Piloting a Cessna & owning

[Eastward Bound]

Hi people I need some help.

Airplanes are not my forte. Automobiles I know a lot about but I know
about as much about airplanes as I do about trains and so my knowledge
is very limited.

I do know that a Cessna can be had for the price of a BMW which is not
bad, not bad at all. Some even have turbochargers on them and you
have your choice of fixed gear or those water floats to land in water.

I had a dream that I had condos in Maine and West Virginia but owned
land in Alaska. I had my very own cessna which made it possible for
me to gain access to all of these places and I was very happy.

What are the true costs of owning your own airplane? How risky is the
flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska? How about from LA,CA to
Maine?

Don't Turbochargers shorten the life span of the Engine? Is it noisy
inside the cockpit of a cessna?

Approx how long is the flight training to get your license to fly one
of these?

[Larry Dighera]

On 19 Dec 2003 23:15:53 -0800, (Eastward
Bound) wrote in Message-Id:
>:


>What are the true costs of owning your own airplane?

It depends on the location where it is based. Figure ~$70.00/ hour
given ~200 hours of use per year.

>How risky is the flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska?

Probably about as risky as automobile travel along that route.

>How about from LA,CA to Maine?

Considerably less risk than Alaska depending on the season of the
year.

>Don't Turbochargers shorten the life span of the Engine?

Not appreciably, but they provide their own additional potential
points of failure.

>Is it noisy inside the cockpit of a cessna?

Yes. It's so noisy, that hearing protection is standard equipment.
Headsets with electronic active noise reduction circuitry provide a
very comfortably quiet environment.

>Approx how long is the flight training to get your license to fly one
>of these?

An average student will obtain his/her airman's certificate in 50 to
60 hours at a rough cost of ~$130.00/hour. The Sallie Mae loan
program can be used to fund your instruction:
http://learntofly.com/faq.chtml#13

It's difficult to estimate how much piloting experience will be
required before a newly certificated private pilot will be competent
to travel between Main and Alaska, but I would expect ~100 hours
minimum.

Purchase a copy of an aviation magazine at a newsstand to get more
information: http://www.flyingmag.com/
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/
http://www.privatepilotmag.com/
http://www.aopa.org/pilot/


If it looks like something you desire and you feel you possess the
potential for accomplishing it, take a $50 demo flight. You'll be
hooked. :-)

Here's the first step:
http://www.beapilot.com/indexfl.html
http://www.beapilot.com/hotlist/index.html
http://learntofly.com/
http://learntofly.com/faq.chtml
http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/

Aircraft information:
http://www.newpiper.com/faqs/index.asp
http://www.raytheonaircraft.com/beechcraft/bonanza/bonanza_a36.htm
http://www.commanderair.com/index.html

[Dan Luke]

"Eastward Bound" wrote:
> What are the true costs of owning your own airplane?

For a decent Cessna 172 that costs what a BMW costs (say, $50,000),
figure $60-$80/hr based on 100 hrs/yr.

> How risky is the flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska? How
about from
> LA,CA to Maine?

The fatal accident rate for personal flying is at least seven times
higher than the rate for driving. Your personal skill and judgement have
some influence on your individual risk.

> Don't Turbochargers shorten the life span of the Engine?

It seems so. Careful operation and maintenance are more critical with a
turbo'd engine.

> Is it noisy inside the cockpit of a cessna?

About a hundred db in mine. Noise-canceling headsets take care of that.

> Approx how long is the flight training to get your license to fly one
> of these?

Takes about 4-8 months and 50-70 flight hours for most people.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

"Larry Dighera" wrote:

> >How risky is the flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska?
>
> Probably about as risky as automobile travel along that route.

Larrreeee! You're kidding, right?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[C J Campbell]

"Eastward Bound" > wrote in message
om...
|
| What are the true costs of owning your own airplane? How risky is the
| flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska? How about from LA,CA to
| Maine?
|

We will assume an airplane such as the Cessna 182 Skylane as an example.
There are both variable and fixed costs. Variable costs are those that can
be directly related to an hour of flight, such as fuel, oil, some kinds of
inspections, maintenance, and a reserve for overhauls of engine and
propeller. These variable costs for the Skylane are usually between $35 and
$45 an hour, depending on such things as how you fly, how old your airplane
is, etc. The turbocharger increases your variable costs significantly and
reduces the payload of your airplane.

Fixed costs are items such as insurance, parking, and annual inspections.
You can figure on between $2,000 and $3,000 a year for insurance, between
$45 and $500 a month for parking depending on whether you hangar or leave it
outside, and about $2,000 a year for inspections. Acquisition costs are
limited to your loan costs. The terms of aircraft loans are similar to those
for buying a house, but you may need a larger down payment. Older aircraft
don't depreciate much and may even increase in value over time. New
airplanes typically lose about 10% in value per year for the first three to
five years.

Add in the costs of recurrent training, aircraft publications, charts,
flying clothing, miscellaneous fees, etc., and you can count on another
couple thousand dollars per year. Aviation is the Barbie doll of hobbies.
You always need more accessories.

The risk of flying a small aircraft is directly proportional to the time
spent in the air. Overall, flying a small plane is about as risky as riding
a motorcycle. The difference between a small plane and a motorcycle is that
motorcycle riders are largely dependent on the driving skills of others
while around 90% of all airplane accidents are caused by the pilot. As a
pilot, you choose your own level of risk. Flying at night and in bad weather
increases that risk. Flying over mountains or long distances over water
increase the risk as well. Flying low, low level maneuvering such as buzzing
your friend's house, flying when you are sick or tired, flying because you
have to get there even when you know you should not fly, etc. all increase
your risk.

| Don't Turbochargers shorten the life span of the Engine?

It depends a little on the turbocharger and how you fly.

Is it noisy
| inside the cockpit of a cessna?
|

Yes, very noisy. Wear a good headset and it will not bother you.

| Approx how long is the flight training to get your license to fly one
| of these?

You can figure it will take you between 40 and 60 hours of training and this
usually takes people anywhere between six months to a year.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:54:04 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>"Larry Dighera" wrote:
>
>> >How risky is the flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska?
>>
>> Probably about as risky as automobile travel along that route.
>
>Larrreeee! You're kidding, right?

Have you driven the Alcan Highway?

[Dan Luke]

"Larry Dighera" wrote:
> Have you driven the Alcan Highway?

No. It must have a prodigious accident rate.

[Free]

I fly my Skylane around 50 hrs/yr. Fuel, oil, hangar, annual, and
maintenance run around $4500/yr. That is $90/hr.

You need your own numbers for insurance, loan payments.

Setting aside reserves for prop overhaul ($1500est), engine overhaul
($15-$18,000est) and/or, paint and interior ($12,000est).

This works out to be about $11,000/year plus reserves to own your airplane.
Of course, you need to buy the airplane right. Expect to need some $$$ no
matter how pristine the airplane is ;)

Kevin
"Eastward Bound" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi people I need some help.
>
> Airplanes are not my forte. Automobiles I know a lot about but I know
> about as much about airplanes as I do about trains and so my knowledge
> is very limited.
>
> I do know that a Cessna can be had for the price of a BMW which is not
> bad, not bad at all. Some even have turbochargers on them and you
> have your choice of fixed gear or those water floats to land in water.
>
> I had a dream that I had condos in Maine and West Virginia but owned
> land in Alaska. I had my very own cessna which made it possible for
> me to gain access to all of these places and I was very happy.
>
> What are the true costs of owning your own airplane? How risky is the
> flight from Maine or West Virginia to Alaska? How about from LA,CA to
> Maine?
>
> Don't Turbochargers shorten the life span of the Engine? Is it noisy
> inside the cockpit of a cessna?
>
> Approx how long is the flight training to get your license to fly one
> of these?

[Peter R.]

C J Campbell ) wrote:

> The risk of flying a small aircraft is directly proportional
> to the time spent in the air.

Huh. I figured the risk would be inversely proportional to the time spent
in the air.

The less time in the air, the less proficient a pilot is and therefore the
greater the risk.

--
Peter












----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[lance smith]

That much for a turbine? Expensive dreams : )

-lance smith


tony roberts > wrote in message news:<nospam-B75342.17572020122003@shawnews>...
> > I had a dream that I had condos in Maine and West Virginia but owned
> > land in Alaska. I had my very own cessna which made it possible for
> > me to gain access to all of these places and I was very happy.
> >
> > What are the true costs of owning your own airplane?
>
> In my dream it's about $5.00 per hour :)

[Michael]

Peter R. > wrote
> C J Campbell ) wrote:
> > The risk of flying a small aircraft is directly proportional
> > to the time spent in the air.
>
> Huh. I figured the risk would be inversely proportional to the time spent
> in the air.
>
> The less time in the air, the less proficient a pilot is and therefore the
> greater the risk.

Insurance companies seem to agree with you on this. There isn't a
single aviation insurer out there that will give you a premium break
for flying fewer hours, but most will give you a break for flying more
hours.

Michael

[Andrew Gideon]

Michael wrote:

> Insurance companies seem to agree with you on this. There isn't a
> single aviation insurer out there that will give you a premium break
> for flying fewer hours, but most will give you a break for flying more
> hours.

For what type of insurance?

I've a private cert (with instrument rating). I plan to upgrade to
commercial in the future. My life insurance agent, though, thought that
this would adversely impact my life insurance.

More, he seemed to have difficulty getting me the insurance increase
(appropriate now that I'm a parent) I wanted because I was a pilot. He'd
no similar difficulty for my wife.

I'm wondering if this is typical, or if I should be shopping elsewhere.

- Andrew

[Michael]

Andrew Gideon > wrote
> For what type of insurance?

Aircraft liability and hull, of course.

Obviously when I speak about increased proficiency offsetting
increased exposure, there are limits on both ends.

For example, if one is going to fly less than 5 hours a year or so, I
would argue that less is better - there is no proficiency to speak of,
so minimizing exposure is best. By the same token, if one is going to
fly more than 250 hours a year or so, there is no extra proficiency to
be gained. The extra time merely increases exposure.

In general, an aircraft owner is going to fly more than 5 but fewer
than 250 hours a year. There are exceptions, but they are few and far
between.

My insurance company won't even cover you in a PA-30 if you haven't
logged 80+ hours in make and model in the past year. Others will -
but at much higher prices. Many people I know get lower rates for
flying more than 100 hours a year. However, I have yet to see a break
past that point. Nobody I know will give you an additional discount
for 200, or 500. Clearly there is a crossowver point where increased
exposure to risks largely beyond the pilot's control offsets the risk
reduction through increased proficiency.

There is no increased premium for those flying over 500 hours a year,
but I strongly suspect this is only because there are not enough
people with that kind of utilization on a personal airplane.

Commercially employed pilots typically fly 500+ hours a year. At that
point, the increased proficiency seems to be offset by increased
exposure. Being a commercial pilot is one of the most hazardous
occupations out there.

> I've a private cert (with instrument rating). I plan to upgrade to
> commercial in the future. My life insurance agent, though, thought that
> this would adversely impact my life insurance.

I suspect that once he understands that you are only going to have the
rating, and are not actually going to fly commercially, this may not
be a problem.

> More, he seemed to have difficulty getting me the insurance increase
> (appropriate now that I'm a parent) I wanted because I was a pilot. He'd
> no similar difficulty for my wife.

Certainly. Being a pilot is going to mean SOME increased risk
regardless of how proficienct you are.

> I'm wondering if this is typical, or if I should be shopping elsewhere.

It's typical enough, but there are a few companies that claim to offer
their best rates to pilots. No experience with them - I have no life
insurance at all.

Michael

[Andrew Gideon]

Michael wrote:

>> I've a private cert (with instrument rating). I plan to upgrade to
>> commercial in the future. My life insurance agent, though, thought that
>> this would adversely impact my life insurance.
>
> I suspect that once he understands that you are only going to have the
> rating, and are not actually going to fly commercially, this may not
> be a problem.

He understood, but seemed to feel that the message would not make it into
the insurance company's "process".

[...]
>> I'm wondering if this is typical, or if I should be shopping elsewhere.
>
> It's typical enough, but there are a few companies that claim to offer
> their best rates to pilots. No experience with them - I have no life
> insurance at all.

Ah, so you're worth more alive than dead. I get a little nervous with the
reverse situation <laugh>.

- Andrew

[Michael]

Andrew Gideon > wrote
> > I suspect that once he understands that you are only going to have the
> > rating, and are not actually going to fly commercially, this may not
> > be a problem.
>
> He understood, but seemed to feel that the message would not make it into
> the insurance company's "process".

Now that is a reason to consider another insurer - one that is
smaller, or at least 'act' smaller by putting more discretion in the
hands of the guy on the scene.

> Ah, so you're worth more alive than dead. I get a little nervous with the
> reverse situation <laugh>.

Well, I have special circumstances. No dependents, no debts, and
plenty of net worth to cover my funeral and throw one hell of a party.

Michael