Air Conditioning System for Homebuilts?

[JPAviation]

Hi,
Here is a new design challenge for those of you with homebuilts with all the
bells and whistles.

The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered air
conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be mounted on the
engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably putting A/C in a homebuilt
airplane. What comes to mind is one of these systems mounted in the aft
fuselage (one way to overcome a nose heavy design) with a duct (with a
retractable scoop) for air for the condensor.

For some details go to:

http://www.denso.co.jp/motorshow/2003/en/presskit/product_electric/

Fly safe, have fun, be cool,
Jim Payne

[Morgans]

"JPAviation" > wrote in message
...
>> The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered air
> conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be mounted on the
> engine.

> Jim Payne
>

It's all about weight. How much? Plus how much bigger ya gotta make the
alternator.

What's wrong with an engine mounted AC?
--
Jim in NC

[Philippe Vessaire]

JPAviation a écrit:



> The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered
> air conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be
> mounted on the engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably
> putting A/C in a homebuilt airplane. What comes to mind is one of
> these systems mounted in the aft fuselage (one way to overcome a
> nose heavy design) with a duct (with a retractable scoop) for air
> for the condensor.

I know only one way to have a cool flight during summer: I climb, and
when I read 18°C (65°F) OAT, I level off.


By
--
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Ernest Christley]

Philippe Vessaire wrote:
>
>>The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered
>>air conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be
>>mounted on the engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably
>>putting A/C in a homebuilt airplane. What comes to mind is one of
>>these systems mounted in the aft fuselage (one way to overcome a
>>nose heavy design) with a duct (with a retractable scoop) for air
>>for the condensor.
>
>
> I know only one way to have a cool flight during summer: I climb, and
> when I read 18°C (65°F) OAT, I level off.
>
>
> By

No good for a 45min taxi on the ground in Florida summer. But what's
wrong with an icebox. Lightweight aluminum box, with passages through
the bottom. Pass vent air through it and into the cockpit. Fill the
box with ice and it should last until you reach the 65* air. Very
little extra weight in the winter, or when you're in the cruise
configuration (it'll have melted by then.

--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
alleviated by information and experience."
Veeduber

[Philippe Vessaire]

Ernest Christley a écrit:

> Philippe Vessaire wrote:


>> I know only one way to have a cool flight during summer: I climb,
>> and when I read 18°C (65°F) OAT, I level off.


> No good for a 45min taxi on the ground in Florida summer. But
Sorry, I never have 45mn taxi here, on light aviation airfieds...
5mn is a maxi....

45mn or more is on commercials airports, in "my" A320.

By
--
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[[email protected]]

JPAviation > wrote:
: The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered air
: conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be mounted on the
: engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably putting A/C in a homebuilt
: airplane. What comes to mind is one of these systems mounted in the aft
: fuselage (one way to overcome a nose heavy design) with a duct (with a
: retractable scoop) for air for the condensor.

Probably not feasible. Even a small AC unit will require many hundreds of
watts.... usually 1kW or more. If you do the math, at 14v, that's almost 100 amps for
just the AC. The hybrid can do it because it's got access to high-power (higher voltage
too) electricity. Think of how many electric AC's are in conventional cars.... and how
you have to turn off the AC in a four-banger going uphill. It takes a (relative) lot of
power to run an AC compressor.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[nafod40]

wrote:
> JPAviation > wrote:
> : The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered air
> : conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be mounted on the
> : engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably putting A/C in a homebuilt
> : airplane. What comes to mind is one of these systems mounted in the aft
> : fuselage (one way to overcome a nose heavy design) with a duct (with a
> : retractable scoop) for air for the condensor.
>
> Probably not feasible.

I've occasionally wondered whether a vortex tube wouldn't work for A/C.
No moving parts whatsoever, all you need is airflow into it. The
efficiency is low, and it may require compressed air instead of just
airflow, but it'd be worth a look.

Just google on "vortex tube" for more info. Here's one decent site.

http://www.visi.com/~darus/hilsch/

[Scott]

It's even easier to fly a Corben Junior Ace...full time AC!

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die


"JPAviation" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
> Here is a new design challenge for those of you with homebuilts with all
the
> bells and whistles.
>
> The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered air
> conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be mounted on the
> engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably putting A/C in a
homebuilt
> airplane. What comes to mind is one of these systems mounted in the aft
> fuselage (one way to overcome a nose heavy design) with a duct (with a
> retractable scoop) for air for the condensor.
>
> For some details go to:
>
> http://www.denso.co.jp/motorshow/2003/en/presskit/product_electric/
>
> Fly safe, have fun, be cool,
> Jim Payne
>

[Richard Lamb]

Scott wrote:
>
> It's even easier to fly a Corben Junior Ace...full time AC!
>
> --
> Scott


Hi Scott!

I know what you mean.

A few years back we had an ice age here in Texas when it
actually got cold in the winter. Burrr!
Nearly snowed in San Antonio!

Guys would make one (quick!) pass around the pattern and
crowd around the fire and just LIE about it!

"Naw, not that ccccold up there".
"You get used to it!"
"Thick air today. Lotta lift in it."

And so the next brave soul screws up his courage and blasts
around the pattern (real quick) once.

Ah, the joys of an open cockpit.

Richard Lamb

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 06:23:30 GMT, Richard Lamb >
wrote:

>A few years back we had an ice age here in Texas when it
>actually got cold in the winter. Burrr!
>Nearly snowed in San Antonio!
>
>Guys would make one (quick!) pass around the pattern and
>crowd around the fire and just LIE about it!
>
>"Naw, not that ccccold up there".
>"You get used to it!"
>"Thick air today. Lotta lift in it."
>
>And so the next brave soul screws up his courage and blasts
>around the pattern (real quick) once.
>
>Ah, the joys of an open cockpit.

Hmmmff. Sam Houston is probably turning over in his grave.

I only flew twice in the last month, but both times it was below
freezing...and I stayed up for almost an hour, each time. The last time, I
had to abort landing at one airport because the snowplows hadn't got done
clearing it...and when I buzzed ^H^H^H^H flew a low approach at another, I
got to wave at the kids sledding down the hill at the end of the runway.

I had some fun the first time, too. It was an absolutely clear, beautiful
day, with the ground temperature at freezing and a 10 knot wind blowing
right down the runway. I was wearing a turtleneck under my Fly Baby denim
shirt, but my leather jacket didn't provide enough warmth even during
preflight. So I added a sweatshirt. For the first time in several years,
I pulled my spandex ski-mask out of the flight bag, and added the brand-new
fleece-lined leather gloves Santa had brought.

The temperfoam pad of Moonraker's seat was ice-hard when I slid down into
the cockpit. The bulky clothes made it a bit tougher to gather the safety
harness straps and plug the headset into the comm system. I was sweating a
bit by the time I'd finally got myself attached to the airplane. The
temperfoam had thawed a bit by then; I made a mental note to re-tighten the
straps before takeoff.

The Continental spun to life, and the propwash hurriedly made me drag up
the ski mask to cover my nose and lower the goggles.

After that, though...the flight was heaven. The airplane performed like a
wonder in the crisp air, aided by a stiff 10 knot wind right down the
runway. It shot off the ground like it was flung by a rubber-band
catapult. As we rose, the snow-capped peaks of the Cascade range lifted
above the horizon. A few bumps due to the wind, otherwise smooth.

I did my usual cold-weather flying routine: Fly to the nearby airports,
and do either a landing or a low pass so people could point and say to each
other, "Look at that idiot in the open-cockpit airplane!" But I was
comfortable...the combination of the leather helmet, ski mask, silk scarf,
and turtleneck nicely kept the drafts away from any skin, and the cozy
cockpit and heater handled the rest.

Back to the home drome after forty-five minutes. I figured if I landed
immediately, my friends would nod knowingly and say, "Guess Ron got too
cold," so I shot some touch-and-goes first. As usual, the cold and the ski
mask made it tough to enunciate on the radio, but people seemed to be able
to decode calls like "Eye Baby Ayht four Ayht down ind f'r touch-and-o on
Eeee four."

After about a half-dozen bump-and-runs, I decided to call it a day. 'Raker
was a bit low on gas, and I prefer to tank up on Avgas in the winter. So I
taxied up to the gas pumps.

Next to the pumps, I saw the new airport manager (whom I know fairly well),
one of the airport staff, and a buddy huddled around an open equipment box
installed on the wind-swept ramp. The Superunicom was down, and they were
trying to get it working again.

It's a fact of life that if you live in the Seattle area and don't own an
open-cockpit airplane, you do NOT own much in the way of cold-weather gear.
Seattlites may own five brands of raincoats, but other than maybe a ski
jacket stuffed in the back of a closet, they're usually not equipped to
spend much time outdoors in the cold.

These three guys certainly weren't. With the stiff north wind, the
wind-chill factor was probably in the teens. The manager just had a
topcoat over his suit and the staffer a thin jacket. My buddy had a
leather jacket on, but none of them had gloves or anything on their heads
(old Swiss saying: If your feet are cold, put on your hat).

Me, on the other hand...I was still fairly comfortable. But I'm sure after
their time on the ramp, they probably *really* expected me to be
half-frozen. I shut down Moonraker, took off my headset, climbed out, and
strolled over to them, still wearing my helmet, ski mask, etc.

"You know," I said, eyeing the shivering forms before me, "I would have
picked a warmer day to work on that....." :-)


Ron Wanttaja

[Dude]

Ron,

Most folks in Texas don't have those nice scarves and turtlenecks and such.
The few folks that have any long underwear, have cotton ones too.

I would bet those guys were wearing a hunting jacket, leather gloves (likely
unlined), jeans, and boots (likewise uninsulated). Their necks were likely
well exposed to the cold, yet strangely still humid, air.

OUT



"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 06:23:30 GMT, Richard Lamb >
> wrote:
>
> >A few years back we had an ice age here in Texas when it
> >actually got cold in the winter. Burrr!
> >Nearly snowed in San Antonio!
> >
> >Guys would make one (quick!) pass around the pattern and
> >crowd around the fire and just LIE about it!
> >
> >"Naw, not that ccccold up there".
> >"You get used to it!"
> >"Thick air today. Lotta lift in it."
> >
> >And so the next brave soul screws up his courage and blasts
> >around the pattern (real quick) once.
> >
> >Ah, the joys of an open cockpit.
>
> Hmmmff. Sam Houston is probably turning over in his grave.
>
> I only flew twice in the last month, but both times it was below
> freezing...and I stayed up for almost an hour, each time. The last time,
I
> had to abort landing at one airport because the snowplows hadn't got done
> clearing it...and when I buzzed ^H^H^H^H flew a low approach at another, I
> got to wave at the kids sledding down the hill at the end of the runway.
>
> I had some fun the first time, too. It was an absolutely clear, beautiful
> day, with the ground temperature at freezing and a 10 knot wind blowing
> right down the runway. I was wearing a turtleneck under my Fly Baby denim
> shirt, but my leather jacket didn't provide enough warmth even during
> preflight. So I added a sweatshirt. For the first time in several years,
> I pulled my spandex ski-mask out of the flight bag, and added the
brand-new
> fleece-lined leather gloves Santa had brought.
>
> The temperfoam pad of Moonraker's seat was ice-hard when I slid down into
> the cockpit. The bulky clothes made it a bit tougher to gather the safety
> harness straps and plug the headset into the comm system. I was sweating
a
> bit by the time I'd finally got myself attached to the airplane. The
> temperfoam had thawed a bit by then; I made a mental note to re-tighten
the
> straps before takeoff.
>
> The Continental spun to life, and the propwash hurriedly made me drag up
> the ski mask to cover my nose and lower the goggles.
>
> After that, though...the flight was heaven. The airplane performed like a
> wonder in the crisp air, aided by a stiff 10 knot wind right down the
> runway. It shot off the ground like it was flung by a rubber-band
> catapult. As we rose, the snow-capped peaks of the Cascade range lifted
> above the horizon. A few bumps due to the wind, otherwise smooth.
>
> I did my usual cold-weather flying routine: Fly to the nearby airports,
> and do either a landing or a low pass so people could point and say to
each
> other, "Look at that idiot in the open-cockpit airplane!" But I was
> comfortable...the combination of the leather helmet, ski mask, silk scarf,
> and turtleneck nicely kept the drafts away from any skin, and the cozy
> cockpit and heater handled the rest.
>
> Back to the home drome after forty-five minutes. I figured if I landed
> immediately, my friends would nod knowingly and say, "Guess Ron got too
> cold," so I shot some touch-and-goes first. As usual, the cold and the
ski
> mask made it tough to enunciate on the radio, but people seemed to be able
> to decode calls like "Eye Baby Ayht four Ayht down ind f'r touch-and-o on
> Eeee four."
>
> After about a half-dozen bump-and-runs, I decided to call it a day.
'Raker
> was a bit low on gas, and I prefer to tank up on Avgas in the winter. So
I
> taxied up to the gas pumps.
>
> Next to the pumps, I saw the new airport manager (whom I know fairly
well),
> one of the airport staff, and a buddy huddled around an open equipment box
> installed on the wind-swept ramp. The Superunicom was down, and they were
> trying to get it working again.
>
> It's a fact of life that if you live in the Seattle area and don't own an
> open-cockpit airplane, you do NOT own much in the way of cold-weather
gear.
> Seattlites may own five brands of raincoats, but other than maybe a ski
> jacket stuffed in the back of a closet, they're usually not equipped to
> spend much time outdoors in the cold.
>
> These three guys certainly weren't. With the stiff north wind, the
> wind-chill factor was probably in the teens. The manager just had a
> topcoat over his suit and the staffer a thin jacket. My buddy had a
> leather jacket on, but none of them had gloves or anything on their heads
> (old Swiss saying: If your feet are cold, put on your hat).
>
> Me, on the other hand...I was still fairly comfortable. But I'm sure
after
> their time on the ramp, they probably *really* expected me to be
> half-frozen. I shut down Moonraker, took off my headset, climbed out, and
> strolled over to them, still wearing my helmet, ski mask, etc.
>
> "You know," I said, eyeing the shivering forms before me, "I would have
> picked a warmer day to work on that....." :-)
>
>
> Ron Wanttaja

[Richard Lamb]

Dude wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> Most folks in Texas don't have those nice scarves and turtlenecks and such.
> The few folks that have any long underwear, have cotton ones too.
>
> I would bet those guys were wearing a hunting jacket, leather gloves (likely
> unlined), jeans, and boots (likewise uninsulated). Their necks were likely
> well exposed to the cold, yet strangely still humid, air.
>
> OUT
>

T-shirts today dude....

[StellaStar]

Ron W sez:
>With the stiff north wind, the
>wind-chill factor was probably in the teens.

Fifteen above? pfft.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 05 Feb 2004 04:41:32 GMT, (StellaStar) wrote:

>Ron W sez:
>>With the stiff north wind, the
>>wind-chill factor was probably in the teens.
>
>Fifteen above? pfft.

My sentiments exactly. I used to snowmobile in forty-below weather. Back
in my CAP cadet days, we had an overnight bivouac where it got to 18 below.

Folks around Seattle ain't used to it, though....

Ron Wanttaja

[John Ammeter]

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 04:56:43 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>On 05 Feb 2004 04:41:32 GMT, (StellaStar) wrote:
>
>>Ron W sez:
>>>With the stiff north wind, the
>>>wind-chill factor was probably in the teens.
>>
>>Fifteen above? pfft.
>
>My sentiments exactly. I used to snowmobile in forty-below weather. Back
>in my CAP cadet days, we had an overnight bivouac where it got to 18 below.
>
>Folks around Seattle ain't used to it, though....
>
>Ron Wanttaja

True, but are YOU used to it now??

John

[Dude]

HA! folks on this board often impress me with aviation, but this thread is
exposing your blustery sides.

I have been snow mobiling, and therefore I know about those suits that you
wear. This is no tough guy thing at all! My wife didn't even get cold at
60mph on a serious below zero day in Wyoming!

You have all dropped a notch! Get back to building things I don't understand
before I am completely let down. It would be a serious loss if I had to be
skeptical about your flying stories.



"StellaStar" > wrote in message
...
> Ron W sez:
> >With the stiff north wind, the
> >wind-chill factor was probably in the teens.
>
> Fifteen above? pfft.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 04:59:57 GMT, John Ammeter
> wrote:

>>My sentiments exactly. I used to snowmobile in forty-below weather. Back
>>in my CAP cadet days, we had an overnight bivouac where it got to 18 below.
>>
>>Folks around Seattle ain't used to it, though....
>>
>>Ron Wanttaja
>
>True, but are YOU used to it now??

Well, if'n I ain't, I SURE ain't gonna admit it here... :-)

Actually, was back in ND about two months ago. Got down to 8 degrees or
so. Definitely brisk, but certainly standable. Didn't feel much like
going flying, though.

Buried in my old stuff is some pictures I took, back when flying in the
winter in North Dakota. What's amazing about it is not only the
snow-covered ground, but that the horizon is a *hard* line. No haze.

Ron Wanttaja

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> Buried in my old stuff is some pictures I took, back when flying in the
> winter in North Dakota. What's amazing about it is not only the
> snow-covered ground, but that the horizon is a *hard* line. No haze.

When I flew in the San Francisco bay area, there was lots of haze from the
aerosols, etc, in the air. It was called an "articifical horizon."

Ed Wischmeyer

[Mike Wanninger]

I actually have seen something similar. I was looking at all the web sites and
specs on the new diesel aircraft engines and one of them is totally air cooled.
It does not have any external radiators for either oil or engine cooling. So
here do you get cabin heat?
It seems there is a lot of pressure on the trucking industry to stop idling the
engines all night for heat or air for the sleeper cabs. A company called
Bergstrom has created Nite Systems (www.nitesystems.com) to solve this problem.
A company called Espar (www.espar.com) actually makes the heaters and can resell
the Bergstrom air conditioners. Their web site shows a lot of the details.
Espar make several small self contained heater systems (i.e. heater, fan and
thermostat) that run off a 12-24 volt battery and uses either gasoline or diesel
for the heaters fuel. The small ones come in a 7K or 13.5K BTU and a thermostat
controls the fan thru four speeds. It is small enough to fit under a seat in a
truck and it weight about 6 lbs. The 7k unit is a small tube about 4.5" square
and 12" long that pulls air in one side and out the other end. Looks great to
warm a plane before the engine is started. Would be connected to the engine
fuel tank and with diesel an option, would be OK for the new DeltaHawk style
engines. The only question is how well it performs at altitude for full cabin
in-flight heating. But it looks great for a home built - one set of wires to
the battery and a connection to the fuel tank. Done.
They also have a low BTU (about 3,000) air conditioner that runs all night long
on a battery pack. The battery pack is about 130 lbs and too heavy for a plane,
but the air conditioner draw is low, runs on 12 volts and is totally self
contained. With only 3K BTU, I can see it used for pre-cooling a plane in a
hanger before starting the engine using an external plug and then holding the
cabin temp until altitude. It runs about 350 watts or 30 amps on a 12 volt
system. No problem for a modern alternator. Again small and compact - weights
about 70 lbs. The Espar web site shows entire air hander in a small tower that
would fit behind a seat.

Never got past the initial look since this is for a dream plane that most
likely will never get built.
But I always wondered if it would work.


Mike
(Just dreaming)


JPAviation wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Here is a new design challenge for those of you with homebuilts with all the
> bells and whistles.
>
> The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car has a Denso electrically powered air
> conditioning compressor that apparently does not need to be mounted on the
> engine. This offers the possibility of reasonably putting A/C in a homebuilt
> airplane. What comes to mind is one of these systems mounted in the aft
> fuselage (one way to overcome a nose heavy design) with a duct (with a
> retractable scoop) for air for the condensor.
>
> For some details go to:
>
> http://www.denso.co.jp/motorshow/2003/en/presskit/product_electric/
>
> Fly safe, have fun, be cool,
> Jim Payne