Pilot Deviation - Legal Question

[Steve]

Scenario-

Crewed Part 135 jet is climbing out of XYZ airport. FO is talking to
ATC, and misunderstands a crossing altitude. Capt is Flying.

Crew subsequently busts altitude restriction. No close call/etc with
another airplane. ATC asks them to call XXX number, which they do.

Both crewmembers also file NASA form.

Few days later FSDO Inspector calls, tells Capt that "we need to make
this as painless as possible, its my job to follow up, etc, etc, could
you give me a written statement"

what to do?

I recommended that the Capt call AOPA legal or other aviation lawyer
just to present the situation to him

Capt (good friend of mine) said the FSDO inspector was "real nice to
me" and that "he is a pilot too"

comments?

(my opinion is that a phone call to a aviation lawyer should still
take place)

[Larry Dighera]

On 17 Dec 2003 19:07:38 -0800, (Steve) wrote in
Message-Id: >:

>what to do?
>
>I recommended that the Capt call AOPA legal or other aviation lawyer
>just to present the situation to him

This is the least expensive minimal legal assistance available. It is
a good first choice along with (usually free) 1/2 hour phone
consultations with aviation attorneys.

>Capt (good friend of mine) said the FSDO inspector was "real nice to
>me" and that "he is a pilot too"
>
>comments?

Legal council should have also been sought prior to filing the NASA
forms. Under no circumstances should discussion of the incident with
FSDO take place before legal consultation, IMHO.

It may be a good strategy for the pilots to suggest effective
procedural changes that will insure against such possible future
errors. Finding weakness in the regulations tends to shift
culpability. Use your head. Elephants are poor dancers. :-)

>(my opinion is that a phone call to a aviation lawyer should still
>take place)

Absolutely!

It would be interesting to know what caused the FO's miscommunication.
Is he able to diagnose the cause? Was it due to less than
professional decorum in the cockpit? Social pressure to appear easily
competent without the necessity of uttering, say again?


Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. YMMV.

[BTIZ]

wasn't the Capt also listening to the radio?


"Steve" > wrote in message
om...
> Scenario-
>
> Crewed Part 135 jet is climbing out of XYZ airport. FO is talking to
> ATC, and misunderstands a crossing altitude. Capt is Flying.
>
> Crew subsequently busts altitude restriction. No close call/etc with
> another airplane. ATC asks them to call XXX number, which they do.
>
> Both crewmembers also file NASA form.
>
> Few days later FSDO Inspector calls, tells Capt that "we need to make
> this as painless as possible, its my job to follow up, etc, etc, could
> you give me a written statement"
>
> what to do?
>
> I recommended that the Capt call AOPA legal or other aviation lawyer
> just to present the situation to him
>
> Capt (good friend of mine) said the FSDO inspector was "real nice to
> me" and that "he is a pilot too"
>
> comments?
>
> (my opinion is that a phone call to a aviation lawyer should still
> take place)

[Dennis O'Connor]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...

A schizophrenic patient filed a bizarre complaint against me... Being that
she is a Medicaid person, born and raised on the taxpayers backs the state,
of course, took her complaint with all seriousness... The investigator from
the state licensing board used the same line, that she just wanted to get my
side of it to close the file...

When she arrived to take my 'statement' I had an attorney from one of the
bigger law firms in the country present - to the obvious dismay of Ms.
Investigator - a lady lawyer, who was dressed to the nines, leather
briefcase, Gucci boots, expensive watch, expensive perfume, perfectly
modulated voice, and fangs tipped with titanium caps... She made it clear
as a bell to Ms. Investigator that anything other than a 'closed file' would
be met with scorched earth... Best two grand I ever spent...

Denny

"BTIZ" > wrote in > > Few days later FSDO Inspector
calls, tells Capt that "we need to make
> > this as painless as possible, its my job to follow up, etc, etc, could
> > you give me a written statement"
> >
> > what to do?

[Michael]

(Steve) wrote
> Few days later FSDO Inspector calls, tells Capt that "we need to make
> this as painless as possible, its my job to follow up, etc, etc, could
> you give me a written statement"
>
> what to do?
>
> I recommended that the Capt call AOPA legal or other aviation lawyer
> just to present the situation to him
>
> Capt (good friend of mine) said the FSDO inspector was "real nice to
> me" and that "he is a pilot too"
>
> comments?
>
> (my opinion is that a phone call to a aviation lawyer should still
> take place)

Aviation lawyers are a total waste of time. If the fed wants to get
you, he is going to get you. It's really just that simple. All the
regs are on his side. You may win before the ALJ, but the fed will
simply appeal to the NTSB, which will overturn the ALJ. The precedent
here is very strong. The FAA can interpret its rules at will, without
the requirement for consistency, and the NTSB is required to defer to
the FAA. These are not cops. You have no rights. You are guilty
unless the fed decides you're innocent.

Best bet - cooperate and grovel. That way, you have a chance. Call
in a lawyer, and it becomes adversarial. At that point, the fed
becomes your enemy and will try to get you. Will he succeed? See
above.

Michael

[Gary Mishler]

"Michael" > wrote in message

> Aviation lawyers are a total waste of time.

> Best bet - cooperate and grovel. That way, you have a chance. Call
> in a lawyer, and it becomes adversarial. At that point, the fed
> becomes your enemy and will try to get you.

The above position is totally contrary to the long standing advice of AOPA,
NBAA, numerous books and articles written on the subject. I can attest that
"cooperate and grovel" will only give them the rope to hang you with. I've
seen it done. From the experiences I have witnessed a good aviation lawyer
and the advice of the AOPA/NBAA legal assistance are invaluable in
enforcement procedures.

My advice: Call AOPA and do a Google search on "FAA Enforcement". That
will give you numerous links to the proper procedure.

Also, there is a book titled "Please Call the Tower" It's available on
Amazon. I would highly recommend it both to people facing an enforcement
action, but more importantly, for all pilots to read as a proactive measure.
Besides enforcement actions it also covers procedures for medical problems,
certificate actions, etc. We have a copy in the bookcase at our hangar, and
I've bought an individual copy for each of our pilots to have.

[Michael]

"Gary Mishler" > wrote
> The above position is totally contrary to the long standing advice of AOPA,
> NBAA, numerous books and articles written on the subject...

By aviation lawyers. 'Nuff said.

Michael

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:37:26 GMT, "Gary Mishler"
> wrote:

>Also, there is a book titled "Please Call the Tower" It's available on
>Amazon.

I agree with your assessment of the value of the information contained
in this book. However I was unable to find it available from
Amazon.com. It is available from Barnes and Nobele, however:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?ISBN=0967034205

[Gary Mishler]

> wrote in message
...

> I agree with your assessment of the value of the information contained
> in this book. However I was unable to find it available from
> Amazon.com. It is available from Barnes and Nobele, however:
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?ISBN=0967034205

Hmm, thanks for that info. It was about 6 weeks ago that I got it there,
must have changed since then.

Thanks,
Mish