Re: presidential TFR - 3,291 statute miles square!

[Larry Dighera]

It looks like we're not the only ones who think baby Bush's 3,000+
square mile TFRs are too big:


-------------------------------------------------------------
AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 50 December 12, 2003
-------------------------------------------------------------

PENNSYLVANIA LAWMAKERS CALL FOR SMALLER TFRs
Remember that poor pipeline patrol pilot who unwittingly flew over
the presidential motorcade in Philadelphia earlier this year? The
Pennsylvania legislature certainly does. AOPA President Phil Boyer
was the honored guest of state Rep. Gene McGill, an AOPA member, as
the House of Representatives on Monday passed, by a near-unanimous
vote, a resolution that calls on federal security officials to reduce
the size of temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) resulting from
presidential travel. The four-page resolution asks for authorities to
"reconsider the need to issue such restrictions based on nonspecific
threats and ways to improve the timely dissemination of flight
restriction information to pilots." The resolution will be sent to
key federal government officials. See AOPA Online
( http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-4-139x.html ).



On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:06:37 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote in Message-Id: >:

>On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 06:07:34 -0400, Cub Driver > wrote
>in Message-Id: >:
>
>>The prezdint is coming to Portsmouth and Manchester NH this week, and
>>AOPA reminds us that in such cases he is usually accompanied by a
>>60-mile TFR.
>
>Right. Baby Bush inflicts a 60 nm diameter no-fly-zone on the NAS
>wherever he goes in this country. They call it a 30 nm TFR, but it's
>really 2,826 nautical miles square, or 3,291 statute miles square!
>
>All he has to do to defeat the Democrats next year is to be near their
>convention site during its duration; air transportation will be
>halted.

[Peter R.]

Larry Dighera ) wrote:

> PENNSYLVANIA LAWMAKERS CALL FOR SMALLER TFRs
> Remember that poor pipeline patrol pilot who unwittingly flew over
> the presidential motorcade in Philadelphia earlier this year? The
> Pennsylvania legislature certainly does. AOPA President Phil Boyer
> was the honored guest of state Rep. Gene McGill, an AOPA member, as
> the House of Representatives on Monday passed, by a near-unanimous
> vote, a resolution that calls on federal security officials to reduce
> the size of temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) resulting from
> presidential travel. The four-page resolution asks for authorities to
> "reconsider the need to issue such restrictions based on nonspecific
> threats and ways to improve the timely dissemination of flight
> restriction information to pilots." The resolution will be sent to
> key federal government officials. See AOPA Online

Makes me happy that my only family vacation by GA airplane was to
Harrisburg, PA, and three days at Hershey Park last June.

--
Peter












----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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[Larry Dighera]

Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:


-------------------------------------------------------------------
AVflash Volume 10, Number 22a -- May 23, 2004
-------------------------------------------------------------------

THE TFR THAT WAS, THE PRESIDENT THAT WASN'T ... THERE
Saturday (according to a TFR issued May 20) saw the airspace around
Austin (Texas) Bergstrom International Airport restricted for GA
traffic and open for the president ... who showed up but then skipped
the event he was in town to see. Alas, the Temporary Flight
Restriction, which read in part, "AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE
PROHIBITED WITHIN 30 NMR UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL1801" ... and then
in part two... "ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE 30 NMR TFR SHALL
BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR OR VFR FLIGHT PLAN" was offered to the flying
public regardless of (clarity or) presidential presence. The
restrictions were intended to allow presidential access to the area
relatively free from free-range light aircraft and allow the proud
Bush parents to witness the graduation of daughter Jenna ... who also
didn't show up. Consistency, at least.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/240-full.html#187342


On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:32:13 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote in Message-Id: >:

>
>It looks like we're not the only ones who think baby Bush's 3,000+
>square mile TFRs are too big:
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 50 December 12, 2003
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>PENNSYLVANIA LAWMAKERS CALL FOR SMALLER TFRs
>Remember that poor pipeline patrol pilot who unwittingly flew over
>the presidential motorcade in Philadelphia earlier this year? The
>Pennsylvania legislature certainly does. AOPA President Phil Boyer
>was the honored guest of state Rep. Gene McGill, an AOPA member, as
>the House of Representatives on Monday passed, by a near-unanimous
>vote, a resolution that calls on federal security officials to reduce
>the size of temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) resulting from
>presidential travel. The four-page resolution asks for authorities to
>"reconsider the need to issue such restrictions based on nonspecific
>threats and ways to improve the timely dissemination of flight
>restriction information to pilots." The resolution will be sent to
>key federal government officials. See AOPA Online
>( http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-4-139x.html ).
>
>
>
>On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:06:37 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
>>On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 06:07:34 -0400, Cub Driver > wrote
>>in Message-Id: >:
>>
>>>The prezdint is coming to Portsmouth and Manchester NH this week, and
>>>AOPA reminds us that in such cases he is usually accompanied by a
>>>60-mile TFR.
>>
>>Right. Baby Bush inflicts a 60 nm diameter no-fly-zone on the NAS
>>wherever he goes in this country. They call it a 30 nm TFR, but it's
>>really 2,826 nautical miles square, or 3,291 statute miles square!
>>
>>All he has to do to defeat the Democrats next year is to be near their
>>convention site during its duration; air transportation will be
>>halted.

--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Blanche]

It was announced a few weeks ago that the Bush's would NOT attend
the graduation ceremonies for either daughter to avoid really
annoying everyone else attending.

UT graduates thousands of students in the spring. Any idea how many
parents/relatives/friends would be come staunch democrats (altho
I remember a time in Texas if you admitted to being a registered
Republican you could never get a job!) really fast! If you
think TFRs are a problem, consider on-the-ground security.

[Bill Denton]

And shortly before the events, it was announced that the Bushs' would be
hosting large private parties in Austin and Boston for their daughters. So,
the President was in town, he just did not attend the public graduation
ceremonies...



"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> It was announced a few weeks ago that the Bush's would NOT attend
> the graduation ceremonies for either daughter to avoid really
> annoying everyone else attending.
>
> UT graduates thousands of students in the spring. Any idea how many
> parents/relatives/friends would be come staunch democrats (altho
> I remember a time in Texas if you admitted to being a registered
> Republican you could never get a job!) really fast! If you
> think TFRs are a problem, consider on-the-ground security.
>

[Newps]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:

You're right, only 5 1/2 more years. Would you like some cheese with that
whine?

[Karl Treier]

What and you think Kerry would give up the protection the TFR's offer

[Dave]

Newps wrote:

> You're right, only 5 1/2 more years. Would you like some cheese with that
> whine?

Not if my vote counts *this* time, although I only negate NEWPS vote.

<G>

Pass the crackers.

~D

[Newps]

"Karl Treier" > wrote in message
...
> What and you think Kerry would give up the protection the TFR's offer

You ask that like he has a choice.

[Newps]

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Newps wrote:
>
> > You're right, only 5 1/2 more years. Would you like some cheese with
that
> > whine?
>
> Not if my vote counts *this* time, although I only negate NEWPS vote.

Sorry, we got you the electronic touch screen. Your vote already doesn't
count.

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:

Yeah. Then we'll just have a different clown.

[Bob Fry]

Larry Dighera > writes:

> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:

Election 2004--The End of an Error

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Bob Fry > wrote:

> Larry Dighera > writes:
>
> > Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>
> Election 2004--The End of an Error


....... The Beginning of Another.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> Larry Dighera > writes:
>
> > Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>
> Election 2004--The End of an Error


Is there any indication that the TFR situation will change depending on the
outcome of the election?

I am guessing that the only thing that will change is the reduction of TFRs
due to the end of campaigning.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > Election 2004--The End of an Error
>
>
> ...... The Beginning of Another.


Are you always so optimistic?

[Blanche]

The new term for the movable TFR (as in car travel from the airport
to wherever...) is the FRZ.

Perfectly chosen acronym. We've just FRoZen the entire area.

[S Green]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
>
...
> > >
> > > Election 2004--

Send in the Clowns

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 16:29:34 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>
>Yeah. Then we'll just have a different clown.
>

Perhaps the next one won't be a monosynaptic. :-)
--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:52 -0600, "Newps" >
wrote in Message-Id: >:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>
>You're right, only 5 1/2 more years. Would you like some cheese with that
>whine?
>

Kerry Surges Ahead in 12 Crucial Swing States as Bush Poll Ratings
Plummet

By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
27 May 2004

George Bush has had a warning shot from the crucial battleground
stateslikely to decide the outcome of the presidential election where
his rival John Kerry is surging ahead.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=525272

--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> >Yeah. Then we'll just have a different clown.
>
> Perhaps the next one won't be a monosynaptic. :-)

We can hope. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Rene Felker]

Do you really think that if the Dems get in charge that the "Rich"
pilots with their private plans will be treated any better.




On Fri, 28 May 2004 13:58:39 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>
>Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>AVflash Volume 10, Number 22a -- May 23, 2004
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>THE TFR THAT WAS, THE PRESIDENT THAT WASN'T ... THERE
>Saturday (according to a TFR issued May 20) saw the airspace around
>Austin (Texas) Bergstrom International Airport restricted for GA
>traffic and open for the president ... who showed up but then skipped
>the event he was in town to see. Alas, the Temporary Flight
>Restriction, which read in part, "AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE
>PROHIBITED WITHIN 30 NMR UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL1801" ... and then
>in part two... "ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE 30 NMR TFR SHALL
>BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR OR VFR FLIGHT PLAN" was offered to the flying
>public regardless of (clarity or) presidential presence. The
>restrictions were intended to allow presidential access to the area
>relatively free from free-range light aircraft and allow the proud
>Bush parents to witness the graduation of daughter Jenna ... who also
>didn't show up. Consistency, at least.
>http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/240-full.html#187342
>
>
>On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:32:13 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
>>
>>It looks like we're not the only ones who think baby Bush's 3,000+
>>square mile TFRs are too big:
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 50 December 12, 2003
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>PENNSYLVANIA LAWMAKERS CALL FOR SMALLER TFRs
>>Remember that poor pipeline patrol pilot who unwittingly flew over
>>the presidential motorcade in Philadelphia earlier this year? The
>>Pennsylvania legislature certainly does. AOPA President Phil Boyer
>>was the honored guest of state Rep. Gene McGill, an AOPA member, as
>>the House of Representatives on Monday passed, by a near-unanimous
>>vote, a resolution that calls on federal security officials to reduce
>>the size of temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) resulting from
>>presidential travel. The four-page resolution asks for authorities to
>>"reconsider the need to issue such restrictions based on nonspecific
>>threats and ways to improve the timely dissemination of flight
>>restriction information to pilots." The resolution will be sent to
>>key federal government officials. See AOPA Online
>>( http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-4-139x.html ).
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:06:37 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>
>>>On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 06:07:34 -0400, Cub Driver > wrote
>>>in Message-Id: >:
>>>
>>>>The prezdint is coming to Portsmouth and Manchester NH this week, and
>>>>AOPA reminds us that in such cases he is usually accompanied by a
>>>>60-mile TFR.
>>>
>>>Right. Baby Bush inflicts a 60 nm diameter no-fly-zone on the NAS
>>>wherever he goes in this country. They call it a 30 nm TFR, but it's
>>>really 2,826 nautical miles square, or 3,291 statute miles square!
>>>
>>>All he has to do to defeat the Democrats next year is to be near their
>>>convention site during its duration; air transportation will be
>>>halted.
>
>--
>
>Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
> -- Larry Dighera,

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Rene Felker" > wrote in message
...
> Do you really think that if the Dems get in charge that the "Rich"
> pilots with their private plans will be treated any better.
>

Does anyone think they won't?

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> wrote:

> > Do you really think that if the Dems get in charge that the "Rich"
> > pilots with their private plans will be treated any better.
>
> Does anyone think they won't?

I'm quite confident that things will be worse if flip-flop
and his cronies are in charge.

--
Bob Noel

[David Reinhart]

Well, Kerry has said that he thinks the security measures put in place for the
DNC is Boston are too extreme.

Dave Reinhart


Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Larry Dighera > writes:
> >
> > > Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
> >
> > Election 2004--The End of an Error
>
> Is there any indication that the TFR situation will change depending on the
> outcome of the election?
>
> I am guessing that the only thing that will change is the reduction of TFRs
> due to the end of campaigning.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> > wrote:
>
> > > Do you really think that if the Dems get in charge that the "Rich"
> > > pilots with their private plans will be treated any better.
> >
> > Does anyone think they won't?
>
> I'm quite confident that things will be worse if flip-flop
> and his cronies are in charge.

True enough...but not significantly worse.

[Tom A. Carlson]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:

>[bunch of lifted text snipped]

You're joking, right, and not just clueless? Kerry wouldn't have massive
TFRs and would blink before shutting down airspace and airports for himself,
the no bill writing Senator? The entire Eastern Massachusetts region is
being shut this summer down on behalf of Kerry. Amtrak trains, commuter
trains, major commuter rail station, Interstates, major highways, secondary
roads, tunnels, bridges, buses, trolleys, and a major rapid transit station,
all to be shut down. Closed. Mayor Bloomberg has said the same will not
happen in New York which has nearly identical proximities from their arena
to their transportation hub (Penn Station). The Democrat response: take the
week off, or work from home. (Great advice to give a nurse, a waiter, a
carpenter, a janitor).

These are the same people that whine that the working class people are a
paycheck away from poverty and/or homelessness; now they tell everybody to
skip a week of work on their behalf. Not to mention the magnitude of
business lost, especially to the damned small business owners.

And you believe that John F. Kerry would have any qualms about a major
disruption to general aviation? This is the same person that had a Fire
Hydrant moved away from his Beacon Hill Boston townhouse because of the
terrible inconvenience to him. The same person that tells people to get
out of the way whereever he goes because "Do You Know Who I AM?
---

"The biggest problem: The convention's at Fleet Center, and Fleet is right
next to North Station — the transportation hub of the Hub. It includes a
commuter-rail station and a subway stop, both of which will be closed.

Worse, the city's major north-south thoroughfare, I-93, runs underground
right next to the Fleet Center — and the Secret Service demands it be shut
down for hours each day, including the entire afternoon commute, and not
just in the affected area, but for miles in either direction. Bridges and
tunnels will also be blocked."
-- Beantown Lockdown - NY Post
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/21741.htm

---

"In the space of two months, the Democratic National Convention has gone
from a $154 million boon to Boston to a potential $50 million hit to the
local economy as businesses absorb the magnitude of the announced highway,
street, and mass-transit closings.

Economists' conservative estimates of the loss range from $34.3 million to
$49.8 million for the week, but some forecasts say the potential losses
could be much higher if the effect on suburban communities is factored in as
well. Before the release of new traffic information, the convention had been
pegged in estimates at costing businesses $13 million, according to the
Beacon Hill Institute."
Convention Bust -- Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/conventions/articles/2004/05/22/convention_bust_may_reach_50m_boston_globe/

TinyUrl Version:
http://tinyurl.com/yurqv

[Blanche]

Am I glad I live where no one wants to visit for more than a few
hours (the entire Mountain Time Zone -- we're ignored all the time).

Bush will be here Mon-Tues this week (Denver and COS) mostly to
visit the USAF Academy for graduation. Reading the NOTAM is fun.
The USAF Thunderbirds are explicitly excluded from the no-fly zone.

(*snicker*)

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> wrote:

> > > > Do you really think that if the Dems get in charge that the "Rich"
> > > > pilots with their private plans will be treated any better.
> > >
> > > Does anyone think they won't?
> >
> > I'm quite confident that things will be worse if flip-flop
> > and his cronies are in charge.
>
> True enough...but not significantly worse.

wrt flying, no argument. One reason I didn't upgrade to a bigger
better airplane is that I fully expect that flying in the northeast
will become virtually impossible inside of 10 years.

--
Bob Noel

[Tom A. Carlson]

David Reinhart wrote:

> Well, Kerry has said that he thinks the security measures put in place for the
> DNC is Boston are too extreme.

Yeah, that's why the Democrats have happily accepted them and told everybody with
a job to take the week off right? Meanwhile Mayor of New York has stated that
Penn Station will remain operating during the RNC convention after Boston
transportation is paralyzed on behalf of Kerry.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:18:48 -0400, Tom A. Carlson wrote:

>"The biggest problem: The convention's at Fleet Center, and Fleet is right
>next to North Station — the transportation hub of the Hub. It includes a
>commuter-rail station and a subway stop, both of which will be closed.
>
>Worse, the city's major north-south thoroughfare, I-93, runs underground
>right next to the Fleet Center — and the Secret Service demands it be shut
>down for hours each day, including the entire afternoon commute, and not
>just in the affected area, but for miles in either direction. Bridges and
>tunnels will also be blocked."
> -- Beantown Lockdown - NY Post
>http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/21741.htm


whoever is in charge, you'll have those restrictions.
well, either you are very happy with them or it's time to kick some
people's ass. You know, _we_ the people ....

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:18:48 -0400, Tom A. Carlson wrote:
>
> >"The biggest problem: The convention's at Fleet Center, and Fleet is right
> >next to North Station — the transportation hub of the Hub. It includes a
> >commuter-rail station and a subway stop, both of which will be closed.
> >
> >Worse, the city's major north-south thoroughfare, I-93, runs underground
> >right next to the Fleet Center — and the Secret Service demands it be shut
> >down for hours each day, including the entire afternoon commute, and not
> >just in the affected area, but for miles in either direction. Bridges and
> >tunnels will also be blocked."
> > -- Beantown Lockdown - NY Post
> >http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/21741.htm
>
>
> whoever is in charge, you'll have those restrictions.
> well, either you are very happy with them or it's time to kick some
> people's ass. You know, _we_ the people ....
>


Trouble is -- we'd run out of kicking feet before we run out of asses to
kick!

[John Gaquin]

Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."

3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.

[Blanche]

Folks -- time to remember....whoever is living in the white house does
not dictate security measures. It's the USSS (US Secret Service).
And it's unlikely that any president is ever going to override them
for anything. If the massive hose-up for Boston is not grounds for being
overridden, then nothing is. Security issues and management have been
getting more and more strict the past 30 years. It's just more
visible now.

[S Green]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:18:48 -0400, Tom A. Carlson wrote:
>
> >"The biggest problem: The convention's at Fleet Center, and Fleet is
right
> >next to North Station - the transportation hub of the Hub. It includes a
> >commuter-rail station and a subway stop, both of which will be closed.
> >
> >Worse, the city's major north-south thoroughfare, I-93, runs underground
> >right next to the Fleet Center - and the Secret Service demands it be
shut
> >down for hours each day, including the entire afternoon commute, and not
> >just in the affected area, but for miles in either direction. Bridges and
> >tunnels will also be blocked."
> > -- Beantown Lockdown - NY Post
> >http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/21741.htm
>
>
> whoever is in charge, you'll have those restrictions.
> well, either you are very happy with them or it's time to kick some
> people's ass. You know, _we_ the people ....
>
"We the people" can do squat!

[Martin Hotze]

On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:27:42 +0100, S Green wrote:

>> whoever is in charge, you'll have those restrictions.
>> well, either you are very happy with them or it's time to kick some
>> people's ass. You know, _we_ the people ....
>>
>"We the people" can do squat!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ooo---oooh land of the free .... land of the brave ...

scnr.
:-)

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
> Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
>
> 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.

[Martin Hotze]

On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:55:04 -0700, Tom Sixkiller wrote:

>> Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
>>
>> 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
>The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.

and 3,291 x 3,291 (3,291 miles square) equals 10,830,681

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

[John Gaquin]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Gaquin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
> >
> > 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
> The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.

<sigh>

find a fourth grade math book, and look up the difference between "xxx
square miles" and "xxx miles square".

[Roger Hamlett]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "John Gaquin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
> > >
> > > 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
> > The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.
>
> <sigh>
>
> find a fourth grade math book, and look up the difference between "xxx
> square miles" and "xxx miles square".
Er.
That is _exactly_ what he is saying. The title of this thread, is '3291
statute miles square', which would be 10830681 square miles. As he says,
this would cover the whole of the US and Canade, plus a bit over. He was
simply pointing out that the thread should really be entitled either 'about
58 miles square', or '3291 square miles', rather than the current title...

Best Wishes

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Roger Hamlett" > wrote in message
news:EBHuc.220$vQ3.125@newsfe3-gui...
>
> "John Gaquin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "John Gaquin" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
> > > >
> > > > 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and
Canada.
> > > The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> > find a fourth grade math book, and look up the difference between "xxx
> > square miles" and "xxx miles square".
> Er.
> That is _exactly_ what he is saying. The title of this thread, is '3291
> statute miles square', which would be 10830681 square miles. As he says,
> this would cover the whole of the US and Canade, plus a bit over. He was
> simply pointing out that the thread should really be entitled either
'about
> 58 miles square', or '3291 square miles', rather than the current title...

Cute, isn't it, when people try to play word games and then don't use them
properly.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:55:04 -0700, Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> >> Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
> >>
> >> 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
> >The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.
>
> and 3,291 x 3,291 (3,291 miles square) equals 10,830,681

No, that would be miles *squared*, not miles square.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Peter]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>
> Martin Hotze wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:55:04 -0700, Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Ummmm .... I think you mean "square miles."
>>>>
>>>>3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
>>>
>>>The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.
>>
>>and 3,291 x 3,291 (3,291 miles square) equals 10,830,681
>
>
> No, that would be miles *squared*, not miles square.

"Miles square" is the correct term and is frequently used to describe
plots of land, such as townships and the District of Columbia (a square
region with each side being 10 miles long. See for example:
http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Historical_Sketches_of_the_Ten_Miles_Square_Formin g_the_District_of_Columbia/1404728007/
and http://www.wordiq.com/dictionary/township.html

I've sometime also seen the term "miles squared" as having the same
meaning, but it is much less common.

[Martin Hotze]

On Mon, 31 May 2004 15:29:51 GMT, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>> >> 3291 miles square would cover approximately all of the US and Canada.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >The US is 3.2 MILLION square miles.
>>
>> and 3,291 x 3,291 (3,291 miles square) equals 10,830,681
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>No, that would be miles *squared*, not miles square.

I only inserted the original reference ...

#m

f-up2poster

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

[John Gaquin]

"Roger Hamlett" > wrote in message
news:EBHuc.220
>
> As he says,
> this would cover the whole of the US and Canade, plus a bit over. He was
> simply pointing out that the thread should really be entitled either
'about
> 58 miles square', or '3291 square miles', rather than the current title...

Tom didn't say that. I said that, in response to Larry's original post,
wherein no reference was made to the subject number, only the 30NM diameter
of the TFR. Tom pointed out that the US comprises 3.2 M sq miles, with the
MILLION in caps, emphasizing what he seems to see as some error on my part.
Please explain what error I made.

[David Reinhart]

I really don't know why NYC is getting such a different security treatment than
Boston, and nobody in the press seems to be asking that question. I think some of it
is because MA has a collective guilt trip going because two of the 9/11 planes took
off from Logan. MA was one of the first states to order more security at GA airports
and it was here that the state tried to declare and enforce a :no fly" zone over
Quabbin Reservoir, where Boston gets its water. State police at Logan are carrying
submachine guns now, too. This place is officially paranoid.

Dave Reinhart


"Tom A. Carlson" wrote:

> David Reinhart wrote:
>
> > Well, Kerry has said that he thinks the security measures put in place for the
> > DNC is Boston are too extreme.
>
> Yeah, that's why the Democrats have happily accepted them and told everybody with
> a job to take the week off right? Meanwhile Mayor of New York has stated that
> Penn Station will remain operating during the RNC convention after Boston
> transportation is paralyzed on behalf of Kerry.

[Doug]

Yeah Lord knows we dont want a leader who does what he says. Think of
the fun we'll have with Kerry ....Every day a different stance on every
issue!!! And you thought it was fun riding the "gravatron" you haven't
even begun to spin If Kerry gets elected.

And while he has us dizzy...

We'll get to see him taking the money out of our wallets and
re-distributing it to those that he sees fit. We'll get to see our
heritage and history completed removed from our view. We'll get to see
the Jews pushed into the Sea. We'll get to see terrorists murdering our
citizens, cause we know how much respect Isalmo-facists respect
Democrats and appeasement (Tell them all about it Jimmy Carter).

And for your choice of Kerry we will also get to ...

Pay 15.00 for avgas because thats our fair share and have to contribute
to the Kyoto treaty. Dont wanna disturb the artic fly and their
breeding cycle in ANWAR.

We will get the UN (dictators, socialsits and despotits) to tell us when
and where we'll use our defense to protect us. Only after they have
divvied up the latest oil for money proceeds.

We will get Abortion on demand, syringes in our schools and
homosexuality projected as the way it should be.



Reagan reminds us that leadership has burdens, burdens we all must
carry.. but it must be carried and acted on. Lets not waiver in our way
of life and submit to the easy way out.

I know a great way to get rid of the TFRs ... get rid of the people that
have caused them in the first place, not elect their friends into
office.






Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

>
> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> AVflash Volume 10, Number 22a -- May 23, 2004
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> THE TFR THAT WAS, THE PRESIDENT THAT WASN'T ... THERE
> Saturday (according to a TFR issued May 20) saw the airspace around
> Austin (Texas) Bergstrom International Airport restricted for GA
> traffic and open for the president ... who showed up but then skipped
> the event he was in town to see. Alas, the Temporary Flight
> Restriction, which read in part, "AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE
> PROHIBITED WITHIN 30 NMR UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL1801" ... and then
> in part two... "ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE 30 NMR TFR SHALL
> BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR OR VFR FLIGHT PLAN" was offered to the flying
> public regardless of (clarity or) presidential presence. The
> restrictions were intended to allow presidential access to the area
> relatively free from free-range light aircraft and allow the proud
> Bush parents to witness the graduation of daughter Jenna ... who also
> didn't show up. Consistency, at least.
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/240-full.html#187342
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:32:13 GMT, Larry Dighera >
> wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
>>
>>It looks like we're not the only ones who think baby Bush's 3,000+
>>square mile TFRs are too big:
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 50 December 12, 2003
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>PENNSYLVANIA LAWMAKERS CALL FOR SMALLER TFRs
>>Remember that poor pipeline patrol pilot who unwittingly flew over
>>the presidential motorcade in Philadelphia earlier this year? The
>>Pennsylvania legislature certainly does. AOPA President Phil Boyer
>>was the honored guest of state Rep. Gene McGill, an AOPA member, as
>>the House of Representatives on Monday passed, by a near-unanimous
>>vote, a resolution that calls on federal security officials to reduce
>>the size of temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) resulting from
>>presidential travel. The four-page resolution asks for authorities to
>>"reconsider the need to issue such restrictions based on nonspecific
>>threats and ways to improve the timely dissemination of flight
>>restriction information to pilots." The resolution will be sent to
>>key federal government officials. See AOPA Online
>>( http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-4-139x.html ).
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:06:37 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>
>>>On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 06:07:34 -0400, Cub Driver >
>>>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>>
>>>>The prezdint is coming to Portsmouth and Manchester NH this week,
>>>>and AOPA reminds us that in such cases he is usually accompanied by
>>>>a 60-mile TFR.
>>>
>>>Right. Baby Bush inflicts a 60 nm diameter no-fly-zone on the NAS
>>>wherever he goes in this country. They call it a 30 nm TFR, but it's
>>>really 2,826 nautical miles square, or 3,291 statute miles square!
>>>
>>>All he has to do to defeat the Democrats next year is to be near
>>>their convention site during its duration; air transportation will be
>>>halted.
>
> --
>
> Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
> -- Larry Dighera,

[Larry Dighera]

>Larry Dighera > wrote in
:
>
>>
>> Fortunately, we won't have to put up with this clown much longer:
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> AVflash Volume 10, Number 22a -- May 23, 2004
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> THE TFR THAT WAS, THE PRESIDENT THAT WASN'T ... THERE
>> Saturday (according to a TFR issued May 20) saw the airspace around
>> Austin (Texas) Bergstrom International Airport restricted for GA
>> traffic and open for the president ... who showed up but then skipped
>> the event he was in town to see. Alas, the Temporary Flight
>> Restriction, which read in part, "AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE
>> PROHIBITED WITHIN 30 NMR UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL1801" ... and then
>> in part two... "ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE 30 NMR TFR SHALL
>> BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR OR VFR FLIGHT PLAN" was offered to the flying
>> public regardless of (clarity or) presidential presence. The
>> restrictions were intended to allow presidential access to the area
>> relatively free from free-range light aircraft and allow the proud
>> Bush parents to witness the graduation of daughter Jenna ... who also
>> didn't show up. Consistency, at least.
>> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/240-full.html#187342
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:32:13 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>> wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>
>>>
>>>It looks like we're not the only ones who think baby Bush's 3,000+
>>>square mile TFRs are too big:
>>>
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 50 December 12, 2003
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>PENNSYLVANIA LAWMAKERS CALL FOR SMALLER TFRs
>>>Remember that poor pipeline patrol pilot who unwittingly flew over
>>>the presidential motorcade in Philadelphia earlier this year? The
>>>Pennsylvania legislature certainly does. AOPA President Phil Boyer
>>>was the honored guest of state Rep. Gene McGill, an AOPA member, as
>>>the House of Representatives on Monday passed, by a near-unanimous
>>>vote, a resolution that calls on federal security officials to reduce
>>>the size of temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) resulting from
>>>presidential travel. The four-page resolution asks for authorities to
>>>"reconsider the need to issue such restrictions based on nonspecific
>>>threats and ways to improve the timely dissemination of flight
>>>restriction information to pilots." The resolution will be sent to
>>>key federal government officials. See AOPA Online
>>>( http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-4-139x.html ).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:06:37 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>>>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 06:07:34 -0400, Cub Driver >
>>>>wrote in Message-Id: >:
>>>>
>>>>>The prezdint is coming to Portsmouth and Manchester NH this week,
>>>>>and AOPA reminds us that in such cases he is usually accompanied by
>>>>>a 60-mile TFR.
>>>>
>>>>Right. Baby Bush inflicts a 60 nm diameter no-fly-zone on the NAS
>>>>wherever he goes in this country. They call it a 30 nm TFR, but it's
>>>>really 2,826 nautical miles square, or 3,291 statute miles square!
>>>>
>>>>All he has to do to defeat the Democrats next year is to be near
>>>>their convention site during its duration; air transportation will be
>>>>halted.
>>
>
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:33:09 GMT, Doug > wrote in
Message-Id: >:

>Yeah Lord knows we dont want a leader who does what he says.

No. You'd rather have a leader who tortures helpless people, is then
publicly exposed for his brutality, and in a moment of chagrin offers
to destroy the prison in which the atrocities occurred, then realizes
he'll have no place to confine the bad guys, so he will construct a
NEW prison with YOUR tax dollars.

Baby Bush's record is clear; he's a metaphysical cretin who lacks
forethought.

>Think of
>the fun we'll have with Kerry ....Every day a different stance on every
>issue!!! And you thought it was fun riding the "gravatron" you haven't
>even begun to spin If Kerry gets elected.
>
>And while he has us dizzy...
>
>We'll get to see him taking the money out of our wallets and
>re-distributing it to those that he sees fit.

Perhaps Kerry'll be successful in making corporations pay their fair
share of income taxes, so there'll be plenty of funds for meritorious
educational programs; then your progeny won't have to live in a
devolving nation of illiterates.

As it is, baby Bush's war is projected to create a 7-trillion dollar
deficit that your children and theirs will be paying for years and
years. When he took office, Clinton left him a monetary surplus.

And corporate energy scammer Kenneth Lay (Nicknamed "Kenny Boy"
by the president himself
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1779445.stm>a Bush family friend
<http://www.apfn.org/enron/friend.htm>) is still an unindited free man
with the $145 million retirement money of his former employees safely
tucked away. The $550,025.00 that the Enron Corp. gave Bush over the
years supports the notion that Texas oil men seem to stick together
(pun intended).

>We'll get to see our heritage and history completed [sic] removed from our view.

Oh, you mean like the last remaining stands of noble old-growth trees
that have withstood millennia of natural assault only to fall under
the loggers saws at the GOP's direction. The GOP represents an
attitude of pillage and plundering. They don't represent the high
ideals of this nation's founding fathers, nor its people.

>We'll get to see
>the Jews pushed into the Sea. We'll get to see terrorists murdering our
>citizens, cause we know how much respect Isalmo-facists respect
>Democrats and appeasement (Tell them all about it Jimmy Carter).

It would seem that the largest terrorist attacks in the history of
this country occurred while baby Bush has held office. Talk about
spinning... You're as bad as the airlines (whose aircraft were used
by the terrorists) inciting public outcry against General Aviation in
the name of security.

>And for your choice of Kerry we will also get to ...

I made no statement about Kerry being my choice; you made another
erroneous assumption.

>Pay [$]15.00 for avgas because thats our fair share and have to contribute
>to the Kyoto treaty. Dont wanna disturb the artic fly and their
>breeding cycle in ANWAR. [This sentence fragment reveals your level of literacy.]

Short term gains can often mean long term repercussions.

>We will get the UN (dictators, socialsits and despotits) to tell us when
>and where we'll use our defense to protect us. Only after they have
>divvied up the latest oil for money proceeds.

That's pure conjecture, there's no basis in fact for such an absurd
assumption. It reveals your desperate attempt to sway opinion with
emotion rather than fact.

>We will get Abortion on demand, syringes in our schools and
>homosexuality projected as the way it should be.

Oh brother! Your imbecilic diatribe makes me question responding to
such a meritless blather.

>Reagan reminds us that leadership has burdens, burdens we all must
>carry.. but it must be carried and acted on. Lets not waiver in our way
>of life and submit to the easy way out.

Regan reminds me that US government drug running to pay for guns is
the GOP's idea of proper Presidential conduct.
<http://www2.moment.net/phorums/read.php3?num=1&id=18892&thread=18758>

>I know a great way to get rid of the TFRs ... get rid of the people that
>have caused them in the first place, not elect their friends into
>office.

Are you referring to Tom Ridge? Minitta? Chenney? Ashcroft?
Pleeezzzzee.


<rant mode>

It seems to me, that the GOP is run by and for large American
corporations, not "We the people." The founding fathers didn't intend
for soulless entities to enact laws and dictate our nation's public
policy; they intended "the people" (not corporations nor religions)
actively govern themselves and the nation through their duly elected
representatives.

Radio and TV did not exist when our nation was conceived, and its
governance suffers for the lack of anticipation of those mass media by
our founding fathers. As it stands today, the only way for an
individual to become President of the USA is for him/her to have more
media exposure than his/her opponent(s). Media exposure costs
enormous amounts of money. Because most large corporations pay little
income tax, they can afford to fund the campaigns of candidates who
are willing to pander to their desires, rather than represent the
people of this nation as the founding fathers intended. The candidate
without such corporate backing has no hope of being elected today.

When will voters awaken to the exploitative GOP boondoggle? The GOP's
blatant disregard for the Constitutional protections of the nation's
people from government abuse has become so glaringly apparent under
the current regime, that frankly, I'm amazed that they haven't been
forcefully removed from office for the crimes they perpetrate daily.

Wake up, America! Take back your government, and make American
corporations pay their fair share of taxes just like you are made to
pay yours. Don't let the soleless corporate entities govern you
through their purchase of your elected representatives. Return
America to its people.

I find your expectation, that a General Aviation airman (Kerry) in the
highest office in the land (world?) will benefit the flying readership
of this aviation newsgroup LESS than the current shortsighted,
mono-synaptic, environment raping, irrationally mystic, marginally
literate, rednecked cowboy, to be patently absurd.

But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

</rant mode> :-)


--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Allen]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
> -- Larry Dighera,

Gadzooks Larry, this thread and the Florida recounts are long over. Get off
the political crap here!

Allen