Tent basics // Oshkosh prep

[Mike Z.]

awright! I admit this is a bit premature but it has been too poopy to fly lately and a fellas' mind gets to wandering.

We have been gearing up to camp the North 40 for a while.

Last year we even upgraded the tent to a nice stand-up Eureka Headquarters.

Shortly after that, I read Jays' tale of woe and saw the pictures after his tent blew down.

Now my new tent is of similar size, http://www.eurekatent.com/head.asp , as Jays' old one.

My wife thinks that a nice motorhome is roughing it. Wet sleeping bags and the tent self destructing would be the last time we spent
on the north 40 which leads (finally) to my question.

Do I need a different tent or is proper staking and guying the solution. (and all the sub questions like what stakes and what angles
to drive them etc. We are not skilled tenters)

Mike Z

[EDR]

In article . net>,
Mike Z. > wrote:

Mike, forget about that Headquarters tent. It is a big kite that cannot
be anchored properly to withstand potential winds.
Instead, look at the Timberline Outfitter 6.
http://www.eurekatent.com/timout.asp
A big tent with lots or room and can be guyed and staked to withstand
the winds.
If you do not need that much space, look at the Timberline 4XT and add
the Annex for a place to sit in out of the sun or rain.
http://www.eurekatent.com/timblinext.asp

[Mike Rapoport]

Bring a hammer for the stakes. If you can get them in without a hammer,
they are unlikely to hold on large tent. You want longer stakes too.
hardwood or rebar work well. The tent is probably OK since the winds will
not be sustained.

Mike
MU-2


"Mike Z." > wrote in message
link.net...
> awright! I admit this is a bit premature but it has been too poopy to fly
lately and a fellas' mind gets to wandering.
>
> We have been gearing up to camp the North 40 for a while.
>
> Last year we even upgraded the tent to a nice stand-up Eureka
Headquarters.
>
> Shortly after that, I read Jays' tale of woe and saw the pictures after
his tent blew down.
>
> Now my new tent is of similar size, http://www.eurekatent.com/head.asp ,
as Jays' old one.
>
> My wife thinks that a nice motorhome is roughing it. Wet sleeping bags and
the tent self destructing would be the last time we spent
> on the north 40 which leads (finally) to my question.
>
> Do I need a different tent or is proper staking and guying the solution.
(and all the sub questions like what stakes and what angles
> to drive them etc. We are not skilled tenters)
>
> Mike Z
>
>
>
>
>

[EDR]

In article . net>,
Mike Rapoport > wrote:

> Bring a hammer for the stakes. If you can get them in without a hammer,
> they are unlikely to hold on large tent. You want longer stakes too.
> hardwood or rebar work well. The tent is probably OK since the winds will
> not be sustained.

The Tuesday afternoon windstorm pulled out my 9" pole barn nail stakes
on the downwind side of my tarp as I was in the process of taking it
down.

Polebarn nails are cheap and come in various lengths and diameters. Get
some washers to slid up under the head to keep your guy lines from
sliding off.

Hardwood my split and or splinter as you attempt to drive it into the
hard, rocky Oshkosh North 40.

Mike's suggestion of rebar is sound. Cut them to 12 to 18 inches and
file or grind the ends smooth. You will encounter rocks as you attempt
to drive the stakes into the Oshkosh "soil".

I have a set of Fly-Tie aircraft anchors for my plane. They are 18" x
3/8" stainless steel rods. I bent one of them this past AirVenture,
going around a rock while I was driving it in with my Estwing 8 pound
mallet. You definitely want a hammer with some mass. A ballpeen hammer
will also work well if you have a good heavy one.

My tent was just three rows east of Jay's. It stayed put. Aluminum vice
fiberglas poles and a full rain fly make a difference. The more guys
and stakes you use, the less your tent will flex and move in the wind.
It's the flexing and moving that breaks and bends poles.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Mike Z." wrote:
>
> Do I need a different tent or is proper staking and guying the solution. (and all the sub questions like what stakes and what angles
> to drive them etc. We are not skilled tenters)

Well, few tents are going to stay put if the wind gets much above 50 knots, but you
can certainly do things in the staking and guying area. Go with long metal stakes.
Drive them in at a 90 degree angle to the pull of the tent or line. Some tents like
yours have secondary guy line attachment points up around the tops of the walls. If
yours does, use them. Run the guy lines no steeper than a 45 degree angle. Cotton
clothesline is strong and easy to cut and work with for guy lines.

As far as water is concerned, there are a few steps to take. Never place any item
in contact with the walls or roof of the tent if rain is possible. That will start
water wicking through the fabric at that point, and the leak won't stop until the
tent dries out. When you leave for the day, secure all door and window flaps
completely. There's no real need for ventilation if you aren't in the tent. Make
sure that your air mattresses are waterproof and set everything that you want to
keep dry on the mattress or in the plane when you leave for the day. If you don't
have air mattresses, get some. Another alternative is some sort of folding cot.

Since you just bought the tent, try it out before Oshkosh. Pick a time when some
nasty thunderboomers are expected to blow through, and set the thing up in the
back yard. If things don't work out, take corrective steps and try again 'til
it survives.

You can get military stakes and other equipment at http://www.sportsmansguide.com

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Mike Rapoport]

Most things work well if you don't hit a rock....I always hit rocks.

Mike
MU-2


"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> From: "Mike Rapoport" >
>
> >Bring a hammer for the stakes. If you can get them in without a hammer,
> >they are unlikely to hold on large tent. You want longer stakes too.
> >hardwood or rebar work well. The tent is probably OK since the winds
will
> >not be sustained.
>
> There are also "sand stakes" available that are designed to hold in loose
soil. Sort of like
> portable aircraft tie-downs but made out of thermoset plastic. They
basically screw into the
> ground and are quite good at holding tensile loads. Just be sure to screw
them in at the
> same angle as the tent ropes and they should hold like a rock.
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> My tent was just three rows east of Jay's. It stayed put. Aluminum vice
> fiberglas poles and a full rain fly make a difference.
I just shielded yours from the wind! :-)

I had 3/4 inch (!) and 1 inch (!!) aluminum poles on that tent, a rain fly,
and the whole thing was staked down with 10 (!!!) stakes.

Didn't matter a bit -- the wind pulled those stakes out of the "soil"
(basically gravel under an inch of topsoil), and bent the poles over the
backside of my right aileron. Incredibly, the poles bent -- while the
aileron did not.

That was a perfect example of straight-line winds in the MidWest, which can
be as damaging as a tornado. We found the ground cloth -- previously under
the tent -- wrapped around a Skyhawk prop several rows down...

That old tent had survived four OSH fly-ins and a host of other trips,
including some near-tornadoes, without problem. Our new tent, while bigger,
has thinner fiberglass poles, which I don't much car for -- but I didn't
have much choice at the time. (It was the only tent available at a store
within walking distance of the North 40!)

Luckily, it doesn't stick straight up like a pole barn, like the old one
did -- so it should present a lower profile to the wind.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> There are also "sand stakes" available that are designed to hold in loose
soil. Sort of like
> portable aircraft tie-downs but made out of thermoset plastic. They
basically screw into the
> ground

There is NOTHING you can "screw into" some parts of the North 40. This past
year we were parked on top of what amounted to gravel beneath a thin layer
of topsoil. As a result, I was completely unable to screw in my metal
aircraft tie-downs -- even using a "cheater bar"!

It would simply drill down a few inches, and start pulling up gravel and
dirt, just like a little excavator. I was just very lucky that those same
winds that destroyed my tent didn't flip my plane.

(We actually got a couple of them in, eventually, by carrying buckets of
water over to the plane, and pouring them into the parched ground. This
softened the soil enough for the screw-ins to "bite" and stay put, sort of.)

Other years it's never been as much of a problem, so I think we were just in
a bad spot, compounded by a summer-long drought.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article <FLJEb.604866$Fm2.547625@attbi_s04>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> I had 3/4 inch (!) and 1 inch (!!) aluminum poles on that tent, a rain fly,
> and the whole thing was staked down with 10 (!!!) stakes.
> Didn't matter a bit -- the wind pulled those stakes out of the "soil"
> (basically gravel under an inch of topsoil), and bent the poles over the
> backside of my right aileron. Incredibly, the poles bent -- while the
> aileron did not.

OOPS!!! I forgot about the aluminum to aluminum transfer on Atlas' wing.

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:GQJEb.599065$Tr4.1565941@attbi_s03...
> > There are also "sand stakes" available that are designed to hold in
loose
> soil. Sort of like
> > portable aircraft tie-downs but made out of thermoset plastic. They
> basically screw into the
> > ground
>
> There is NOTHING you can "screw into" some parts of the North 40. This
past
> year we were parked on top of what amounted to gravel beneath a thin layer
> of topsoil. As a result, I was completely unable to screw in my metal
> aircraft tie-downs -- even using a "cheater bar"!
>
> It would simply drill down a few inches, and start pulling up gravel and
> dirt, just like a little excavator. I was just very lucky that those same
> winds that destroyed my tent didn't flip my plane.
>
> (We actually got a couple of them in, eventually, by carrying buckets of
> water over to the plane, and pouring them into the parched ground. This
> softened the soil enough for the screw-ins to "bite" and stay put, sort
of.)
>
> Other years it's never been as much of a problem, so I think we were just
in
> a bad spot, compounded by a summer-long drought.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Nothing can beat a 1/2" rebar, about 16" long. Weld a hook on the backside,
to keep the ropes from sliding off.

I found that the problem with most tents, is that they do not have guy
attach points in the right places. If the tent is allowed to start
oscilating from the gusts, the end is near. I put extra holes through the
rain fly, to attach to the poles in mid span, and at the top, then run them
out at a good angle away from the tent. That also makes for a good place to
hang towels, ect. So, in wraping up the tent bit, in my opinion, if you add
enough extra guys, any tent can be made to stay up.

The wet inside bit, is a hard one, but I recomend blow up air mattresses to
keep above any floor water. For luggage, a trunk type, made from plastic,
available as "tool boxes" at the big home improvement chains is hard to
beat. If it is in the water, no big deal. The top can double as a night
stand for lanterns, lights, clocks, act. Get a big piece of plastic for
under the tent, but make it large enough that you can roll up the edges,
upwards, and make sure they are under the edge of the tent. The rolled up
edge prevents water from getting on top of the plastic, in between the
bottom of the tent and the plastic. (bad news)
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> From: "Jay Honeck" >
>
> >There is NOTHING you can "screw into" some parts of the North 40. This
past
> >year we were parked on top of what amounted to gravel beneath a thin
layer
> >of topsoil. As a result, I was completely unable to screw in my metal
> >aircraft tie-downs -- even using a "cheater bar"!
>
> OOPS! I was under the impression that it was a soft soil problem with the
stakes. They probably
> don't allow you to dig holes there, but if they do, "pie plate" anchors
might work well. They're
> about a 6 - 8 inch disk with a flanged hook that goes through the center
hole and gets buried.
> They're actually designed for use in snow, but would hold quite well under
a foot of gravel.
> Four at the corners and then normal staking at the sides might be all
that's needed. The "pie
> plates" are only a few bucks each.....if you can find them.
> Obviously, I've never pitched a tent at Oshkosh. So take this with a grain
of salt.


It is a rock problem. I have twisted off screw in hold downs, like they
were nothing, while they were less than 1/2 of the way in. Digging is next
to impossible without a pick. Slick anchors, like pole barn nails can slide
out. Rebar is great, because of the texture on the sides; they do not let
go.

By the way, if you use rebar, plan on something to grip them, and a long
lever to get them out of the ground. Don't ask me how I know! :-) Vise
grips, and a flat pry bar, and a small piece of lumber to put on the ground
will work.

Not putting extra guys on a tent at OSH, is an invitation for the wind to
make your tent bend over until it is almost flat against the ground, all the
while that the four corners are firmly still in place. It will bend metal
poles, and snap fiberglass poles, if you let them get started blowing out of
shape. Bring extra ropes and extra stakes. You will need them. The wind
can, and will, really howl. That is the one thing you can count on.

Lots of people manage. Listen to those who have been there, done that, and
been successful.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> The wet inside bit, is a hard one, but I recomend blow up air mattresses
to
> keep above any floor water.

The newer battery-inflated ones are GREAT. We now sleep on a queen-sized,
self-inflating air bed when we go to OSH -- a far cry from the
"rock-in-the-ribs" old days! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[tony roberts]

> Do I need a different tent or is proper staking and guying the solution. (and
> all the sub questions like what stakes and what angles
> to drive them etc. We are not skilled tenters)

Hi Mike

The best tent stakes are 10 inch nails from the hardware store.
They are cheap, they don't bend and you can pound them through prtetty
much anything. Pound them in at a 45 degree angle and they work
extremely well in high winds.

For a reasonably priced tent that stands up to very high winds/storms,
the Coleman Xpedition line takes a lot of beating.
I have owned some very expensive tents but currently I have 2 different
sizes of Xpedition - the small one I keep in the plane as part of my
survival gear - and they are the best value for money I have found.

Also of course situate your tent with the narrow end facing the
prevailing wind. If it doesn't have a narrow end, it probably shouldn't
be out in windy areas.

HTH



--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Morgans]

"tony roberts" > wrote
>
> Hi Mike
>
> The best tent stakes are 10 inch nails from the hardware store.
> They are cheap, they don't bend and you can pound them through prtetty
> much anything.

One question. Have you tried them at Oshkosh?
--
Jim in NC

[tony roberts]

> One question. Have you tried them at Oshkosh?

No - but I did read this prior to responding:

>We actually got a couple of them in, eventually, by carrying buckets of
> water over to the plane, and pouring them into the parched ground. This
> softened the soil enough for the screw-ins to "bite" and stay put, sort
>of.)
> Other years it's never been as much of a problem, so I think we were just
>in a bad spot, compounded by a summer-long drought.

And I have used them on mountains (really too heavy to carry up - won't
do that again), on rock-strewn slopes in Nepal - in high winds, in open
meadows, peat based old growth forest and in snow. I also used them at
the Abbotsford Airshow this year which is very similar to Jays
description of Oshkosh - topsoil over gravel.

For what it takes, it is worth carrying some in addition to whatever
else he has. If we are really planning on camping in high winds, as was
mentioned in the post, then ideally we need several types of stakes.
Once we determine the type of ground that we have to use, we can choose
the most suitable stake. Also of course, a lot depends on the type of
tent - I am specifically recommending this type of stake with an
Xpedition type of tent. The Xpedition is is fact such a good tent (and
ridiculously cheap when compared to its competitors) that I have pitched
it on rock, in wind, without any stakes at all - bacause I couldn't get
them into the ground! On that occasion I lined the sides of the tent
with small rocks and used large rocks to hold the fly.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[G.R. Patterson III]

tony roberts wrote:
>
> The best tent stakes are 10 inch nails from the hardware store.

If you have to ask for these, they're called "60 penny nails".

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Dave S]

I havent used the cheap supplied tent stakes that come with your typical
tent in over 15 years.

What I have used are the army surplus variety aluminum tent stakes.
These things are big, thick, and I have NEVER had one of them pull out,
despite being exposed to wind that caused horizontal rain.

The stakes are heavier, and take up a little more space, as does the
necessary claw hammer it takes to pound them in, but I must say that
they can last virtually a lifetime, and will be still firmly anchored in
the ground long after the tent is in tatters.

Dont forget to scotchguard and seam-seal the tent.. Nothing worse than
leaks when you want to be dry.

Dave

Mike Z. wrote:
> awright! I admit this is a bit premature but it has been too poopy to fly lately and a fellas' mind gets to wandering.
>
> We have been gearing up to camp the North 40 for a while.
>
> Last year we even upgraded the tent to a nice stand-up Eureka Headquarters.
>
> Shortly after that, I read Jays' tale of woe and saw the pictures after his tent blew down.
>
> Now my new tent is of similar size, http://www.eurekatent.com/head.asp , as Jays' old one.
>
> My wife thinks that a nice motorhome is roughing it. Wet sleeping bags and the tent self destructing would be the last time we spent
> on the north 40 which leads (finally) to my question.
>
> Do I need a different tent or is proper staking and guying the solution. (and all the sub questions like what stakes and what angles
> to drive them etc. We are not skilled tenters)
>
> Mike Z
>
>
>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Jeffrey Voight" > wrote in message ...
> Wet can be 'solved' by ensuring that your tent is set up on a slight
> slope and digging a trench around the tent to channel the water around
> it rather than under it.

You ever been to Oshkosh? The only place where there is a "slight slope" is
the drainage swales. The guys who camped there got a rather rude awakening
during the first thunderstorm when the stream came through their tent.

We've had a number of tents at Oshkosh and haven't had one pull up stakes
yet. We just use the regular yellow tent stakes (and we've camped in the
North 40, the Vintage area, Sally's Alley, and Scholler). We did have one
tent start to shred the fabric but she was still stuck down to the ground well.

[Jim Weir]

You start digging trenches in the parking area at Oshkosh, you and I going to
have a long sincere talk when my landing mechanism sinks into your trench after
you leave.

The closest slight slope to Oshkosh is in Iowa.


Jim


Jeffrey Voight >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Wet can be 'solved' by ensuring that your tent is set up on a slight
->slope and digging a trench around the tent to channel the water around
->it rather than under it.



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jeffrey Voight wrote:
>
> Wet can be 'solved' by ensuring that your tent is set up on a slight
> slope and digging a trench around the tent to channel the water around
> it rather than under it. On the high slope side, make sure that the
> channel is very close to the edge of the tent so that you don't pick up
> too much water. The trench on the low side should be continued further
> than the tent so that you don't cause the gutters to dump water right in
> front of your door. Oh, and make the door side on the down slope so
> that you have a 'dry' spot on which to step (extend the trench past
> where you want to step).

None of this can be done at Oshkosh.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[EDR]

In article >, Jim Weir
> wrote:

> The closest slight slope to Oshkosh is in Iowa.

Something to do with glaciers awhile back, wasn't it?

[Morgans]

"Jeffrey Voight" > wrote

> Wool keeps you warm even when wet (must be somebody else's definition of
> warm 'cuz it sure doesn't work for me [but a nice .5mm semi-dry suit
> might do a decent job]).
>
> Jeff...


WARM is definitely NOT a problem at Air Venture.
--
Jim in NC

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jeffrey Voight wrote:
>
> I had the impression that the place is giant and not well-populated.

Right now, you're correct. During "Airventure", it's about as sparsely populated
as Harlem.

> Do they let ya'll set up tents willynilly inside the field?

No. You camp beside your plane. The spacing is about the same as T-hangars with
no walls.

> I kinda thought they'd put you out in a field somewhere meant for camping.

Nope.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Jay Honeck]

> > The closest slight slope to Oshkosh is in Iowa.
>
> Something to do with glaciers awhile back, wasn't it?

Actually, the Kettle Moraine area of Wisconsin -- the area most heavily
glaciated -- is extremely hilly, bordering on mountainous in some areas.

Something to with glaciers bulldozing huge piles of rubble into gigantic
piles.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, then, a revision: Bring yer clotheline 'cuz yer gettin' wet.

Actually, a good tent, properly staked, won't leak or blow down under normal
conditions. The wind that wiped out our tent at OSH '03 was a real freak
thing, something I've never seen before in 30+ years of tent camping.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> WARM is definitely NOT a problem at Air Venture.

Two years ago we were cold at OSH on a couple of nights. We had to actually
go BUY jackets and sweaters, cuz we didn't pack any.

Only time this has happened in 21 years of attending Oshkosh, though...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Morgans" > wrote in message ...
\>
> WARM is definitely NOT a problem at Air Venture.

I've had 100+ weather at Airventure and weather where I need to
wear a coat. The only predictable thing is the mosquitoes.

[EDR]

In article <_cMHb.688438$Fm2.595114@attbi_s04>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> Actually, a good tent, properly staked, won't leak or blow down under normal
> conditions. The wind that wiped out our tent at OSH '03 was a real freak
> thing, something I've never seen before in 30+ years of tent camping.

And then there are the idiots that "power" their airplanes out of their
camping spot at 6 AM for that "early morning" departure.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:44:23 -0500, Morgans wrote:

> WARM is definitely NOT a problem at Air Venture.

The nights do get cold don't they? This last time I wished I had a heater
of sorts, the blanket I had just didn't cut it for me.

I do remember a couple years back I was hoping for cold weather, then I
was hoping for warm weather. I wonder if WI. has a moderate climate or if
it's just hot/cold.

In any event, digging trenches has been out of favor for many years now
and there are other ways to deal with this problem besides digging a
trench that Jim's going to run into with his plane. Mostly you watch
where you decide to camp.

[Jim Weir]

Wisconsin has two seasons ... shoveling and swatting.

Jim


->I do remember a couple years back I was hoping for cold weather, then I
->was hoping for warm weather. I wonder if WI. has a moderate climate or if
->it's just hot/cold.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Ron Natalie]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message ...
>
> Wisconsin has two seasons ... shoveling and swatting.
>
> Jim

It has four seasons, three of them are called winter.

[Jay Honeck]

> It has four seasons, three of them are called winter.

No, it's ALL winter -- with three months of bad skiing...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:3sEIb.22700$xX.81630@attbi_s02...
> > It has four seasons, three of them are called winter.
>
> No, it's ALL winter -- with three months of bad skiing...
>
No good skiing in Wisconsin regardless of the season.

[Jay Honeck]

> > No, it's ALL winter -- with three months of bad skiing...
> >
> No good skiing in Wisconsin regardless of the season.

Actually, there are many excellent cross-country ski trails throughout the
state.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article <ucFIb.698244$HS4.4999640@attbi_s01>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> > > No, it's ALL winter -- with three months of bad skiing...
> > >
> > No good skiing in Wisconsin regardless of the season.
>
> Actually, there are many excellent cross-country ski trails throughout the
> state.

I thought you were going to say something like, "The skiing in
Wisconsin is all downhill until you get to Iowa." :-))

[Jay Honeck]

> I thought you were going to say something like, "The skiing in
> Wisconsin is all downhill until you get to Iowa." :-))

We've only been able to go cross-country skiing here once since moving to
Iowa in '97. The winters have simply been too erratic for the DNR to groom
the trails. (Although actually the same thing has been happening in
Wisconsin. In the 80s we could count on a foot or more of snow on the
trails throughout the winter. Not anymore.)

That, and spring comes about 2 weeks earlier here than in WI.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"