29/2002 First Duel Cross Country
10/14/2002 First Solo Cross Country
01/26/2003 Passed Check Ride
01/27/2003 First passenger taken
02/02/2003 Checkout ride in my Beech Sundowner
02/24/2003 Night landing, no landing light
02/23/2003 First passenger taken on a cross country trip
03/09/2003 First night cross country solo
04/11/2003 First full stop at a controlled airport
04/18/2003 Caught VFR on top, diverted to another airport
04/19/2003 2nd Diversion due to strong headwinds for fuel
05/18/2003 Vacuum pump failure during night flight
07/19/2003 Engine failure - declared inflight emergency to ATC
09/22/2003 Test flight for engine break in
11/12/2003 Electrical fire (no flames, just burning wires and smoke)
12/11/2003 Runway closure, landed on taxiway

Today's landing reflected the quality training I have received at MBO.
I was returning from a lunch with a friend of mine at MCB (McComb MS).
There was a NOTAM for runway closure at MBO (Madison MS) that was to
expire 21Z. I arrived back at 20:30Z, and JAN (Jackson MS) approach
told me the NOTAM was still in effect. I said no problem, I will go the
practice area and fly for a little bit and wait for the runway to open.
At 21:30Z, I reported to approach that I wanted to return to MBO.
Approach did not have any information on the NOTAM, so I said I would
report back to him. I over flew the airport, saw the X's on the runway,
called into MBO and asked how much longer. The runway was being
repainted. They didn't know, but landing and take offs were being done
on the taxiway, so I report back to Jackson and requested to return to
the practice area. I flew for another 1/2 hour and then returned back
to MBO. Runway was still closed, so I decided OK, I will make the
attempt to land on the taxiway. I had first and foremost, "if it ain't
right, go around", so I was ready to fire wall it just about the entire
approach. Taxiways look like toothpicks on approach! Wind sock was
pointed at a 45 degree angle to the runway, but the winds were not
strong, maybe 5 knots, so I knew crosswind component would be minimal.
I trimmed the plane on downwind, and slowed to my approach speed on
downwind, so all I had to do was really focus on my ground track. My
tracking was real good, holding it all the way to the ground. Mains
touched, and I wouldn't doubt if the nose wheel landed right on the taxi
line. This was by far one of the most feel good landings I ever had.
The biggest thing about this, is that due to the narrowness of the
taxiway, I did't have the edges to really use for reference, since my
wings blocked my view, so I used the seat of my pants, and used power to
control my descent down the ground. This was the first time I could
really feel me flying by the seat of my pants.

Needless to say, everytime I fly, I feel like it is my first flight!
Thanks to all who take the time to share their expertise on these
newsgroups to newbies like me!

Allen

[A Lieberman]

Yossarian wrote:
>
> How did you go through all your training without ever stopping at a
> controlled airport?

Hi Yossarian,

All my training at controlled airports were touch and goes. My first
"full stop" was after I got my pilot's license. The reason I put this
in, was that I had to ask for progressive taxi instructions.

>Let's hear about that engine failure.

This is what I posted back in July to the rec.aviation group.......

Thought I would share my first emergency....

I was flying from MBO (Madison MS) to L31 (Covington LA) to meet my
sister for dinner, and get some night time hours on the return trip. I
have done this trip many times.

Left Madison at 5:00 p.m. with an expected arrival at 6:15. I am
starting my IFR training, so figured to really focus on holding altitude
and heading working on "precision flying". I was doing great all along
the trip, and looking ahead, saw major buildups in my path. Called
122.00 and asked for an inflight advisory. Weather was moving SSW and
though close, they said I should make my destination. Little did I know
the weather would be the least of my concerns.

15 miles from my destination cruising at 3500, I got a horrible
vibration throughout the engine. First thing I did was put the carb
heat on. Made the vibration even worse. I held the carb heat for about
10 seconds, and turned it off. Immediately saw a "target farm field"
should I need it and never let it leave my sight. Next, switched tanks,
no change in vibration. Next fuel pump, no change. Next, checked my
mags, left, then right, no change in vibration.

Next, turned to 121.5 and said, This is Sundowner 12345L declaring an
emergency, anybody monitoring the frequency. As I am doing this, I am
setting myself up for the "best glide" speed of 78 knots. Guard
responds with Sundowner 12345L, go ahead with your emergency. I replied
back, I have an extremely rough running engine, I am 12 miles from
destination, I have an alternative field in site should I need it, I
will be sqawking 7700. I then turn the transponder to 7700. In this
short time, I lost 500 valuable feet altitude.

As I reduced my power, and enriched the engine, trying different "power"
settings, I noticed the vibration reduced somewhat. I watched my VSI,
and noticed that I was able to "maintain" a 200 foot descent. Quick
math in my head said, I had "15 minutes" flying time if I left my
configuration the way it was, and now I was 10 miles from destination.
121.5 gets New Orleans approach, and New Orleans approach gets on 121.5
and tells me to squawk 4026. I acknowledge New Orleans approach, change
my transponder to 4026, and said to New Orleans approach, that I have a
stable 200 foot descent rate, engine is running rough, and my intentions
is to proceed on to L31. Once I made my decision, I pretty much left
what I had going alone. 4 miles out, I said "New Orleans approach,
Sundowner 12345L request to change to 122.80. New Orleans approach said
frequency change approved, please call FSS to let us know you are safe
on the ground. I said Sundowner 12345. will call FSS after touchdown.
I set the radio to 122.80, called in Unicom and said, St Tamminy
Sundowner 12345L declaring an emergency, inbound for runway 18 straight
in approach. In my nervousnous, New Orleans approach says, Sundowner
12345L, you are still transmitting on 121.5. Duh, helps to change the
button from Com 1 to Com 2. So, I switch coms, and repeat my broadcast.

2 miles out, see that I am way too high for straight in, I decided
instead of a straight in approach, that I would enter on the downwind
leg, and proceed to use runway 36 to lose my altitude. I announce on
122.80, Saint Tamminy, Sundowner 12345L declaring emergency, changing
intentions, entering downwind for 36. I left my power settings the way
I had it, for the first half of downwind, and then abeam the numbers, I
reduced the power ever so slowly, and also enriched the mixture ever so
slowly. Engine got rougher, but kept running. Trimmed for landing,
extended first set of flaps, and the second set of flaps on downwind. I
did this so all I had to do was realy concentrate on flying the plane
for base and final rather then "finess the plane". Kept my downwind
closer to the runway then normal and turn base much sooner then normal.
On final, I was 1200 feet above field elevation. On final, I heard that
little voice say, better to hit the trees at the end of the runway then
the beginning, so I made sure, that I had a higher then normal approach.

Seeing I was way high, I put in full right rudder, full left aileron,
and pretty much turn the plane perpendicular to the runway. Slip worked
great, ears starting popping on descent, and when I cleared the trees,
turned forward. Saw I was still too high, returned to the slip, for
another 5 to 10 seconds, and then straightened out. Cross the numbers
about 25 feet AGL, speed, just above glide speed, cut the throttle to a
fast idle. I get major vibration in the engine Started to lower the
nose, felt my speed increase, and then raised the nose. Hit ground
effect, halfway down the runway, ballooned to about 5 feet above the
ground, I raised the nose to bleed off the speed, landed on the last
third of the runway. Runway is 2999 feet, so I knew I wasn't stopping
at the end of the runway, applied firm brakes, rolled off the runway,
with the yoke clear to my chest. I was able to stop about 50 feet after
leaving the end of the runway in hard ground with about knee high
grass.

Engine was really rough, I turn around and limp back to the ramp,
airframe and gear fully intact. Go to shut down, and the engine did not
want to shut down. It finally shut down. My brother in law was waiting
for me at the airport (he is a pilot), we decide to start up the engine
to see if he could figure out the problem. Engine was rough on idle,
tried to increase RPMs, but the best we could get is 1800, so we shut
down.

We start calling A&P's around the area, and finally found one that could
come out the next day. After describing the symptoms, first thing she
thought was a fuel related problem, and asked me the usual questions,
did I sump, did I see water, and so on. Nothing in the fuel, I told her
runup was absolutely normal.

She pokes around the engine, pulling all fuel related hoses, saw lines
and screens were clear, so next, she pulled the prop through and found
that a cylinder lost all compressions. So, now the obviouse occurred,
now to find why.... She pulled the cylinder out, and after opening the
cylinder, we saw an unbelievable sight. Piston head had shards of metal
pounded in it from the exhuast valve, even more amazing was the cylinder
walls were smooth, and rings remained intact! She suspected that most
of the exhaust valve was ejected out the exhaust pipe as she found
fragments of metal through the exhaust manifold but very little in the
intake portion of the engine. Problem "solved" so we thought, replace
the cylinder, and off I go.

She comes back the next day, installed the cylinder, changed the oil,
leak tested the engine and closed the cowling, she wanted to go up with
me, as she had never been in a Sundowner. It is dark by this time, and
while she was getting her tools together, I preflight. I taxi to the
runway, call unicom to advise that I was backtaxing to 36. The runway
has a runup area at the very end of the runway, I do the runup, all
looks good. I get to the end of 36, and the A&P says, before departing,
I need you to do a full throttle test. I hold the brakes, put the
throttle full forward, and only get 2200 RPM. POH requires 2700. She
says, lean it a tad, see what happens. No change to RPM. Lean it more,
EGT and CHT goes up, engine starts running "normal rough". Needless to
say, not good. She says taxi back to the ramp. No flying tonight. We
taxi back, we pull the cowl. She says, the engine is acting like it is
getting too much hot air for the RPMs not to go full throttle,
reverifies the duct work, and all looks good. Last thing to look at is
the carberator as the engine was purring like a kitten, just could not
get 2700 RPM. We called it the night (11:00 p.m.)

She said, I had a better chance at winning the lotto then what happened
to me. The carberator was the top of the line carberator, and she said
in the 19 years she has been an A&P, she has never pulled one from an
engine. So, today, she pulls the carberator, and she tears it down.
She noticed that the lever to the throttle would not push full forward.
It would go it's full range. She felt that due to the severe vibration,
something in the carberator shook loose, and is preventing the full
extension of the throttle cable. So, now I need a new carberator put
in.

Seeing the forest through the trees, I figure the outcome was as good as
it got, considering the catastropic engine problem I experienced.

One thing I cannot thank my instructor enough was to instill the "what
if scenarios", as when it really happened, I heard him in my mind say,
make a decision, stick to it, but most importantly FLY THE PLANE.

The only thing I could not do during this entire episode is to pull the
POH for emergency procedures. I found as the real thing happens, you
don't have time to pull a book, find the chapter, and go to the list.
My first instinct was to do what I could remember (I studied my POH big
time when I bought the plane, and refer to it frequently, to be sure I
know what to do) and FLY THE PLANE.

I have an emergency checklist seperate, but in reality, the time it
takes to pull the list, get yourself oriented, you lose very valuable
time when you are in the plane by yourself. It may have been different
if I had a passenger, but when I was alone, I relied on my memory.
(which as it turned out was not so bad *smile*.

I could have possibley diverted to another airport in Slidell LA in
"gliding range" with a longer runway, but the thunderstorms that I saw
were over that airport, so I ruled out trying to make it to that
airport.

In "hangar" talk, I asked some pilots, should I file an ASR report. It
was split down the middle, some said yes, some said no. I am leaning on
filing a report.

Allen

[A Lieberman]

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> > Let's hear about that engine failure.

Hi Paul,

This is what I posted back in July to the rec.aviation groups.......

Thought I would share my first emergency....

I was flying from MBO (Madison MS) to L31 (Covington LA) to meet my
sister for dinner, and get some night time hours on the return trip. I
have done this trip many times.

Left Madison at 5:00 p.m. with an expected arrival at 6:15. I am
starting my IFR training, so figured to really focus on holding altitude
and heading working on "precision flying". I was doing great all along
the trip, and looking ahead, saw major buildups in my path. Called
122.00 and asked for an inflight advisory. Weather was moving SSW and
though close, they said I should make my destination. Little did I know
the weather would be the least of my concerns.

15 miles from my destination cruising at 3500, I got a horrible
vibration throughout the engine. First thing I did was put the carb
heat on. Made the vibration even worse. I held the carb heat for about
10 seconds, and turned it off. Immediately saw a "target farm field"
should I need it and never let it leave my sight. Next, switched tanks,
no change in vibration. Next fuel pump, no change. Next, checked my
mags, left, then right, no change in vibration.

Next, turned to 121.5 and said, This is Sundowner 12345L declaring an
emergency, anybody monitoring the frequency. As I am doing this, I am
setting myself up for the "best glide" speed of 78 knots. Guard
responds with Sundowner 12345L, go ahead with your emergency. I replied
back, I have an extremely rough running engine, I am 12 miles from
destination, I have an alternative field in site should I need it, I
will be sqawking 7700. I then turn the transponder to 7700. In this
short time, I lost 500 valuable feet altitude.

As I reduced my power, and enriched the engine, trying different "power"
settings, I noticed the vibration reduced somewhat. I watched my VSI,
and noticed that I was able to "maintain" a 200 foot descent. Quick
math in my head said, I had "15 minutes" flying time if I left my
configuration the way it was, and now I was 10 miles from destination.
121.5 gets New Orleans approach, and New Orleans approach gets on 121.5
and tells me to squawk 4026. I acknowledge New Orleans approach, change
my transponder to 4026, and said to New Orleans approach, that I have a
stable 200 foot descent rate, engine is running rough, and my intentions
is to proceed on to L31. Once I made my decision, I pretty much left
what I had going alone. 4 miles out, I said "New Orleans approach,
Sundowner 12345L request to change to 122.80. New Orleans approach said
frequency change approved, please call FSS to let us know you are safe
on the ground. I said Sundowner 12345. will call FSS after touchdown.
I set the radio to 122.80, called in Unicom and said, St Tamminy
Sundowner 12345L declaring an emergency, inbound for runway 18 straight
in approach. In my nervousnous, New Orleans approach says, Sundowner
12345L, you are still transmitting on 121.5. Duh, helps to change the
button from Com 1 to Com 2. So, I switch coms, and repeat my broadcast.

2 miles out, see that I am way too high for straight in, I decided
instead of a straight in approach, that I would enter on the downwind
leg, and proceed to use runway 36 to lose my altitude. I announce on
122.80, Saint Tamminy, Sundowner 12345L declaring emergency, changing
intentions, entering downwind for 36. I left my power settings the way
I had it, for the first half of downwind, and then abeam the numbers, I
reduced the power ever so slowly, and also enriched the mixture ever so
slowly. Engine got rougher, but kept running. Trimmed for landing,
extended first set of flaps, and the second set of flaps on downwind. I
did this so all I had to do was realy concentrate on flying the plane
for base and final rather then "finess the plane". Kept my downwind
closer to the runway then normal and turn base much sooner then normal.
On final, I was 1200 feet above field elevation. On final, I heard that
little voice say, better to hit the trees at the end of the runway then
the beginning, so I made sure, that I had a higher then normal approach.

Seeing I was way high, I put in full right rudder, full left aileron,
and pretty much turn the plane perpendicular to the runway. Slip worked
great, ears starting popping on descent, and when I cleared the trees,
turned forward. Saw I was still too high, returned to the slip, for
another 5 to 10 seconds, and then straightened out. Cross the numbers
about 25 feet AGL, speed, just above glide speed, cut the throttle to a
fast idle. I get major vibration in the engine Started to lower the
nose, felt my speed increase, and then raised the nose. Hit ground
effect, halfway down the runway, ballooned to about 5 feet above the
ground, I raised the nose to bleed off the speed, landed on the last
third of the runway. Runway is 2999 feet, so I knew I wasn't stopping
at the end of the runway, applied firm brakes, rolled off the runway,
with the yoke clear to my chest. I was able to stop about 50 feet after
leaving the end of the runway in hard ground with about knee high
grass.

Engine was really rough, I turn around and limp back to the ramp,
airframe and gear fully intact. Go to shut down, and the engine did not
want to shut down. It finally shut down. My brother in law was waiting
for me at the airport (he is a pilot), we decide to start up the engine
to see if he could figure out the problem. Engine was rough on idle,
tried to increase RPMs, but the best we could get is 1800, so we shut
down.

We start calling A&P's around the area, and finally found one that could
come out the next day. After describing the symptoms, first thing she
thought was a fuel related problem, and asked me the usual questions,
did I sump, did I see water, and so on. Nothing in the fuel, I told her
runup was absolutely normal.

She pokes around the engine, pulling all fuel related hoses, saw lines
and screens were clear, so next, she pulled the prop through and found
that a cylinder lost all compressions. So, now the obviouse occurred,
now to find why.... She pulled the cylinder out, and after opening the
cylinder, we saw an unbelievable sight. Piston head had shards of metal
pounded in it from the exhuast valve, even more amazing was the cylinder
walls were smooth, and rings remained intact! She suspected that most
of the exhaust valve was ejected out the exhaust pipe as she found
fragments of metal through the exhaust manifold but very little in the
intake portion of the engine. Problem "solved" so we thought, replace
the cylinder, and off I go.

She comes back the next day, installed the cylinder, changed the oil,
leak tested the engine and closed the cowling, she wanted to go up with
me, as she had never been in a Sundowner. It is dark by this time, and
while she was getting her tools together, I preflight. I taxi to the
runway, call unicom to advise that I was backtaxing to 36. The runway
has a runup area at the very end of the runway, I do the runup, all
looks good. I get to the end of 36, and the A&P says, before departing,
I need you to do a full throttle test. I hold the brakes, put the
throttle full forward, and only get 2200 RPM. POH requires 2700. She
says, lean it a tad, see what happens. No change to RPM. Lean it more,
EGT and CHT goes up, engine starts running "normal rough". Needless to
say, not good. She says taxi back to the ramp. No flying tonight. We
taxi back, we pull the cowl. She says, the engine is acting like it is
getting too much hot air for the RPMs not to go full throttle,
reverifies the duct work, and all looks good. Last thing to look at is
the carberator as the engine was purring like a kitten, just could not
get 2700 RPM. We called it the night (11:00 p.m.)

She said, I had a better chance at winning the lotto then what happened
to me. The carberator was the top of the line carberator, and she said
in the 19 years she has been an A&P, she has never pulled one from an
engine. So, today, she pulls the carberator, and she tears it down.
She noticed that the lever to the throttle would not push full forward.
It would go it's full range. She felt that due to the severe vibration,
something in the carberator shook loose, and is preventing the full
extension of the throttle cable. So, now I need a new carberator put
in.

Seeing the forest through the trees, I figure the outcome was as good as
it got, considering the catastropic engine problem I experienced.

One thing I cannot thank my instructor enough was to instill the "what
if scenarios", as when it really happened, I heard him in my mind say,
make a decision, stick to it, but most importantly FLY THE PLANE.

The only thing I could not do during this entire episode is to pull the
POH for emergency procedures. I found as the real thing happens, you
don't have time to pull a book, find the chapter, and go to the list.
My first instinct was to do what I could remember (I studied my POH big
time when I bought the plane, and refer to it frequently, to be sure I
know what to do) and FLY THE PLANE.

I have an emergency checklist seperate, but in reality, the time it
takes to pull the list, get yourself oriented, you lose very valuable
time when you are in the plane by yourself. It may have been different
if I had a passenger, but when I was alone, I relied on my memory.
(which as it turned out was not so bad *smile*.

I could have possibley diverted to another airport in Slidell LA in
"gliding range" with a longer runway, but the thunderstorms that I saw
were over that airport, so I ruled out trying to make it to that
airport.

In "hangar" talk, I asked some pilots, should I file an ASR report. It
was split down the middle, some said yes, some said no. I am leaning on
filing a report.

Allen

[tony roberts]

> Since I didn't do any damage to the plane or taxi lights, I did not need
> (or feel the need) to report it. My insurance on the Sundowner is $1200
> per year after I got a major overhaul (It was 1000.00 per year before my
> overhaul).

Good decision. Interesting that your insurance went up 20% AFTER major
overhaul. I guess that there has to be some logic in that - the problem
is in finding it :)


> I did file a NASA form per the overwhelming advice from people, even
> though I didn't do anything "wrong".

That's always a safe otion.


> > After an engine failure AND an electrical fire in 200 hours, I would
> > probably be looking at doing something safer like BASE jumping :)


> I chalk it up to learning experiences. Though parachuting never really
> crossed my mind, as it defies my logic as to jumping from a perfectly
> working plane *smile*.

But what if it is on fire or the engine just quit :) You wouldn't jump?
:):):)

> > Almost Instrument :)

> Just starting mine!

It's fun and good training. I don't think that I'll ever use it
intentionally in a 172H - but if I'm ever stuck and it gets me back to
the ground safely then it was a good investment.

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[A Lieberman]

tony roberts wrote:

> My question is different to most of the ones you will receive.
> How much extra hassle do you now have getting insurance, since departing
> the end of the runway? Or didn't you mention it.

Hi Tony,

Since I didn't do any damage to the plane or taxi lights, I did not need
(or feel the need) to report it. My insurance on the Sundowner is $1200
per year after I got a major overhaul (It was 1000.00 per year before my
overhaul).

In fact, I was expecting paperwork from declaring the emergency on
121.50, but the only thing I had to do was call FSS to let them know I
was safely on the ground.

I did file a NASA form per the overwhelming advice from people, even
though I didn't do anything "wrong".

> After an engine failure AND an electrical fire in 200 hours, I would
> probably be looking at doing something safer like BASE jumping :)

I chalk it up to learning experiences. Though parachuting never really
crossed my mind, as it defies my logic as to jumping from a perfectly
working plane *smile*.

> Almost Instrument :)

Just starting mine! Finished ground school, now to start the flying
part. A lot more then almost for me!

Allen

[Jeff]

I would give that plane back to who ever he got it from...

Yossarian wrote:

> How did you go through all your training without ever stopping at a
> controlled airport?
>
> Let's hear about that engine failure.
>
> "A Lieberman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On my 200th hour, I had my best feel good landing. Been interesting to
> > look back on my log book and see how much I have learned / experienced
> > in the past 2+ years / 200 hours. Summary as shown below
> >
> > 09/29/2001 First flight!
> > 06/30/2002 First Solo
> > 09/29/2002 First Duel Cross Country
> > 10/14/2002 First Solo Cross Country
> > 01/26/2003 Passed Check Ride
> > 01/27/2003 First passenger taken
> > 02/02/2003 Checkout ride in my Beech Sundowner
> > 02/24/2003 Night landing, no landing light
> > 02/23/2003 First passenger taken on a cross country trip
> > 03/09/2003 First night cross country solo
> > 04/11/2003 First full stop at a controlled airport
> > 04/18/2003 Caught VFR on top, diverted to another airport
> > 04/19/2003 2nd Diversion due to strong headwinds for fuel
> > 05/18/2003 Vacuum pump failure during night flight
> > 07/19/2003 Engine failure - declared inflight emergency to ATC
> > 09/22/2003 Test flight for engine break in
> > 11/12/2003 Electrical fire (no flames, just burning wires and smoke)
> > 12/11/2003 Runway closure, landed on taxiway
> >
> > Today's landing reflected the quality training I have received at MBO.
> > I was returning from a lunch with a friend of mine at MCB (McComb MS).
> > There was a NOTAM for runway closure at MBO (Madison MS) that was to
> > expire 21Z. I arrived back at 20:30Z, and JAN (Jackson MS) approach
> > told me the NOTAM was still in effect. I said no problem, I will go the
> > practice area and fly for a little bit and wait for the runway to open.
> > At 21:30Z, I reported to approach that I wanted to return to MBO.
> > Approach did not have any information on the NOTAM, so I said I would
> > report back to him. I over flew the airport, saw the X's on the runway,
> > called into MBO and asked how much longer. The runway was being
> > repainted. They didn't know, but landing and take offs were being done
> > on the taxiway, so I report back to Jackson and requested to return to
> > the practice area. I flew for another 1/2 hour and then returned back
> > to MBO. Runway was still closed, so I decided OK, I will make the
> > attempt to land on the taxiway. I had first and foremost, "if it ain't
> > right, go around", so I was ready to fire wall it just about the entire
> > approach. Taxiways look like toothpicks on approach! Wind sock was
> > pointed at a 45 degree angle to the runway, but the winds were not
> > strong, maybe 5 knots, so I knew crosswind component would be minimal.
> > I trimmed the plane on downwind, and slowed to my approach speed on
> > downwind, so all I had to do was really focus on my ground track. My
> > tracking was real good, holding it all the way to the ground. Mains
> > touched, and I wouldn't doubt if the nose wheel landed right on the taxi
> > line. This was by far one of the most feel good landings I ever had.
> > The biggest thing about this, is that due to the narrowness of the
> > taxiway, I did't have the edges to really use for reference, since my
> > wings blocked my view, so I used the seat of my pants, and used power to
> > control my descent down the ground. This was the first time I could
> > really feel me flying by the seat of my pants.
> >
> > Needless to say, everytime I fly, I feel like it is my first flight!
> > Thanks to all who take the time to share their expertise on these
> > newsgroups to newbies like me!
> >
> > Allen

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Thanks for posting that!!! Great story!!!!

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[A Lieberman]

Jeff wrote:
>
> I would give that plane back to who ever he got it from...

Hey Jeff,

When I bought the plane, it had 1940 hours on the airframe and engine
(1976 Sundowner). I bought it KNOWING that major overhaul was in my
future. I just didn't know how soon in my future it would be. I bought
it for 38K. It was well equipped avionics wise.

Because of the low time hours (and the fact it was only flown 20 hours
in the prior 3 years!), that my problems were a result of LACK of
usage. Grease, lubrication drying out, settling and so on.

Now that I have had the overhaul and hopefully got the gremlins out, the
expenses are stabilizing. I fly 2 times a week, weather permitting, so
parts get well lubed now *smile*.

Allen

[A Lieberman]

tony roberts wrote:

> Good decision. Interesting that your insurance went up 20% AFTER major
> overhaul. I guess that there has to be some logic in that - the problem
> is in finding it :)

Hi Tony,

Value of the plane goes up after major overhaul. It was insured for 38K
before overhaul, I was able to bump up the insured value to 48K after
overhaul.

> > I chalk it up to learning experiences. Though parachuting never really
> > crossed my mind, as it defies my logic as to jumping from a perfectly
> > working plane *smile*.
>
> But what if it is on fire or the engine just quit :) You wouldn't jump?
> :):):)

Ahh, but then this would not be a "perfectly working plane". Actually,
if the engine just quit, hopefully, I still would have a rather
expensive glider, albeit heavy glider, but something to absorb the
impact between my carcass and the ground. Since I fly lower altitudes,
I don't know if there would be enough time for a chute to open.

> It's fun and good training. I don't think that I'll ever use it
> intentionally in a 172H - but if I'm ever stuck and it gets me back to
> the ground safely then it was a good investment.

Also helps on insurance premiums so I am told. I do intend to fly
actual, as I will be planning some serious distant cross country trips
that I just can't do VFR, especially this time of the year. I live in
Mississippi, and want to plan trips to Ohio. When it's sunny here, it's
snowing there, and when it's sunny there, it's raining here.

Allen

[Gene Seibel]

Sometimes it's a dual and sometimes it's a duel. ;) Sounds like you've
had some interesting moments. I've had a few myself over the last 27
years and can identify. Keep enjoying the adventures and handling the
challenges like you have been.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


> 09/29/2002 First Duel Cross Country

[aaronw]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:25:26 -0800, A Lieberman >
wrote:

>Yossarian wrote:
>>
>> How did you go through all your training without ever stopping at a
>> controlled airport?
>
>Hi Yossarian,
>
>All my training at controlled airports were touch and goes. My first
>"full stop" was after I got my pilot's license. The reason I put this
>in, was that I had to ask for progressive taxi instructions.

Not that I'm trying to make life difficult, but:

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane,
consisting of at least --

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each
landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with
an operating control tower.

aw

[A Lieberman]

aaronw wrote:

> Not that I'm trying to make life difficult, but:
>
> § 61.109 Aeronautical experience.
>
> (5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane,
> consisting of at least --
>
> (iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each
> landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with
> an operating control tower.

No problem with what you say Aaron!

I learned about this after I did my long cross country trip. Needless
to say, the logbook doesn't have a place for full stop vs touch and
goes, just landings at controlled airports in which the DE looks for.

Allen

[Robert Simpson]

"A Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
: On my 200th hour, I had my best feel good landing. Been interesting
to
: look back on my log book and see how much I have learned / experienced
: in the past 2+ years / 200 hours. Summary as shown below
:
: 09/29/2001 First flight!
: 06/30/2002 First Solo
: 09/29/2002 First Duel Cross Country
: 10/14/2002 First Solo Cross Country
: 01/26/2003 Passed Check Ride
: 01/27/2003 First passenger taken
: 02/02/2003 Checkout ride in my Beech Sundowner
: 02/24/2003 Night landing, no landing light
: 02/23/2003 First passenger taken on a cross country trip
: 03/09/2003 First night cross country solo
: 04/11/2003 First full stop at a controlled airport
: 04/18/2003 Caught VFR on top, diverted to another airport
: 04/19/2003 2nd Diversion due to strong headwinds for fuel
: 05/18/2003 Vacuum pump failure during night flight
: 07/19/2003 Engine failure - declared inflight emergency to ATC
: 09/22/2003 Test flight for engine break in
: 11/12/2003 Electrical fire (no flames, just burning wires and smoke)
: 12/11/2003 Runway closure, landed on taxiway
:

This is a newbe question from someone who is thinking about beginning
flight training.

I see it took about 9 months from first flight to solo, 7 more months to
the check ride and about 26 months total to accumulate 200 hours and
begin IFR instruction. Is this pretty close to the time it usually takes
to get to these milestones?

[Casey Wilson]

"Robert Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> This is a newbe question from someone who is thinking about beginning
> flight training.
>
> I see it took about 9 months from first flight to solo, 7 more months to
> the check ride and about 26 months total to accumulate 200 hours and
> begin IFR instruction. Is this pretty close to the time it usually takes
> to get to these milestones?
>

There is certainly a fatigue factor involved -- and sometimes a student
(in any curriculum) needs some time to absorb or digest the information
gained by a lesson. More practically, it depends on how much money and time
you have available and -- to an unmeasurable extent -- how fast you learn
the material presented.

[gross_arrow]

A Lieberman > wrote in message >...
> Yossarian wrote:
> >
> > How did you go through all your training without ever stopping at a
> > controlled airport?
>
> Hi Yossarian,
>
> All my training at controlled airports were touch and goes. My first
> "full stop" was after I got my pilot's license. The reason I put this
> in, was that I had to ask for progressive taxi instructions.
>
> Allen

well, i guess it's too late to yank your ticket now :-), but you
didn't
really meet all the requirements for private if the above is true:

61.109
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating....
(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane,
consisting of at least --
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each
landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with
an operating control tower.

that's from the online fars

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr61_00.html

which you may argue are newer than 2001. however, i have a '97
printed
copy in front of my which has the same paragraph except for the
parenthetical
phrase, meaning "full stop" was in as far back as '97. (my memory
tells me it
was in a lot longer ago than that, but i don't have an older copy to
substantiate
that.)


not being critical (really, your cfi was to blame for sending you up
with
this deficiency, not you), but that's probably why yossarian asked.

mho,

g_a

[A Lieberman]

Robert Simpson wrote:

> This is a newbe question from someone who is thinking about beginning
> flight training.
>
> I see it took about 9 months from first flight to solo, 7 more months to
> the check ride and about 26 months total to accumulate 200 hours and
> begin IFR instruction. Is this pretty close to the time it usually takes
> to get to these milestones?

Robert,

For me, a lot of factors came into play for the time frame on training.

The biggest factor was the availability of my flight instructor. He
only tought on weekends. So, I flew basically once a week. Weather is
a major factor, throw in marginal visual flight rules, high winds, and
training is pretty much cancelled.

After going solo, I was able to fly more often, but then the cost factor
goes up. Each lesson gets more expensive as you now enter the stage of
going airport to airport (cross country trips).

Figure on 100 to 125 an hour for airplane and instructor fee. This
varies greatly geographically! I now own my own airplane, so the cost
factor of flying has decreased some overall.

If you have an instructor that teaches throughout the week, and you have
the money, the time frame will be significantly shorter.

Hope this helps.

Allen

[Jeff]

that many problems that close together would worry me, there are some people
who can go very long time before having the amount of inflight problems you
had ..at least you know your emergency skills are good :)


A Lieberman wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
> >
> > I would give that plane back to who ever he got it from...
>
> Hey Jeff,
>
> When I bought the plane, it had 1940 hours on the airframe and engine
> (1976 Sundowner). I bought it KNOWING that major overhaul was in my
> future. I just didn't know how soon in my future it would be. I bought
> it for 38K. It was well equipped avionics wise.
>
> Because of the low time hours (and the fact it was only flown 20 hours
> in the prior 3 years!), that my problems were a result of LACK of
> usage. Grease, lubrication drying out, settling and so on.
>
> Now that I have had the overhaul and hopefully got the gremlins out, the
> expenses are stabilizing. I fly 2 times a week, weather permitting, so
> parts get well lubed now *smile*.
>
> Allen

[Jeff]

not at all, depends on how fast you want to do it.
I finished my private in 3 months, then it took me 6 months to finish my
instument, the reason for the long time was me just sitting down and getting
the written out of the way. So far, I have slowly been getting ready for the
commericial, been working at it for 3 months now...If I just sit down and do
it, I can be done in a week.

Robert Simpson wrote:

> "A Lieberman" > wrote in message
> ...
> : On my 200th hour, I had my best feel good landing. Been interesting
> to
> : look back on my log book and see how much I have learned / experienced
> : in the past 2+ years / 200 hours. Summary as shown below
> :
> : 09/29/2001 First flight!
> : 06/30/2002 First Solo
> : 09/29/2002 First Duel Cross Country
> : 10/14/2002 First Solo Cross Country
> : 01/26/2003 Passed Check Ride
> : 01/27/2003 First passenger taken
> : 02/02/2003 Checkout ride in my Beech Sundowner
> : 02/24/2003 Night landing, no landing light
> : 02/23/2003 First passenger taken on a cross country trip
> : 03/09/2003 First night cross country solo
> : 04/11/2003 First full stop at a controlled airport
> : 04/18/2003 Caught VFR on top, diverted to another airport
> : 04/19/2003 2nd Diversion due to strong headwinds for fuel
> : 05/18/2003 Vacuum pump failure during night flight
> : 07/19/2003 Engine failure - declared inflight emergency to ATC
> : 09/22/2003 Test flight for engine break in
> : 11/12/2003 Electrical fire (no flames, just burning wires and smoke)
> : 12/11/2003 Runway closure, landed on taxiway
> :
>
> This is a newbe question from someone who is thinking about beginning
> flight training.
>
> I see it took about 9 months from first flight to solo, 7 more months to
> the check ride and about 26 months total to accumulate 200 hours and
> begin IFR instruction. Is this pretty close to the time it usually takes
> to get to these milestones?

[Jürgen Exner]

Robert Simpson wrote:
[...]
> I see it took about 9 months from first flight to solo, 7 more months
> to the check ride and about 26 months total to accumulate 200 hours
> and begin IFR instruction. Is this pretty close to the time it
> usually takes to get to these milestones?

Well, there are flying schools which offer a Private Pilot course including
the check ride within 2 weeks.
And they actually deliver what they promise!
However, while you may have a license after those 2 weeks, you still don't
know how to fly.

Just compare the US legal minumum of 35 hours with the US national average
of somewhere around 65 hours for the Private. There are many reasons why
people need longer:
- many people take a break and come back months later
- many people cannot afford(financially or time-wise) to fly more often then
once a week or even less then that. But that means that in the meantime your
mind and your body forgot about what you had learned the lesson before and
you will spent half of the next lesson just re-learning what you did last
time.
If you can fly every other day then you will need much less actual flying
time because you will forget less between lessons.

Personally I started in September, flying pretty much every other day. Then
I had to take a break for 2 months. And now I have some hopes to maybe solo
between the years or shortly after, weather permitting.

jue

[Robert M. Gary]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message >...
> Robert Simpson wrote:
> [...]
> > I see it took about 9 months from first flight to solo, 7 more months
> > to the check ride and about 26 months total to accumulate 200 hours
> > and begin IFR instruction. Is this pretty close to the time it
> > usually takes to get to these milestones?
>
> Well, there are flying schools which offer a Private Pilot course including
> the check ride within 2 weeks.
> And they actually deliver what they promise!
> However, while you may have a license after those 2 weeks, you still don't
> know how to fly.

I could argue either side of that. I would say that as a CFI about 25%
of the cockpit time I spend with students is going over what they
missed when family took them out of town, etc and they didn't fly for
2 weeks. If you can cram an entire private in 2 weeks, the student
probably doesn't have to do much relearning. I've never worked at such
an outfit but I imagine it works well. Now, the weekend instrument
rating, I'm not sure about. I don't think I'm putting my Grandmother
in a plane with a pilot about to launch IMC with a weekend IFR ticket
but I may well with a 2 week private.
-Robert CFI