Crossing the Rockies in a 172

[Peter von Tresckow]

Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
route 66 on the way home.

What are some of the routes that would be acceptable in a 172SP or a
180 HP archer.

Thanks

Peter von Tresckow

P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
suggestions for that also??

[EDR]

In article >, Peter von
Tresckow > wrote:

> What are some of the routes that would be acceptable in a 172SP or a
> 180 HP archer.

The southern route has less/shorter exposure to the mountains.

[Rosspilot]

>. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
>suggestions for that also??

I took mountain instruction at Lake Tahoe airport. It was breathtaking and
spectacular.
www.Rosspilot.com

[Dan Thomas]

(Peter von Tresckow) wrote in message >...

> P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
> suggestions for that also??

Being Canadian, I don't have any suggestions for particular flight
schools, but I endorse your desire to get some dual in the Rocks
before going solo into them. There are fairly frequent accidents in
the Canadian Rockies among pilots who were unaware of the many and
various ways to get into trouble, and who weren't carrying any
survival gear or even warm clothing. They survive the crash only to
die of exposure. In the summertime, too. Or they wander off from the
wreck and become part of the food chain.
Wind, weather and getting lost figure prominently in mountain
accidents.

Dan

[Ronald Gardner]

First get some good information and or training on mountain flying.
Weather problems can become far more of a problem in a canyon at 11,000
ft. There are also rules on how to fly through a pass.

That said I once flew the pass just west of yellowstone unaware heading
west that it was just to the south on the other side. What a view! I
would also suggest a dip south to the grand canyon also a great view.

My trip was in a Mooney M20C and I had no problems.

Ron Gardner

Peter von Tresckow wrote:

> Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
> to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
> time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
> route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
> planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
> perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
> route 66 on the way home.
>
> What are some of the routes that would be acceptable in a 172SP or a
> 180 HP archer.
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter von Tresckow
>
> P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
> suggestions for that also??

[mikem]

Follow this:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?T219124D6

Peter von Tresckow wrote:
> Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
> to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
> time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
> route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
> planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
> perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
> route 66 on the way home.
>
> What are some of the routes that would be acceptable in a 172SP or a
> 180 HP archer.
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter von Tresckow
>
> P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
> suggestions for that also??

[SFM]

Use the southern route through AZ and NM and then turn towards the north
upthrough the Texas and Ok. panhandles to Wi.

Much safer and is where a lot of bug smasher ferry flight move through.
Good weather too so less chance of inadverant granite filled cloud problems

--
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MI-150972
PP-ASEL-IA

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**"A long time ago being crazy meant something, nowadays everyone is
crazy" -- Charles Manson**
-------------------------------------
"Peter von Tresckow" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
> to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
> time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
> route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
> planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
> perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
> route 66 on the way home.
>
> What are some of the routes that would be acceptable in a 172SP or a
> 180 HP archer.
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter von Tresckow
>
> P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
> suggestions for that also??

[Mark Kolber]

On 16 Dec 2003 11:26:49 -0800, (Peter von Tresckow)
wrote:

>Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
>to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
>time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
>route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
>planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
>perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
>route 66 on the way home.

Unless you are going to do some prep book work about mountain flying
(I'd recommend Sparky Imeson's 'Mountain Flying Bible' at
http://www.mountainflying.com/ =and= do a day (an =early= morning,
actually since we're talking about July) of mountain dual to get some
minimum exposure to the variety that is out there, take the low
route.

>
>P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
>suggestions for that also??

You might take a look at www.coloradopilots.org and click on the link
for Mountain Flying| Instructors. Jer/ Eberhard, who posts here from
time to time is one of the known experts. If you're interested, I also
do mountain checks, but my schedule can be pretty limited since I only
teach part time. If you wanted to talk to me about it, even just
generally, feel free to email me.


Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

[Martin Hellman]

(Peter von Tresckow) wrote in message >...
> Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
> to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
> time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
> route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
> planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
> perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
> route 66 on the way home.

First, I'd second the comment someone has already made about the
southern routes having more reliable weather. I fly a motor glider
out of Hayward (across the bay from SFO) and have had to cancel
several planned summer trips to the Tetons due to bad wx. Flying
across Utah and Nevada is more reliable, and N Mexico and Arizona may
be even more reliable.

Though there is the danger of monsoonal moisture from the Gulf of
Mexico being sucked north and making those routes a mess too. If your
total flight time will be less than 3 days, then I'd watch the long
range wx forecasts and adjust my route based on that.

For example, http://weather.unisys.com/ has an MRF model with 4 panel
plots showing a number of useful products. The ones to watch the most
are the third (precip in inches of rain) and the fourth (moisture, but
also showing areas of thunderstorm activity in dark outline). These
plots go out 2 weeks, with obviously decreasing accuracy at the longer
times, but are still very useful.

Second, I'd recommend that, in addition to the usual mountain flying
training that you've already said you'll get, you consider some time
in glider training for at least three reasons:

1. It's good in general. All dual-rated pilots I know agree that their
glider training made them much better power pilots. Most importantly,
perhaps, should your engine ever fail, you're more likely to not panic
and to have some concept of how far you can glide.

2. Knowing how to recognize and make use of natural forms of lift can
be really helpful, even life saving, in a normally aspirated power
craft. A friend of mine who added a power rating to his already
existing glider rating and then did a mtn checkout at South Tahoe
airport amazed his instructor when he was able to get their 152 out of
there in half the time it normally takes. How? He found a thermal that
added at least several hundred feet per minute to their anemic climb
rate.

3. Glider training, at least in a mtn environment or with an
instructor familiar with the mtns, will teach you a lot about how to
avoid problems in the mountains. For example, most power pilots are
taught to fear mountain wave. In reality, it's the rotor, not the
wave, that's the problem. Wave is one of the sweetest forms of lift
known to man, smooth and going to unbelievable heights.

If you have the time to do the glider training, there are many
possibilities. I trained at Minden (just east of Tahoe) at Soar Minden
(http://www.soarminden.com/) and High Country Soaring
(http://www.highcountrysoaring.com/) also operates out of there. Both
are highly regarded and either one would get you some fantastic
training in the right kind of country. If business takes you to
Denver, Albuquerque, or other high altitude locations, I'm sure you
can also find good training there.

I'd also second the comment about Tahoe being a great place to cross
the Sierras. It is absolutely beautiful. Or, better yet, when you
reach the Sierras, run down the valleys to the east, from Tahoe to
Bishop (which is only about 4,000 feet MSL, and so a good stopping
point should you need it), then cross either at Mammoth (there's an
unplotted 9300' pass that follows V230 from Mammoth Mountain ski
resort to Fresno - once you clear the pass, there's a river canyon
that goes all the way to Fresno, so no terrain clearance issues if you
can make the pass OK) or further south, near Tahachipi and
Bakersfield, where the Sierras start to disappear. The run from Tahoe
to Bishop (and even further south) is amazing, with many 13k+ peaks
and even a number of 14k+

Oh, yeah, that reminds me: You might want to consider a portable O2
system and/or a pulse oxymeter to check the O2 level in your blood to
make sure you're not getting hypoxic. If you have a passenger,
maintaining a conversation while you're at the higher altitudes is
also a good idea. Asking each other "what is 7x9? 3x8? etc" every once
in a while is a good way for one of you to realize the other is
hypoxic before it results in disaster. Remember, the first sign of
hypoxia is a feeling of euphoria! ("Nothing can go wrong.)

Another useful technique, with or wo O2 on board, is a form of
pressure breathing in which you take a deep breath and then purse your
lips to create a slight back pressure while you breathe out. An
anestheseologist who flew with me taught me that trick. I've seen it
take my blood O2 from 79% (lousy) to 92% (excellent) in 30 seconds.
It's work and you can't do it for long periods of time. But, if you
need to be above 10 or 12k without supplemental O2 for 10 minutes or
so, it can really help. According to my doc friend, some of the
alveoli (air sacs) in the lungs are always collapsed and this
procedure reinflates them, increasing your lung capacity.

Another point that kills a few people every year: Be conservative in
estimating your load, climb rate, etc. I've heard that almost every
year some people get killed at Truckee (TRK, elevation almost 6k) due
to inadequate climb ability. They typically have a fully loaded 172 or
similar, start the takeoff roll, get worried that they're not lifting
off. Then, thank God, they lift off. But they only get 25-50' above
the ground before hitting the trees at the end of the runway. Why?
Because they were in ground effect. The plane had enough power to fly
in ground effect, but not enough to fly above it.

One last point to be aware of: GPS vs altimeter readings. On a
summer's day in the Sierras, when my altimeter is reading just under
18k (an altitude glider pilots love), my GPS is often reading 19k or
even a bit higher. For terrain clearance, the GPS is the more accurate
of the two, but be sure to still leave a good safety margin since it
is subject o 3-4x the error vertically that it is horizontally, and
your "precision" or similar reading on the GPS is for horizontal, not
vertical. What happens is that, on a hot day, the air mass expands, so
the 500 mbar point, which is usually around 18k feet is now higher.
ATC goes by the altimeter reading, not the GPS, but for terrain
clearance, you'll want to know both readings. (On a colder than
standard day, it works in the other direction and using your altimeter
to determine terrain clearance can kill you. Fortunately, we don't see
much of that kind of weather where I fly.)

Hope these ideas help and that you have a great, and safe, trip.

Martin

[Paul Hamilton]

I've made four transcontinental flights using a variety of routes.
Looking at your proposed flight, I see that the northern route through
Yellowstone and SD runs way north of the great circle. If you want to
go to Yellowstone, that is managable, but you will have some higher
terrain to deal with.

I'd suggest flying a bit south of the great circle, passing through
Tucumcari, NM. This will be only a bit longer than the great circle,
and will not require O2 or mountain flying training. (However, a
number of flight schools along this route do offer it, and it would be
a great idea.)

If you want a northern route, I would suggest crossing the Rockies
through southern WY, staying near Route 80. That is another low spot
in the mountains -- you can fly around 9,000 most of the time and you
will not need any O2. However, the weather is less reliable on that
route, so you may have to use the Tucumcari routing both ways.

Paul Hamilton

[SeeAndAvoid]

Straight line from ENW to MYF is 1505nm. Throw in LVS (Las Vegas, NM) in
there for terrain avoidance and it only adds 17nm and keeps you south of all
the highest terrain. 10,500 is the ideal altitude west of LVS, at 8,500 you
may need to zig-zag a little between Las Vegas and Grants, NM.
Places you'd fly near or over along the way...
Moline, St. Joseph, Manhattan, Great Bend, Dodge City, Albuquerque, St.
Johns, and a whole lot of nothing until San Diego.

Northern route sure is alot longer. Through Yellowstone adds about 200nm,
figure all with a headwind, and much dicier weather probable. But you'd fly
right over Salt Lake City and the other Las Vegas (NV). Just noticed you
said during the summer. This would a pretty nice scenic route, will have to
zig-zag around the mountains more. The southern route above is surely to be
bumpier especially in NM and AZ. But you can hook up with I-40 and have one
heck of a long emergency runway and it showing the way through the lower
passes.

Another scenic option is LVS towards Shiprock, NM and Monument Valley, then
over the Grand Canyon. Total miles= 1585nm, all comfortably done around
10,500. Watch out for the SFAR over the Grand Canyon though.

Have fun, Chris

[[email protected]]

Wow, Peter, you are on it! Excellent of you to do pre-planning
so early, with enough time to get something accomplished!

Either of your aircraft will work well for such a trip.
Yellowstone is beautiful that time of year.
We fly early in the morning (dawn), and at 10% or more
below the max gross weight of the aircraft, (better performance).

I am sure you have had good training up to now, yet density altitude,
winds and navigation are yet catching pilots on their first time out
west.

May I suggest that you stop at Jackson, Casper or Cheyenne, Wyoming
for some 1:1 mountain training from some local pilots on your way in?

May I humbly suggest that I am available at 3V5, Fort Collins Downtown
Airport, Colorado, at Poudre Aviation, just south of Cheyenne, WY, if
you want some mountain flight instruction in the Colorado Rockys...
Aspen, Leadville and Glenwood Springs await.

As you are in Wisconsin, you might consider discussing flying
out west with another Wisconsinite at Portage:

Airport, WI - Portage Municipal Airport, C47
POB 319
Portage, WI 53901
608 742-3300 OFFICE FBO Air Portage, Inc., John Poppy
608 742-0049 FAX FBO Air Portage, Inc., John Poppy
email poppy'at'air-portage.com, http://www.air-portage.com

Please feel free to email me with your questions or comments...
that goes for any pilot or wanna-be on the net...

If you have the opportunity to get education and training, and have an
excellent experience in the mountains, then I will have avoided
another search and rescue call-out for Civil Air Patrol to find
someone in the mountains.

My compliments on pre-planning your out-west flying adventure!

May I suggest there is a great mountain flying course in northern
Idaho, at McCall 3-7 day adventures, custom tailored to your needs,
wants and skills. I believe the URL is:
http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com

Lori MacNichol is the owner, Chief CFI, and an excellent mountain,
canyon and backcountry instructor.

Peter von Tresckow > wrote:
> Hi, I am in the planning stage for a trip from Kenosha (SE Wisconsin)
> to San Diego to visit my brother this summer. This will be my firsrt
> time in the mountains, and I was looking for some help picking the
> route. So far I have picked up the WACs for the general area for
> planning, and I was thinking of a northern route through SD with
> perhaps a stop in Yellowstone on the way there and roughly following
> route 66 on the way home.

> What are some of the routes that would be acceptable in a 172SP or a
> 180 HP archer.

> Thanks

> Peter von Tresckow

> P.S. I am planning on taking some dual in the mountains as well any
> suggestions for that also??

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://www.frii.net/~jer
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 197 Young Eagles!

[Ron Lee]

Know how to lean your engine properly at altitude. Summertime density
altitudes can exceed 9000' in the summer.

Also land and take off using airspeed. The actual groundspeed will be
higher so do not let sea level groundspeed perception fool you. This
means longer landing and takeoff distances.

Ron Lee

[Blanche]

Ron Lee > wrote:
>Know how to lean your engine properly at altitude. Summertime density
>altitudes can exceed 9000' in the summer.

And that's at ground level!

[Ron Lee]

Blanche > wrote:

>Ron Lee > wrote:
>>Know how to lean your engine properly at altitude. Summertime density
>>altitudes can exceed 9000' in the summer.
>
>And that's at ground level!

Thanks for pointing that out! You are correct. We have had people
arrive in CO and not successfully make a take-off. Probably due to
the effects of high density altitude on the runway.

When I took off from Leadville this summer the DA was just over 12,000
feet (on the ground!)

Ron Lee