What's a CARF?

[Tony Cox]

Here's something I've never seen in a DUATS
briefing before. Can someone enlighten me?

Oakland Center (Fremont CA) [ZOA]: December NOTAM #105 issued by Central
Alt Res Fac CA [CARF]
Central Altitude Reservation Facility notice number 1275 on Bravo
stationary reservation within an area bounded by 4040N 12710W 4040N 13200W
3730N 13200W 3730N 12710W. surface - FL200 will be effective December 22nd,
2003 at 12:30 PM PST (0312222030) - December 22nd, 2003 at 03:30 PM PST
(0312222330)

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> Here's something I've never seen in a DUATS
> briefing before. Can someone enlighten me?
>
> Oakland Center (Fremont CA) [ZOA]: December NOTAM #105 issued by Central
> Alt Res Fac CA [CARF]
> Central Altitude Reservation Facility notice number 1275 on Bravo
> stationary reservation within an area bounded by 4040N 12710W 4040N 13200W
> 3730N 13200W 3730N 12710W. surface - FL200 will be effective December
22nd,
> 2003 at 12:30 PM PST (0312222030) - December 22nd, 2003 at 03:30 PM PST
> (0312222330)
>

CARF is Central Altitude Reservation Facility, they set up ALTRVs, Altitude
Reservations. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:
ALTITUDE RESERVATION- Airspace utilization under prescribed conditions
normally employed for the mass movement of aircraft or other special user
requirements which cannot otherwise be accomplished. ALTRVs are approved by
the appropriate FAA facility.

It doesn't say it in that explanation, but the aircraft referred to are
military aircraft. At least every ALTRV I've seen was for military
aircraft, I suppose they could also be used for civil aircraft under
military contract.

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> . net...
> >
> > Here's something I've never seen in a DUATS
> > briefing before. Can someone enlighten me?
> >
> > Oakland Center (Fremont CA) [ZOA]: December NOTAM #105 issued by
Central
> > Alt Res Fac CA [CARF]
> > Central Altitude Reservation Facility notice number 1275 on Bravo
> > stationary reservation within an area bounded by 4040N 12710W 4040N
13200W
> > 3730N 13200W 3730N 12710W. surface - FL200 will be effective December
> 22nd,
> > 2003 at 12:30 PM PST (0312222030) - December 22nd, 2003 at 03:30 PM PST
> > (0312222330)
> >
>
> CARF is Central Altitude Reservation Facility, they set up ALTRVs,
Altitude
> Reservations. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:
> ALTITUDE RESERVATION- Airspace utilization under prescribed conditions
> normally employed for the mass movement of aircraft or other special user
> requirements which cannot otherwise be accomplished. ALTRVs are approved
by
> the appropriate FAA facility.
>
> It doesn't say it in that explanation, but the aircraft referred to are
> military aircraft. At least every ALTRV I've seen was for military
> aircraft, I suppose they could also be used for civil aircraft under
> military contract.
>


So what the NOTAM is saying, then, is that I should look
out for a swarm of aircraft between the surface and 20,000'
over an area of some 40,000 sq. miles for 3 hours.

Sounds pretty serious. Think I'll stay on the ground.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> So what the NOTAM is saying, then, is that I should look
> out for a swarm of aircraft between the surface and 20,000'
> over an area of some 40,000 sq. miles for 3 hours.
>
> Sounds pretty serious. Think I'll stay on the ground.
>

Whatever you think is best. What would have caused you to fly that far off
the coast anyway? Do you run some kind of fish-spotting business?

[BTIZ]

looked to me like it was way out over the north pacific also.. you don't
need charts to figure that out... must be some type of Navy exercise with
some gunnery going also..

BT

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > So what the NOTAM is saying, then, is that I should look
> > out for a swarm of aircraft between the surface and 20,000'
> > over an area of some 40,000 sq. miles for 3 hours.
> >
> > Sounds pretty serious. Think I'll stay on the ground.
> >
>
> Whatever you think is best. What would have caused you to fly that far
off
> the coast anyway? Do you run some kind of fish-spotting business?
>
>

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > So what the NOTAM is saying, then, is that I should look
> > out for a swarm of aircraft between the surface and 20,000'
> > over an area of some 40,000 sq. miles for 3 hours.
> >
> > Sounds pretty serious. Think I'll stay on the ground.
> >
>
> Whatever you think is best. What would have caused you to fly that far
off
> the coast anyway? Do you run some kind of fish-spotting business?
>

Hah! More fool me for thinking the NOTAM was
relevant! I got that asking for a briefing from Las Vegas
to Death Valley, without asking for flow control or
non-associated FDC NOTAMS.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:7JkFb.36409$m83.27317@fed1read01...
>
> looked to me like it was way out over the north pacific also.. you don't
> need charts to figure that out... must be some type of Navy exercise with
> some gunnery going also..
>

I'm just eyeballing it, but I'd say it's at least 100 miles off the northern
California Coast at its closest point. Since it only extends up to FL 200
it's not going to affect many civil aircraft, if any.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> Hah! More fool me for thinking the NOTAM was
> relevant! I got that asking for a briefing from Las Vegas
> to Death Valley, without asking for flow control or
> non-associated FDC NOTAMS.
>

Seems like the briefer is a bit weak on latitude and longitude.

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > Hah! More fool me for thinking the NOTAM was
> > relevant! I got that asking for a briefing from Las Vegas
> > to Death Valley, without asking for flow control or
> > non-associated FDC NOTAMS.
> >
>
> Seems like the briefer is a bit weak on latitude and longitude.
>

Not really. It was DUATS from the web. And I should have
realized that the lat/long made it irrelevant.

Shouldn't they just establish a "Warning" area instead of this
obscure CARF thinggy?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> Not really. It was DUATS from the web. And I should have
> realized that the lat/long made it irrelevant.
>

Oh? Is that normal for DUATS? Does it always provide NOTAMs nowhere near
your route of flight?


>
> Shouldn't they just establish a "Warning" area instead of this
> obscure CARF thinggy?
>

Warning Areas are charted, but this area appears to be off the charts. The
charts that are normally used by civil pilots anyway.

[BTIZ]

it does unless you specify not to...

BT

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
link.net...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > >
> > > Hah! More fool me for thinking the NOTAM was
> > > relevant! I got that asking for a briefing from Las Vegas
> > > to Death Valley, without asking for flow control or
> > > non-associated FDC NOTAMS.
> > >
> >
> > Seems like the briefer is a bit weak on latitude and longitude.
> >
>
> Not really. It was DUATS from the web. And I should have
> realized that the lat/long made it irrelevant.
>
> Shouldn't they just establish a "Warning" area instead of this
> obscure CARF thinggy?
>
>

[EDR]

In article >, Tony Cox
> wrote:

> Here's something I've never seen in a DUATS
> briefing before. Can someone enlighten me?
>
> Oakland Center (Fremont CA) [ZOA]: December NOTAM #105 issued by Central
> Alt Res Fac CA [CARF]
> Central Altitude Reservation Facility notice number 1275 on Bravo
> stationary reservation within an area bounded by 4040N 12710W 4040N 13200W
> 3730N 13200W 3730N 12710W. surface - FL200 will be effective December 22nd,
> 2003 at 12:30 PM PST (0312222030) - December 22nd, 2003 at 03:30 PM PST
> (0312222330)

I don't have a map of that area, is that Vandenberg?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:J_lFb.36418$m83.33648@fed1read01...
>
> it does unless you specify not to...
>

You mean you receive either every damn NOTAM in the country or none at all?
Sounds pretty inefficient.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't have a map of that area, is that Vandenberg?
>

It's the Pacific Ocean.

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > Not really. It was DUATS from the web. And I should have
> > realized that the lat/long made it irrelevant.
> >
>
> Oh? Is that normal for DUATS? Does it always provide NOTAMs nowhere near
> your route of flight?
>

Well, it generally tells me about things that I suppose
could _conceivably_ be relevant. I always get the
"Micky Mouse" NOTAM in LA for example (some
150 miles off). Anything further than that normally
only turns up when I select the "non-associated FDC
NOTAM's" box, which in this case I didn't.

>
> >
> > Shouldn't they just establish a "Warning" area instead of this
> > obscure CARF thinggy?
> >
>
> Warning Areas are charted, but this area appears to be off the charts.
The
> charts that are normally used by civil pilots anyway.
>

Well, temporary Warning area then. As a flight planner,
I'm not really sure what precautions I'm supposed to take
when I'm informed that some "Central Facility" is reserving
altitudes.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> Well, temporary Warning area then.
>

That wouldn't fit the definition of Warning Area in the Pilot/Controller
Glossary:

"A warning area is airspace of defined dimensions extending from 3 nautical
miles outward from the coast of the United States, that contains activity
that may be hazardous to nonparticipating aircraft. The purpose of such
warning area is to warn nonparticipating pilots of the potential danger. A
warning area may be located over domestic or international waters or both."


>
> As a flight planner,
> I'm not really sure what precautions I'm supposed to take
> when I'm informed that some "Central Facility" is reserving
> altitudes.
>

Well, if you're among the piston-only crowd as most of us are, I think
you're very unlikely to encounter an ALTRV. I've never heard of one over
land that was not in Class A airspace, and all of those that were at low
altitudes were far out to sea.

[BTIZ]

I save the text and then delete what I don't want... turns 20 pages into
about 7.

Prints faster that way..

BT

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
> >
> > Oh? Is that normal for DUATS? Does it always provide NOTAMs nowhere
near
> > your route of flight?
>
> When I use DUATS, it provides me with everything in the entire region
through
> which I intend to fly. If I plan a flight from New Jersey to Tennessee,
for example,
> I will get every caution from Maine to Florida.
>
> As a result, I long ago quit using DUATS for planning such a trip. It
would take
> an hour and a half to print the whole thing out, if I were so stupid as to
try
> it again (I did once).
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[BTIZ]

> Well, if you're among the piston-only crowd as most of us are, I think
> you're very unlikely to encounter an ALTRV. I've never heard of one over
> land that was not in Class A airspace, and all of those that were at low
> altitudes were far out to sea.
>

except for the initial departure, climb corridors, and arrival tracks.. that
were part of all of my ALTRVs... well.. actually I guess that was part of
the IFR clearance.. with a control time at the "start ALTRV" point at
altitude.. once in the ALTRV, and on time, ATC no longer assumes
responsibility for separation within the ALTRV (MARSA).. ATC only keeps
those not on the ALTRV clear..

but that was oh so long ago... LOL
BT

[Newps]

BTIZ wrote:


>
> except for the initial departure, climb corridors, and arrival tracks.. that
> were part of all of my ALTRVs... well.. actually I guess that was part of
> the IFR clearance.. with a control time at the "start ALTRV" point at
> altitude.. once in the ALTRV, and on time, ATC no longer assumes
> responsibility for separation within the ALTRV (MARSA).. ATC only keeps
> those not on the ALTRV clear..

We see ALTRV all the time. B-1's and B-52's circle BIL all the time at
about 40 miles out at 25 AGL. We have to make sure aircraft are above
the bombers at 37 DME from the VOR, which isn't a problem because nobody
is ever that low that far from us. But we get traffic count to keep the
pay up.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> Oh? Is that normal for DUATS? Does it always provide NOTAMs nowhere near
> your route of flight?

When I use DUATS, it provides me with everything in the entire region through
which I intend to fly. If I plan a flight from New Jersey to Tennessee, for example,
I will get every caution from Maine to Florida.

As a result, I long ago quit using DUATS for planning such a trip. It would take
an hour and a half to print the whole thing out, if I were so stupid as to try
it again (I did once).

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[BTIZ]

well... I've been there.. Sounds like your "ALTRV" is the low level route?

Now you know what I used to fly..

BT

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:PAuFb.174871$_M.798834@attbi_s54...
>
>
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>
> >
> > except for the initial departure, climb corridors, and arrival tracks..
that
> > were part of all of my ALTRVs... well.. actually I guess that was part
of
> > the IFR clearance.. with a control time at the "start ALTRV" point at
> > altitude.. once in the ALTRV, and on time, ATC no longer assumes
> > responsibility for separation within the ALTRV (MARSA).. ATC only keeps
> > those not on the ALTRV clear..
>
> We see ALTRV all the time. B-1's and B-52's circle BIL all the time at
> about 40 miles out at 25 AGL. We have to make sure aircraft are above
> the bombers at 37 DME from the VOR, which isn't a problem because nobody
> is ever that low that far from us. But we get traffic count to keep the
> pay up.
>

[Tony Cox]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:qJtFb.36525$m83.9369@fed1read01...
> > Well, if you're among the piston-only crowd as most of us are, I think
> > you're very unlikely to encounter an ALTRV. I've never heard of one
over
> > land that was not in Class A airspace, and all of those that were at low
> > altitudes were far out to sea.
> >
>
> except for the initial departure, climb corridors, and arrival tracks..
that
> were part of all of my ALTRVs... well.. actually I guess that was part of
> the IFR clearance.. with a control time at the "start ALTRV" point at
> altitude.. once in the ALTRV, and on time, ATC no longer assumes
> responsibility for separation within the ALTRV (MARSA).. ATC only keeps
> those not on the ALTRV clear..
>
> but that was oh so long ago... LOL
> BT
>
>

I'm a pretty conscientious fellow & have almost finished my IFR
training, but I've *never* heard of a CARF or come across
an ALTRV. Looks like there was something missing in my
training and/or my study.

So what am I supposed to *do* with this information? Does it
just mean that I, planning an IFR flight, should avoid filing
route segments that intrude on this volume? Does it have any
significance for me planning a VFR flight?

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> So what am I supposed to *do* with this information? Does it
> just mean that I, planning an IFR flight, should avoid filing
> route segments that intrude on this volume? Does it have any
> significance for me planning a VFR flight?
>

There's really nothing for you to do with it. ATC will provide standard
separation between you and aircraft on an ALTRV. They'll do that by moving
you if need be, not the aircraft on the ALTRV.

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > So what am I supposed to *do* with this information? Does it
> > just mean that I, planning an IFR flight, should avoid filing
> > route segments that intrude on this volume? Does it have any
> > significance for me planning a VFR flight?
> >
>
> There's really nothing for you to do with it. ATC will provide standard
> separation between you and aircraft on an ALTRV. They'll do that by
moving
> you if need be, not the aircraft on the ALTRV.
>

Which implies that I must be in contact with ATC if
I'm VFR. Is that the significance?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Which implies that I must be in contact with ATC if
> I'm VFR. Is that the significance?
>

No. ATC will provide STANDARD separation between you and aircraft on an
ALTRV. ATC does not provide separation for VFR aircraft in airspace that
does not require radio contact with ATC.

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > Which implies that I must be in contact with ATC if
> > I'm VFR. Is that the significance?
> >
>
> No. ATC will provide STANDARD separation between you and aircraft on an
> ALTRV. ATC does not provide separation for VFR aircraft in airspace that
> does not require radio contact with ATC.
>

So a CARF has no significance whatsoever, regardless
of whether I'm planning a VFR or an IFR flight. Which
of course begs the question: Why report a CARF on
a preflight briefing in the first place?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> So a CARF has no significance whatsoever, regardless
> of whether I'm planning a VFR or an IFR flight. Which
> of course begs the question: Why report a CARF on
> a preflight briefing in the first place?
>

I suppose it's because we live in a litigious society.