second and third wave of PowerFlarm adoption?

[son_of_flubber]

So the competition pilots like PowerFlarm and the glitches are being worked out. The second wave of deployment will come at clubs and glider ports that have a lot of gliders in the pattern and close by terrain features that concentrate traffic.

What about the rest of us? The third wave? I fly at an airport with relatively low traffic. A recreational cross country pilot said to me, "Why do I need PowerFlarm? Most of the time I'm far away from other gliders." Good point.

But what about the student and very low hour pilots flying close to the airport? The pilots that are somewhat unproven in their ability to 'see and avoid'? You know... the kind of pilot that sometimes enters a thermal in the wrong direction? The kind of pilot that doesn't parse the radio call that he is heading straight at you. The kind of pilot who stares at the variometer because he's having trouble centering in the thermal. You know ... your average very low hours pilot who flies within sight of the airport. (No shame. Everyone goes through that stage. Hopefully it's brief and non-fatal..)

There's a good cost/benefit argument for putting PowerFlarm in ALL club gliders, trainers and towplanes, and that would kickstart broader adoption. When the new pilots step up to their first gliders, they'd voluntarily budget for a PowerFlarm. A few experienced pilots would get PowerFlarm to keep track of those unpredictable newbies.

PowerFlarm is a no-brainer for anyone who looks at the sport with fresh eyes, "why would anyone fly without it?" given the choice. Most of us newbies would have no problem with a surcharge to put PowerFlarm in all club gliders and towplanes.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Jul 26, 5:03*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> So the competition pilots like PowerFlarm and the glitches are being worked out. *The second wave of deployment will come at clubs and glider ports that have a lot of gliders in the pattern and close by terrain features that concentrate traffic.
>
> What about the rest of us? *The third wave? *I fly at an airport with relatively low traffic. *A recreational cross country pilot said to me, "Why do I need PowerFlarm? Most of the time I'm far away from other gliders.." *Good point.
>
> But what about the student and very low hour pilots flying close to the airport? The pilots that are somewhat unproven in their ability to 'see and avoid'? *You know... the kind of pilot that sometimes enters a thermal in the wrong direction? *The kind of pilot that doesn't parse the radio call that he is heading straight at you. *The kind of pilot who stares at the variometer because he's having trouble centering in the thermal. You know ... your average very low hours pilot who flies within sight of the airport. (No shame. Everyone goes through that stage. *Hopefully it's brief and non-fatal.)
>
> There's a good cost/benefit argument for putting PowerFlarm in ALL club gliders, trainers and towplanes, and that would kickstart broader adoption. When the new pilots step up to their first gliders, they'd voluntarily budget for a PowerFlarm. *A few experienced pilots would get PowerFlarm to keep track of *those unpredictable newbies.
>
> PowerFlarm is a no-brainer for anyone who looks at the sport with fresh eyes, "why would anyone fly without it?" given the choice. *Most of us newbies would have no problem with a surcharge to put PowerFlarm in all club gliders and towplanes.

Here's your opportunity to lead by example.

I can promise this much: buy one and use it, and you won't run into
me!

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:18:17 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:

> Here's your opportunity to lead by example.
> I can promise this much: buy one and use it, and you won't run into
> me!

I've been thinking about gifting a PowerFlarm to my favorite club glider, as a thank you for patiently training me. Of course there's nothing lonelier than being the ONLY PowerFlarm at the airport (as perhaps you know).

[Tony[_5_]]

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:18:17 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > Here's your opportunity to lead by example.
> > I can promise this much: buy one and use it, and you won't run into
> > me!
>
> I've been thinking about gifting a PowerFlarm to my favorite club glider, as a thank you for patiently training me. Of course there's nothing lonelier than being the ONLY PowerFlarm at the airport (as perhaps you know).

I rented a PowerFLARM for the 13.5 meter contest. Unfortunately at the contest no one else had a working PowerFLARM as the one equipped 1-26 had electrical problems and his wasn't working. However one of the PW-5's had a Mode C transponder (as do I). I was "lucky" enough that Williams Soaring sent me the PowerFLARM a few weeks before the contest because they were about to get busy hosting the 18 meter/Std nationals, so I was able to fly with it a few weekends at my club. However during those flights there was only one other equipped pilot flying so I didn't see too many flarm targets on the screen. However, I did see a lot of Mode C transponders flying around and actually had a very appreciated collision warning from one when I was about 35 miles from home and slowly climbing through 5500 MSL (eastbound VFR cruising altitude). I spotted the Cessna and switched to the nearest airports CTAF and got ahold of him. He seemed surprised to see a glider so far away from home and even more surprised to find out where I had been. When i got back I learned that another club-mate was interested in selling his portable so after the contest was over I bought his.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Jul 26, 5:27*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:18:17 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > Here's your opportunity to lead by example.
> > I can promise this much: *buy one and use it, and you won't run into
> > me!
>
> I've been thinking about gifting a PowerFlarm to my favorite club glider, as a thank you for patiently training me. *Of course there's nothing lonelier than being the ONLY PowerFlarm at the airport (as perhaps you know).

My $0.02: The skies of VT and NH are incredibly empty. If I see one
other aircraft per hour while on XC in your neck o' the woods, it gets
to feel a little busier than usual. I've gotten a few mode C pcas
hits around LEB, one South of Sugarbush last Saturday (but only after
he climbed through about 5k msl, he wasn't being interrogated lower).
I am a flarm fanboy... for venues with dense glider traffic. Like the
contests I frequent. For club ops in Northern New England, the
collision hazard should already be essentially nil (and one flarm
won't help much). The exception would be MWSA wave camp. I think I'd
suggest renting portables from Rex Mayes for any club ships coming to
wave camp rather than buying one lonely flarm that's going to be
mostly transmitting to the wilderness. A fair number of private ships
in MWSA are now equipped thanks to the group buy that Juan organized.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:31:57 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> The skies of VT and NH are incredibly empty.

Except near the airports where the newbie pilots are concentrated. (My original point.) Though the worse case is 3-4 trainers in the air, a towplane, and 3 XC launching at 1 pm.

Sometimes I think that in this neighborhood a Trig Mode-S transponder would be more valuable than a PowerFlarm as both Springfield and Sugarbush are right on Victor Airways to Burlington and Lebanon. 4-5 biz jets not uncommonly land at VSF on Saturday afternoon. TCAS is a beautiful thing.

The PCAS function (transponder in the neighborhood) of PFlarm is valuable for GA traffic (as Tony mentioned).

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Jul 26, 6:31*pm, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 5:27*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:18:17 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > > Here's your opportunity to lead by example.
> > > I can promise this much: *buy one and use it, and you won't run into
> > > me!
>
> > I've been thinking about gifting a PowerFlarm to my favorite club glider, as a thank you for patiently training me. *Of course there's nothing lonelier than being the ONLY PowerFlarm at the airport (as perhaps you know)..
>
> My $0.02: The skies of VT and NH are incredibly empty. *If I see one
> other aircraft per hour while on XC in your neck o' the woods, it gets
> to feel a little busier than usual. *I've gotten a few mode C pcas
> hits around LEB, one South of Sugarbush last Saturday (but only after
> he climbed through about 5k msl, he wasn't being interrogated lower).
> I am a flarm fanboy... for venues with dense glider traffic. *Like the
> contests I frequent. *For club ops in Northern New England, the
> collision hazard should already be essentially nil (and one flarm
> won't help much). *The exception would be MWSA wave camp. *I think I'd
> suggest renting portables from Rex Mayes for any club ships coming to
> wave camp rather than buying one lonely flarm that's going to be
> mostly transmitting to the wilderness. *A fair number of private ships
> in MWSA are now equipped thanks to the group buy that Juan organized.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

No so empty around Manchester NH with passenger jets quite low outside
Class C. I looked at a few jets from very close distance. After second
incident I bought PCAS and later Mod S transponder. My PowerFlarm is
still in the box.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Jul 26, 7:32*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> On Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:31:57 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > The skies of VT and NH are incredibly empty.
>
> Except near the airports where the newbie pilots are concentrated. (My original point.) Though the worse case is 3-4 trainers in the air, a towplane, and 3 XC launching at 1 pm.
>
> Sometimes I think that in this neighborhood a Trig Mode-S transponder would be more valuable than a PowerFlarm as both Springfield and Sugarbush are right on Victor Airways to Burlington and Lebanon. *4-5 biz jets not uncommonly land at VSF on Saturday afternoon. *TCAS is a beautiful thing.
>
> The PCAS function (transponder in the neighborhood) of PFlarm is valuable for GA traffic (as Tony mentioned).

As worst cases go, that's pretty light, except about the jets. I'm
astounded that you are getting that much jet traffic.

IIRC you get painted pretty low at VSF, so pcas should be useful
there. Go very far North though, and you have to be at 4 or 5000 to
get interrogated. Not sure how good Powerflarm pcas will be for
jets. I see pcas targets by eyeball almost always before I get the
info from flarm unless they are below/behind me. No way am I getting
pcas at 5 miles. Maybe 2 miles. Is that enough for jets? Is any
pcas device enough for jets? If I saw "4 or 5" bizjets at my altitude
in one day from my sailplane cockpit, I'd have a transponder this
time next week.

-Evan / T8

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Jul 26, 8:01*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 6:31*pm, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 5:27*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
>
> > > On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:18:17 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > > > Here's your opportunity to lead by example.
> > > > I can promise this much: *buy one and use it, and you won't run into
> > > > me!
>
> > > I've been thinking about gifting a PowerFlarm to my favorite club glider, as a thank you for patiently training me. *Of course there's nothing lonelier than being the ONLY PowerFlarm at the airport (as perhaps you know).
>
> > My $0.02: The skies of VT and NH are incredibly empty. *If I see one
> > other aircraft per hour while on XC in your neck o' the woods, it gets
> > to feel a little busier than usual. *I've gotten a few mode C pcas
> > hits around LEB, one South of Sugarbush last Saturday (but only after
> > he climbed through about 5k msl, he wasn't being interrogated lower).
> > I am a flarm fanboy... for venues with dense glider traffic. *Like the
> > contests I frequent. *For club ops in Northern New England, the
> > collision hazard should already be essentially nil (and one flarm
> > won't help much). *The exception would be MWSA wave camp. *I think I'd
> > suggest renting portables from Rex Mayes for any club ships coming to
> > wave camp rather than buying one lonely flarm that's going to be
> > mostly transmitting to the wilderness. *A fair number of private ships
> > in MWSA are now equipped thanks to the group buy that Juan organized.
>
> > -Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> No so empty around Manchester NH with passenger jets quite low outside
> Class C. I looked at a few jets from very close distance. After second
> incident I bought PCAS and later Mod S transponder. My PowerFlarm is
> still in the box.

Well, okay, you've got me there. I live on the glide path into MHT
and yeah, it's busy and yeah, they're low and yeah, I'm outside the
class C. But when I go fly my glider I start by driving about an hour
and a half the hell away from MHT. It's simply never occurred to me
in 15 years of flying here to fly anywhere within 30 miles of MHT.

-Evan / T8

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:27:49 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Jul 26, 7:32*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:31:57 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > > The skies of VT and NH are incredibly empty.
> >
> > Except near the airports where the newbie pilots are concentrated. (My original point.) Though the worse case is 3-4 trainers in the air, a towplane, and 3 XC launching at 1 pm.
> >
> > Sometimes I think that in this neighborhood a Trig Mode-S transponder would be more valuable than a PowerFlarm as both Springfield and Sugarbush are right on Victor Airways to Burlington and Lebanon. *4-5 biz jets not uncommonly land at VSF on Saturday afternoon. *TCAS is a beautiful thing.
> >
> > The PCAS function (transponder in the neighborhood) of PFlarm is valuable for GA traffic (as Tony mentioned).
>
> As worst cases go, that's pretty light, except about the jets. I'm
> astounded that you are getting that much jet traffic.
>
> IIRC you get painted pretty low at VSF, so pcas should be useful
> there. Go very far North though, and you have to be at 4 or 5000 to
> get interrogated. Not sure how good Powerflarm pcas will be for
> jets. I see pcas targets by eyeball almost always before I get the
> info from flarm unless they are below/behind me. No way am I getting
> pcas at 5 miles. Maybe 2 miles. Is that enough for jets? Is any
> pcas device enough for jets? If I saw "4 or 5" bizjets at my altitude
> in one day from my sailplane cockpit, I'd have a transponder this
> time next week.
>
> -Evan / T8

No disagreement from me on concerns about PCAS range and suitability of that with fast jets, but the "painting" aspect is often not an issue, especially if you have reasonable heavy jet traffic in the area--their TCAS tends to do a good job of interrogating lots of transponders (but not interrogate their own transponder -- but two jets will get you that).

Best thing for gliders in areas of high jet traffic density is to be equipped with a transponder - let the jet TCAS II see you, much larger range than PCAS and the only technology that directs the pilots to deviate to avoid a collision. The transponders also get you seen by ATC directing those jets.

An interesting aspect of using PCAS near high density GA and fast jet traffic I've seen is "whoa there is a lot more stuff out there than I thought" and then more willingness to install a transponder. Of course that only applies to busier airspace areas, I'm not a fan of pushing transponders in general (would rather see than money spent on PowerFLARM, better training, SPOT trackers, etc.)

Darryl

[son_of_flubber]

But getting back to the original topic... Does anyone see merit in putting PowerFlarm in club gliders and towplanes?

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:03:01 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> So the competition pilots like PowerFlarm and the glitches are being worked out. The second wave of deployment will come at clubs and glider ports that have a lot of gliders in the pattern and close by terrain features that concentrate traffic.
>
> What about the rest of us? The third wave? I fly at an airport with relatively low traffic. A recreational cross country pilot said to me, "Why do I need PowerFlarm? Most of the time I'm far away from other gliders." Good point.
>
> But what about the student and very low hour pilots flying close to the airport? The pilots that are somewhat unproven in their ability to 'see and avoid'? You know... the kind of pilot that sometimes enters a thermal in the wrong direction? The kind of pilot that doesn't parse the radio call that he is heading straight at you. The kind of pilot who stares at the variometer because he's having trouble centering in the thermal.. You know ... your average very low hours pilot who flies within sight of the airport. (No shame. Everyone goes through that stage. Hopefully it's brief and non-fatal.)
>
> There's a good cost/benefit argument for putting PowerFlarm in ALL club gliders, trainers and towplanes, and that would kickstart broader adoption. When the new pilots step up to their first gliders, they'd voluntarily budget for a PowerFlarm. A few experienced pilots would get PowerFlarm to keep track of those unpredictable newbies.
>
> PowerFlarm is a no-brainer for anyone who looks at the sport with fresh eyes, "why would anyone fly without it?" given the choice. Most of us newbies would have no problem with a surcharge to put PowerFlarm in all club gliders and towplanes.

[BobW]

On 7/26/2012 8:50 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> But getting back to the original topic... Does anyone see merit in putting
> PowerFlarm in club gliders and towplanes?

History may repeat itself...sort of. :-)

"Way back when" (in the ancient late '70's or early '80's) Wil Schuemann made
a similar, well reasoned, argument ships/pilots that would likely benefit most
from his short-time-constant, taut wire mechanical variometer were the club
trainers (most of 'em burdened with glacial, sticky mechanical varios that
even in their best days had longer time constants than his slowest Sage vario)
flown by struggling, wannabe soaring pilots. He presented his reasoning in a
full-color, full-/multi-page ad in "Soaring" mag; IMO this ad easily exceeded
many articles in meat and informational content.

I thought then Wil was correct in his assessment, and have never seen fit to
change my opinion.

To this day I've never seen a Sage vario in any club primary trainer. (Draw
your own conclusions!)

At first blush I'm inclined to agree with your PFlarm assessment (with "the
usual cautionary proviso" about it maybe becoming yet another instrument for a
newbie to fixate upon...IF installed, will prolly give those dedicated
instructors one more thing to caution about!). That said, I'll wager some
cheap beer few will appear in that segment of the fleet, for a small host of
"too much effort/cost/system complexity" reasons...

Bob - not every good idea succeeds - W.

[Blue Whale]

A large number of club gliders are......."not glass." After reading
for many months about the issues faced by glass ships with antenna
placement...has anyone tried Power Flarm in our metal fleet of
Blaniks, Pilati, and Schweizers?

Scott

[Tim Taylor]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091128/ARTICLES/911289924

[bumper[_4_]]

On Friday, July 27, 2012 4:11:46 PM UTC-7, Blue Whale wrote:
has anyone tried Power Flarm in our metal fleet of
>
> Blaniks, Pilati, and Schweizers?
>
> Scott

Scott,

The portable works fine in the Pawnee and in my Husky. Just make sure the antenna has an unobstucted view Metal under is okay, and metal windshield pillars and such are not a big problem as long as they are not next to the antennas.

bumper

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, July 27, 2012 7:11:46 PM UTC-4, Blue Whale wrote:
> A large number of club gliders are......."not glass." After reading
>
> for many months about the issues faced by glass ships with antenna
>
> placement...has anyone tried Power Flarm in our metal fleet of
>
> Blaniks, Pilati, and Schweizers?
>
>
>
> Scott

Does anyone have experience with an externally mounted antenna(s) for PowerFlarm?

Would L/D degradation from an external mounted PowerFlarm antenna be less of a concern on a lower performance ship?